UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: ali k on June 22, 2021, 07:28:02 am
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Loved that, great read. Particularly that he was considering down climbing Raindogs in order to have a high first clip on his RPs :lol:
That’s not the first time I’ve seen/heard of this being done. Haven’t read the diary so not sure Steve’s thoughts on it but downclimbing the lower half of a route once so you can have high gear pre-clipped for evermore always seemed a bit dodgy to me.
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Once upon a time, the ethic was that you could have a high bolt pre clipped, but you had to do the downclimb on the same day as the redpoint. Vickers was just relating the other day how he climbed and then downclimbed 50 for 5 to the clip above the belay after he had redpointed All Out. I asked him what would have happened if he had dropped it? He was like "I wasn't going to drop it, I felt amazing", or words to that effect!
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Loved that, great read. Particularly that he was considering down climbing Raindogs in order to have a high first clip on his RPs :lol:
That’s not the first time I’ve seen/heard of this being done. Haven’t read the diary so not sure Steve’s thoughts on it but downclimbing the lower half of a route once so you can have high gear pre-clipped for evermore always seemed a bit dodgy to me.
Oh that wasn't how I took it, I thought he meant climbing and then down climbing Raindogs before every redpoint attempt! Even that would be dodgy in my opinion but having that apply eternally thereafter seems bizarre.
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It started off ok with people doing it before the redpoint. Then some did after the redpoint. Then some ticked the downclimb on a separate day. There were examples of people working the downclimb and spending a whole session doing it. Another trick was clipping a long last draw on the up and down climb and replacing it with a normal draw for the redpoint. It was all getting ridiculous and thankfully consigned to history.
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It was all getting ridiculous and thankfully consigned to history.
Maybe not! I’ve been witness to the “done the downclimb once” ethic on a top end trad route in the last few years.
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It started off ok with people doing it before the redpoint. Then some did after the redpoint. Then some ticked the downclimb on a separate day. There were examples of people working the downclimb and spending a whole session doing it. Another trick was clipping a long last draw on the up and down climb and replacing it with a normal draw for the redpoint. It was all getting ridiculous and thankfully consigned to history.
As I heard it, Markus Bock tried to repeat the short 8c+ next to Dura Dura in Oliana. He did it fairly quickly with the fourth bolt pre-clipped or whatever, but he had linked the route before he had managed to climb up to said draw, clip it and downclimb to the ground. The rest of the visit he spent projecting the downclimb. He never linked the downclimb before he left and has since never been back.
[edit] if this story doesn't get you inspired for redpointing, I do not know what will.[/edit]
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Loved that, great read. Particularly that he was considering down climbing Raindogs in order to have a high first clip on his RPs :lol:
That’s not the first time I’ve seen/heard of this being done. Haven’t read the diary so not sure Steve’s thoughts on it but downclimbing the lower half of a route once so you can have high gear pre-clipped for evermore always seemed a bit dodgy to me.
A good read. Down climbing Raindogs is 8b+ if you're running out of things to do at Malham! Steve did it on day 51, when progress had stalled and he was exploring all possibilities to gain an edge. It also made sharing Raindogs with its many suitors a bit easier. Eventually he concluded it wasn't cricket and it wasn't offering an advantage (he was failing at the same point whether he started from the ground or the Raindogs belay if I've understood it correctly). It might have been less easy to be ethically pure if a high first clip had conferred a significant benefit!
I suppose the message to limit redpointers is try everything. I wouldn't know.
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Sorry to go all UKC, but am I right in thinking that the general agreement is that down climbing sport routes to capitalise on preclipping is complete bullshit?
It's interesting to hear Bock was in on it, as I always thought it was an outdated UK-centric quirk stemming from trad practices.
I have a friend who's been carefully preserving the onsight for a particular sport route despite having tied in and climbed the first part over various sessions...
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Sorry to go all UKC, but am I right in thinking that the general agreement is that down climbing sport routes to capitalise on preclipping is complete bullshit?
It's interesting to hear Bock was in on it, as I always thought it was an outdated UK-centric quirk stemming from trad practices.
I have a friend who's been carefully preserving the onsight for a particular sport route despite having tied in and climbed the first part over various sessions...
If you're happy climbing up and down each time it's legit in my opinion. Say there was a big ledge by the second bolt, it'd obviously be legit (and potentially good tactics, depending on the route) to climb up, clip a couple of high draws above the ledge then down climb to the ledge for a rest before questing on to glory. If it's legit for ledges then why is downclimbing to the ground any different?
Doing the down climb once and then pre-clipping the high draw on subsequent attempts is much more shady in my opinion.
With the onsight, you don't blow it until you've fallen off. Downclimbing is fine.
p.s. maybe worth a thread split to stop Ian's thread going off track?
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As I heard it, Markus Bock tried to repeat the short 8c+ next to Dura Dura in Oliana. He did it fairly quickly with the fourth bolt pre-clipped or whatever, but he had linked the route before he had managed to climb up to said draw, clip it and downclimb to the ground. The rest of the visit he spent projecting the downclimb. He never linked the downclimb before he left and has since never been back.
[edit] if this story doesn't get you inspired for redpointing, I do not know what will.[/edit]
Dear me, what a waste of time! Back around.
I have a friend who's been carefully preserving the onsight for a particular sport route despite having tied in and climbed the first part over various sessions...
They've invalidated the flash there in my opinion, let alone the onsight!
If you're happy climbing up and down each time it's legit in my opinion. Say there was a big ledge by the second bolt, it'd obviously be legit (and potentially good tactics, depending on the route) to climb up, clip a couple of high draws above the ledge then down climb to the ledge for a rest before questing on to glory. If it's legit for ledges then why is downclimbing to the ground any different?
Hmm surely the difference is if you untie from the rope at all. I.e. if you're going back down to a ledge or other rest position yes that's totally legit as you're always on the route, whereas if you come down to the ground and untie, have a cup of tea, go for a wee, etc. and then go back up with very high draws clipped that's quite different non?
Definitely time for a thread split.
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Downclimbing, preclipped draws and so on all feels a little underhand and unsatisfying (unless it's just a few moves when it seems logical). We're always going to stretch these things for really hard ascents to eke out every percentage.
Getting into debates about clipping and draws on sport routes all seems so arbitrary though. I don't honesty care if Steve toproped Rainman, it's still 9b! It's a little different on trad where placing and clipping is an inherent part of the game, but on sport it's really just an inconvenience that gets in the way of the physical challenge.
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For all the reasons that Remus gave, downclimbing should be fine. Doing the downclimbs on a different day is obviously bullshit and doing it after the fact is also pretty bollocks.
But I can't think of that many situations where it would benefit the average punter. I'm not sure there are that many routes that it would help with where the same advantage couldn't be gained by extending clips to clip faster and/or from better holds.
Grumbling about a bit of downclimbing smacks of grumbling about kneebars - people increasingly see sport climbs as a prescribed sequence of moves and clips, to be completed in a pre-ordained order, rather than bits of rock to be overcome via the solution of least resistance.
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Like grumbling about grades? 😁
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I know a bloke who did Liquid Ambar first 4? clips in. First two are high anyway so 4 is basically half the route. I questioned it when he was up there and he said he was gonna do the down climb after which puzzled me. What if you do the route then slip off the last move of the down climb after and go home, have you done it or not? Then it rains for weeks. I don’t know if he did the down climb at all.
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Like grumbling about grades? 😁
Indeed. Much like grumbling about trolling/bullying.
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I know a bloke who did Liquid Ambar first 4? clips in. First two are high anyway so 4 is basically half the route. I questioned it when he was up there and he said he was gonna do the down climb after which puzzled me. What if you do the route then slip off the last move of the down climb after and go home, have you done it or not? Then it rains for weeks. I don’t know if he did the down climb at all.
Didn't Robins do it like this? The footage of him on it in Welsh Connections has about 4 preclipped. I remember clocking it but also not caring as he climbs that section in about 5 seconds.
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p.s. maybe worth a thread split to stop Ian's thread going off track?
+1 (Sorry Ian)
Grumbling about a bit of downclimbing smacks of grumbling about kneebars
If you say so.
For all the reasons that Remus gave, downclimbing should be fine.
The reason that down climbing to the ground, getting off the climb, unclipping, going home, etc., is arguably the same as down climbing to a different point on the climb?
Whether or not it's kosher is obviously not for me to decide. I'd just like to say that I think the whole thing is ridiculous and adds a, completely unnecessary, grey area to climbing terms, which will always be exploited, as we have already seen in this thread.
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Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.
What if there's a low crux with an awkward second clip? To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.
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To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.
This is the key bit that muddies the waters with climbing to the ground though innit, you could climb down to the ground, untie and have a kip for a few hours before your red point. If this was the case at a ledge on a route and you find someone to belay you whilst you have a sleep then fair enough.
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Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.
It's only the getting off the climb part that I don't agree with
What if there's a low crux with an awkward second clip? To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.
tbh if there's decking potential I'd probably just clip stick it from the go :worms: otherwise I'll just have to get that section completely nailed :)
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Floor is lava... :)
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Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.
What if there's a low crux with an awkward second clip? To me it seems natural that you could make the awkward second clip, down climb to the ground, recover a bit and then bosh through.
In what world would that even help you? How would downclimbing through the crux of the route be easier than just carrying on?
Although as 36C says, I'd just clip stick it anyway.
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Love it that the UKB Crew will spend hours examining every pixel for the faintest hint of a blade of grass brushing someone's non tucked in t-shirt on the boulders, but once a rope's involved then it's fine to touch down have 2 massages, 3 cream scones and review every clip on utube before continuing with the onsight effort... ;D
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Like any of the sport climbing scrawns eat cream scones ::) ::)
Just seems a bit weird that a certain amount of down climbing is ok (to a ledge), but if you down climb to the ground it's suddenly not ok.
This. It's all very UKC-style pedantry, being overly fixated on the letter of the ethical "law" rather than the spirit of it. Are you doing the climb under your own steam? Are you solely using the gear for protection and not weighting it? Are you sticking to the true line and not escaping? Does it feel like a voyage of discovery (for the onsight) regardless if you go up and down a bit? Is the 2 massages / 3 spinach-wrapped sardines / quick Zoom consultation with Lattice option infinitely more interesting and exciting than sticking a rope down it?? Of course it fucking is....
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Best bit of this thread is boulderers arguing about something that mostly affects trad onsighting. I watched caff downclimb half the leap on boat to naxos in about 07, pretty sure he finished off the onsight a few years later. I'll leave it to those who find 6cs scary to tell him he redpointed it.
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When I was in to sports climbing which is probably before half the people on here were born. Comedy at Kilnsey had a difficult second clip, so the deal was to have it pre clipped on the red point. Once you had completed the red point, you climbed up clipped it, pulled some slack through and jumped off to ground, then hobbled around for a few days.
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When I was in to sports climbing which is probably before half the people on here were born. Comedy at Kilnsey had a difficult second clip, so the deal was to have it pre clipped on the red point. Once you had completed the red point, you climbed up clipped it, pulled some slack through and jumped off to ground, then hobbled around for a few days.
Showing your age referring to it as sports climbing webbo! :tease: Seriously though, that's deranged.
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No that was showing at my age sometimes you type the wrong letterz.
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I watched caff downclimb half the leap on boat to naxos in about 07, pretty sure he finished off the onsight a few years later.
Cheating bastard.
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Best bit of this thread is boulderers arguing about something that mostly affects trad onsighting. I watched caff downclimb half the leap on boat to naxos in about 07, pretty sure he finished off the onsight a few years later. I'll leave it to those who find 6cs scary to tell him he redpointed it.
Only former boulderers here at the minute. Everyone's clipped in nowadays :P
and I hope you don't think any of my comments have anything to do with trad climbing.
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Best bit of this thread is boulderers arguing about something that mostly affects trad onsighting. I watched caff downclimb half the leap on boat to naxos in about 07, pretty sure he finished off the onsight a few years later. I'll leave it to those who find 6cs scary to tell him he redpointed it.
Stubs should do it, Caff already thinks he's a cyber wanker :2thumbsup:
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I don't think it particularly emerged out of trad. Isn't it often simply about safety? Very often on UK lime you're straight into hard bouldery climbing right off the deck, often above far from perfect landings (obviously the catwalk epitomises this but it's true elsewhere). Who wants to repeatedly make some slightly dodgy clip that's probably halfway through a hard move?
Personally, I always thought it was fine, within reason. But it did get ridiculous, not only all the variations already mentioned but it seemed to become ok that someone had done the downclimb and you didn't even have to do it yourself.
Likewise, on trad, if I can get back to the ground without weighting the gear in anyway then it seems fine to leave the gear and rope clipped ... but only for that day. You have to start again if you need to come back.
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I watched caff downclimb half the leap on boat to naxos in about 07, pretty sure he finished off the onsight a few years later.
Cheating bastard.
On a separate note he's known for knocking multiple sessions off siege projects during verbal discourse. :lol:
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Bit perplexed and entertained by all these climbing up/down/4 clips in tales :blink:
I feel like this:
OS: leave the ground and don't come back or you've cocked it.
Flash: Leave the ground with your mate shouting crap beta constantly but don't come back or you've cocked it.
RP: Pre-clipping obviously legit to stop groundfalls from a boulder start because this is sport climbing but if you've got clips in that are purely for energy saving rather than to prevent hitting the deck then you've cocked it.
Is this not how 99% of climbers play the game?
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Personally I prefer "don't fall off or you've cocked it". Only allowing certain type of down climbing seems weird.
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Falling off is what ends an os or flash. The ground has nothing to do with it.
It's murkier with rp's as obvs you're falling off a lot. I'd say the whole ascent including clips has to be free (so not weighting gear), which implies any downclimbing has to be done before every rp.
Preclipping to save energy rather than safety is way worse, anything after the second bolt is basically invalid except in exceptional circumstances imo. Claiming its ok as sport climbing is all about the moves is balls, unless you consider a tr ascent to be just as valid.
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I concur with Remus. Being allowed to downclimb to the ledge 1cm off the floor but not the floor is absurd. We're not bouldering here.
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I concur with Remus. Being allowed to downclimb to the ledge 1cm off the floor but not the floor is absurd. We're not bouldering here.
I agree with this, but if you want to do this to allow you to have a high clip or some gear pre placed on your next go from the ground (which is what I was aiming at with my previous post but didn’t explain properly), what time limit would you place on this?
I remember there being a vid of Dave Mac on Trauma in N Wales where he looked to downclimb about 2/3 of the route to the ground to get a high runner in. No issues with this, sort of behaviour, it looked totally nails.
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Claiming its ok as sport climbing is all about the moves is balls, unless you consider a tr ascent to be just as valid.
Why shouldn't we? I'd find it personally unsatisfying, and there are lots of routes where leading them is logistically easier, but I really don't see the issue if someone wants to toprope something clean.
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Falling off is what ends an os or flash. The ground has nothing to do with it.
Agreed. I can't understand why downclimbing would invalidate an onsight, especially on trad.
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There is no floor outdoors. The idea that reversing a move is OK anywhere on the route except when you touch "the floor" is an indoor rule that has spread to outdoor crags because big city yuppies modern times grumble grumble all gumbies who did not start by scrambling in the great outdoors frhmp grumble.
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if you want to do this to allow you to have a high clip or some gear pre placed on your next go from the ground (which is what I was aiming at with my previous post but didn’t explain properly), what time limit would you place on this?
Well I'd want my gear or ropes back so I reckon there's a natural limiter there for most people! (I should point out in the example I gave Caff took his gear out on the way back down rather than leaving it insitu for a decade :lol:) I'd have no objection to someone "taking a look", climbing down, belaying their mate, then smashing on.. though obviously it's unusual. It's still a "natural" way to go climbing IMO, which for me is I think the key - is it a fairly natural thing to do given the situation or is it a contrived absurdity? So climbing back down to the ground from the hard-to-read crux after 5m of relatively easy but pumpy ground on your o/s go feels quite "natural", as does clipping the awkwardly-placed 3rd bolt then reversing before a RP go*. Conversely RPing with half of Kilnsey/Malham on a toprope then trying to do a 20m downclimb afterwards does not feel like a "natural" part of climbing to me, it seems totally absrud, so I can't imagine I'd do it. Dare I say it, Fiend might be right about the spirit of the "law" being the key here...
* E.g. I think I did this on both Zeke and R'n'P, you're going to downclimb a few moves anyway as the clipping position isn't the climbing position, so why not just go a few moves further to the ledge/floor. On 30 is the new 40 I clipped the hard-to-clip bolt then reversed to the ledge below but didn't bother going the extra few meters of easy choss to the floor because I couldn't be bothered and I was in a no hander anyway, but I'd have no objection to anyone going back to the floor each time.
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The Thing magazine, Feb '94:
(http://adamlong.co.uk/images/IMG_4423.jpg)
Not much has changed! Highly amused by stories of people projecting the downclimb after the redpoint. Stay classy sportclimbing! :lol:
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There was a time a few years back when people would have rope clipped in up to undercuts before crux for Unjustified. This is a massive advantage. They might have done the down climb once sessions before…..
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The Thing magazine, Feb '94:
The pic did not show up for me, but here is a direct link http://adamlong.co.uk/images/IMG_4423.jpg (http://adamlong.co.uk/images/IMG_4423.jpg)
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Falling off is what ends an os or flash. The ground has nothing to do with it.
Agreed. I can't understand why downclimbing would invalidate an onsight, especially on trad.
I was more thinking about sport there really Andy, but for me personally if I come back to the ground (aside from maybe in the first few moves because I've totally read the start wrong or whatever) then I think of it as 'ground up' because a big part of the OS/Flash for me is figuring it out whilst dealing with the growing pump. For me it's all about the first go and if I do 5 laps up and down the first 10 metres or more whilst having lovely long rests on the floor in between then it's not the first go anymore in my personal standards.
I appreciate nobody has to care what I think :great: It's just how I like to play.
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What about downclimbing to an enormous ledge you can stand on halfway up the route? The ground is an enormous ledge, just at the bottom of the route.
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The Thing magazine, Feb '94:
(http://adamlong.co.uk/images/IMG_4423.jpg)
Not much has changed! Highly amused by stories of people projecting the downclimb after the redpoint. Stay classy sportclimbing! :lol:
and here's me naively thinking that sport climbing was a clean step up from all the questionable trad antics.
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Morality of a back alley tomcat.
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The Thing magazine, Feb '94:
(http://adamlong.co.uk/images/IMG_4423.jpg)
Not much has changed! Highly amused by stories of people projecting the downclimb after the redpoint. Stay classy sportclimbing! :lol:
and here's me naively thinking that sport climbing was a clean step up from all the questionable trad antics.
This is what comes of years of swinging about on the likes of Demon Wall Roof where the floor is always in easy reach. For bouldering, your go ends when you touch the floor or something (a spotter/neighbouring boulder) that is out of bounds. That makes sense for bouldering.
Roped climbing has different rules. Your go ends when you weight the rope. That's it.
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The more caveats you have to add to your ascent, the more people will raise eyebrows.
Obviously there's no rules, unlike in a competition, where I'm sure down climbing to the ground would be considered the end of your go?
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Nowt worse than people raising eyebrows...
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Clearly readjusting on the holds blows the onsight.
Failed to grasp them right first go.
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Roped climbing has different rules. Your go ends when you weight the rope. That's it.
Ah sweet, so I can deck and be in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, but still on for the onsight, as long as there was no rope stretch. Good to know ;D
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Roped climbing has different rules. Your go ends when you weight the rope. That's it.
Ah sweet, so I can deck and be in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, but still on for the onsight, as long as there was no rope stretch. Good to know ;D
Your darn tooting. Go climbing with Ben. He'll always try to preserve your onsight.
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When I was in to sports climbing which is probably before half the people on here were born. Comedy at Kilnsey had a difficult second clip, so the deal was to have it pre clipped on the red point. Once you had completed the red point, you climbed up clipped it, pulled some slack through and jumped off to ground, then hobbled around for a few days.
Would a pad invalidate your ascent / descent then?
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Would a pad invalidate your ascent / descent then?
If you've ever climbed with Fiend you'd know the answer.
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If you hit the pad French 7c, if you miss the pad or roll your ankle E6, if you're not too pumped Font 6c / 7a (split grade if down climbing the hard bit - bearing in mind that the frictional forces from the rope on the way down is equivalent to -10kg pulley set up on the fingerboard).
Not sure how to go about if ice cream van is in the layby. Probably have to walk here still connected to belayer for the ascent to still remain live...
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Roped climbing has different rules. Your go ends when you weight the rope. That's it.
Ah sweet, so I can deck and be in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, but still on for the onsight, as long as there was no rope stretch. Good to know ;D
Your darn tooting. Go climbing with Ben. He'll always try to preserve your onsight.
:lol: :lol: I can't tell if your comment is because of the spanish belay I gave you on Sticky Wicket or that I never go leading.
Just don't let the ambulance crew cut the rope or you'll have to downclimb from bolt 3 again.