UKBouldering.com

the shizzle => news => Topic started by: danm on April 16, 2019, 09:56:59 am

Title: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on April 16, 2019, 09:56:59 am
(https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPqQV-twBuG5yZHqQRZtQAsAEPuv1D1uvbslNGy)

The BMC launched a near-miss and incident reporting scheme on Monday, with the  partnership and support of Mountaineering Scotland, Mountaineering Ireland and others. The plan is for a 1 year trial and then to review at the end of that. You can view and submit reports here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/incident-reporting (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/incident-reporting)

It's been a real honour to work on this, which started as a conversation with some ordinary climbers from the SW, who had an idea and needed our help to make it a reality. So, if you have any experiences you'd like to share with others, please fill out and submit a form. I hope you find the reports useful, our hope is to get enough to be able to produce a summary report at the end of the trial period and take things from there.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: petejh on April 16, 2019, 11:49:50 am
Saw this in my email the other day and decided to file a report. Could have filed many more than one report, as most climbers probably could! The system seems well set up. Good to see this, it's a service long overdue for UK climbers/hill-goers. Well done Dan and all involved.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on April 16, 2019, 12:27:23 pm
What's the scope, Dan? Anything? Just wondering, if I were to headpoint a route and fell off and was injured on the solo attempt, does that count? Or are we more looking at gear failure/lack of best practice? To some, any leader fall could be a near miss.

Good idea though. If nothing else the opporunity for dark humour and understatement in the reporting is a great gift to British climbing.

Quote from: Britomartis, Gogarth
All 3 nuts were behind a large flake that appeared solid at the time of belay construction. Climbing as a 3. When 2 seconds arrived the flake flexed with them hanging on it and all 3 nuts popped out. Belay was well equalised and held on the peg (heart in mouth). We all calmly unweighted the belay...

 :o  Somehow I doubt it was that calm!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on April 16, 2019, 12:40:58 pm
OK, this is fucking great. Some of them are mental.

https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses/5a8a3418-fab0-4c41-9a94-ab4528fb5e71

Quote
I fell head first down a 15ft ravine into broken dead wood. My head hit a trunk with caused concussion and vomiting. A stick went into the upper part of my arm which got infected and turned green. I also suffered injuries to my pelvis but am not sure what it is as I cannot be bothered going to hospital


Dan, have you had any yet which are obviously fake or trolling?
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2019, 01:03:24 pm
They might be interesting reading Will - but none of them are great!

Scary stuff. Glad my Mum Doesn’t have the URL.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on April 16, 2019, 01:12:31 pm
What are the BMC hoping to get out of it Dan? Looking at the variety of reports (from ripping all the gear and decking to bruising heels after pushing out too hard taking a practice fall at the wall) after less than two days it already looks like the only conclusion you could draw is “climbing’s dangerous, have your wits about you and even then you could still be unlucky” which we surely all know already?
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on April 16, 2019, 01:31:52 pm
I'm assuming / hoping it will be used over time to see if there are any common themes / trends which can then be used to produce targeted safety notices / undertaking of investigation / improvement of understanding, as is done in many industries.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on April 16, 2019, 01:46:04 pm
Mike,

The original concept came from Pete and Louis down in the SW, and the primary aim was to give a forum for reflective practice to be shared. The moderation process is simple - follow the guidelines in order to be published, or not, but we won't edit anything.

This means we won't have any real control over what comes in, and obviously some will have greater value in being shared than others. Anything without discernible value won't be published though.

The plan is to see what we've got at the end of the trial period, and then ideally produce a report where we pick up on trends, common causes, and incident archetypes. At this stage though it's really a suck it and see approach.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on April 16, 2019, 01:54:33 pm
Cheers Dan. It’ll be interesting to read the report at the end. I guess it’ll be like the “Accidents in North American Mountaineering” report they have annually in the states. I don’t envy you having to go through them all though!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: T_B on April 16, 2019, 02:21:49 pm
Unfortunately I think this sort of thing needs to be heavily moderated, otherwise you risk losing the useful stuff in amongst the beginner-stating-the-bleeding-obvious, which is what most of the reports published so far seem to be. Or, perhaps all you need is a voting system like the 'was this review useful' tool on Amazon? That way the guff drifts to the bottom.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on April 16, 2019, 02:27:12 pm
Nature of the beast I think. You should see some of the guff that gets recorded on our safety system at work.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SamT on April 16, 2019, 02:46:34 pm
Be interesting to pull some stats in a few years. 

No. of abseiling related incidents.
No. of leader related incidents,
No. Loose rock related incidents. 
No. of fingertape related incidents.
etc etc.

I can see some quite groovy venn diagrams being drawn already.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Muenchener on April 16, 2019, 02:47:57 pm
How is Accidents in North American Mountaineering edited / curated? Seems like talking to somebody with experience there would be an obvious thing to do.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on April 16, 2019, 03:45:15 pm
How is Accidents in North American Mountaineering edited / curated? Seems like talking to somebody with experience there would be an obvious thing to do.

Yep, we did that already. We spoke to a number of providers of a similar service. Dougald who runs the US/Canada scheme was particularly useful to talk to, as they've evolved their approach over the years to remove the stats analysis and focus on anecdotal reports as this was found to be a stronger driver of behavioral change. They get about 130 reports or so a year.

The Austrians run theirs through part of the Police, it's a large government funded scheme and they now have around 100,000 reports as theirs covers all mountain incidents. Given the country is one big mountain, their approach was never going to be appropriate to follow, so we're closest to the US/Canada model.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: tomtom on April 16, 2019, 04:07:47 pm
I think its a great idea.

I read the one about the flake widening at a belay spitting out the gear leaving people held by one doddy peg - and straight away you realise - don't put all your pro on one flake!

Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Muenchener on April 16, 2019, 04:25:08 pm
How is Accidents in North American Mountaineering edited / curated? Seems like talking to somebody with experience there would be an obvious thing to do.

Yep, we did that already. We spoke to a number of providers of a similar service. Dougald who runs the US/Canada scheme was particularly useful to talk to, as they've evolved their approach over the years to remove the stats analysis and focus on anecdotal reports as this was found to be a stronger driver of behavioral change. They get about 130 reports or so a year.

The Austrians run theirs through part of the Police, it's a large government funded scheme and they now have around 100,000 reports as theirs covers all mountain incidents. Given the country is one big mountain, their approach was never going to be appropriate to follow, so we're closest to the US/Canada model.

Assumed you probably would have done - I certainly didn't want to come across as suggesting you hadn't done your due diligence

Do you have a link to the Austrian stuff? I can read German fluently so would be interested.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on April 16, 2019, 05:09:16 pm
- and straight away you realise - don't put all your pro on one flake! stick to bouldering
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: HaeMeS on April 16, 2019, 05:25:36 pm
Do you have a link to the Austrian stuff? I can read German fluently so would be interested.

Thanks Dan for the site/database! I hope it’ll lead to interesting insights and less accidents. 

I’ve set up a similar database/site in the Netherlands in 2011. Reports have to be moderated since most reports have confusing content or misspelled language. Moderation is also necessary to protect the innocent (i.e. delete names/venues).
There’s never been a fake report, although I suspected it once. Turned out the report was true, it being a very, very lucky near miss.  :o

We’re using the reports to spot common themes or trends which can be used to produce specific safety notices. Trends we found have led to an updated curriculum for the climbing courses as well as an updated training for climbing wall instructors. Recently we’ve spotted a trend towards more accidents with belayers dropping their leader after an unexpected fall (@ indoor climbing walls). Turns out this is a combination of more walls offering lead climbing, more people using Smart/Jul2/etc belay devices, but without proper training or knowledge about common mistakes. We’ve already knew this was a common cause for accidents, but the amount of reports led to an intensified campaign to raise awareness amongst instructors, climbing walls and climbers.

The near misses are just as interesting as the misses.  They lead to an improved understanding of the why and how stuff might go wrong. Since most errors are human errors, an insight into the thinking and handling almost leading to an incident is just as interesting as a genuine incident. Sometimes even more interesting as a serious incident tends to focus on the outcome instead of the causes leading to the accident.

Unfortunately only a fraction of incidents is reported. Not because the incident database/site isn’t known, but because climbers tend to be secretive about their errors. A very unfortunate behaviour IMO, and something I/we’ve failed to change over the years. A lot can be learned from avian sports (my colleagues next door) or diving. Accident reporting in those sports tends to be the norm after an incident. Maybe things will change in the future…

@Münchener:
https://www.alpenverein.de/Bergsport/Sicherheit/Unfallstatistik/ (https://www.alpenverein.de/Bergsport/Sicherheit/Unfallstatistik/)
No individual data are accessible.

The Dutch site: https://www.klimongevallen.nl/ongevallen/ (https://www.klimongevallen.nl/ongevallen/)
The Belgian equivalent: https://www.klimenbergsportongevallen.eu/ (https://www.klimenbergsportongevallen.eu/) They started recently and have no visible data yet since they will publish the reports twice a year.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on April 16, 2019, 06:10:28 pm
Please stop wadding me for doing my job! The real heroes are the volunteers Pete and Louie who put the original concept together and laid all the groundwork, and have been suckered into being part of the moderation team!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 16, 2019, 06:10:40 pm
Nature of the beast I think. You should see some of the guff that gets recorded on our safety system at work.

Quite.

As a Marine accident investigator/surveyor these data bases were invaluable (and made for frickin excellent conference/AGM speeches at IIMS). The anecdotal, generally more valuable than dry stats, as that never conveys what actually happened, or more often, what might have happened and why it didn’t.
I bet, human error, for most prevalent initiating factor of recorded incidents, at the end of trial; at 80% incidence.

Can we set up a sweepstake?
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Paul B on April 16, 2019, 07:22:54 pm
Unfortunately I think this sort of thing needs to be heavily moderated, otherwise you risk losing the useful stuff in amongst the beginner-stating-the-bleeding-obvious

I'd disagree with this. If it's a common theme of beginners doing X wrong then you can try and do something about X. I work in the Civil Engineering, specifically a design and build for the past ~5 years. You'd think you wouldn't have to tell someone not to try and warm their hands up using the exhaust gasses from a large (>40 tonne) excavator within the slew radius. If so, you'd be wrong! ...and so many more.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on April 16, 2019, 08:13:04 pm
Unfortunately I think this sort of thing needs to be heavily moderated, otherwise you risk losing the useful stuff in amongst the beginner-stating-the-bleeding-obvious

I'd disagree with this. If it's a common theme of beginners doing X wrong then you can try and do something about X. I work in the Civil Engineering, specifically a design and build for the past ~5 years. You'd think you wouldn't have to tell someone not to try and warm their hands up using the exhaust gasses from a large (>40 tonne) excavator within the slew radius. If so, you'd be wrong! ...and so many more.

I’ve got a blacker cat, than your black cat...

Try telling the young Stoker, who came back to his destroyer a little tipsy, not to piss on the 1200A shore supply cable, that the dockyard crane had clipped earlier in the day (unbeknownst to anyone, at the time) and damaged the insulation...

You’ll need a Ouija board, but someone should tell him.

After the lecture and photos, we all learned to keep the zip up in the dockyard.

Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: kingholmesy on April 16, 2019, 08:28:58 pm
Fuck, what a way to go.  :o
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: UnkArl on April 19, 2019, 11:58:24 pm
Just read a report on there for an incident that apparently happened on 30/08/2019.....

https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses/f90bc8b6-b2df-4ead-a736-291e65a48fce?utm_campaign=news_id_0&utm_content=link2&utm_medium=news_post&utm_source=ukclimbing
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: shark on April 20, 2019, 12:26:11 am
Plenty of time to take precautionary action then. Well done BMC
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: petejh on April 20, 2019, 08:06:48 am
Reported by a Mr N. Ostradamus
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: shark on April 20, 2019, 08:59:39 am
they've evolved their approach over the years to remove the stats analysis and focus on anecdotal reports as this was found to be a stronger driver of behavioral change.

This is I think the value of accident reporting.

Stories are a powerful educator as it makes you think through situations and use your imagination.

I’m inherently suspicious of a stats based approach to risk education as most people deal with stats poorly (including Doctors! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019)) and for other reasons I attempted to articulate here:
www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/editorial_chance_risk_and_accidents-1099

Looking back at that article I was overreacting and responding to some appalling threads on UKC at the time and have now softened my stance on accident narratives (a respectful time after the event) as it gets people thinking about risk in a useful way.

I also wrote a following up piece on my thoughts on climbing risk here:
www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/a_few_thoughts_about_risk-1237


Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Steve R on April 20, 2019, 09:44:38 am
Agree with the stories vs stats thing. 
On stats though, there's that saying along the lines of '80% of motorists think they're better than average at driving'.  I'll bet there's an analogous illusory superiority thing with trad climbers like '80% of trad climbers think they're better than average at placing gear'.  Plus a bit of Dunning-Kruger action piled on top no doubt.   
One slight thing with the database - possibly/probably already considered but might it be an idea to be able to filter entries by discipline?
Disappointingly, not seen any entries containing the term 'cragfast' yet.
Good effort Dan and all involved
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on April 20, 2019, 10:09:46 am
I'm still trying to think what the most outrageous incident is that would still be deemed credible by the mods. Falling off ringpiece first onto an awkwardly placed clipstick seems too far fetched, but finding a seemingly fixed-in-situ dildo on a route and pulling it off while trying to use it resulting in a nasty fall seems strangely more plausible.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: remus on April 20, 2019, 10:32:33 am
Regarding the stats vs anecdotes, I think it's important to distinguish between analysis and reporting. While it's definitely hard to interpret and report statistics properly I don't think that means it should be thrown out entirely, as it lets you make conclusions that you otherwise couldn't (and perhaps more importantly discount spurious conclusions).

It seems like the obvious approach would be to let someone who's statistically competent analyse the data and then use anecdotes to illustrate the findings.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: tomtom on April 20, 2019, 02:42:13 pm
I'm still trying to think what the most outrageous incident is that would still be deemed credible by the mods. Falling off ringpiece first onto an awkwardly placed clipstick seems too far fetched, but finding a seemingly fixed-in-situ dildo on a route and pulling it off while trying to use it resulting in a nasty fall seems strangely more plausible.

By any stretch that would be the bottom of any list..
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on April 21, 2019, 01:51:46 am
I'm still trying to think what the most outrageous incident is that would still be deemed credible by the mods. Falling off ringpiece first onto an awkwardly placed clipstick seems too far fetched, but finding a seemingly fixed-in-situ dildo on a route and pulling it off while trying to use it resulting in a nasty fall seems strangely more plausible.

By any stretch that would be the bottom of any list..

I fell off repeating Inferno at Baggy Point many years ago. 3rd ascent, when it still had a sticky out Lost Arrow to protect the crux.

I slid down the slab, astride the peg, hitting it sack first, ripping it out. Extremely painful.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on April 21, 2019, 08:11:34 am
Historic incidents can be logged, Dave. Your report could be what saves someone else's life (or their ability to create more of it).
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on April 21, 2019, 02:10:56 pm
Historic incidents can be logged, Dave. Your report could be what saves someone else's life (or their ability to create more of it).

"hitting it sack first, ripping it out“

I meant the peg, but I got the point.  ;D

I presume near miss can include things like rotten gear?  :P That's supposed to be a serious comment. I'm being lazy. I'll have a read.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Paul B on April 23, 2019, 11:37:59 am
The business I used to work for used near miss reporting both for Health, Safety and Environmental near misses, but also for commercial issues, later expanding this to add 'positive interventions' (these were often quite dubious IMO as we were 'encouraged' to raise them); Without being a terrible bore I wonder if the same kind of near miss reporting would work with access issues?

I was pretty surprised yesterday to find >10 vehicles, and two dogs (one in a vehicle, the other kind of in/tied to a vehicle) at a crag with fairly specific signage. When challenged the response was "we didn't know before we drove here, and we'd drive all the way from home".

The sign reads "No dogs whatsoever" and concludes with "The above is absolutely vital for continued climbing use of the quarry. Please do not be selfish".

The concept of going somewhere else, or one of the party who wasn't climbing sitting in the pub ~1 mile away (on one of the nicest days we'll have this year) simply hadn't been considered. Not everyone's willing to have the confrontation required to raise these issues and it might give warning to arising problems. It may just be noise...

 :tumble:.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on April 23, 2019, 12:14:49 pm
I think that's a good idea, Paul. I wonder if it might cause problems if it's visible to the public - giving landowners the evidence to say that their access arrangement has been breached no less than x times over a y month period. It would certainly be a better way of compiling incidents than having people leave comments on UKC logbooks/forums saying that they were chased away by landowners.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Paul B on April 23, 2019, 12:19:16 pm
I think that's a good idea, Paul. I wonder if it might cause problems if it's visible to the public

I did think that. I'm currently on an old phone; can you report issues at specific crags via the RAD app?
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on April 23, 2019, 12:20:35 pm
I think you can leave comments on a particular crag.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: duncan on April 23, 2019, 12:30:35 pm
Regarding the stats vs anecdotes, I think it's important to distinguish between analysis and reporting. While it's definitely hard to interpret and report statistics properly I don't think that means it should be thrown out entirely, as it lets you make conclusions that you otherwise couldn't (and perhaps more importantly discount spurious conclusions).

It seems like the obvious approach would be to let someone who's statistically competent analyse the data and then use anecdotes to illustrate the findings.

I love a bit of data analysis but the sample is likely to be so biased (by self-selection, no fatal accidents reported so far and I'm guessing not many will be) that conclusions derived may be invalid.   

Well done to Pete and Louis, and the BMC for piloting this. The Yosemite equivalent used a record of all YOSAR call-outs so was more appropriate to report descriptive stats. but it was anecdotes highlighting particular issues that most influenced my behavior. 
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on April 23, 2019, 12:33:03 pm
I think you can leave comments on a particular crag.

You have to specify the crag when you report an incident.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Paul B on April 23, 2019, 12:38:38 pm
The Yosemite equivalent used a record of all YOSAR call-outs so was more appropriate to report descriptive stats. but it was anecdotes highlighting particular issues that most influenced my behavior.

Always worth a plug:
http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Offwidth on April 23, 2019, 05:19:40 pm
The Yosemite equivalent used a record of all YOSAR call-outs so was more appropriate to report descriptive stats. but it was anecdotes highlighting particular issues that most influenced my behavior.

Always worth a plug:
http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm

The biggest lesson I got from this excellent YOSAR analysis and from talking to Yosemite climbing rangers, guides and the rescue teams is that good experienced climbers still die or get seriously injured doing exactly the same stupid things. I'm not sure it's what Peter Cook once said "I learn from my mistakes I can repeat them exactly", more that those who need to know won't find out or if they do read it will deny it applies to them. Jim Titt made a similar point on UKC about the huge amount of written alpine analysis (hardly anyone reads it and the messages clearly just don't get out to the right people).  I always thought the BMC winter skills stuff, SAIS info, winter training courses etc. were wonderful for UK scottish winter safety stuff; yet every time I went on the Ben knowing to avoid particular gullys someone would always be in them (especially the No5 start to Ledge Route.... people were avalanched there this year under some of the most serious avalanche forecasts I've seen).

Still, if this resource saves some lives its all worth it.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: remus on April 23, 2019, 07:50:40 pm

I love a bit of data analysis but the sample is likely to be so biased (by self-selection, no fatal accidents reported so far and I'm guessing not many will be) that conclusions derived may be invalid.

You could say the same of any analysis on the data, whether it's reporting a few anecdotes or some in depth stats. As long as the limitations of the data are kept in mind I don't think it precludes a statistical approach.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on May 02, 2019, 01:50:56 pm
Here's one for y'all. A friend had a nasty accident in some god-forsaken limestone quarry recently. She got to the anchors, clipped in with a sling, leaned back and turned around, and then bounced down the route to come to rest a few inches off the floor. The krab that was on the sling is still attached to the lower-off, the sling is unbroken.

This has been picked apart and we think that what has happened is as follows:

Climber has a sling attached to their harness and has a couple of knots tied along the length of the sling. The krab can be clipped below one of these knots to lengthen or shorten the sling for clipping to the belay. However, this sling is one of those thick, tape sling jobbies. The krab is something like this, i.e. the krab tapers and forms a narrow nodule at the bottom.
https://dmmclimbing.com/Products/Locking-Carabiners/I-Beam-Boa


So the suspicion is that the climber thought they had clipped the sling below the knot, but had in fact clipped the krab around the whole sling, not through it. The knot, being on thick tape, was thick enough to then sit on one side of the tapered part of the krab, and when the krab is pulled up/sling is pulled down, the knot doesn't pull through the krab. When the sling was properly weighted, the knot must have deformed easily through the krab and the climber then fell.


So, asides from being careful about how you set up a lanyard, there's also one other very obvious thing that the climber didn't do which was to clip the lower-off as a runner before doing anything else. Had she done this, the sling still would have failed, but she wouldn't have gone nearly so far.

There's a few other crazy things in the way that some people thread lower-offs. When pulling up slack to thread the lower-off, people tie a clove hitch or similar and clip this to them to stop them from dropping the rope once untied. But some people clip it to their gear loop! No! Just move your hand a little bit to the left/right and clip it to your belay loop. You're then still on belay to your last runner (which could well be the lower-off) for the whole time you're re-threading.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: dunnyg on May 02, 2019, 02:12:21 pm
Must have been a short route to hit the ground?
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on May 02, 2019, 02:21:39 pm
I think the distance between last bolt and LO. You clip the last bolt then go up onto a ledge. Then v easy ground to get to the lower-off on the neighbouring route.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: tommytwotone on May 02, 2019, 02:56:42 pm
Re clipping lower-off as a runner. +1 to the max.

One of my nastiest accidents was on Costa Blanca, top of a route, pumped out of my mind and fumbling around trying to unscrew the (bloody tightly screwed up) screwgate on the lower off. I got it undone, pulled up a loop of slack...and fell of literally as I was about to put the rope through the krab.

To make matters worse I'd cockily skipped the penultimate bolt so took quite a ride, smacked my swede when it all came tight and cheese-gratered by back.

Why I didn't just clip a quickdraw into the lower-off, clip that AND THEN faff about threading is beyond me. Painful way to learn a basic lesson.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: dunnyg on May 02, 2019, 03:30:22 pm
Grim, both will and TTT!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: andy popp on May 02, 2019, 03:30:46 pm
I can confirm that dropping the rope while threading the anchor is deeply embarrassing.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on May 02, 2019, 03:40:04 pm
I can confirm that dropping the rope while threading the anchor is deeply embarrassing.

 :lol:

And the best bit is, it's totally up to your mates how long they leave you there before coming to the rescue.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on May 02, 2019, 03:47:47 pm
I can confirm that dropping the rope while threading the anchor is deeply embarrassing.

 :agree: I've done it. Your mates have all the time they like to laugh at you. Will beat me to it.

Never done the going-in-direct-without-clipping-the-rope-to-the-chains-first thing though. Comforting to know there are some basic errors I haven't made. The incident database is quite good for that reassurance I'm finding- one guy on there was hanging on his ab rope over a seacliff when he realised that the belay device was only on a gearloop!  :o

Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 02, 2019, 04:01:30 pm
I can confirm that dropping the rope while threading the anchor is deeply embarrassing.

 :lol:

And the best bit is, it's totally up to your mates how long they leave you there before coming to the rescue.

Verdon.


1990.

Tried to retreat after biting off more than we could chew + incredibly inexperienced at multipitch.

7 hrs and some minutes.

No clip sticks. Belay was a stitch plate. Long before mobile phones.

Second had to Ab down to bottom, hike back to car, drive round and ab back down the route...

Double roped everything multipitch from then on.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: andy popp on May 02, 2019, 04:24:47 pm
I can confirm that dropping the rope while threading the anchor is deeply embarrassing.

 :lol:

And the best bit is, it's totally up to your mates how long they leave you there before coming to the rescue.

Verdon.


1990.

Tried to retreat after biting off more than we could chew + incredibly inexperienced at multipitch.

7 hrs and some minutes.

No clip sticks. Belay was a stitch plate. Long before mobile phones.

Second had to Ab down to bottom, hike back to car, drive round and ab back down the route...

Double roped everything multipitch from then on.

And I thought it was bad doing it on one of those Cheedale buttresses topped by almost inaccessible vertical jungle.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SamT on May 02, 2019, 04:36:24 pm
We've all been there, some folk get away with it, others don't.

Mate lowered me off the end of the rope on the first route we did at Buoux, a route on the Styx wall that was a touch over 25m - obv being our first ever trip abroad we were using twin 50m half ropes. Classic punters  :lol:. Got lucky and didn't hurt myself. Least we weren't on La Plage or sum such!!

Another time, I was shunting a route at Rivelin whilst waiting for a partner to turn up.  I'd set up as a top rope, but just put a fig 8 in and was shunting on one side of it.  Spotted mate walking up through the trees, got to top of route and undid fig 8 so that we could top rope it.  Got chatting to mate then, as Id done the previous couple of times, lent back to just ab back down. Of course, no fig 8 anymore.  Luckily I realised just as I was leaning back and beginning to fall, and just, and I mean just, managed to grab the Krab before I was on my way backward from the top of the crag...  :slap:
That was one of the 9 gone.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Duma on May 02, 2019, 04:44:02 pm
Nothing compared to some of these but I've twice got to the lower offs and realised I was tied in to the leg loops only. Not sure what that'd be like if I'd fallen but it must at a minimum increase the chances of flipping over and smacking your head in a fall.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 02, 2019, 04:45:24 pm
I can confirm that dropping the rope while threading the anchor is deeply embarrassing.

 :lol:

And the best bit is, it's totally up to your mates how long they leave you there before coming to the rescue.

Verdon.


1990.

Tried to retreat after biting off more than we could chew + incredibly inexperienced at multipitch.

7 hrs and some minutes.

No clip sticks. Belay was a stitch plate. Long before mobile phones.

Second had to Ab down to bottom, hike back to car, drive round and ab back down the route...

Double roped everything multipitch from then on.

And I thought it was bad doing it on one of those Cheedale buttresses topped by almost inaccessible vertical jungle.

Still better than Dunc McPhearson and Ian Holmes (anyone remember him from the Foundry, early days?), possibly that same summer or the next; getting benighted on the top pitch of some god forsakenly polished 6c. No torches, tee shirts and shorts. Under a small roof about 15-20 mtrs below the rim. Dunc had wandered off route in the dark. Horrendously run out, freezing and unable to down climb (or move).
Only us realising something was up, back at the tents, when darkness fully set in; saved them. Rustled up a search party and took the minibus up. No one was sure what route they were supposed to be on, just fairly certain which butress.
Eventually heard a plaintive cry, almost lost in that gapping maw. Cue interesting rescue, of a truly international nature and a confusing number of ropes.
1am? Finally up. Looked like very startled mice and not a little sheepish.

Cost them quite a few rounds in the bar, the next night.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on May 02, 2019, 05:17:17 pm

Another time, I was shunting a route at Rivelin whilst waiting for a partner to turn up.  I'd set up as a top rope, but just put a fig 8 in and was shunting on one side of it.  Spotted mate walking up through the trees, got to top of route and undid fig 8 so that we could top rope it.  Got chatting to mate then, as Id done the previous couple of times, lent back to just ab back down. Of course, no fig 8 anymore.  Luckily I realised just as I was leaning back and beginning to fall, and just, and I mean just, managed to grab the Krab before I was on my way backward from the top of the crag...  :slap:
That was one of the 9 gone.

Did almost exactly the same abbing a multipitch in the alps. Mate finished ab just as someone arrived at bolted belay station i was abbing off. Cue excahnag eof pleasantries, he put himself on bleay and I was about to abb to get out of his way. Luckily still had top hand on belay station as I pulled rope tight with bottom hand and realised I'd not attached belay device.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Muenchener on May 02, 2019, 05:27:55 pm
On the stats vs anecdotes topic: I used to work for a company that insured industrial machinery, and occasionally read the underwriting newsletters.

In the unlikely event that anybody ever lets me near a lathe, I will most definitely not be wearing a tie.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 02, 2019, 06:22:31 pm
On the stats vs anecdotes topic: I used to work for a company that insured industrial machinery, and occasionally read the underwriting newsletters.

In the unlikely event that anybody ever lets me near a lathe, I will most definitely not be wearing a tie.

I qualified as a Craftsman (Fitter and Turner) during my apprenticeship in the RN. On one notable occasion a certain impatient apprentice, decided to take a deep cut on the brass bar he was turning. Normally spiteful little shards and coils, his swarf came off in a neat little, continuous, ribbon; that was disappearing into the lathe bed.
Unbeknownst to him (or the rest of us concentrating and ear-doffed) it was looping straight back out of the lathe bed and had looped around him several times in a coil of around a 10 foot diameter.
A chance kink, kicked the ribbon up into the rotating chuck, which wound it up like a bobbin and cinched  him hard into the machine, like some sort of giant spider silk.
The sharp swarf cut through his overalls and would have gone through his flesh like a hot knife through butter, except it dragged him forward and onto the big red Emergency stop button that shut the whole gig down, just in time.
Still, plenty of blood.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: mrjonathanr on May 02, 2019, 06:58:09 pm
Saw a girl belaying her friend as he warmed up on TCF. He must have been about 50’ up when several of us saw simultaneously that she had the belay plate clipped to her gear loop. We all pounced on her and grabbed the rope whilst it was transferred to her belay loop. Could have been nasty.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on May 02, 2019, 07:30:18 pm
While rushing to abseil while making the Seaside I threaded my GriGri backwards and only realised as I leaned back over the edge on two separate occasions.  :oops: Not sure how bad it is if you load a GriGri backwards but I’m guessing it’s not great.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 02, 2019, 09:16:58 pm
While rushing to abseil while making the Seaside I threaded my GriGri backwards and only realised as I leaned back over the edge on two separate occasions.  :oops: Not sure how bad it is if you load a GriGri backwards but I’m guessing it’s not great.

It becomes a Go Go.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: petejh on May 02, 2019, 09:37:56 pm
Was only a matter of time before this thread turned into war stories. Where's Rich Simpson when you need him, he'd have had some story about that time on the Marmolada his mate was killed by an asteroid strike, and which shattered his left shoulder (forcing him to miss the boxing team for the olympics) necessitating his down-dyno solo of the Fish route by headtorch.

Most blatant near miss (if you can call a fractured skull a near miss) among many I've seen or made, was being next to the girl from the BMC (Hannah?) when she decked from the top bolt on the slate when the 'slingdraw with rubber keeper that wasn't connected properly' failed. Exactly the same accident as that which later killed Tito Traversa.

Lowering off, abseiling, approaching/descending. Those three would be my guestimate as the highest risk activities from the stats. Rather than leading routes or difficulty of route.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: teestub on May 02, 2019, 10:02:44 pm
Most blatant near miss (if you can call a fractured skull a near miss)

I’m pretty sure that, however lax your interpretation of H&S guidance, decking and fracturing your skull would not be a near miss!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: user deactivated on May 02, 2019, 10:11:29 pm
Sacrilegious and Blasphemous spouting PetE. have some Negative KarmA
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: highrepute on May 03, 2019, 09:55:17 am
While rushing to abseil while making the Seaside I threaded my GriGri backwards and only realised as I leaned back over the edge on two separate occasions.  :oops: Not sure how bad it is if you load a GriGri backwards but I’m guessing it’s not great.

It becomes a Go Go.

Never done it but I understood that it would function like a standard belay plate like this, so as long as you've got hold of the dead rope you should be ok.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: tommytwotone on May 03, 2019, 10:57:46 am
My other one was nipping off for a slash before leading The Sentinel at Burbage South and having a bit of a mare on it where I came as close to coming off it from the top as you can without actually coming off.

Pulled over the top, and while setting up belay realised I hadn't tightened my harness up, it was sitting snug on my hips but just on the velcro.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on May 03, 2019, 11:36:46 am
Be good if they can tell what lottery numbers were on day of incident
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: nai on May 03, 2019, 11:45:39 am
My other one was nipping off for a slash before leading The Sentinel at Burbage South and having a bit of a mare on it where I came as close to coming off it from the top as you can without actually coming off.

Pulled over the top, and while setting up belay realised I hadn't tightened my harness up, it was sitting snug on my hips but just on the velcro.

You were obviously confused that day, not a clue where you were or what you were doing
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on May 03, 2019, 11:51:12 am
Those velcro things on harnesses are just the worst. Can't believe the concept ever was approved by a company making safety equipment which is basically all a harness is.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Stu Littlefair on May 03, 2019, 12:03:23 pm
You’re not wrong. In my youth when I thought things like bridge swinging were cool I jumped off a bridge with my harness just secured by the velcro.

Glad the river was deep.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on May 03, 2019, 12:05:11 pm
Bridge winging.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Plattsy on May 03, 2019, 01:33:54 pm
Reading some of these I was reminded of this tale by Unlucky Alf from a similar thread.
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,12077.msg245081.html#msg245081 (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,12077.msg245081.html#msg245081)
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Paul B on May 03, 2019, 03:14:47 pm
Those velcro things on harnesses are just the worst. Can't believe the concept ever was approved by a company making safety equipment which is basically all a harness is.

When I worked in a gear shop, there was one harness that always stayed in the 'bargain bucket'. It had a clip-in type buckle reminiscent of a very quick release system. I've no idea why it never sold  :shrug:
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: mrjonathanr on May 03, 2019, 09:33:49 pm
Vividly recall finally getting a runner - a Moac, remember them?- some 20’+ up Rowan Route on the Milestone Buttress around Christmas circa ‘82. The rain was melting the snow on the holds and I was slipping around in my walking boots, so VERY relieved to get a nut in.

Short lived relief though; I had tied on so loosely my rope had fallen off and I had to take the nut out and solo to the top.

My Scout Master wasn’t that impressed. But I’m good at tying on now  ;D
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on May 04, 2019, 01:55:23 pm
You’re not wrong. In my youth when I thought things like bridge swinging were cool I jumped off a bridge with my harness just secured by the velcro.

Glad the river was deep.
:o
That makes my own bridge swing experience pale into insignificance! My mates had rigged it and were about to jump off, I thought the rope looked too long, got called out as being nesh but eventually prevailed with the idea of doing a test with a rucksack with a few rocks in it. Rucksack duly slams into the riverbed at full velocity, re-emerging in tatters, sliced to bits on the rocky bottom. I've never had the balls to do one after seeing that!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on May 04, 2019, 02:14:17 pm
Some absolute corkers here.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: jwi on May 04, 2019, 02:37:42 pm
Nothing compared to some of these but I've twice got to the lower offs and realised I was tied in to the leg loops only. Not sure what that'd be like if I'd fallen but it must at a minimum increase the chances of flipping over and smacking your head in a fall.

I have the pleasure to tell you that it is very uncomfortable to fall tied in to the leg loops only. I am not keen on trying it again.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: andy popp on May 04, 2019, 02:41:39 pm
Nothing compared to some of these but I've twice got to the lower offs and realised I was tied in to the leg loops only. Not sure what that'd be like if I'd fallen but it must at a minimum increase the chances of flipping over and smacking your head in a fall.

I have the pleasure to tell you that it is very uncomfortable to fall tied in to the leg loops only. I am not keen on trying it again.

I've had the pleasure of a long fall onto a rope tied round my waist with a bowline.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: ashtond6 on May 05, 2019, 01:12:40 am
So far the bridge swing and verdon incidents are the winners for me.

In bits here  :bow:
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: mrjonathanr on May 05, 2019, 08:01:01 am
Nothing compared to some of these but I've twice got to the lower offs and realised I was tied in to the leg loops only. Not sure what that'd be like if I'd fallen but it must at a minimum increase the chances of flipping over and smacking your head in a fall.

I have the pleasure to tell you that it is very uncomfortable to fall tied in to the leg loops only. I am not keen on trying it again.

This can’t happen if you thread your harness from the top first.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 05, 2019, 09:20:12 am
Nothing compared to some of these but I've twice got to the lower offs and realised I was tied in to the leg loops only. Not sure what that'd be like if I'd fallen but it must at a minimum increase the chances of flipping over and smacking your head in a fall.

I have the pleasure to tell you that it is very uncomfortable to fall tied in to the leg loops only. I am not keen on trying it again.

This can’t happen if you thread your harness from the top first.

After a few decades of climbing, it was pointed out to me by a mere sprog; that if you feed the rope up through, when leading, and then forget to tie the knot, when you begin to lead the weight/drag/shitty belaying of the rope (should) will pull it down and out of the harness, before you get very far. If you feed it down through, the friction will hold it until you try to weight it.
I like the thinking. Never thought about it before.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on May 05, 2019, 09:54:47 am
Nothing compared to some of these but I've twice got to the lower offs and realised I was tied in to the leg loops only. Not sure what that'd be like if I'd fallen but it must at a minimum increase the chances of flipping over and smacking your head in a fall.

I have the pleasure to tell you that it is very uncomfortable to fall tied in to the leg loops only. I am not keen on trying it again.

This can’t happen if you thread your harness from the top first. always do a buddy check.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: nai on May 05, 2019, 10:08:29 am

After a few decades of climbing, it was pointed out to me by a mere sprog; that if you feed the rope up through, when leading, and then forget to tie the knot, when you begin to lead the weight/drag/shitty belaying of the rope (should) will pull it down and out of the harness, before you get very far. If you feed it down through, the friction will hold it until you try to weight it.
I like the thinking. Never thought about it before.

Surely not if you're sport climbing with a bolt clipped above you?
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: petejh on May 05, 2019, 11:45:29 am
Harness threading.. this thread just triggered my UKC alert.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on May 05, 2019, 12:16:27 pm

After a few decades of climbing, it was pointed out to me by a mere sprog; that if you feed the rope up through, when leading, and then forget to tie the knot, when you begin to lead the weight/drag/shitty belaying of the rope (should) will pull it down and out of the harness, before you get very far. If you feed it down through, the friction will hold it until you try to weight it.
I like the thinking. Never thought about it before.

Surely not if you're sport climbing with a bolt clipped above you?

I can think of plenty of likely scenarios where it wouldn’t help at all,  I’d always done it that way out of sheer habit and for no reason that I can recall, but I reckon anything that “might” lessen the chances of finding out the hard way, is worth a shot...

Can we find some more things of this type?
Because I have to work this weekend and my only potential source of entertainment, would be Pete’s likely rant, if anyone posts any more trivia.

Actually, Pete, why the flying frangipani are you on UKB in glorious sunshine, with cool to cold air temps? If you’re tired of climbing, come and cover my shifts at the Bunker and I’ll be in Portland if you need me...
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: petejh on May 05, 2019, 03:41:33 pm
Hehe I was at LPT yesterday, day before was sport climbing at Gogarth (;)), and for the 2 days before that was bolting a new route. I'm off bouldering in  couple of hours, and then out to hopefully send the new route tomorrow. All with my harness threaded the wrong way.  Sunday's a half day of rest.

I agree with Stu's rope jump as the best near miss so far!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: tomtom on June 15, 2019, 05:35:27 pm
This seems like the best place for this and it’s a copy paste from Jim Perrin from the Pex FB page - but thought it too good not to share - hope no one minds.

“I remember manteling over the top of Lady Jane Direct one February day years ago. The heel of my palm slipped off on the algal sloping top, down I went, and landed on my left heel among the ground you've just cleared. Ouch! I crawled back to the car, drove to Liverpool General, had my heel x-rayed and there was a clean crack right through the big bone. A red-haired Irish nurse wheeled me off to the plaster room, but I pleaded with her just to strap it up because Dave Cook was coming up on the train that night and we were heading down to trespass on Range West in Pembroke next day. Great plan! You should have witnessed the row with that nurse. I asked her for a date and she punched me in the chest and asked "What makes you think I'd go out wit' an eejit like you?' She laughed, though, before getting me to sign a form relieving the hospital of all responsibility. When Dave and I got to Pembroke - me on crutches, left foot too heavily bandaged and swollen to get a climbing boot on - there were no soldiers, no sentries. We just hobbled in unchallenged. The first Iraq war had just started and they were all away. Hey ho! We did a new route in The Wash, I think - first on quite an impressive crag, but not a very distinguished line. It was the last time I climbed with Dave, who'd been a dear friend for years, fellow grit-fanatic, my mentor in the YCL and CPGB. He was knocked off his bike in Turkey whilst cycling round the Med the following year, flown back to England in a coma, and died a fortnight later. I still miss his company - nights on Edithna Street in Brixton, stocking up on booze from Momma Redstripe's, hungover Sunday trips down to High Rocks or Harrison's. Happy Days! The crepe bandage was far too tight. When I took it off a couple of days later, there was a phone number tucked inside.”
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on August 15, 2019, 03:45:04 pm
Just seen this one. (https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses/af31bdef-e9a5-4606-92e2-717648c2d2ed)  :o

Earlier in this thread I was sceptical as to the databases usefulness- I’ve come round to thinking it’s actually a good idea now. “Those who do not learn from the past...” etc.

Slightly off topic but I was reminded of the resource by coming across this gripping and tragic story (http://www.howardreplogle.com/essays/climbingacident/caccident.htm) last night. Quite a read.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 15, 2019, 06:30:01 pm
Just seen this one. (https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses/af31bdef-e9a5-4606-92e2-717648c2d2ed)  :o

Earlier in this thread I was sceptical as to the databases usefulness- I’ve come round to thinking it’s actually a good idea now. “Those who do not learn from the past...” etc.

Slightly off topic but I was reminded of the resource by coming across this gripping and tragic story (http://www.howardreplogle.com/essays/climbingacident/caccident.htm) last night. Quite a read.

Jeezus but did I do some backseat driving while reading that, to the point of blurting “Fucksssaaake!” out loud at one point (the not having prusik loops revelation/lack of plan and ability to ascend a rope. (Quite embarrassing, I’m sat at work, behind the reception desk of the wall and had to explain the whole thing to one of the climbers; who thought I was swearing at him)).

I started climbing when I was 8, in 1978, and had a Whillans harness from the get go. By 1984, I’d upgraded to the Joe Brown, my first proper sit harness. I never had anything like a Swami belt. I followed my father up a couple of pitches on El Cap, in ‘81 and we did a fair amount of single pitch stuff in the valley. I don’t recall the kit being particularly primitive around me. I feel I would have noticed, having grown up listen to my elders tales of “when men were men”.

Ironically, my first lead was on Idwal (either Faith, Hope or Charity, time dims the specifics), when I was 12, and the Falklands conflict was dominating everyday life, too.

1984, was the year I moved to San Jose, I was 14 and the family I lived with spent most of their free time (and nearly all the long summer break) in a cabin just outside the valley (Al, my temporary father, heading back to do 4/5 days straight of shifts as a Deputy Sheriff, then the same at the cabin). Again, I’m sure the kit we used and the stuff I saw around me was just a heavier version of what we use now.

I know I shouldn’t judge these guys, I’ve made some fucking stupid decisions in my time and had some appalling epics. But, ffs, to me at least, the difference between being raised into the climbing world from a young age, with baby steps all the way, under the guidance of those of so many years experience  (I thought old and stale, then) and trying to break into it in your 30s is striking.

I’m not trying to be patronising, I know it probably seems extremely so, but I’m just questioning the whole concept, because I’d never thought about it before. The things I take for granted (I work in a Bouldering wall. My bag (that I carry everywhere) has a stitch plate, prusik loops and 20mtr of para cord in it.

Yeah, yeah, I know. A bit weird. ( I also carry a first aid kit, a couple of torches, a sewing kit, a leatherman and have 10 mtrs of para cord around my right ankle and 6 on my key ring...
I’ve used all of it over the years).

Those of you you who came to climbing in adulthood, how did you learn your craft? If you climb Trad, how long/many routes did you second on before your first lead?


Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: cheque on August 16, 2019, 08:00:47 am
Those of you you who came to climbing in adulthood, how did you learn your craft? If you climb Trad, how long/many routes did you second on before your first lead?

I first climbed (ie top-ropes in trainers and hiking boots) when I was a kid in the Scouts but got into it again independently when I was 28. After 2 months of indoor bouldering I persuaded my (then) wife to drive me to a crag where I soloed. Nearly falling off twice didn’t stop me loving it but she didn’t take me again.

My mate who I went to the wall with (same age, same experience, same ability) had wheels and we’d go out bouldering but I really wanted to do trad so I’d solo whenever we were at crags with routes. I soon got some trad gear and just started leading routes with him seconding- my first lead was Leeds Crack, an HD at Ramshaw which was way easier than I’d solo so I just placed one wire which fell out. I was proud of my belay at the top but my mate pointed out that I’d tested it by just leaning out over the edge to see if it held me. :oops: He (rightly) thought I was fucking dangerous and he was far more into bouldering anyway so he palmed me off on an old schoolfriend of his who needed a partner.

This guy proved to be an excellent “mentor” for me as he was experienced and safety-conscious but had never pushed himself to try and climb hard so was happy to bumble about- kind of a yin to my yang. We had years of adventures until our objectives in climbing diverged but have started climbing together again more recently. God knows how long I’d have survived if we hadn’t met!

Presuming the write-up of that utterly gripping epic is true then that Don fella is a perfect example of the kind of guy that beginners should avoid like the plague but are ill-equipped to sniff out: wedded to romantic but impractical ideals and willing to escort beginners into situations that they aren’t prepared for themselves. Sadly I don’t think that kind of character is that rare in the world of trad climbing.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: sdm on August 16, 2019, 08:35:41 am
Those of you you who came to climbing in adulthood, how did you learn your craft? If you climb Trad, how long/many routes did you second on before your first lead?
I got in to climbing in my mid twenties. My first ever trad route was on lead (Topsail) and I think my second ever sport pitch was too (some polished choss at horseshoe). Not coming from an area with any rock, we didn't know anyone experienced to show us the ropes, we just read a few pages from a rope work book, headed out to the grit and made it up as we went along.

We made loads of mistakes along the way but we always had plenty of grades in hand so we got away with it (we had started off bouldering). Our rubbish headgame usually stopped us from getting in to real trouble, it took us a while before we would commit to any moves on gear that we couldn't reverse.

Some of the errors we made:
- Not being able to do the crux of a route, deciding to set up a belay just below and hand over to your partner to face a factor 2 if they fell
- Not learning how to prussic or jumar for a year and a half. Finally deciding to learn the day before heading out for our first mountain routes
- Not finding the belay on a 2 pitch route in the Pass, deciding to run 2 pitches together, running out of gear two thirds of the way up, and also having to untie the second rope because it was 5m short of reaching the top. All done with a storm lashing down on us.
- Getting off route on a 9 pitch sport route which was supposed to be a 5b and being confronted by an unavoidable 10m roof.

Had we got more in to trad rather than focusing on bouldering, we probably would have ended up the subject of one of these reports.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 16, 2019, 09:39:50 am
Yeah, I once broke through a cornice, on a ridge high above Saas Fee, during a tea break, on a day of Off piste, simply because I had my “ski” head on, instead of my “Mountaineer” head. I’d gone to snap a quick photo. I don’t remember much about the ~400’ fall, except my own voice calling me a total C&£t! over and over.

Did I ever mention, how much I appreciate the perfectly placed, deep, soft, snow drift?

Anyway, even a lifetime of experience, cannot prevent humans being human.

But, I guess the above stories confirm what I kinda feared...

Is there a good “paid for” alternative? A quick google seems to suggest it’s not so easy to find instruction beyond “School group top roping” type stuff.
I’ve not been a club member, since I left the RNRMMC in the mid ‘90s and that wasn’t a “meet in the pub, every Wednesday” type club, in fact I think we viewed it as a “source of expedition funding and necessary evil, for which we must prepare a presentation for the AGM and I’m not doing this year, one of you sods can put down the port for twenty minutes and blather about how many pounds of rations we consumed”...
Do clubs organise themselves as “teaching” hubs?

As a diver, club diving is heavily regulated/organised and very much geared to teaching. And I’ve always been a dive club member, where ever I’ve managed to find one. But diving requires that in a way climbing doesn’t (it’s probably much more dangerous, for a start).   
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on August 16, 2019, 10:07:54 am
There are good guides/ instructors everywhere (and I expect some not so good), who can do everything from taking novices out to coaching on harder trad and sport. No idea about clubs these days..
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on August 16, 2019, 10:22:17 am
The Yosemite story is an absolute horror. So many little mistakes made, each adding up to disaster. It's a wonder that they weren't both killed. It highlights to me how inexperienced I am. Sure, I've had to abseil off routes when it started to rain or we decided to bail or whatever, but generally we were descending the route we'd just climbed or we were within a rope's length of the floor on a relatively uncomplicated crag. I know how to prussik in theory, and I think I even practiced it once in my youth on the swing frame at my parent's house - but I've never had to properly prussik more than a couple of meters anywhere. I think the idea of prussiking out of a sea cliff (a friend once hand-over-handed up the rope to get out of the bottom of Wen Zawn  :o) with the rope possibly rubbing on an edge at the top would terrify me! I've never done any winter climbing or any alpine climbing or big walling. Proper punter, really.

I'll write something about clubs later.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on August 16, 2019, 10:28:36 am
I've only had to prussik once when we ignored an intermediate abseil point getting off Cat in the Hat at Red Rocks (the ab doesn't go down the route). Luckily the ropes refused to budge before one had gone out of reach. One rope had gone under the other on a slab and any pulling on the retrieval rope just jammed the other one down hard. Had a few worrying episodes abbing in the Alps and Verdon, but nothing I would call an actual incident.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Yossarian on August 16, 2019, 11:01:07 am
The person who originally got me into climbing was an inspiring to a young boy / totally reckless and irresponsible (in retrospect) uncle. He taught me the principles of prusiking. I then returned home, where a tree surgeon had left a rope tied off near the top of a huge cedar tree. My dad wasn’t particularly bothered about me hanging on the bottom as he doubted I would get very far. Some minutes later I was at the top. I was 8.

Most of the early climbing we did was sandstone top roping, but at school we did have access to an early DR wall - one of the concrete ones with bits of rock sticking out. We had acquired a small about of gear (some nuts and one rigid Friend 2 which I still have) - the “supervisors” had no idea what this stuff was for, so they just let us get on with it. We proceeded to spend the next couple of years taking progressively longer lead falls, usually onto one piece. There was a bit of woodchip at the bottom, which we tried to fall closer to without actually twatting ourselves.

That was why, when I joined the university climbing club, I led everything from the start. I don’t think I took anyone’s else’s gear out for a good couple of years.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: andy popp on August 16, 2019, 12:49:22 pm
Re: the Yosemite story. From my perspective, the team's failings/weaknesses were far more psychological than they were technical - they lacked the psychological and emotional composure to maintain good judgement and decision-making in a situation that had no need to become life threatening. Even if they'd had more technical skills in their bag I'm not sure they could have executed them. From this telling at least (and of course, we only have one witness' account), Don, despite being significantly more experienced, became irritable and rushed. Unspoken blame seemed to be floating around. They ceased functioning effectively as a team. It was the responsibility of the more experienced climber to maintain composure. Technical skills are one thing but in any trad climbing you have to be able to operate under a degree of duress; that ability can only developed through building experience and, critically, you can only begin to know where your own limits (the degree to which you can tolerate stress and maintain composure) might lie by gently, repeatedly pushing them forward.

Edit: I'm not saying technical skills are unimportant, just that they are not everything. Given my woeful lack of technical skills I'm probably extremely lucky never to have had anything approaching an epic.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: spidermonkey09 on August 16, 2019, 01:31:49 pm
I remember abbing in to do Rock Idol in massive seas in completely the wrong place and having to prussik back up the rope, having only ever done it for a few metres before. I was properly terrified for about 30 seconds before the more logical side of my brain kicked in and i started to think clearly. Maybe this is one of the reasons I'm a pansy sport climber now.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: danm on August 16, 2019, 02:11:40 pm
I think you're absolutely bang on with your comments there Andy. Skills and knowledge are important, but judgement and composure far more so. When I really got into winter climbing and alpinism, I did many things in relative safety that I'd never have considered attempting previously, and the factor making it possible was a partner who I trusted implicitly. Over around a decade of climbing at our limits on adventurous trad, winter and alpine routes, and at times under great emotional and physical strain, we never once disagreed about a mountaineering decision.

It's hard to describe that feeling of complete and utter confidence in your partners decision making, and ability to sort things out if something goes wrong and you need them to rescue you. On numerous occasions one of us would turn to the other and say "I think we should back off, or I reckon the route goes that way, or I think the weathers crapping out" and the other would puff out their cheeks in relief and say they'd just had exactly the same thought.

We never had a real accident in that time, just a couple near misses with rockfall, and I ended up leading pitches in the mountains as hard as anything I've ever done on an outcrop. All down to synchronicity with a partner who could charge hard when needed but was also never afraid to back down. Mind you I've loads of unclimbed routes left on my list as a result!
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Will Hunt on August 16, 2019, 02:37:57 pm
Andy's definitely right with that. According to the account, things weren't going great but it sounds like they could easily have spent the night on the ledge and made better decisions in the morning when they were hopefully calmer and had better visibility. You can see that Don becomes panicked by the idea of a night out (maybe with good reason, I've no idea just how cold it can get there in spring) and then it just seems that any sort of rationality goes out of the window. The decision to abseil into unknown territory, wearing those stupid swami things, with no means to get back up the rope and no gear to make a belay is just crazy but by that point they've decided that they just have to get off and they just career into it, desperate to get down somehow, anyhow.

The scary thing about it is that between the pair of them they were probably technically competent to sort the situation out, but the panic just crippled their capacity to make reasoned decisions. And panic is a thing that feeds itself and gets bigger and bigger and is hard to quell and put back in its box. They were almost doomed from the very moment that Don started to lose his nerve. You know that feeling where you've come through something scary and then you're ready for it to be done but you've got three pitches to go? "I've done my stint! Where's the fucking ice-cream van?"
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: SA Chris on August 16, 2019, 04:03:49 pm
in these situations it's easy restrict your yourself by cutting off safe escape options until you spiral towards where disaster is the only possible outcome. There is a name for the safety model, can't think of it right now. Reverse of the Swiss Cheese Model.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: duncan on August 16, 2019, 04:25:49 pm
That Yosemite tale is utterly grim. I got benighted in the Verdon in a very similar way early in my career. Neither of us were very experienced, we were totally out of our depth, but fortunately we didn't panic. We sat out the night on a ledge, suffered (it gets cold in March) but survived.

I did the classic pre-climbing wall progression of hill walking to scrambling to roped climbing. I was mostly self-taught except for two or three days with school teachers. No-one had any qualifications of course. My first ever roped climb, with one of the teachers, was Wrinkle in the pass. None of this easing-in with single pitch top-roping nonsense!

A group of us schoolkids were hooked. We started buying gear piece-by-piece and going out on our own almost immediately. I’d memorised Blackshaw (https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOUNTAINEERING-Alan-Blackshaw/dp/B000O6FTPG), and, bizarrely, our local library had a copies of Basic and Advanced Rockcraft  (https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Rockcraft-Royal-Robbins/dp/0910856346)so our ropework was probably not completely lethal. I could have prusiked up a rope and successfully tested this a couple of years later, in the dark, on the top pitch of Luna Bong (on a different occasion on the same Verdon trip!). We mostly climbed at Cheddar and Brean Down as they were accessible by public transport. Pre-bolts, these were exciting places for an inexperienced leader but I started as soon as the gear pool seemed adequate, on our third or fourth day out. The more gung-ho of the teachers also encouraged me to solo things like Cave Chimney at Uphill Quarry (now HVS). He found our bog-standard comprehensive in Weston a bit safe and soon left for somewhere a bit more challenging in inner-city Bristol. Probably a good move for both of us.

Even as beginners, the risks on vegetated limestone choss and crumbling sea cliffs were pretty obvious. I was scared on nearly every route but recognised or nurtured an aptitude for remaining composed despite this. I don’t recall any near-misses. Perhaps we were lucky but we were pretty aware of our inexperience, proceeded cautiously, not climbing anything harder than Severe for two years. I was a lot more dangerous once I started to think I was any good.

I’m a bit surprised now how relaxed our parents were about all this. Perhaps they correctly surmised we were a lot safer than if we’d been riding motorbikes, sniffing glue, or necking 8% scrumpy (from plastic gallon flasks, direct off the farm), the main leisure activities in 1970s rural Somerset.



Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: andy popp on August 16, 2019, 04:36:54 pm
Whew - I thought people my think I was being overly judgemental. Of course, the problem is that Don didn't know he was going to panic until he did. Perhaps he'd never been in a comparable situation before? Maybe he had and had been fine - I've witnessed a very good and experienced climber lose his nerve (at 20,000+ feet in the Himalayas no less)? But once he had the situation spiralled out of control. I believe a lot of this ability is innate, but it can clearly be developed and strengthened.

Duncan, my start in climbing was incredibly similar to yours, even down to the time and the place. I'll try and write a little about that later.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Paul B on August 16, 2019, 05:04:02 pm
I've become aware that for me, remaining rational and composed is very dependent on my energy levels. If I don't consistently force myself to eat (I've given up trying to be healthy ,refined sugar hits the spot) the slightest thing can tip me over the edge and once I'm gone, getting back to being rational takes an age.

I've always worried about the 'what if' (look back at my self-rescue thread for instance) scenarios climbing with my Wife who has been climbing for a significant number of years less than me and expresses far less interest in consuming information on the subject (especially rope work  :whip:). However, when I got myself in a mess climbing in ridiculous heat on the south face of El Cap when it was far too hot (the valley was literally on fire and had been closed to visitors; climbed and hauled 7 pitches, didn't drink very much etc.) she completely took the lead on getting us, and the significant amount of kit down safely (I couldn't stand up, was dry-heaving etc.). Since then I've worried less.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: Oldmanmatt on August 16, 2019, 07:18:10 pm
The one time I lost it, I was frost bitten, snow blind and pretty sure we were  already dead anyway; so a little deranged screaming into the wind seemed a minor indulgence.

I go all logical and stoney faced, when t’shite hits t’windmill, only to have an epic meltdown, shortly after the pressure is removed. I have been sworn at for being a “cold hearted cunt!” as the person in question put it. Not without cause.

If I’m lucky, I’ll make it somewhere private, before breaking. But I always break.

That’s not some sort of bravery thing, though. It’s just what happens when I concentrate, as anyone who ever tried to get my attention whilst I’m reading, can attest. Also, the stoney face does not reflect the voice at the back of my head, who has a very low opinion of both me and every decision I’ve ever made, and just won’t shut up about it.
Title: Re: BMC Near-Miss and Incident Reporting
Post by: petejh on August 16, 2019, 07:34:16 pm
Grim tale. But the threat of something like it happening is part of what makes the adventurous genres of climbing what they are.
I'm usually naturally cautious on adventurous stuff and have always been cynical about partners until they've proven to be trustworthy. But still I've stupidly climbed a grade IX winter route in the cairngorms and topped out to my partner belaying me just sitting in the snow on the top, when better option were available. Stupid complacent twat. A moral of the story seems to be - choose your partners well and be cautious even when out with the best ones. Sounds like the author didn't know enough to choose well and got lucky not to be killed as a result.
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal