UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: andy moles on August 27, 2021, 09:44:35 am
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A comment from Neil Gresham on Insta:
We are seeing the demonisation of bold trad climbing at present
Are we? My impression is that bold trad is not popular, and doesn't have the same cachet it once did compared to other types of climbing, but I can't say I've seen it 'demonised' in a way that would draw such an observation.
I posted a reply asking where he's coming from, but don't imagine I'll get a response - is this a view the cognoscenti of UKB would agree with, and if so where is it coming from?
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Where does he say that? Can’t see the post.
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It's a comment on Dave MacLeod's latest post about If 6 Was 9.
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Demonisation is a strong word. There maybe be a waning in popularity, but it comes and goes.
A lot of activity on Dubh Loch, Shelterstone & Sky Wall over the summer for example.
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Odd. There’s no context for that. The British climbing public generally reveres bold trad climbing. Look at the near deification of Johnny, for example.
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I wouldn't say there was a movement to demonise bold trad, but I have noticed a general shift among climbers towards critiquing bold trad ascents rather than unquestioningly applauding. Up to a point I view this as a good thing, but only up to a point. It would be sad if bold trad became viewed as the preserve of the reckless/nihilistic/stupid.
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I don't think it's demonised at all. I do think it is dying off in popularity though. But then was it ever really that popular?
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But then was it ever really that popular?
Yes. Bold trad was pretty much the only form of climbing for the first 100 years of the sport's history.
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Even since the advent of alternative climbing forms, its popularity has waxed and waned.
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I wouldn't say there was a movement to demonise bold trad, but I have noticed a general shift among climbers towards critiquing bold trad ascents rather than unquestioningly applauding. Up to a point I view this as a good thing, but only up to a point. It would be sad if bold trad became viewed as the preserve of the reckless/nihilistic/stupid.
I guess maybe there’s more of a public forum for the critique these days? I would assume that back in the day there would still be quite robust criticism over a pint of someone who’s ascent was viewed as reckless rather calculated, but would be interesting to hear how it was pre internet peanut gallery!
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Internet peanut gallery is at least 20 years old now?
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Sounds so far like not much to see here. Maybe the Gresh is just being melodramatic on the back of a couple of Youtube comments.
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You'd swear the way he goes on he was seeking attention.
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Sounds so far like not much to see here. Maybe the Gresh is just being melodramatic on the back of a couple of Youtube comments.
Surely not!
Isn’t he some sort of omnipotent climbing demi-god and divine arbiter?
Pretty sure that’s what he said he is, so he must be.
Anyway, bold trad has always attracted a proportionately similar degree of criticism as soloing and a similarly small set of participants. To me it’s always been an exercise in stating the obvious, essentially boiling down to “He/She is gonna get killed/hurt, if they fall”. To which the only reasonable response is “no shit, Sherlock. In other news, the sun will set on the equator tonight and there will be a period of relative darkness before dawn tomorrow”; or similar.
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Well I thought I'd run it by committee before casting such aspersions.
Demonisation promised a good read.
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Anyway, bold trad has always attracted a proportionately similar degree of criticism as soloing
I'm far too out of touch to have any real clue about current attitudes, but I remember reading something in the last couple of years, I think on a UKC thread, that was disapproving of soloing in a way that I'd never seen before: basically that it had no legitimate place in the roster of climbing types and shouldn't be practiced. The post was really censorious. When I started (jumpers for goalposts etc.) it was pretty much an integral part of climbing, something many/most climbers did in some form or another. I think I first soloed something - a Severe on the Sea Walls at Avon - on my third day out.
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I read "The demonetisation of bold trad".
Anyway, has there been a bolder ascent than the free solo of El Cap? The monetisation of that maybe did not work as well as we think, considering that Honnhold has become a care salesman.
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I think there will always be some facet of climbing which is attractive to some and repulsive to others. In the old days when every climb could kill there were climbs which were considered "unjustifiable" and it was considered good form not to record them. There were arguments then and there probably still will be in the future whatever the safety landscape looks like.
What about the demonisation of climbing in general as an extreme sport? I'm curious about how those with kids getting into climbing see the participation statement these days? No such thing exists for football, rugby and other sports (or getting on the school bus) and yet the risks are not dissimilar.
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I think there will always be some facet of climbing which is attractive to some and repulsive to others. In the old days when every climb could kill there were climbs which were considered "unjustifiable" and it was considered good form not to record them. There were arguments then and there probably still will be in the future whatever the safety landscape looks like.
What about the demonisation of climbing in general as an extreme sport? I'm curious about how those with kids getting into climbing see the participation statement these days? No such thing exists for football, rugby and other sports (or getting on the school bus) and yet the risks are not dissimilar.
Life is risk.
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I’m sure in Gresham’s world of training kids, coaching rich Londoners towards redpointing Raindogs and writing articles about fingerboarding and how great the Olympics is for “our sport”, bold trad feels demonised, but in my world of going trad climbing at least twice a week and not having been to the wall since before the first lockdown it’s as cool as it’s ever been ;).
Seriously though, the comment’s probably at least partly inspired by all the stick Franco (the Jack Grealish of British climbing) has got over the years and possibly also the sort of “get down from there” comments that Anna Taylor attracts. If you look back all the bold trad firebrands like Dawes, Woodward, Dixon, Dunne etc. who’ve come to be deiefied started out being slagged from all corners for supposedly lying, not giving stuff the right grade, being too bold, not being bold enough etc. first. It just kind of comes with the punk rock world of doing necky trad routes I guess.
In terms of whether it’s getting done much, high-profile bold trad mainly gets done by people who’ve yet to get too old/ responsible/ wise/ injured to rein it in a bit (as Andy says, bold trad was the only type of climbing for a century- a period during which it was normal to quit altogether when you got married) so if young people are more into the training/ coaches/ bouldering/ comps/ sport side of things than the trad/ fellwalking/ bivying/ wearing a fleece with all sheep shit trampled into it one then bold trad is going to be happening less and less, demonisation or not.
As far as the Internet peanut gallery goes, it’s hardly a new thing but the general “climbing community” demographic over the last few years has definitely changed over the last few years or so to include a lot of people who’ve got into climbing from taking their kids to the wall. If there’s anyone who has an interest in demonising the climbing of E7 6bs it’s them and I guess they now form part of the peanut gallery too. As I said in the first paragraph Gresh is more of an expert on that part of the world than me. ;)
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I remember reading something in the last couple of years, I think on a UKC thread, that was disapproving of soloing in a way that I'd never seen before
Since the first lockdown, I wouldn't be too surprised by any view posted on UKC. Which is not to say views haven't in fact changed, but it's near Youtube level at times as a bottom trawl of opinion.
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Is this the profit of trad. Neil Gresham who insta-ntly blocked me for gently questioning his retrobolting of a classic E5?!
Bold trad. was always frowned-on by normal people. The difference between 1981 and 2021 is that normal people now go climbing.
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Honnhold has become a care salesman.
Great!
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Bold trad. was always frowned-on by normal people. The difference between 1981 and 2021 is that normal people now go climbing.
:lol: :clap2:
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There's different types of bold climbing though aren't there? In MacLeod's insta post (on which Gresh commented) he describes a type of climbing where he believes he can control all the variables given sufficient training and preparation. Contrast this with Franco's latest post where the great line he's found has "...adventure crimping on suspect granite, with terrible gear. It seemed almost entirely tech 6c on snapping holds...".
There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.
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There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.
Let's be honest, choss is shit. Dangerous choss is even shitter.
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Its a nonsense comment but at worst its a bit of hyperbole at best its just that NG doesn't really understand what demonise means. Either way I'm not sure its more of a reaction than starting a new thread on a below the line Insta comment and the subsequent sniping (I mean, "Isn’t he some sort of omnipotent climbing demi-god and divine arbiter? Pretty sure that’s what he said he is, so he must be")
That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?
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I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?
There was one in the significant repeats (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10607.msg643029.html#msg643029) thread yesterday.
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There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.
Let's be honest, choss is shit. Dangerous choss is even shitter.
Surely, all criticism of either “bold trad” (whatever that is, really, because place your gear badly enough and there are some pretty bold HVS’s out there) or Soloing, boils down to the critic saying “I don’t see the point and feel the risk is too great for me and therefore too great for the person performing the act” and is no different from any other similar criticism of any other activity (skateboarding, parkour, BASE, you name it).
When we were developing Technical and Mixed Gas Scuba in the late 1900s early 20s, we were losing people all over. We were constantly slagged off by both the professional (SCUBA instructor) community, Recreational and club divers, Commercial divers etc etc, clubs banned us. Feldman and the Rouse’s died at what, within a few years would be seen as a shallow dive (70msw) and the diving world ramped up the rhetoric, by the time my team dived the U533 (138msw) my mate John Bennet had taken the record to 300msw and a team in the Med had hit the Britannic (120msw). John died within a few months after the U533 and only weeks after we’d dived the MV Energy and Determination together (a mere 84msw on the bottom). Seriously, people were dying in caves, wrecks and even open water, all over the world, developing this stuff.
Now, PADI (🤢🤮)run “Technical Diving” courses. They even gave it a new, trendy, name “Techrec”. So, it’s just another, mainstream-extreme sport and part of the community as a whole.
Pretty sure even recreational diving has a higher fatality/serious injury rate than “climbing as a whole” and every single aspect of/type of climbing and mountaineering was vastly more dangerous in it’s infancy than it is now.
I mean, anybody who began climbing after many, many decades of development, that has seriously mitigated the consequences of falling, is naturally going to have a twisted view of the risks involved and of those who paid highly for the, now, “sport” to be as safe as it is.
It’s all just the meaningless chatter of the critic and the Kudos belongs to the human being in the ring, to paraphrase Rosey.
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In reply to Cheque:
Yes, women’s trad standards have improved massively, it’s hard to gague if the same is true of mens. I forgot to mention Neil Dickson in my previous post who has pushed things a bit
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That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?
Surely sanity precludes the constant 'progress' your comment implies is desirable. I'd ask who this progress is desirable for? The audience (average climbers) or the participant? If the former, a community of generally not very bold people egging a few outliers into performing ever more dangerous acts for the entertainment of the group is somewhat questionable. If the latter, then surely it's wholly personal to the individual, and ascents don't need to be one step bolder than the boldest climb ever in order to be worthwhile. Even if boldness is directly proportional to reward, surely at some point the reward (however large) becomes not worth the cost, i.e. your very real chance of dying to put it bluntly. Perhaps the boldest climbers climb things which are bold enough to feed the rat and they don't need to go any bolder. Perhaps some were doing it for peer recognition, which might be more conditional now, or less effusive, so have toned it down or stopped. None of that is an implied criticism of bold climbing, just the notion of 'progress' itself in this context.
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I'm not sure its more of a reaction than starting a new thread on a below the line Insta comment
Is starting a new thread not the done thing? Clearly I don't really keep up, but I'm laid up in bed this week, and the way he'd put it made me curious if I've been missing something.
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That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?
Surely sanity precludes the constant 'progress' your comment implies is desirable. I'd ask who this progress is desirable for? The audience (average climbers) or the participant? If the former, a community of generally not very bold people egging a few outliers into performing ever more dangerous acts for the entertainment of the group seems a bit off to me. If the latter, then surely it's wholly personal to the individual, and ascents don't need to be one step bolder than the boldest climb ever in order to be worthwhile. Even if boldness is directly proportional to a sense of reward, surely at some point the reward (however large) becomes not worth the price i.e. your very real chance of dying to put it bluntly. Perhaps the boldest climbers climb things which are bold enough to feed the rat and they don't need to go any bolder. Perhaps some were doing it for peer recognition which may be more conditional now, or less effusive, so have toned it down or stopped. None of that is an implied criticism of bold climbing, which is something I greatly admire up to a point and have participated in in my own small way over the years.
There can be quite a lot criticism aimed at those that stick their necks out with “bold” routes or claims there of. It can follow you for decades, too:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CTFD2RjDEAn/?utm_medium=copy_link (https://www.instagram.com/p/CTFD2RjDEAn/?utm_medium=copy_link)
Sometimes people even leave the country after enough of it. So, unless you strongly crave the adulation of others, you’d probably keep a fairly low profile in the age of Social Media.
I was being snarky about Gresh, but it wasn’t really what I’d meant to say. I’d meant to critique the the concept of criticism of people making personal choices. Because someone choosing to take a risk, of any nature, is their own business; as long as they’re not putting the unwilling or unsuspecting at jeopardy in the process. If you want to drive at 150 mph on a busy motorway, you are a twat; if you wish to slackline across the Grand Canyon, blindfold and without harness or safety line, fine.
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In reply to Cheque:
Yes, women’s trad standards have improved massively, it’s hard to gague if the same is true of mens. I forgot to mention Neil Dickson in my previous post who has pushed things a bit
Yeah I’ve no idea what’s newsworthy or what represents women’s or men’s standards or anything. I just remembered there was that post about an E7 yesterday and thought it seemed relevant to mention it.
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EDIT: I also failed to appreciate how busy this thread would be! The below is a reply to Bonjoy
I obviously misrepresented my point of view. It's not a desire to see people push into more dangerous territory, I was lamenting that we don't seem to recognise the skills required to push on, on-sight, with the required level of circumspection (i.e. safety); a headpoint of an E9 gets the headlines, an on-sight of an E7 either doesn't or else they are not as frequent as you would expect given the explosion in people's physical skills. I'm not saying grades for OS trad should have gone up at the same rate but I'm wondering if they have gone backwards overall?
If anything I think headpointing (and the fetishization of E grades) have led to some people taking more risk. There are people who can barely OS E3 who have risked their ankles for an E7 they've been able to sketch up on a top rope. Climbing bold trad on-sight needn't be foolhardy and I don't think we've not reached a ceiling on trad because there are so few headpoint projects remaining, there are other avenues for trad climbing without people getting hurt.
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I'm not sure its more of a reaction than starting a new thread on a below the line Insta comment
Is starting a new thread not the done thing? Clearly I don't really keep up, but I'm laid up in bed this week, and the way he'd put it made me curious if I've been missing something.
People can start threads on whatever they like, it just seemed to be turning into a bit of an unnecessary pile on.
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That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?
Surely sanity precludes the constant 'progress' your comment implies is desirable. I'd ask who this progress is desirable for? The audience (average climbers) or the participant? If the former, a community of generally not very bold people egging a few outliers into performing ever more dangerous acts for the entertainment of the group seems a bit off to me. If the latter, then surely it's wholly personal to the individual, and ascents don't need to be one step bolder than the boldest climb ever in order to be worthwhile. Even if boldness is directly proportional to a sense of reward, surely at some point the reward (however large) becomes not worth the price i.e. your very real chance of dying to put it bluntly. Perhaps the boldest climbers climb things which are bold enough to feed the rat and they don't need to go any bolder. Perhaps some were doing it for peer recognition which may be more conditional now, or less effusive, so have toned it down or stopped. None of that is an implied criticism of bold climbing, which is something I greatly admire up to a point and have participated in in my own small way over the years.
There can be quite a lot criticism aimed at those that stick their necks out with “bold” routes or claims there of. It can follow you for decades, too:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CTFD2RjDEAn/?utm_medium=copy_link (https://www.instagram.com/p/CTFD2RjDEAn/?utm_medium=copy_link)
Sometimes people even leave the country after enough of it. So, unless you strongly crave the adulation of others, you’d probably keep a fairly low profile in the age of Social Media.
I was being snarky about Gresh, but it wasn’t really what I’d meant to say. I’d meant to critique the the concept of criticism of people making personal choices. Because someone choosing to take a risk, of any nature, is their own business; as long as they’re not putting the unwilling or unsuspecting at jeopardy in the process. If you want to drive at 150 mph on a busy motorway, you are a twat; if you wish to slackline across the Grand Canyon, blindfold and without harness or safety line, fine.
Yes, I agree. There was a lot of that sort of thing when Honnold's film came out.
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a headpoint of an E9 gets the headlines, an on-sight of an E7 either doesn't or else they are not as frequent as you would expect given the explosion in people's physical skills.
I think this is the slight disconnect here, yes elite climbers overall are a lot stronger and fitter now, but very few are focussed on hard trad climbing to any extent, and as such you’ve not seen the advances there that there have been in bouldering and sport.
If trad was still the mainstay of the elite and E grades had been pushed higher overall (if such a thing is even possible with our weird system), then I’m sure you would have seen a complimentary increase in the onsight level.
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A comment from Neil Gresham on Insta:
I've only just realised that this actually says Neil Gresham and not Niall Grimes!
Can you guys be more considerate when choosing names in the future please. Thank you.
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I think this is the slight disconnect here, yes elite climbers overall are a lot stronger and fitter now, but very few are focussed on hard trad climbing to any extent, and as such you’ve not seen the advances there that there have been in bouldering and sport.
I know why they haven’t risen and I don’t want or expect anyone to do anything, I was just irked by the implication that trad was at a dead end because headpointing was at a dead end and I think it’s a shame that most now see cutting edge trad only in terms head pointing. It was no more than an old man shouts at clouds type comment.
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No demonisation from what I can tell. I think it’s more that the recognition and kudos for what constitutes cutting edge in trad has moved on and what the old guard of Gresh et al did (headpoint E8s and 9s) isn’t considered leading edge anymore. Headpoints of E9s have been done for a very long time. Onsighting E8 or harder is the standard for being leading edge now. Hardly any climbers are good enough to onsight E8 or E9. On that metric McClure is at the leading edge of UK trad climbing as well as sport climbing... Don’t see anyone demonising his trad ascents.
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Onsighting E8 or harder is the standard for being leading edge now. Hardly any climbers are good enough to onsight E8 or E9.
In which case things really have slowed to a crawl.
Genuine question, as I really don't know; what E9 onsights have there been?
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I think most of the demonisation was done years ago by Crowley and Redhead. Very little progress since. It’s all far too wholesome nowadays.
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There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.
Let's be honest, choss is shit.
Alex, your entire climbing career has been on limestone :blink:
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On that metric McClure is at the leading edge of UK trad climbing as well as sport climbing... Don’t see anyone demonising his trad ascents.
Doh, I totally forgot about McClure, it does however support my point that climbing hard trad needn’t be about performative acts of danger nor a function of sanity.
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Alex, your entire climbing career has been on limestone :blink:
Yeah, but all the best limestone routes are covered in enough sika to no longer count as choss ;D (apart from the ones at places like Ceuse where they're actually bomber rock)
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Doh, I totally forgot about McClure, it does however support my point that climbing hard trad needn’t be about performative acts of danger nor a function of sanity.
I guess he had a massive grade buffer (in terms of fitness and strength), but I find it hard to judge how much something like his ascent of Nightmayer was hanging it out there. Maybe he felt within himself enough to reverse every move!
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Genuine question, as I really don't know; what E9 onsights have there been?
Very few. Not at my computer so I can't put together a comprehensive list, but James Pearson's flash of Something Burning in Pembroke is one of the hardest flashes in the UK (it was very much a flash though, lots of info before he set off).
In pure onsights, Steve Mcs ascent of nightmayer is one of the more impressive that come to mind.
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Pretty sure the short answer is none?
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Bold trad. was always frowned-on by normal people. The difference between 1981 and 2021 is that normal people now go climbing.
This made me smile.
Bold trad is demonised by my wife. She keeps telling me it’s irresponsible. I’m not sure it’s demonised by anyone else, it just doesn’t get the interest of strong youths.
@Barrows - choss is great. Preferably huge, tottering piles of it that involve a semi-religious experience while desperately clawing your way to the top.
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Really interesting thread. Too much to add, but this first from Andy P:
"When I started (jumpers for goalposts etc.) it was pretty much an integral part of climbing, something many/most climbers did in some form or another. I think I first soloed something - a Severe on the Sea Walls at Avon - on my third day out."
Those were the days Andy! ;D
There's different types of bold climbing though aren't there? In MacLeod's insta post he describes a type of climbing where he believes he can control all the variables given sufficient training and preparation.
There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice
Re McLeod's comment, that's the ever enticing illusion - of being able to control the variables.
I did a new route up on Stanage with Andy many years ago. For me, the prep was kept at a level where the ascent still required rolling the dice, putting yourself in a position of uncertainty.
In many ways, that's what the debate was always about - the uncertainty of hard trad vs the uncertainty of a hard redpoint.
Bold meant uncertain.
I think we often don't understand what it is that we are actually risking. Often the physical consequences of a mistake are confused with the emotional consequences, because they are more obvious.
What does McLeod really want to be in control of. Lobbing off a sport route can often be at least as traumatic as falling off a bold trad route.
I'd want to contrast the different approach towards the Cloggy "great wall" between Redhead and Dawes. Yes, Redhead's attempts were massively compromised, but still maintained an "authentic desire", whereas to me, Dawes stole the girl just because he could.
In that, there's something of the underlying desire, which makes any critique of bold trad, about far far more than a number.
I want to sign off this post by saying that if there's one person I know who really f'ing loves climbing, it's Gresham.
Yes, he can be easy to take a pop at, as can anyone expressing an opinion, but anything from Neil that can be read as expressing the sense of something being lost in climbing, will absolutely come from the same heart and underlying motivation that we all really want to protect.
But then, in that last sentence, is the question about what might be changing.
"Applaud?" ;D
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Yeah, no question Neil’s a genuine guy.
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Re McLeod's comment, that's the ever enticing illusion - of being able to control the variables.
I did a new route up on Stanage with Andy many years ago. For me, the prep was kept at a level where the ascent still required rolling the dice, putting yourself in a position of uncertainty.
Bold meant uncertain.
I think we often don't understand what it is that we are actually risking. Often the physical consequences of a mistake are confused with the emotional consequences, because they are more obvious.
What does McLeod really want to be in control of. Lobbing off a sport route can often be at least as traumatic as falling off a bold trad route.
I'd want to contrast the different approach towards the Cloggy "great wall" between Redhead and Dawes. Yes, Redhead's attempts were massively compromised, but still maintained an "authentic desire", whereas to me, Dawes stole the girl just because he could.
In that, there's something of the underlying desire, which makes any critique of bold trad, about far far more than a number.
Interested to scratch at your perspective on this Dave, as someone who seems both thoughtful and (on past occasion at least) exceptionally bold.
The distinction between bold and controlled is important - if you've mitigated the risk to such an extent that it is, to reference Dave Mac's Insta post, no more risky than a walk along Crib Goch (I'm dubious about this comparison, but leaving that aside...), that obviously isn't the same thing as setting off with a large degree unknown. Super-prepared, low risk headpoints are not the apotheosis of 'bold trad'. If Gresham perceives that headpointing poorly protected E9s is now frowned upon, imagine what those people must think of genuinely bold trad!
But then, I've got mixed feelings myself. You say it was important for you to 'roll the dice' - this suggests more than just uncertainty, but submitting entirely to luck. Roll a six, everything goes smoothly, roll a two, you break your spine... Is it not usually more controlled than that? You had a lot of skill and experience, many points at which you could decide whether or not to climb higher or downclimb, perhaps some possibility of rescue, etc.
And if there were moments that were genuine rolling of the dice, where it was in the lap of the gods whether you lived or died, what were the rewards that justified that level of risk?
I'm not a bold climber, but have done some relatively bold things - and to tell the truth, those which felt the boldest I'm not proud of, because I was flirting with the margins of my control in a way that I can't really justify. What did I get from it, other than a buzz of relief, a bit of lame kudos maybe, a little bit of self knowledge and know-better for next time? Perhaps I was doing them for the wrong reasons.
I guess my admiration for those who do hard bold things is not their willingness to 'roll the dice', but their ability to be cool and decisive in positions of extreme risk. So it's not the boldness in itself that merits applause, but the ability to marshal boldness intelligently.
On a side note, I don't quite follow your point about the confusion between physical vs. emotional consequences...
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One my old climbing partners recently said me that one his worst climbing experiences was watching me solo a multi pitch route in the Lakes. Not that I looked out of control but he just felt sort of helpless watching. However I felt it was a memorable climb for the opposite reason that I felt so solid on it.
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Interesting thread. I used to do some bold routes but I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a bold climber, now or then.
I enjoyed the experience of having a degree of control over a relatively high level of risk, however illusory that may have been. But the experiences where I felt that I'd lost control and was merely fighting for survival rather unpleasant and they always left a feeling of guilt and nausea. Those were thankfully few, and I think many people feel like that, there is a very small minority of people who revel in that feeling of really being on the edge but I'm not one of them. It isn't necessarily grade dependent either; I didn't really like last slip in Avon even though I found it easy at the time and had no problems, however I loved climbing things like the Cad or edge lane. Perhaps it may just depend upon if I was in the right mood. I think theres probably a reduced capacity for perceived risk nowadays, but that many people don't take the risks of say, sport climbing seriously enough while dismissing trad as too dangerous for them. I wouldn't say I'd noticed anyone really frowning on bold climbers though.
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I was just short of 10 years old when my Dad first walked me across Crib Goch. I was totally shitting myself the whole way, spent a while clinging to one rock a refusing to move. A couple of German lads passed us, laughing at me.
I remember the cloud blowing across, just as my dad got me moving again (on a comfort rope) and the scream from a few hundred feet ahead. Still quite clear, in my head, forty years later.
Dad escorted the remaining German to the summit station and I had to grow up and “help”.
(Seems slightly weird now, but it was all but deserted up there. Would have been October half term. So, no mobiles (1980), everything at the summit closed except the station. Must have been hours before the MRT started looking for the lad, he went over the Llanberis side). Dad made me finish the horseshoe, rather than dwell on shit (he was a Copper).
Anyway, yeah, I’m a little dubious of Ste Mac’s comparison too. Possibly for different reasons…
That’s not an entirely spurious digression, though. Life is risk. I can think of many, terrible, accidents that hit people close to me, in the mountains/on the rocks, in frankly ridiculously banal circumstances. Moira, the wife (and fellow instructor) of Ron Hart, who ran the South West Adventure centre (Tintagel) where I first worked as a fresh faced 16 year old instructor; almost totalled herself, broke multiple bones and spent months in hospital/recovery, teaching a kids group in the Cheesewring, because she’d been standing on a 2’ high boulder and stepped backwards. A bold climber and mountaineer friend, Steve McCloud, was (basically) walking his brothers dog on Nevis, on a lead, when the dog bolted after something, he ended up taking a 400’ fall and about 18 months to learn to walk again.
Fuck, when I was 14, I was bouldering with mates in the mountains above Columbia (CA), over a towel (1984) and pulled over the top to come face to face with a friggin rattlesnake. I just let go, I didn’t break anything, but I was pretty banged up and Poison Oak’d all to shit, and that was supposed to bean entirely fun, easy day.
All of my life, there have been people queuing up to have a go at me for taking risks. All around me, I’ve heard the same shit thrown at others, for similar reasons. “Just think of how your Mother/friends/what ever will feel”, “You give X/Y/Z/blah blah a bad name”.
(I once had to endure a particularly obnoxious Methodist Minister, bible held before him, loudly praying that I would spare my Grandmother any further anguish and wake up to my sinful ways; at a family dinner shortly after I got back from the disastrous South Georgia exped in ‘93. If I hadn’t been in too much pain from the frostbite, I would have rammed my foot and his bible, where the sun doesn’t shine).
So, I get a bit irritated by people criticising others for taking risks and that’s compounded by having lost so many for entirely mundane and even stupid reasons. John (Mr World record 300msw on Scuba, disappeared on a recreational dive. My wife, veteran of a thousand scrapes and adventures of great risk, died of cancerous baby piles, ffs). However, I also think it all stems from people’s really appalling inability to objectively quantify risk in their own daily lives.
It’s your life, live it as you see fit. Only you are able to decide what achievements are worthwhile or risks appropriate, in all aspects of your life and the whining of others is irrelevant.
Fuck it, you could walk in front of a bus tomorrow, or you could fall off a cliff trying something you thought worth trying, with very similar consequences. Personally, I’d find the latter easier to deal with.
Edit:
I still didn’t write what I actually meant to.
Who gives a shit if bold trad is demonised or not? Because anybody doing any sort of “Demonising” isn’t worth listening to and anybody who wanted to be out there pushing themselves, isn’t going to be listening to (or deterred by ) it anyway. If it seems like a quieter scene than it once was, it’s more likely that it’s just a smaller slice of a much bigger pie than it once was, rather than absolutely a smaller activity (you could probably never exceed a number of “top” pioneers, that couldn’t be counted on one hand, in any generation) anyway.
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Good post, especially
However, I also think it all stems from people’s really appalling inability to objectively quantify risk in their own daily lives.
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This is an interesting one to comment on as it's something that I've passed through in my personal climbing journey. Climbing has always been first and foremost about adventure for me, the personal experience (or that of myself and my partner) has always been more important than numbers (or in some of the more Esoteric adventures - significance).
While I always valued my life highly, I also considered risk a valuable tool for self discovery.
There was a time when I soloed quite close to my onsight limit for instance, and I often sought out first ascents in an onsight style in bold territory (the back wall of Twll Mawr for instance).
Around this time I did a short piece for an arty film of John Redhead's; soloing Opening Gambit in Twll Mawr. Here for those interested :
https://youtu.be/fzsSa7xgiJk (https://youtu.be/fzsSa7xgiJk)
Time passes, and I drifted out of trad and more into bouldering. I still enjoy a highball.
However, I seem to have moved on from pursuing that risk /become less lassiez faire with consequences. Partially because I feel I've learnt what I needed to, partially because I've four kids so the weight of consequence is so much greater.
I guess I'm writing this because if the self introspection / inspection that bold climbing gives is lost because people don't understand it, that would be a bad thing.
However, I also think that the if the mascho labelling that bold climbing has had in the past is lost, that would be great, as it would hopefully stop people entering into 'deep play' too lightly.
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When the rock pops out in that chimney :o
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I think in truth I may have dislodged that rock, but the banana flake did fall off a year or so later. I had led it a couple of times before and was confident I could handle the rock correctly
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Just as a reference point, as an aside to establish some sort of “acceptable risk” standard amongst UKBites…
What was your riskiest but planned/considered adventure? Climbing related or otherwise.
Not an impetuous act, something you thought about and entered into risk aware?
Change names and locations if required.
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Acceptable risk depends on perceived risk.
At no point had I entered into a scenario where I wasn't confident I could mitigate the risk of death for instance.
Risks I have accepted are injury (non permanent), pain, and the aftermath of trauma.
A climbing example would be the fa of Twll Love in Twll Mawr. I was confident enough that I could reverse thrusters to safety if I could detect the wheels coming off. Indeed when my chosen line ramped up the technicalities above a cobweb of inadequate gear. Rather than giving in to the sirens call, I looked for the exits and accepted an inferior line. Close call though as the moves looked delicious, but probably deadly.
A non climbing adventure was my doomed attempt to coasteer Cilan Head. Again a lot of planning went in, but then a navigational error led us to start from the other end (Doris) from our plan. Unforeseen risk (strong easterly currents and a sea floor magnifying the swell) almost chopped me, however my partner in the adventure was able to organise a rescue and retreat. I guess he was my planned for mitigating factor. However, it was a close call.
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Just replying to Andy Moles first, I think this post from Toby conveys things quite well.
"Illusory control over high risk" - obviously misquoted; hope that's OK Toby - is significant here, in terms of how we perceive risk, and risky situations. I don't want to go too far down the hole into discussion about that, but there's a common misconception that hard bold climbing is all about being in a "Don't sneeze at the wrong time situation". Ironically, I'd say this is closer to the truth on harder headpoints, where if you get "off line" you're more likely to crash.
Interesting thread. I used to do some bold routes but I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a bold climber, now or then.
I enjoyed the experience of having a degree of control over a relatively high level of risk, however illusory that may have been. But the experiences where I felt that I'd lost control and was merely fighting for survival rather unpleasant and they always left a feeling of guilt and nausea. Those were thankfully few, and I think many people feel like that, there is a very small minority of people who revel in that feeling of really being on the edge but I'm not one of them. It isn't necessarily grade dependent either; I didn't really like last slip in Avon even though I found it easy at the time and had no problems, however I loved climbing things like the Cad or edge lane. Perhaps it may just depend upon if I was in the right mood. I think theres probably a reduced capacity for perceived risk nowadays, but that many people don't take the risks of say, sport climbing seriously enough while dismissing trad as too dangerous for them. I wouldn't say I'd noticed anyone really frowning on bold climbers though.
By "rolling the dice" I'm not meaning that it determines the result entirely, but a higher level of uncertainty. I think that what we really "play" for, are those moments where we're actually committed to "what happens in between". You're living a bit, in that moment; the future isn't something you have as much of the luxury of thinking you can determine. Alain Robert spoke to a psychologist who understood that Alain's exploits were more about being less in control, not more.
In those moments, you are like an observer. You lose the tension of "being afraid of losing". It's a wonderful place to be, and there's a relief from other things.
Imagine strapping yourself into the command module of a rocket. Now that's a pretty risky endeavor! You have to make a committed decision to take the ride, but you're so unable to control everything, that you're going to be able to wonder at the fabulous splendour of the earth. Imagine that.
In moments like that, I think you can feel connected to the sense of being part of everything, rather than being an ego in a bubble. You can't dance very well, if you're paranoid about how well you perform.
It's the connection/disconnection which I believe is the reward/risk balance, and the possibility of physical harm is part of the collection of hazards that we know we have to accept, in order to play the deeper game.
I'm sure most of us will have experienced it, standing on a couple of Gritstone smears, trying to reach tentatively out to the arete, but knowing that there's no way of stretching to that position without committing to a step across, and letting go of what feels like the more solid position.
From the work of the psychoanalyst Lacan, there's a term called Méconnaissance - or "misrecognition" - which tries to capture the false reflection we may have been given, of somehow existing separately from everything we're really a part of. When we're in that state - or living lives based on the faulty reflection we were given - we can feel under attack from life, or sense that ("external") life happens to ("internal") me. Depending on the level of that burden in our lives, we are more or less likely to seek ways of offloading some of it.
My worst climbing experience was on High Neb Buttress at Stanage. I was slightly distracted at the crux, and just stood up, but realised that I was falling backwards. I shot out an arm, and only just caught the break. It was a really really horrible experience, full of the "feeling of guilt and nausea" that Toby refers to. That's only happened once, though there have been other close calls. Funnily enough, many years ago, I'd rocked up in the Avon Gorge, and someone thought they'd sandbag me, and point me at Last Slip. Found it reasonably tricky, but particularly absorbing at the time.
Being absorbed away from other things is a major part of why we do what we do, isn't it. The familiarity of other hazards, just makes them seem less noticeable.
Oh, and:
Yeah, no question Neil’s a genuine guy.
+1
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Acceptable risk depends on perceived risk.
At no point had I entered into a scenario where I wasn't confident I could mitigate the risk of death for instance.
Risks I have accepted are injury (non permanent), pain, and the aftermath of trauma.
A climbing example would be the fa of Twll Love in Twll Mawr. I was confident enough that I could reverse thrusters to safety if I could detect the wheels coming off. Indeed when my chosen line ramped up the technicalities above a cobweb of inadequate gear. Rather than giving in to the sirens call, I looked for the exits and accepted an inferior line. Close call though as the moves looked delicious, but probably deadly.
A non climbing adventure was my doomed attempt to coasteer Cilan Head. Again a lot of planning went in, but then a navigational error led us to start from the other end (Doris) from our plan. Unforeseen risk (strong easterly currents and a sea floor magnifying the swell) almost chopped me, however my partner in the adventure was able to organise a rescue and retreat. I guess he was my planned for mitigating factor. However, it was a close call.
I love your use of language Hosey. The video is great too.
I grew up on a diet of coasteering and dicey retreats on the North Devon coast 8)
The relative scale of you and the big hole captures the essence well. The big flake reminds me of Spacewalk on Lundy. That was a great adventure, snuck in quickly before catching the ferry back, although it fell down later..!
Regarding risk - or rather consequences - on anything harder, I'd mentally prepare for the worst, mainly because you can't really climb well enough if you're not fully committed. I believe there's an element of that at all levels though. If you're soloing something because "you know you can do it", you're probably in a very dangerous position.
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Acceptable risk depends on perceived risk.
At no point had I entered into a scenario where I wasn't confident I could mitigate the risk of death for instance.
Risks I have accepted are injury (non permanent), pain, and the aftermath of trauma.
A climbing example would be the fa of Twll Love in Twll Mawr. I was confident enough that I could reverse thrusters to safety if I could detect the wheels coming off. Indeed when my chosen line ramped up the technicalities above a cobweb of inadequate gear. Rather than giving in to the sirens call, I looked for the exits and accepted an inferior line. Close call though as the moves looked delicious, but probably deadly.
A non climbing adventure was my doomed attempt to coasteer Cilan Head. Again a lot of planning went in, but then a navigational error led us to start from the other end (Doris) from our plan. Unforeseen risk (strong easterly currents and a sea floor magnifying the swell) almost chopped me, however my partner in the adventure was able to organise a rescue and retreat. I guess he was my planned for mitigating factor. However, it was a close call.
I love your use of language Hosey. The video is great too.
I grew up on a diet of coasteering and dicey retreats on the North Devon coast 8)
The relative scale of you and the big hole captures the essence well. The big flake reminds me of Spacewalk on Lundy. That was a great adventure, snuck in quickly before catching the ferry back, although it fell down later..!
Regarding risk - or rather consequences - on anything harder, I'd mentally prepare for the worst, mainly because you can't really climb well enough if you're not fully committed. I believe there's an element of that at all levels though. If you're soloing something because "you know you can do it", you're probably in a very dangerous position.
I have never been a bold climber, despite all my scrapes and adventures. I am, in truth, desperately scared of heights (I don’t believe I’ve actually told anybody that before, that wasn’t a very close friend) and it’s always been the biggest single drag on my climbing. If I don’t spend enough time, in enough exposure, to maintain a level of acclimatisation, I have to start from scratch and that takes a great deal of emotional effort. Learning to pilot helicopters was both a deliberate attempt to overcome that fear and an internal ordeal as great as any in my life. I find it easier to cope with mountaineering exposure than pure rockface exposure, too, and I don’t know why. I have Fast Roped out of Helo’s and jumped from them and still go and deliberately jump off very high cliffs and it’s really me, still, trying to quash that weakness and trying to convince myself that it hasn’t taken every ounce of my will power to do so. When climbing, I will make all sorts of excuses about being pumped out etc, when I’m actually just unable to overcome my fear on that day, because I just can’t get my head straight. Yet I have still made some quite hard ascents in places like the Verdon and the Dolomites etc and been leading multi pitch trad since I was 12. I’ve never been able to muster more than E4/5 though. I backed off Eroica three times as a youngster (18/19) before I manage to push through. Darkinbad, went down with similar angst and a very understanding buddy, but a good three years later.
I have, frequently, gone into situations and expeditions, with very real expectations of not coming back or not coming back whole. I don’t think I ever did any sort of mental preparation for that, though, just lots and lots of physical training and theoretical prep and planning, as if that could control the dice. I can pin point the exact moment I stopped (woke up?). I was really quite obsessed with getting back onto the U533 (and my career, but different story) and the whole Technical Diving world. However, my life had changed, without my actually acknowledging it yet. My wife was six months pregnant with No.1.
Technical Diving, at that level, was months of training and planning, for 10 minutes at depth and a couple of hours of decompression and ascent in the blue. We were still predominantly open circuit divers, but a couple of the team had begun a transition into closed circuit rebreathers. We were on a training dive on the wreck of the Innes, around 25km off Fujairah when one of those rebreathers exploded (O2 leak and a spark/compression ignition, who knows. There was a pop and it went off like a rocket pack, burning almost instantly through the Fiberglass deck of our boat and igniting the fuel tank).
Anyway, bobbing around in the Indian Ocean, with a chunk of plastic shrapnel in my leg, watching all of our carefully prepared survival equipment and multiple comms devices/radios/flares etc, vanish in smoke; lead to a realisation that I really wasn’t in any sort of control over my own destiny, in any shape or form and that continuing wasn’t an option (actually, at that moment I had no real hope of being rescued or making a miraculous swim to shore).
It wasn’t the first epic of my life, but it was the first where I had neglected a responsibility to another human that depended on me. Breaking a loved one’s heart was a selfishly acceptable risk, leaving my child without a parent, I realised was unacceptable. Unfortunately I had to have that beaten into my thick skull the hard way.
So, I went from simply dealing with risk, by ignoring it, to using it as my primary determinant.
I am, 16 years later, finding that surprisingly difficult and have very itchy feet. All of my kids are quite independent and I am actively seeking other ways to increase my “risk” without going too far. Essentially I need a new job, with some excitement/interest value, rather than heading right back into full on shit. Watch this space, because my RN stuff went back on hold again (18 moths of being messed around), I interviewed for something else, passed and hopefully will begin training in November, assuming my security clearances all go through, medicals all done and nothing except a second MMR jab on the 23rd, so fingers crossed. I digress, but I’m excited at the prospect of a new adventure, even if I don’t want to jinx it.
That last line sums it up, doesn’t it? I am excited for the prospect of a new adventure, because, without that prospect, I feel like I am just treading water, watching the boat of my life burning and the planning and execution of a project (the greater and riskier the better) gives me a sense of meaning and purpose.
For reference, having kids and the whole family thing, might be the biggest and scariest, adventure I’ve ever had. However, I have to realise that my part in that has significantly reduced and that expedition leadership has to be handed over to the next generation, pretty soon.
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Thanks Dave for taking the time to give such a detailed reply.
It's interesting to read and attempt to map onto my best attempt to imagine what it feels like to solo something like Terra Cotta, an attempt which is guaranteed to be inadequate...
Much of that I can relate to, particularly the moments of dissolution of self/ sense of otherness from the world. Though I find it elusive. But I feel like I can identify with the feeling, when you cannot know the dancer from the dance, in other ways, that don't need to involve a real sense of threat of harm (and I don't just mean swallowing psychedelics). Perhaps without risk there can never be quite the same character or intensity? I can certainly imagine why the feeling would be ample reward for the risk, if only you're able to ignore the chimp brain screaming that if you fuck up now, you die.
The 'loss of control' aspect is almost paradoxical, because in such moments you are required to exercise the ultimate control - anything else could be fatal - but I guess it bypasses the usual top-down sense of volition, more feeling than thinking.
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I’m having a right nostalgic weekend (cooped up with sick kids) and I google Darkinbad and turned up your article Andy. Really enjoyed it. I have crossed Ulysseses off my “must get around to reading” list, ta. I might even open UKC more often, too. I grew up in St Tudy and Pentire was the home of many ambitions, though I found it an extremely intimidating crag. Even watched them throw “M’Lady” off the top, filming “The Three Musketeers”, when I was a kid (edit: kid 🙄 I was in my 20’s and home on leave, it was after Eroica (91), pre Darkinbad (95)) (my dad, as the local copper, was “security” on the set. I got sent out with his lunch and managed to hang around for a while) and seeing the dummy thump into the boulders, probably didn’t make it any less intimidating…
Stupid that the thought of that crag is giving me sweaty palms, given that (along with a certain, North of the border, wall owner) we explored deep into the old lead mine there, a far riskier proposition than the climbing.
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Thanks. What an amazing wall that is. After doing that and Il Duce a few days previously I was wildly enthused to go back and do more on that coast, check out some of the unrepeated stuff on the north side of Tintagel etc, but as these things often go I haven't yet been back.
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On the subject of E9s in good style I forgot about Pete Whittaker's flash of Ronny Medelsvensson which gets 8b. Dunno how much beta he had so not sure where it sits on the onsight-basically a headpoint spectrum.
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Maybe Gresham was just testing the running for how this would be received?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2021/09/lexicon_e11_7a_-_first_ascent_on_pavey_ark_by_neil_gresham-72872
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Good thread. I've really enjoyed reading the contributions.
My only input, with limited time, is that Neil's "demonisation" comment isn't a spur of the moment throwaway. It's also what he told me when I interviewed him 18 months ago for the Factor Two episode Deep Play.
I think it was borne from seeing a shift in the attitudes and ambitions of people he coaches. The only real anecdote he told me actually related to all trad being unjustifiably dangerous though.
My conclusion, from conversations with Patch, Leo, Bransby and others, is that the north Wales scene in the 90s had such reverence for boldness that it really felt like that was the game. That scene doesn't exist in the same way these days. That's the climbing world that inspired me when I started too, even if I wasn't losing sleep over wanting to OS Indian Face like Leo.
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My conclusion, from conversations with Patch, Leo, Bransby and others, is that the north Wales scene in the 90s had such reverence for boldness that it really felt like that was the game. That scene doesn't exist in the same way these days. That's the climbing world that inspired me when I started too, even if I wasn't losing sleep over wanting to OS Indian Face like Leo.
Sounds like it could only ever have gone in one direction from there then - any change from this would appear to be a step towards "demonisation"
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If you want to reach 9A* or 9c* you better not have some stupid ankle injury or other complex fractures holding training back for months during your must productive years (from teenager to mid twenties).
(* replace by 9B and 10a if you plan to reach the level ten years hence)