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the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: remus on June 02, 2021, 08:04:25 am

Title: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: remus on June 02, 2021, 08:04:25 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9KfE0hOcSo
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Wood FT on June 02, 2021, 11:15:54 am
Trance. Doylo - What's that first track? I went to Gatecrasher for my 18th and that song is my only memory, please tell me it!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Will Hunt on June 02, 2021, 11:52:08 am
Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 02, 2021, 11:59:26 am
Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

There’s enough send videos in the world  ;) Thought a failure video might be bit different .

Trance. Doylo - What's that first track? I went to Gatecrasher for my 18th and that song is my only memory, please tell me it!

We Are Alive - Paul van Dyk
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: teestub on June 02, 2021, 12:09:14 pm
Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

There’s enough send videos in the world  ;) Thought a failure video might be bit different .

Did you give in to the knee rubber?!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 02, 2021, 12:16:36 pm
Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

There’s enough send videos in the world  ;) Thought a failure video might be bit different .

Did you give in to the knee rubber?!

No never tried it. Don’t think I’ll climb in there again.. Makes me feel a bit nauseous when I walk past now.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: 36chambers on June 02, 2021, 12:36:11 pm
Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

It was about 10 minutes after I finished watching it that I thought "hang on a second, did I see the send footage or not?"

Good video as aways Doylo, it's amazing how quickly the 30 minutes went, and the training montage with that Sleepwalker track got my very psyched for some cranking :strongbench:
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: teestub on June 02, 2021, 12:50:41 pm

No never tried it. Don’t think I’ll climb in there again.. Makes me feel a bit nauseous when I walk past now.

Hope it still felt like a positive experience when you did. Great vid as always!

Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: tomtom on June 02, 2021, 01:02:11 pm
Great vid Doylo. Loved it.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Bradders on June 02, 2021, 02:32:18 pm
Loved it, great to see the effort involved and commitment. Training scenes likewise had me well psyched.

I'm so conflicted about the knee. On the one hand I love finding new beta and feeling like I'm bringing things down to my level, but on the other I think Danny's comment of "you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on. Great attitude to have.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: abarro81 on June 02, 2021, 03:00:53 pm
"you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on

Can tell you're a boulderer, I go climbing to get pumped!  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 02, 2021, 03:16:44 pm
Loved it, great to see the effort involved and commitment. Training scenes likewise had me well psyched.

I'm so conflicted about the knee. On the one hand I love finding new beta and feeling like I'm bringing things down to my level, but on the other I think Danny's comment of "you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on. Great attitude to have.

I think that is a pretty bad attitude that holds climbing back. Climbing is about figuring out the easiest way to get up a piece of rock. People who don't like that can compete in finger boarding.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Bradders on June 02, 2021, 03:20:41 pm
"you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on

Can tell you're a boulderer, I go climbing to get pumped!  :lol:

All moves are hard when you're pumped though!  ;)

Also fun fact; just watched the first ascent footage and Mule actually tries to use a kneebar on his original sequence....37 seconds in:

https://youtu.be/o6wmxzL6Cg8
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 02, 2021, 03:33:19 pm
"you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on

Can tell you're a boulderer, I go climbing to get pumped!  :lol:

All moves are hard when you're pumped though!  ;)

Also fun fact; just watched the first ascent footage and Mule actually tries to use a kneebar on his original sequence....37 seconds in:

https://youtu.be/o6wmxzL6Cg8

Ye maybe he would have done it that way with rubber. He would have done the FA Danny’s way if he’d thought of it I reckon.

No never tried it. Don’t think I’ll climb in there again.. Makes me feel a bit nauseous when I walk past now.

Hope it still felt like a positive experience when you did. Great vid as always!



Not been on the Orme much, I like to hang out at places with no people these days but had a good wee social with the Sheffield pensioners. Moony was there in his plush expensive van, 30 years ago he used to sleep in the Cave with the Pen Tywyn Patrol.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 02, 2021, 03:33:35 pm
..
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Bradders on June 02, 2021, 03:54:48 pm
I think that is a pretty bad attitude that holds climbing back. Climbing is about figuring out the easiest way to get up a piece of rock. People who don't like that can compete in finger boarding.

All personal isn't it, just different types of arbitrary challenge at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 03, 2021, 10:03:40 am
I'm so conflicted about the knee. On the one hand I love finding new beta and feeling like I'm bringing things down to my level, but on the other I think Danny's comment of "you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on. Great attitude to have.

I think that is a pretty bad attitude that holds climbing back. Climbing is about figuring out the easiest way to get up a piece of rock. People who don't like that can compete in finger boarding.

In what way is it a bad attitude that is holding climbing back”? (and is it even (free) climbing?) I’m beginning to wonder!

I think it is a valid individual (and heartfelt) response by Doyle and Danny that using kneepads has spoiled a climb. It could even be viewed that kneepads are a type of aid like resting on a piece of gear.

As Joble said to Barrows: “If that’s climbing then I’m not interested” and that is a legitimate stance to take. It’s interesting that people are noting their use of kneebars or not on problems like Ben’s in the ukc logbooks so there is a reasonably widespread recognition of the significant difference kneepads/bars can have to the difficulty and even character of a problem.

I see no issue in describing and grading things with and without kneepads/bars at Parisellas though entirely different names would be a step too far. I don’t see how that might be “holding climbing back either”.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: abarro81 on June 03, 2021, 10:21:59 am
As Joble said to Barrows: “If that’s climbing then I’m not interested” and that is a legitimate stance to take. It’s interesting that people are noting their use of kneebars or not on problems like Ben’s in the ukc logbooks so there is a reasonably widespread recognition of the significant difference kneepads/bars can have to the difficulty and even character of a problem.

Appropriately, if technique elimination is climbing then I'm not interested. (James' comment was actually about tall people lanking a move IIRC, but it covers every sequence he doesn't like or that varies from what he used I think!) I go climbing to climb things. If I just wanted to do hard moves I'd be an indoor climber and stick to a board. I'd fuckin' love someone to go do the big 8b+ on the right of Ramirole and tell me that they weren't interested in covering their knees with something  :lol:

The kneebars on Bens are fine without pads, making all discussion of eliminating them worse than pinches wall, which at least eliminates holds.


I see no issue in describing and grading things with and without kneepads/bars at Parisellas though entirely different names would be a step too far. I don’t see how that might be “holding climbing back either”.

I still think that the stuff in Parisella's should get new names, preferably ones like Pill-gurnage, Poo-ferino, Direct-a-slut, Tug-your-atrocity etc.

It might hold climbing back by holding people's skills back; e.g. it sounds like one big difference between Buster and Jorge on FRFM was that Jorge is a knee wizard. I remember a conversation years ago where someone (Tim P I think) suggested that since I mostly bouldered to train for routes, why didn't I boulder without knees as it would be better training... A few years later while only just getting up my hardest ever onsights due to emergency knee use I was reminded that this would have been a terrible plan!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 03, 2021, 12:22:14 pm
It gives me mixed emotions. I use and like kneepads, often they only make a marginal difference like on Hubble allegedly (still 9a they say?). I’ve got a few extremely marginal scums on Liquid Ambar which give you 2% or something .  On longer stuff they may bring the difficulty down but usually doesn’t feel like it’s ruined it. Barrows level of kneebarring does look a bit horrible but I’ve never seen anyone else do it to the same extent (good skills no doubt just makes your penis shrink up a bit watching). With Louis I’d never tried the knee potential (hadn’t been done with it then) and was tied up with the history, move etc.  Unlike Hubble etc it knocks a few grades off and the whole premise of the problem has always been that 7c+ move so without that just seems pointless to me. Tim Blake did it recently the original way, I’m guessing it’ll still get ascents with and without until a few generations time when all the old school people have died off / retired and kids are getting kneepads with their first pair of shoes.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Nike Air on June 03, 2021, 10:00:55 pm
Really is a tricky one.  :worms:

Chris, who found the knee bar on Louis?

I watched a lad successfully do progress (8c+ at Kilnsey) yesterday and he utilized two hands off rests using knee bars. By the 4th and 5th clip (or somewhere near those), this is essentially smack bang in the middle of the hard climbing and looks a game changer is making it way less of a power endurance route.
I don't think anyone has ever tried these before so he's approached with fresh eyes and found a way for him to be able to do the route.
There is one high on the route that I used without a pad but the hard climbing is essentially over by then.

From what I hear the sequence on Rainman (9b at malham) has been changed a bit by this same. Lad. Knee bars being found in a few places (not just the one Ste Mac used) and who know it may even bring the grade down significantly?

Some knee bars are hard to use and but like everything can be trained. What then probably happens is that you spend more time looking for shin size gaps than ever before... 


Ps Im guilty of finding knee bars on things so I'm not sure what to think now.
Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Rob F on June 03, 2021, 11:44:00 pm
What would the police do if they caught you driving just using your knees along the A55 all the way to the Cave of Justice???
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 04, 2021, 06:24:45 am
Really is a tricky one.  :worms:

Chris, who found the knee bar on Louis?

I first heard of Ned using it; he didn’t  reach the lip but I think he had his hands too far back. Then Ally Smith has tried it and Joe Lawson did it. Ironically Barrows shin was too long to fit it (he’s a rubber skyscraper). 


Quote
Ps Im guilty of finding knee bars on things so I'm not sure what to think now.
Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Ye.. Interesting as you seem to be one of the most prolific kneebarrers and you still feel like that. Think you’re right about side of the discovery/emotional attachment, I discovered the knee on Trigger using jeans initially, I used them on Directors with a pad and it still felt pretty cool and tricky, a grade and half easier but still quite flowy. Barrows got a double kneebar no hands rest on it which takes away the PE flowy nature of it but tires the core I’m sure.
Strange thing is if I’d have done the FA of Louis and discovered the knee I wouldn’t have thought twice about using it but after seeing the FA and loads of wads on it, plus sporadic attempts on the move over the years it just finds a place in your psyche I guess.  If you have zero investment in it just wack the knee in and it’s just another polished limestone roof that you’ll never think about again.
Somethings they completely change and ruin and sometimes it’s just a little help. Like on Isla de Encanta - the new knee is really marginal and nails and doesn’t ruin the problem ie knock grades off it. With Louis it basically kills it. It’s not the main reason I’m not gonna try it again though. The injuries and lack of desire to go in there again have done that.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Nike Air on June 04, 2021, 10:55:56 am
 So this Louis knee also needs someone with long arms or wide shoulders?

At least No one has used a book and a pad yet... 😂

I remember doing trigger cut with Tyler the original way and then being gutted that a knee had been found but then not being able to fit it. (maybe I need a trip down with a suitable softback!)

Thing is you'd never go back on something that you've done sans pad to the re do it with one would you? Or maybe you would?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 04, 2021, 11:24:23 am
It might hold climbing back by holding people's skills back; e.g. it sounds like one big difference between Buster and Jorge on FRFM was that Jorge is a knee wizard.

The strong and gifted climber Mateusz Haładaj has been trying FRFM for quite a while and he has apparently tried all the kneebars the combined might of Ondra, Rullo and Graham have found and cannot make use of single one of them.

Likewise I tried to use the kneebar Dave Graham found at the last bolt of Geminis (on his onsight no less) but I am neither skillful enough nor sufficiently strong in my calfs and toes.

I remember a conversation years ago where someone (Tim P I think) suggested that since I mostly bouldered to train for routes, why didn't I boulder without knees as it would be better training... A few years later while only just getting up my hardest ever onsights due to emergency knee use I was reminded that this would have been a terrible plan!

Same for me, on one of my hardest onsight ever my unclad knee automatically snuck into a marginal and very painful kneebar after the hard part, allowing me to shake out enough to get to the top. Without having spend enough time to automate the movement it would not have happend and I would surely have fallen. Indeed, later in the week I saw a much better climber get to the same point on the onsight, miss the kneebar and hilariously pump out on the 6b climbing afterwards.

Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 04, 2021, 11:30:46 am

Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Surely the only appropriate feeling when someone finds a better sequence is shame? Shame for lack of vision and ability?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Nike Air on June 04, 2021, 12:53:10 pm

Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Surely the only appropriate feeling when someone finds a better sequence is shame? Shame for lack of vision and ability?

Think I tick all three boxes
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Bradders on June 04, 2021, 01:34:55 pm

Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Surely the only appropriate feeling when someone finds a better sequence is shame? Shame for lack of vision and ability?

See, this is where we differ. I would think, in the case of Doylo having done the Louis move the harder way, despite not having done the problem, the appropriate emotion is pride.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 04, 2021, 02:51:56 pm
Quote
So this Louis knee also needs someone with long arms or wide shoulders?

It’s too spanned for midgets with or without. No midgets ever done it. JackPal tried it some ridiculous way, using the knee to get set up but then ridiculous release to lip.


Quote
See, this is where we differ. I would think, in the case of Doylo having done the Louis move the harder way, despite not having done the problem, the appropriate emotion is pride.

Always a good feeling to do it and feel strong but was all for nothing in end. Did move over 40 times on own. Crux to end over 20 times .  Once from a move back but hardly ever close adding two more moves. Took me too long to get there, 18 seconds to do 3 moves (!) had to do loads of shuffling. Makes Shark look like Speedy Gonzales.  Watching other beasts they got to the crux 4/5 seconds quicker. Cave snail.

Kneepads do make an extremely satisfying crackling noise when you chuck them on the bonfire.

 
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: MischaHY on June 04, 2021, 04:11:34 pm
Surely the answer to the question of 'should I use the knee' is 'does it make the problem/route absolutely wank'. If not, smash on the kneepad. If so, then probably it's more fun without.

Example: I found a kneebar on Battle Cat in Frankenjura that means you can do the first crux completely static and probably downgrades the route. I probably won't use that kneebar because it takes the fun out. Good Moves for Bad Beta?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 04, 2021, 04:21:56 pm
as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: 36chambers on June 04, 2021, 04:37:32 pm
as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Are you saying that you shouldn't take the original pre-kneepad grade on a climb if you climb it without a kneepad?

If I went and climbed Louis Armstrong without the knee bar I'd certainly take the 8B tick. (unless it blatantly apparent it's not 8B for my body size, but that's a separate issue entirely.)
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: AMorris on June 04, 2021, 05:17:24 pm
I can totally appreciate how varying beta can totally change your psyche for a problem. I had a similar experience on Flick of the Wrist. The thing that attracted me to the problem was the low foot power move off the pinch, having seen Chris Davies and Tyler smash it. I found out after trying it that there is a heelhook out left, which looks like it turns that sequence into a set of unpleasant lurchy moves. I vowed that I would do it the original (I think?) way since that was the move that inspired me to get on it in the first place.

You get out of climbing what you put in. No one gives you a medal for doing things the "hard" way, but nor do you get one for finding ways to get your weight off your fingers. All you get is a bit of satisfaction at doing a move in a way which you found enjoyable.

This debate reminds me of the eternal shouting match between guitarists. You have two camps screaming at each other, one saying "this shredder has no feeling", and the others saying "speed doesn't mean no feeling". The existence of both of these groups has not in any way held the progress of guitar back.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 04, 2021, 05:51:27 pm
It’s all just killing time til you die.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: abarro81 on June 04, 2021, 05:59:27 pm
Battle cat is 8c anyway so noone should be taking 8c+  :lol: that first crux is probably the easiest of the 3 too so I doubt a knee makes it b+
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Bradders on June 04, 2021, 06:03:47 pm
as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: tomtom on June 04, 2021, 06:50:36 pm
It’s all just killing time til you die.

Amen brother.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: abarro81 on June 04, 2021, 07:00:02 pm
as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

Its not though. On both points. Just look at someone good like that Jorge chap.

On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: AMorris on June 04, 2021, 08:00:30 pm
as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

Its not though. On both points. Just look at someone good like that Jorge chap.

On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

Ever seen a gecko kneebarring its way up a wall? Nah me neither. Case closed.

sarcasm, if anyone was wondering
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: countyyoungin on June 04, 2021, 09:04:45 pm
Does anyone know how this knee bar worked? I’m around Llandudno tomorrow and having done the original method I’d be intrigued to try it out to see if I can do it this way. I know Joe’s a big lad and his body strength is probably better than mine so could be interesting to see if it works better for all.

I’ve also done sack shit in the way of knee bars, so I may also just be rubbish at them
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 04, 2021, 09:10:21 pm


On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

A mate did Brother from another mother (or similar, don't remember exactly) in Indian Creek as a layback. He took 8c instead of 7a+
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: 36chambers on June 04, 2021, 09:20:20 pm
as long as you don't take 8c+ for sticking with a bad sequence and as long as you know that climbing with suboptimal sequences will stifle your development as a climber, just do it!

Absolute nonsense. On both points.

Its not though. On both points. Just look at someone good like that Jorge chap.

On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

What's the craic if say Ondra and Megos swoop in to Malham, repeat Rainman and both confirm 9b, but then a week later someone else repeats it after finding 12 new kneebars and declares it only 8c. Do Steve, Ondra, and Megos have to hand back there 9b ticks?

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

I'm obviously of the opinion that any original sequeniest (pre and post kneebar downgrade) have climb 9b. Curious what others think about this?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Fiend on June 04, 2021, 09:33:52 pm
The pitfalls of over-fixation on ticking, taking, and attaining. A grade isn't there to "take" - it's there to give an approximate consensussed estimate of difficulty and thus challenge to a climber. Would Ste Megondra have climbed a 9b level of difficulty?? Obviously. It's only a question if one has a skewed perspective of the meaning of grades.

On a similar note I get where Doylog is coming from. There's some pretty polarised views around - "kneebars ruin historical climbs and should be banned" vs "kneebars are a brilliant advancement of technique that nullify previous ascents and any elimination of them should be banned". Both bollox of course, the truth as always is in between. They, including widespread kneepad usage, are another tool in the climbers arsenal, there to be used, but the desire for usage will depend on what the climber desires out of climbing. In Doylo's case it's obviously the beauty of the movement in the *ahem* Cave *lol* and the challenge of a sequence and that happens to be an inspiration without kneebarring. Just like Keen Youth and his desire to do his grit new routes without boulderpads, presumably for personal challenge and having the context of prior padless routes.

Similarly with both types of pads, the only issue is one of communication and description. Padded / padless split grades are logical, you know what challenge you are getting depending on the style you choose. Of course just like bouldering mats becoming entirely ubiquitous, current and future climbs will be done kneebarred, that will be the default challenge and description, and the barless challenge might not be described at all (or might be done later on who knows).



Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: remus on June 04, 2021, 10:20:53 pm
What's the craic if say Ondra and Megos swoop in to Malham, repeat Rainman and both confirm 9b, but then a week later someone else repeats it after finding 12 new kneebars and declares it only 8c. Do Steve, Ondra, and Megos have to hand back there 9b ticks?

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

I'm obviously of the opinion that any original sequeniest (pre and post kneebar downgrade) have climb 9b. Curious what others think about this?

You'd get the '8c with bad beta' tick  :whistle:

On a more serious note, I think people generally recognise and appreciate the difficulty of something that's been done even if an easier method is subsequently found. For example everyone knows Malc is a beast for doing Pilgrimage with his sequence even though a better sequence now exists.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 04, 2021, 10:32:27 pm
Does anyone know how this knee bar worked? I’m around Llandudno tomorrow and having done the original method I’d be intrigued to try it out to see if I can do it this way. I know Joe’s a big lad and his body strength is probably better than mine so could be interesting to see if it works better for all.

I’ve also done sack shit in the way of knee bars, so I may also just be rubbish at them

I bet it’ll be harder for you. In the time it takes you to wedge it in you’d be at the end the original way. Not like you found it too hard.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 04, 2021, 10:47:42 pm

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade. Also, Steve should in this hypothetical situation be a bit ashamed of himself for not finding better sequences after having spend ages on the route.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 05, 2021, 06:46:19 am

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade. Also, Steve should in this hypothetical situation be a bit ashamed of himself for not finding better sequences after having spend ages on the route.

Steve did put in a lot of time on one session trying to make the kneebar rest work but in the end wrote it off (I was belaying when he tried).

Talking to Haydn yesterday Eder gets a no hands from it and it helps on the  move above and he uses another kneebar higher up on Rainman that makes Steve’s go, go and go again move a lot easier. Apparently he uses some Spanish brand (black something ?) which like the new Sportiva one gives better knee coverage which make big difference on some of the new kneebars he is using. He is also some kind of knee genius.

It does sound like a proposed downgrade is in the offing if he ticks it (which sounds highly likely) especially given the short time that he has spent on the route and how high he’s got. Whether a downgrade sticks then depends if others can make these kneebars work for them which doesn’t sound like a given.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 05, 2021, 06:54:04 am
Oooo sounds like Steve might be starting his own bonfire soon  :ohmy:
Tiny bit more significant if RM comes down... I’d need to be put on suicide watch if that happened to me after 125 days on something.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: remus on June 05, 2021, 07:49:10 am
Steve did put in a lot of time on one session trying to make the kneebar rest work but in the end wrote it off (I was belaying when he tried).

Talking to Haydn yesterday Eder gets a no hands from it and it helps on the  move above and he uses another kneebar higher up on Rainman that makes Steve’s go, go and go again move a lot easier. Apparently he uses some Spanish brand (black something ?) which like the new Sportiva one gives better knee coverage which make big difference on some of the new kneebars he is using.

It's interesting that there's such a disparity in how much use they get out of the knee rest.

This is probably the knee pad you're talking about https://www.instagram.com/blak_pad/ They do look good but I don't think anyone in rifle would marvel at the knee coverage. The homemade pads that people wear have had good knee coverage for ~forever, poor knee coverage is mainly a thing with the more recently released pads like the send, and even then you can fairly easily wear those low on the leg for better knee coverage (leave the third strap undone).

Quote
He is also some kind of knee genius.

I do wonder how much of it is that he's putting the time in to try knees where people haven't bothered before. No doubt he's better than the average brit, but I can't imagine many people bother hoiking a pad up most routes at malham to spend half an hour fiddling around.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Fiend on June 05, 2021, 07:53:21 am

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade.

That "Yes obviously" better not be in reply to Steve Mac never climbing 9b, because that would some top quality gibberish if so  :o

A route has a grade, that grade describes the level of difficulty for the sequence used,  if you climbed that level of difficulty then you climbed that grade.  It's all about the actual meaning of the grade not taking it as some trophy.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 05, 2021, 08:50:18 am
Quote
He is also some kind of knee genius.
I do wonder how much of it is that he's putting the time in to try knees where people haven't bothered before. No doubt he's better than the average brit, but I can't imagine many people bother hoiking a pad up most routes at malham to spend half an hour fiddling around.

Sounds like a lot of factors come in to play as whether these ‘new’ kneebars offer benefit which is not just dependent on type of pad and how practised you are at them but also other factors as to whether they fit your style of climbing and knee length.

Ted told me that he’d tried out Eder’s kneebars on Progress. He said he’s too tall for the first one (which involves the second leg bracing the first leg in place!) The second involves 4 extra foot moves into and out of it in the middle of the redpoint crux and for him the recovery benefit was outweighed by the extra climbing to get in and out of the kneebar. Also Ted could only get 60% of his bodyweight from the kneebar whereas Josh can take both hands off though I don’t whether they were using the same types of pad or just that Josh is better at kneebarring.




Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 05, 2021, 09:04:25 am
It's all about the actual meaning of the grade not taking it as some trophy.

Top quality gibberish right there  :lol:
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: abarro81 on June 05, 2021, 09:20:38 am
A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade.

This.
Climbers climb routes. Routes have grades to compare the easiest method to other routes (in a similar style and in theory other styles but we all know that doesn't work that well). Ascents do not have grades hence no extra grades for bad sequences, climbing with wet holds, humid conditions, sending in 35 degree heat, onsighting etc... even though these are all obviously harder and more impressive.

So Steve would have climbed a sequence of moves worth 9b difficulty but not a route graded 9b. Bit like someone campusing 1-5-9 has done a sequence of 8B(?) difficulty but not done a "problem" graded 8B; boulderers get around this by grading eliminates (e.g. weedkiller footless, X without the arete etc) but routes this is lame so doesn't really happen. So the answer is that it depends on what "climbing 9b" means to you - Is it about climbing a sequence of moves of a certain difficulty or about climbing a piece of rock that's harder than pieces of rock given 9a+... For me Steve would not have climbed 9b but would have done 9b of climbing (same as of you drop the easy last move on a 9b you've done a 9b worth of climbing but not done a 9b).


Progress: Josh and Eder ditched the first knee as not worth it. Second looks good, notionally no hands but not no hands on rp, could be a downgrade to 8c? Hard to tell just watching people on it and no idea how leg length dependent it is so I'll defer to eder (and Josh when he does it)
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 05, 2021, 09:35:41 am
For what it is worth, I wasn't very impressed with the Blak Pad. Neither with the new Sportiva one.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Fiend on June 05, 2021, 10:20:31 am
For me Steve would not have climbed 9b but would have done 9b of climbing
Christ's balls have you borrowed an electron microscope off Littlefair for that pedantic hair-splitting?? He's climbed 9b climbing but not 9b... James Pearson climbed E8 climbing for Dark Side sans pads, but not E8... :blink: What about the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law??

Also: what happens if a route changes inadvertantly after you've done it and the grade drops?? You climb an 8b. A crimp flake falls off leave a resting jug, and it's now 8a. Did you never climb 8b?? What the hell did you do when you climbed it?? "Climbed a section of rock that temporarily had a level of difficulty equivalent to 8b....but didn't actually climb 8b"

Also Shark I'm eagerly awaiting your logical, watertight counter-argument to "the meaning of a grade is describing the difficulty of a section of climbing"  :blink:
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 05, 2021, 10:30:10 am
Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Rob F on June 05, 2021, 10:41:10 am
Not withstanding that it would probably come in as 8a+ if someone had got to the third bolt, traversed 4 moves into a 60% kneebar then got pumped getting back on line...
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Fultonius on June 05, 2021, 10:42:06 am
When will knee pads have a "Reebok Pump" style shin length compensator (or just a "novel pouch") built in?

Where does it all end?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: abarro81 on June 05, 2021, 10:49:08 am
It's almost as if using more words to describe things makes it more accurate.. like "Bob did the first 9b in the UK, but it was later downgraded to 9a+ with a new sequence". Unless you're falling into the trap of thinking that grades are more than they are (ironically you made this point then fell headfirst into the same trap, partly by thinking they should describe how hard the sequence used was, not how hard the easiest sequence is; this isn't how it works hence not taking conditions or wet holds into account, at least in theory). IMO the "spirit" of the law would be ste gets bonus points for climbing a 9b sequence but it's not like climbing a 9b that stays as 9b. Or if Josh downgrades my new route to 8c with better beta can I just say fuck it and "claim" 9a anyway? No I just fucked up.

Like I said, it's quite possible to, for example, fall off the easy last move and have done a 9b of climbing without having done a 9b route. Not sure how that's hard to understand? Any sport climber knows the feeling of having done, say, 8a worth of climbing but binned the top like a punter so not having done the route that's graded 8a (especially on hard for the grade routes)

Things which break and change are different because the 8b did exist at some point.. the 9b never really did it was just waiting for good beta ;) I have sympathy for things done pre-kneepad here (so maybe before somewhere in the 2000-2005 region), so the back-in-the-day ascent is obvs more impressive, but again that's only an issue if you attach too much importance to "taking" a grade. For Rainman this isn't the case, Steve just missed the best beta. Same as I did on progress. The rock and equipment haven't changed substantially since he did the Rainman FA. Of course it's also possible that 90% of people find the knees useless and too technical or morpho to get them to work so the route stays the same grade even if some ascentionists think it's easier. Again not an issue unless we think grades are more than an average opinion about how hard it is to climb a bit of rock.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 05, 2021, 11:06:29 am
Also Shark I'm eagerly awaiting your logical, watertight counter-argument to "the meaning of a grade is describing the difficulty of a section of climbing"  :blink:

Barrows and Jonas have said it all. Don't know why you have to add “meaning” as if the grade is embued with something else that’s mysterious and a section isn’t given a grade.

You can chose to use grades to describe sections or sequences but it is only the route or problem that is assigned a grade and that grade is for the easiest method for the notionally average climber arrived at by consensus.

And yes climbing the route/problem is the trophy and the bigger the grade the bigger the trophy. Winning a game with excessive effort doesn’t get you a bigger trophy but it is something to chat about in the match analysis.


Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Nike Air on June 05, 2021, 11:52:37 am
A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade.

Progress: Josh and Eder ditched the first knee as not worth it. Second looks good, notionally no hands but not no hands on rp, could be a downgrade to 8c? Hard to tell just watching people on it and no idea how leg length dependent it is so I'll defer to eder (and Josh when he does it)

Looked no hands on the red point I was watching.
Means you can stay in that shakeout for over a minute with also a bit of a handhold clock sequence involved at times.

Some routes do see many changes in their lifetime. Progress is one of them. Even the last year or was it the year before there was some issue with a new hold being created and then subsequently being filled in. It's the nature of North buttress unfortunately.
Maybe someone buy Ted a better knee pad and point out the position and he'll make them work.

 
It does pay to have an arsenal of different pads if you want to get serious, funny reading what some people think of various pads.
Jwi, what do you prefer?

Weirdly it seems to get more kudos finding a knee than actually doing a brick hard move. Guess that's just people suddenly thinking it's more of a possibility for them if that particular route was on their radar. Maybe?

I tried rainman whilst ste was involved in red point.
Think I'd just done batshadow so it was next on the radar.
We compared sequences as ste was interested if he'd missed anything. I came up with pretty much the same sequence. It's climbed annoyingly wrong handed on every hold from what I recall.

When my finger is better I'm keen to go back up there and see what the odd knee scum does. From the video clip I've seen Eder uses a different hand hold early on too what opens up a new window of sequence.
As to the knees on it Josh said to me he can't use them as his calves are not strong enough yet. They both have different sequences now from what I gather.
Its a type of route that's kind of 3 D in that there are lumps and bumps all over to try and utilize.

Anyway a bit of a ramble. Back to decorating now.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Rob F on June 05, 2021, 12:20:35 pm
It definitely seems like there's a market for Lattice to employ a kneebar specialist coach???

It would also be handy for the BMC to do an educational vid of how a pro kneebar climber and an anti kneebar climber could have an amicable day at the crag without ending up having a punch up in the pub following...
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Fiend on June 05, 2021, 07:14:14 pm
It's almost as if using more words to describe things makes it more accurate.. like "Bob did the first 9b in the UK, but it was later downgraded to 9a+ with a new sequence".

So he DID do the 9b after all?? Excellent stuff, I agree. I can't really argue with that, but it's been a good laugh chaps  :smirk:

P.S. I used my first ever proper kneebar on a route the other day. Pretty crucial to climb it at the given grade (still a bit of a sandbag). No kneepad, minor grazes. HTH  :-[


Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: 36chambers on June 05, 2021, 09:09:28 pm
Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.

Just whack an anchor by that 5th bolt and job's a good 'un.

Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 06, 2021, 07:00:54 am
If Eder downgrades it to 9a+ but the next few blokes/gals can’t get all the knees and say it’s 9b does Eder still only ‘take’ 9a+?

‘What ya taking m8?’
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Fultonius on June 06, 2021, 08:49:16 am
Are we not straying onto some well trodden paths here, akin to pure splitter cracks in the U.S. (Indian creek etc.) whereby, you may have a 5.12 thing finger crack, that's 5.11 for folks with super skinny fingers?

It then gets the average grade with a caveat about certain morphology reducing the grade.

That's said, shin length, while being important is maybe secondary to technique and familiarity? Which pushes me to the "it's 9a+ and the other ascentionists are just lacking...
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Rob F on June 06, 2021, 08:53:26 am
I'm sure these 9a+/b kneebars will be perfectly tolerable if the suitors bring along their best cricket pads to the playing field...
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: remus on June 06, 2021, 09:09:00 am
If Eder downgrades it to 9a+ but the next few blokes/gals can’t get all the knees and say it’s 9b does Eder still only ‘take’ 9a+?

‘What ya taking m8?’

Just means he's climbed rainman and thought it was 9a+, but everyone else who's done it thought 9b. Just the usual process of grades going up and down as a route gets more ascents. Could be that the knees are a game changer and even Eder's grandma can get a no-hands and knit a doily on the knee, or it could turn out to be super knacky/morpho and no one else can get it to work, just needs more ascents before the grade settles down.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 06, 2021, 10:58:59 am
Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.

Just whack an anchor by that 5th bolt and job's a good 'un.

Yes.

This is rarely done except at the very highest levels though.... (Alex Huber and Arnaud Petit, we are looking at you)
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 06, 2021, 11:14:22 am
Jwi, what do you prefer?

The big Send pad, but I am no aficionado. My mate loved the Blak Pad and immediately sold his send pad after trying them the first time – I liked the closing mechanism in theory but in practice I could not get them to stick. Garro are well designed but has rubbish rubber imho, La Sportiva doesn't stick to my leg without spray-glue and gaffa tape but seem high quality otherwise, the third Spanish brand (name escapes me) is good but the rubber is too thick unless you are planning to kneebar a spike.

Unless the rock is sharp I find that short pants and chalk on the leg is maybe best if there is only one knee bar on the route.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Wellsy on June 06, 2021, 11:52:57 am
Maybe grades don't matter and it was all about the friends/acquaintances/dubious bastards/hated rivals we made along the way
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 06, 2021, 08:33:49 pm
If Eder downgrades it to 9a+ but the next few blokes/gals can’t get all the knees and say it’s 9b does Eder still only ‘take’ 9a+?

‘What ya taking m8?’

Just means he's climbed rainman and thought it was 9a+, but everyone else who's done it thought 9b. Just the usual process of grades going up and down as a route gets more ascents. Could be that the knees are a game changer and even Eder's grandma can get a no-hands and knit a doily on the knee, or it could turn out to be super knacky/morpho and no one else can get it to work, just needs more ascents before the grade settles down.

Quite. A climber will often find a route a grade easier for them for any number of reasons  but usually because they are tall bastards
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 06, 2021, 08:53:29 pm
Maybe Eder’s the climber having the most fun.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: spidermonkey09 on June 06, 2021, 08:54:39 pm
Eder is a knee genius. From his description of them one would be forgiven for thinking they're all piss easy jug kneebars but they definitely aren't!  :lol: He's also using a different, more leftwards sequence on Rainman I believe which Steve (and Josh) identified but decided not to use because it became much more plausible to traverse to the Rainshadow ledge for a rest if you went this way. Apologies if any of the above is wrong. (check with Steve shark!)

It's great the shakeup Eder is giving the scene in Yorkshire and changing the way people look at the routes (He is unfeasibly good at kneebarring and has an unbelievably strong core and legs (he can jump really really high!)  The progress handhold /foothold incident was clearly just a sign of things to come!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: spidermonkey09 on June 06, 2021, 09:09:01 pm

Obviously, in the next guide the grade should be in at the consensus grade for the easiest sequence (8c if verified). But does it mean Steve never climbed 9b?

Yes, obviously. A route has a grade, an ascent does not have a grade. Also, Steve should in this hypothetical situation be a bit ashamed of himself for not finding better sequences after having spend ages on the route.

This is probably tongue in cheek and I'm just missing the nuance but seems a bit uncalled for.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Wellsy on June 06, 2021, 09:16:01 pm
Maybe Eder’s the climber having the most fun.

What a bastard
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: moose on June 06, 2021, 09:24:50 pm
Eder is giving the scene in Yorkshire and changing the way people look at the routes ... he can jump really really high!

I guess Lattice now needs to add box jumps and the vertical leap to its assessments!  Although, it seems utterly contrived they're used by the NFL to assess college draftees - supposedly a measure of athletic potential for positions that require "explosiveness" and "first step quickness"   E.g. Myles Garrett, a 20 stone defensive end (i.e. one of the  big fellas who tries to mash Quarterbacks) doing a 58" jump:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1688264818049029 (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1688264818049029)
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 06, 2021, 09:27:59 pm
Eder is a knee genius. From his description of them one would be forgiven for thinking they're all piss easy jug kneebars but they definitely aren't!  :lol: He's also using a different, more leftwards sequence on Rainman I believe which Steve (and Josh) identified but decided not to use because it became much more plausible to traverse to the Rainshadow ledge for a rest if you went this way. Apologies if any of the above is wrong. (check with Steve shark!)

It's great the shakeup Eder is giving the scene in Yorkshire and changing the way people look at the routes (He is unfeasibly good at kneebarring and has an unbelievably strong core and legs (he can jump really really high!)  The progress handhold /foothold incident was clearly just a sign of things to come!

He must be next level as even turning the heads of hardcore kneebarrers like Jordan  :lol: Planted by the Spanish government to get us back for Brexit?
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: shark on June 06, 2021, 09:37:04 pm
Planted by the Spanish government to get us back for Brexit?

Don’t call him Spanish!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: jwi on June 06, 2021, 10:20:09 pm
send in the Basques!
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on June 07, 2021, 04:18:21 am


On the #biggradesforbadbeta maybe on boulders eliminates are more part of the game but fuck eliminates on routes and fuck technique elimination full stop.

A mate did Brother from another mother (or similar, don't remember exactly) in Indian Creek as a layback. He took 8c instead of 7a+

Late to the party on this one.

Jwi, you actually make a serious point there, in my opinion.

I think it probably is valid to "take" a particular grade. I often think of the grade as being like a currency, traded in the climbing "market".

If we didn't think of grades as being so fixed to a particular piece of rock, we may not have this difficulty.

How often is grade the motivating factor? - at least, the notion that X is harder than Y.

.. Louis Armstrong/Louis Legstrong? Quite like the names Louis Frigged and Louis Free Now  ;D

Quality vid Doylo. Really enjoyed it  ;D
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Doylo on June 07, 2021, 06:28:57 am
Planted by the Spanish government to get us back for Brexit?

Don’t call him Spanish!

Scrap that theory then. I doubt the Basque county council care about Brexit.
Title: Re: Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno
Post by: Footwork on June 09, 2021, 11:41:27 am
Not really, climbers says stuff like "Route A is 8a to the 5th bolt, then a 7A boulder into sustained 7b climbing" all the time, but no one ever claims that they have a done an 8a route by climbing Route A up to the 5th bolt.

Just whack an anchor by that 5th bolt and job's a good 'un.

Yes.

This is rarely done except at the very highest levels though.... (Alex Huber and Arnaud Petit, we are looking at you)

Let's not forget Tormented Ejaculation.
Title: Northumberland trad
Post by: Petty on January 09, 2022, 08:52:01 am
Has many people on here done the rake e1 at great wanny
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