UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Paul B on October 06, 2016, 10:50:57 am
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I've ended up getting on a route relatively late in the Kilnsey season (with an impending holiday on the 20/10). It's not the end of the world if it has to wait another year, although obviously, I'd prefer it not to.
Seepage has been a bit of an issue (I'm looking at you August!) for the crag and conditions generally haven't seemed overly great this year. Yesterday, the temps were around 15'c and there was a strong easterly (15mpg) which simply sapped the heat out of me. Frustratingly, my fingers numbed out at a critical point, just shy of easier ground.
What are people's tactics for avoiding this? I was properly wrapped/gloved up and even shamelessly had my hands under the dog's coat to try and warm them up prior to a RP.
There aren't really any rests on the route to start putting hands on the back of the neck (I barely chalk).
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Even by your standards Paul, this is a classic advice-seeking post!
I can lend you a down suit if you want?
Hand warmer in your chalk bag?
Haul up and tie off some form of portable heater....?
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Use someone elses body heat? ;)
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Even by your standards Paul, this is a classic advice-seeking post!
errr, yes? Haven't you got kids to walk?
I'm interested if people think it's linked to aerobic stuff but I didn't want to lead an answer.
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No experience in this exact scenario but in Scottish winter climbing, keeping my core warm and keeping my wrist insulated seems to make a massive difference to my hands. Are you wearing enough clothing and can does your top cover your wrists?
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(bouldering not chuffing but..)
When cold I find that the first 15-20 min of a session is nearly impossible. numb hands, no feeling, slow movement etc.. then they warm up, maybe some hot aches and then I'm fine for the next hour or two...
I use a big pair of fleece lined windproof mits (better than gloves as you can keep the fingers together for warmth/make a fist shape inside them etc..)
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DISCLAIMER: This may be considered cheating, and it's not a good idea to put loads of chemicals into your body.
I have quite severe Raynaud's Syndrome, which means that I lose blood flow to my hands really quickly upon the onset of the slightest drop in temperature. Over the winter, I take a vaso-dilation drug called Nifedipine which helps me maintain blood flow. You need to take it for a week or so to get an effect, and I have a vague suspicion that it causes my blood pressure to drop.
Aside from that, I find being thoroughly warm before climbing helps. If I'm not 100% warm before I start, things go downhill quickly.
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Keep them up your dogs arse then crush it.
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I tape hand warmer packs to my wrists, on the palmar side.
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Keep them up your dogs arse then crush it.
Crush what, the dog's arse?
As Galpinos said, keep as much of arm and rest of body as warm as possible. You can try some running compression sleeves which may or may not help. Some reuseable handwarmers might work. Consider a thin hat to limit heat loss through head, you can just chuck it off if it gets too warm.
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Was going to say wrist stuff, wrist warmers, sweatbands etc. Blood flow is near the surface there so has a big effect.
Climb faster?
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I was properly wrapped/gloved up and even shamelessly had my hands under the dog's coat to try and warm them up prior to a RP.
I'm not exactly sure this is a good tactic. In my experience, it just makes things worse, because you overheat your hands causing a huge vasodilatation that's due to that overheating, and not to improved circulation. Then when you take the gloves off and start squeezing holds, you go through a sudden vasoconstriction and your system isn't ready to adapt to the new circumstances because it comes from a warm environment.
I've seen best results with doing a short sequence, so that you almost get numb fingers, then letting them warm up again without putting on gloves, then going. This way they get warm in the same environment in which they are going to perform.
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Other possibility is a pair of Dachstein mitts. Claim that the rough wool stimulates the skin and encourages circulation.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161006/a69b4b8d108b33fa35c58cfafd010840.jpg)
I get cold/numb hands a lot. Which is why I love this style sleeve. Actually just got in the van from a session on Saddle tor (followed by a 10k yomp), in a howling gale. It's been Beanie, Duvet and desperately cuddling hot mugs of coffee weather today. The dog has been rolling in horse/cow shit, I draw the line at warming my hands there today.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Was going to say wrist stuff, wrist warmers, sweatbands etc. Blood flow is near the surface there so has a big effect.
Climb faster?
Before Dave gets in there - try climbing on a steep overhanging board and avoid traverses ;) xx
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Some sort of mini re-warm up to get the blood flowing first. Maybe the first couple of clips of your proj. Get your hands numb, runa round a lot to get your core warm, then go when your hands are glowing red hot.
Those thumb loop sleeves are good too. And hand warmer in the chalk bag
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I've seen best results with doing a short sequence, so that you almost get numb fingers, then letting them warm up again without putting on gloves, then going.
+1 for some kind of 'pre-numbing' approach like this. Also worth noting that being warm in a full down suit with your hands touching your dog inappropriately isn't really being warm - in my experience you're only warm once you're warm enough from running/dancing/etc that you've actually ended up taking your down jacket off, and you put it back on only for the brief period it takes to put shoes on and tie in...
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+1000 for some hand warmer based approach.
Oh yes. I have bad circulation to my fingers and have done quite a lot of rock climbing in the winter in the subarctic, as well as in the sometimes brutally cold Lleida fog. Hand warmers taped to the wrists is one of the two things that works for me. The other being keeping hot rocks in the chalk bag (if there are enough shakeouts on the route),
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Maybe theres a market for a down cover for a portable beastmaker.... so you can warm you fingers up at the crag - in the warm.
I hereby christen the "Beastmuffer"
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Unfortunately, for me the problem with cold weather cragging is that as soon as I start climbing, it's a count-down to finger numbness - the cold rock just sucks the heat out of my hands, leaving them insensate lumps.
The best solution for that I have found is to have one of those charcoal shake-bag hand-warmers in my chalk-bag . That way my fingers are warmed-up a little with every chalk-up - especially good for routes with extended shake-outs as you can milk the rest without fear of getting cold. I haven't had any problems with grip due to the warm chalk making my hands sweaty - more the opposite as the warmth stops my skin getting glassy (that said, I do have very dry skin).
Co-incidentally I have just taken delivery of a box of 40 pairs of handwarmers (amazon marketplace) - which probably means we are destined to have an incredibly warm winter! If you see me around, give me a shout and I'll give you a couple of packets to try.
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for alpine rock routes and grit bouldering, I managed best by letting my hands get really cold, go through hot aches and keep my core and arms warm - numb out the fingers whilst not getting pumped or tired and then get the heart rate up jumping about and doing pressups
no experience on UK limestone in the cold(ish)
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alternatively, get hold of one of Sony's budget Xperia phones and tell it it to do two things at once - might be too hot for safe use at the crag
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Paul............ man up
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because simply thinking JFDI always works... :tumble:
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I've seen best results with doing a short sequence, so that you almost get numb fingers, then letting them warm up again without putting on gloves, then going.
+1 for some kind of 'pre-numbing' approach like this. Also worth noting that being warm in a full down suit with your hands touching your dog inappropriately isn't really being warm - in my experience you're only warm once you're warm enough from running/dancing/etc that you've actually ended up taking your down jacket off, and you put it back on only for the brief period it takes to put shoes on and tie in...
Not a universal cure though - I find that if I get cold fingers, they do not recover - unless I spend around 20 minutes with them stuffed in the vents of my car's heating system on full blast. That said, I very likely have Raynaud's Syndrome (never been to a Doctor about it but every symptom) so I have very substandard recovery abilities.
Total ball-ache - "perfect grit conditions" generally involves my hands turning into ice-blocks half-way through my "warm-up" circuit, an hour of futile attempts at recovery, and then an anguished dash to the Depot to get something out of the day. Pretty much all my hardest grit bouldering (not hard in the great scheme of things admittedly) has been done in July / August on warm days.
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The other being keeping hot rocks in the chalk bag (if there are enough shakeouts on the route),
A lot of Spanish climbers seemed to do this last winter, up north anyway.
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I think hand warmers etc can have their place - particularly on longer routes (from Spanish sport to multi pitch) and I have also used them when skiing in Utah at around -20 (in both gloves and ski boots). I imagine on a Kilnsey RP you are unlikely to be chalking up/shaking out that much...
For Grit bouldering I have found the most effective to be to go through a slight 'numbing out' during the warm up but getting moving enough/hands in jacket pocket between warm ups that they recover.
Not done a huge amount of cold sport RPs but done a bit of 'hard grit' HPs in winter. 2 examples: did a route on Burb South, very cold, climbing around f8a+/b so (without knowing Pauls route) probably a bit easier than what Paul is trying but comparable. Pretty quick climbing but with a slight shake out/gear placement spot. Carried a hand warmer in chalk bag. Did a nervous run around in the sun but due to potential knarly fall it was more of a fast walk/gently jog whilst I sorted my head out. Got really numb hands (and feet) on the route.
Another route at Wimberry, again around f8a+/b. Probably an even colder day. Route climbed very much like a sport climb, couple of little chalk ups but not really shake outs. Not so serious so had a proper run around (15-20 mins) and came back to the route really warm, jacket off etc. Put jacket + hat on to tie in and do boots. No cold hands on route, not even a little.
I find if you can get your core properly warm (not just a gentle jog around whilst chatting to people) beforehand, and hands also warm before you start then you have a good chance of hands staying warm for a 2-5 min rp. For longer routes even being really warm before hand won't keep hands warm for 20+mins so hand warmers etc good.
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I used to let my hands go numb on the way to the crag and once through the hot aches they're proper toasty all day. Tend to wear nice warm gloves in between goes and not climb finger cracks in minus temps these days though.
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Some advice from Dave MacLeod; written after a successful RP at -2C, brrrrr!
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.nl/2010/11/tactics-climbing-in-cold.html
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for alpine rock routes and grit bouldering, I managed best by letting my hands get really cold, go through hot aches and keep my core and arms warm - numb out the fingers whilst not getting pumped or tired and then get the heart rate up jumping about and doing pressups
no experience on UK limestone in the cold(ish)
All at a hanging belay. Impressive.
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Buy one of those weight vests that are popular with people doing the blues at the Depot and fill all the pockets with heat pads (remove the weight pouches first).
Core temperature is important so don't be afraid to use a heat pad (or two) as a suppository.
Use a blowtorch to warm all the handholds and light a small fire at the bottom of the route.
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I know it sounds weird, but a mate of mine swears by standing with your arms hanging down by your sides and lifting and dropping your heels on the ground quite hard. Apparently it forces blood to flow down to your hands and warms them up. Or gives you bruised heels.
Getting numb fingers and hot aches is apparently the start of stage 1 frostbite, and the more you get it the more susceptible you become to it.
I like the American name for it - screaming barfies.
http://www.climbing.com/skills/ask-the-climbing-docs-the-screaming-barfies/
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If it all fails Paul, you could still use the numb hand to have a w**k pretending it's someone else's hand.
It's a win/win situation.
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You want one of those heated velodrome suits an a bike on rollers for between redpoints.
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You want one of those heated velodrome suits an a bike on rollers for between redpoints.
Or rock an oversize parka like Ellie Robinson
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/1759955/paralympic-swimmer-ellie-robinson-makes-confident-gangster-entrance-in-rio-just-before-winning-gold-and-shes-only-15/
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You want to get yourself one of those easyjet tickets to spain.
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Another route at Wimberry, again around f8a+/b. Probably an even colder day. Route climbed very much like a sport climb, couple of little chalk ups but not really shake outs. Not so serious so had a proper run around (15-20 mins) and came back to the route really warm, jacket off etc. Put jacket + hat on to tie in and do boots. No cold hands on route, not even a little.
My anecdotal evidence doesn't really have comparable grades but the result was the same. Fern Hill E2 at Cratcliff on a cold day, realised I'd forgotten my harness so ran back to the car to get it. Was too hot on the lead; the problem had gone too far the other way and i couldn't cool down. Some time later that day did the other E2, five finger, and had sat around in the cold for a while and felt really cold on the route.
So basically, you might think star jumps for a minute and jogging on the spot are getting you warm but it's not, a good 15-20 min walk/jog are the order of the day.
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A humid cold day is a killer for cold hands compared to a really dry cold day.
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You want to get yourself one of those easyjet tickets to spain.
Kentucky followed by Antalya, that should do?
Cheers all.
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Kentucky followed by Antalya Spain, that should do?
I managed to make the most of the slightly warmer weekend temps (mainly lack of wind) and finish things off. I'm not sure there was much specific beyond that (although I made sure to milk the 'rest' and keep my hands on the back of my neck rather than in my chalk bag). What I did note that I'm not very fit; if I run around keeping warm for any length of time I'm knackered when I come to pull on!
Also, maybe of little interest to most, but I found a pocket low down on the route was seemingly making the issue worse. I was stacked (Front 3 with the middle on top) and taking a fair amount of weight during one move and my lefthand felt notably number afterwards.
I will be looking at USB and lighter-fluid based options for the upcoming winter season (and some mitts).
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I will be looking at USB and lighter-fluid based options for the upcoming winter season (and some mitts).
Or the new Samsung phone ;)
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My Moto G(2?) is fairly good in itself!
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I thought some people might this interesting... (I'd not seen a paper on this before!)
Abstract
We examined the influence of 1) prior increase [preheating (PHT)], 2) increase throughout [heating (HT)], and 3) no increase [control (Con)] of body heat content (Hb) on neuromuscular function and manual dexterity of the hands during a 130-min exposure to −20°C (coldEx). Ten volunteers randomly underwent three passive coldEx, incorporating a 10-min moderate-exercise period at the 65th min while wearing a liquid conditioning garment (LCG) and military arctic clothing. In PHT, 50°C water was circulated in the LCG before coldEx until core temperature was increased by 0.5°C. In HT, participants regulated the inlet LCG water temperature throughout coldEx to subjective comfort, while the LCG was not operating in Con. Thermal comfort, rectal temperature, mean skin temperature, mean finger temperature (T̄fing), change in Hb (ΔHb), rate of body heat storage, Purdue pegboard test, finger tapping, handgrip, maximum voluntary contraction, and evoked twitch force of the first dorsal interosseus muscle were recorded. Results demonstrated that, unlike in HT and PHT, thermal comfort, rectal temperature, mean skin temperature, twitch force, maximum voluntary contraction, and finger tapping declined significantly in Con. In contrast, T̄fing and Purdue pegboard test remained constant only in HT. Generalized estimating equations demonstrated that ΔHb and T̄fing were associated over time with hand function, whereas no significant association was detected for rate of body heat storage. It is concluded that increasing Hb not only throughout but also before a coldEx is effective in maintaining hand function. In addition, we found that the best indicator of hand function is ΔHb followed by T̄fing.
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Influence of body heat content on hand function during prolonged cold exposures
A. D. Flouris, S. S. Cheung, J. R. Fowles, L. D. Kruisselbrink, D. A. Westwood, A. E. Carrillo, R. J. L. Murphy
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I was given a few hand warmers for Christmas (the type with the metal disc inside some form of gel). They're largely useless for climbing as the heat output is short lived (i.e. you'd need loads of them to be any use).
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These are the ones you need:
https://grabberwarmers.com/warmer-products/
(http://grabberwarmers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/HWES_version-e1445879236506.jpg)
Tape one to each wrist (put them in the direction of the arm, covering the main artery), or when it's really cold and windy two to each wrist (side by side on the palmar side, covering the main artery).
For some reason people generally refuse to do this even when told, but everyone that I've managed to convince to try became a convert.
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Or:
(http://cozywinters.com/shopping/graphics/00000001/heated-wrist-wrap_B.jpg) Heater Wrist Warmers