Good morning all. With wall closures and other restrictions there might be more desire to seek "individual exercise" via Peak District climbing. I'm not going to make any judgement or have any discussion about the merits of doing so, but please consider adhering the best you can to the principles of social distancing and hygiene:
Avoid popular and honeypot crags, if there are significant numbers of people move on to somewhere else, explore off-piste and quiet areas to maintain social distance, consider travelling separately, always take hand gel or a flask of hot water and soap with you, maintain a sensible distance from belayer and spotter, and of course don't go out if you or any of your co-residents have any symptoms.
Now is not the time to be huddling under Remergence roof, queuing for Flying Buttress or having a big group meet at Horseshoe. Go explore and go quiet.
Like Chris said. Also the remoter and wilder the better.
It might also be worth considering the difference between outdoor activity during general covid restrictions, and outdoor activity when you are either infected or living with an infected person.
What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.
Plenty of folk up at bbg today apparently....
What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.
At this rate we are heading for total lock down
Is it essential you go out boulder?
I ll answer for you, NO!
It is totally selfish and irresponsible. I m going to go crazy too, stuck in doors, but if we all adopt a selfish whats the harm if i just nip out for a quick boulder attitude to help my mental health then everyone will be out doing their own thing and justifying it for 'my mental health'.
FFS think of other people.
At this rate we are heading for total lock down, (with police stopping and issuing fines etc) and it is because selfish irresponsible people are ignoring the government advice. (which admittedly is geared to shoring up our underfunded and overworked NHS)
So what worries me is when people say “I’m meeting my climbing partner and going to an esoteric venue” is that you have to assume either one of you could pass the virus on to the other.
I totally get the mental health aspect - less than a week inside and more than a week to go, it sucks [...]
It’s monumentally shit:
If I have the Corona virus—which is not unlikely even if I have no symptoms as the incubation period can be up to 14 days and I have a job where I meet a lot of young people—I will quite likely have spread the virus to many, including a climbing partner with bronchitis who in this case will be quite likely to die.
For example.
Hope you're well again soon Sean.
How's it going with you Falling Down?
I expect with the general lack of people taking social distancing seriously in the UK we'll end up under lock-down within a week or two.
I live within 10-30 mins drive of loads of crags and I know loads of truly obscure places to hide on them.
I intend to climb on these on my own or with my son until there is a clear prohibition.
I might well change my mind though if it becomes clear climbers are failing to practice strict social distancing and the only option is to knock it on the head.
Hope you're well again soon Sean.
How's it going with you Falling Down?
I expect with the general lack of people taking social distancing seriously in the UK we'll end up under lock-down within a week or two.
I live within 10-30 mins drive of loads of crags and I know loads of truly obscure places to hide on them.
I intend to climb on these on my own or with my son until there is a clear prohibition.
I might well change my mind though if it becomes clear climbers are failing to practice strict social distancing and the only option is to knock it on the head.
This exactly. Completely agree.
I’ve (now) stopped any long distance forays - there are plenty of obscure Lancs/Cheshire spots to go at. Today I went to the Wilton’s - no chalk anywhere. A caked chalk fest at a popular crag would be something I would certainly steer clear of.
Avoid contact with someone who is displaying symptoms of coronavirus (COVID-19). These symptoms include high temperature and/or new and continuous cough
Avoid non-essential use of public transport, varying your travel times to avoid rush hour, when possible
Work from home, where possible. Your employer should support you to do this. Please refer to employer guidance for more information
Avoid large gatherings, and gatherings in smaller public spaces such as pubs, cinemas, restaurants, theatres, bars, clubs
Avoid gatherings with friends and family. Keep in touch using remote technology such as phone, internet, and social media
Use telephone or online services to contact your GP or other essential services
Everyone should be trying to follow these measures as much as is pragmatic.
We strongly advise you to follow the above measures as much as you can and to significantly limit your face-to-face interaction with friends and family if possible, particularly if you:
are over 70
have an underlying health condition
are pregnant
You can also go for a walk outdoors if you stay more than 2 metres from others.
Plenty of folk up at bbg today apparently....
What happens if (for example) you’re at remergence. Normally someone else comes along “do you mind if I join in etc..” - will this happen? Will people say piss off I was here first! Or an awkward British silence.
Hint: Burbage is not esoteric. There are lots of resources that can direct you to bouldering that is suitable.
How's it going with you Falling Down?
Get well soon Sean
But... perhaps if we want people to give up what they love when what they love is watching the football in the pub, then we have to do the same.
Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
But... perhaps if we want people to give up what they love when what they love is watching the football in the pub, then we have to do the same.
I really can't see the equivalence here. One activity very clearly does not involve any sort of social distance, the other is practically the definition of if practiced cautiously and undertaken solo. Equating the two just doesn't make any sense.
Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.
that’s why I think I’ll be sneaking off to esoteric lowballs that are unpopular.
Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.
Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!
Nobody has come out and said, as yet, that healthy, young ish folk cant carry out their normal business, go to work, go to the shops, go for a run. etc.
people are still spraying on insta about doing problems at the tor and advertising lamp sessions which I think is pretty distasteful and irresponsible
If we get limited to local exercise it's a great time of year for birdwatching...
Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.
Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!
Are you saying climbers should be setting an example? If so, I think you're putting an awful lot of weight on what is still very much a niche activity.
Some pro cyclists (proper athletes no less) are stopping training on the road on the continent despite having official permission.
Is this because they wish to set an example, or because proper athletes are the most massively paranoid people about even common colds? Safer to stay in a private air con gym on a turbo trainer!
In France at least cycling is prohibited, basically you can't run or walk further than 2k from your home, that's on your own as well. Most likely the confinement will be extended to six weeks.
unfortunately here climbing is prohibited as well. DWS could be seen as suicide attempt, but guess would be seen as selfish ;)
2k might just include bell hagg for me. I'd stick to running in that case!
people are still spraying on insta about doing problems at the tor and advertising lamp sessions which I think is pretty distasteful and irresponsible
This I very much agree with.
unfortunately here climbing is prohibited as well. DWS could be seen as suicide attempt, but guess would be seen as selfish ;)
I jest of course. I might stash a bouldering pad though at a spot that will never b seen and just go for a "run" nearby.
Will, in response to the esoteric stuff I’m not sure it has to be super esoteric. It’s not a competition to find the least climbed bit of rock. If going out climbing is legit at all I don’t see any difference in going somewhere a little less esoteric and getting on something you want to do, (big cavaet coming) so long as there aren’t people on it already. Why would climbing that empty boulder be any worse than climbing your esoteric one? Your solution obviously heightens your chances of finding something deserted admittedly.
Bell Hagg is a good little venue, why not go clean it up so its even better.
Bell Hagg is a good little venue,
Will, in response to the esoteric stuff I’m not sure it has to be super esoteric. It’s not a competition to find the least climbed bit of rock. If going out climbing is legit at all I don’t see any difference in going somewhere a little less esoteric and getting on something you want to do, (big cavaet coming) so long as there aren’t people on it already. Why would climbing that empty boulder be any worse than climbing your esoteric one? Your solution obviously heightens your chances of finding something deserted admittedly.
Agree with this too. I reckon a lot of esoterica is less frequently travelled more because they tend to be limited to either a single problem or a handful of problems. If 5 people all turn up to try a single boulder problem at a crag with no other options, that's arguably worse than if those people all went to Caley but spread themselves out.
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get. Fondling the holds on Consenting after someone else has done with them is so clearly a bad idea. Makes me sad as I miss it and want to go back a lot!
Think you did the right thing for what its worth Jamie.
Genuine question, is this really any worse than fondling the tin of beans at the supermarket (or even home delivery)? Obviously we should wash our hands afterwards and not touch our face but it seems the risk of transmission would be incredibly low in this scenario?
Bell Hagg is a good little venue, why not go clean it up so its even better.
Accept that like during Foot and Mouth it may rise in popularity though.
Lots of climbers were sulking online but the venues were never that busydespitebecause of the quality.
Lots of climbers were sulking online but the venues were never that busydespitebecause of the quality.
Fixed ;)
It's funny for the eilte but for bumblies like me Wharncliffe is different....
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get.
Genuine question, is this really any worse than fondling the tin of beans at the supermarket (or even home delivery)? Obviously we should wash our hands afterwards and not touch our face but it seems the risk of transmission would be incredibly low in this scenario?Other corona viruses can survive on surfaces for up to 9 days but some think significantly longer in cold conditions. Not sure about chalky holds at caley. You would think a long time at the glassy malham.
Going to Malham at all at the moment I don't really get.
Agree. Very public and, from Sheffield, a 2 hour drive each way! Although I'm not sure what distance/duration is considered acceptable.
In contrast Lyme park was full on the way there and back when we went past...
There’s lots of good thoughtful advice on this thread but if you are climbing on the same bloc with someone you do not live with, that’s a dick move.
Sorry if that’s harsh. Still wound up by my walk.
Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned
There’s lots of good thoughtful advice on this thread but if you are climbing on the same bloc with someone you do not live with, that’s a dick move.
Sorry if that’s harsh. Still wound up by my walk.
Agree. I don't think that's any different to what many have been saying. It's not harsh, it's the (utterly mind-boggling) reality.Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned
Even with all those things banned, I still think climbing exclusively on your own is okay. In fact watching the briefing at the moment the Deputy CMO has specifically called out exercise on your own outside as something she would encourage.
Stu, did your walk in any way make you reconsider your decision not to climb? I find it really hard to think of binning off climbing when everyone else is still doing way dumber stuff (going to the pub, meeting up for picnics, going out for meals etc.)
EDIT: much of the above just banned
Reconsidering your communal board sessions yet? :worms:
I think our decision not to climb at all is over cautious but I’m happy with it.
I’ve never been one to think “fuck it, if everyone else is doing it...” If you keep the moral high ground and the world does go full zombie apocalypse at least I’ll not feel I made it worse.
I am still fuming though, but I alternate between being mad at the government for not being clearer and mad at the individuals for being berks.
Fake news... (from me - sorry) car park wasn’t full (signs said it was) they’ve closed the estate to all except pedestrians.
In contrast Lyme park was full on the way there and back when we went past...
National Trust are going to seriously regret making everything free. Intentions were good though.
I don't think they're malicious, I think they just don't get their heads around exponential growth. Mass of the population have form in not grasping the compound interest they pay (but don't seek to earn by saving) is what keeps them working for the man; so why would they understand compound growth in deaths among people they'll never meet. Frustrating yes but surprising, really?
I don't think they're malicious, I think they just don't get their heads around exponential growth. Mass of the population have form in not grasping the compound interest they pay (but don't seek to earn by saving) is what keeps them working for the man; so why would they understand compound growth in deaths among people they'll never meet. Frustrating yes but surprising, really?
That doesn't mean I feel any less anger at these c**ks when me and all my colleagues are shitting ourselves about trying to get effective PPE in rural Derbyshire and being sent out to crisis patients and hospital discharges with no idea if they're infected.
I think this degree of willful carelessness should merit punishment. Unfortunately Im sure the police have better things to do.
Pictures on TV over coming weeks may have an impact on people’s behaviour. Fear may do more than govt recommendations.
Various reports of popular crags super busy with groups today...
Various reports of popular crags super busy with groups today 🤯
Why couldn’t have corona coincided with the terrible weather we’ve had up until now...
Is this Brean, Duma?
Is this Brean, Duma?
No, Tirpentwys (S Wales sandstone). Brean is about the last crag I'd describe as fairly quiet! I wouldn't consider it at the weekend atm.
Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.
Started a poll.
Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.
Undecided what outdoor climbing, if anything, is acceptable.
:'(
why do you think the UK isn't going to follow in terms of infection rates?
Had two hours out up here. Never saw a soul, no walkers either. Typically of county crags it didn’t actually look like anybody had been there in months.
15 mins drive from the house, no high balls and guess my feet never went more than 6 ft off the deck.
Can’t see how I put anyone at risk and it’s cleared my head after a mental week.
Having read comments and reflected I agree travelling to and climbing on Malham Catwalk is unacceptable.
Did you go to Malham today? Heard it was like a bank hol weekend up there...
Re the poll, there's a big diff in my mind between solo bouldering on highball/sketchy landings/remote stuff and solo bouldering on lowball/decent landing/nearby stuff. Also I do think it's possible, though tricky and more effort, to sport climb with a partner you don't live with. Not lift sharing to start with would make a big diff.
My day was inadvertently Covid mindful. I intended to climb at an esoteric crag, couldn't find it, walked for an hour though deep mud carrying mats, gave up and went home and spent an hour and a half on my neglected Beastmaker.
Probably the best result in the circumstances - isolated exercise in the open air, then maintaining climbing strength in a fairly risk free manner. Providing there is no lockdown, I might make a habit of it - visiting crags with long walk-ins, to eye up future projects and keep psyched, but not climbing, and keeping my fingers in shape by fingerboarding.
PS Incidentally, using the Beastmaker app made me realise why I avoid repeater based protocols - too much like hard work! I thought I had decent finger strength but I can barely do the 2nd easiest routine! (it involves back 2 hangs, crikey). Still, I guess I'm going to have plenty of time to improve!
Given the rhetoric that is coming out of Bojo’s office today, we’re days away from shut down.
Given the rhetoric that is coming out of Bojo’s office today, we’re days away from shut down.
Weird for an arch Libertarian to be taking the lead on this
Yesterday I was a 3 on the poll list - today I’m a 4.
I see all the articles about idiots going out in groups and doing things - and realise that really I’m an idiot. My trip to the boulders - whilst very good for my wellbeing - is completely non-essential.
My concern is that this is going to go on for a year or more and it's not practical to isolate for that entire period. I think we will end up in a complete lockdown because that will be the only way to get the careless to comply, but is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population? For instance, I'm quite worried about my kids' development if housebound for a year. Then there's obesity etc
is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population?
My concern is that this is going to go on for a year or more and it's not practical to isolate for that entire period.
Having our kids cooped up or just doing garden/back yard based activities is far from ideal - but better do this for a year than 100k people die?? Etc..
I'm concerned that Italy has far stronger social distancing measures in force than the UK at the moment but currently it doesn't seem to be working.
Weird for an arch Libertarian to be taking the lead on this
I have to say I respect what Johnson is doing. I think he's trying his best to give people s chance to behave sensibly before legally enforceable measures are brought in.
is responsible climbing/walking as discussed above really that dangerous when compared against the threats associated with a housebound population?
This I think is the salient point. Responsible, solo, bouldering and walking, from everything I've seen, is pretty much completely safe from a transmission perspective and has multiple benefits.
Separately, we might end up having to stop doing it because people are simply incapable of acting responsibly in general. It has nothing to do with whether the activity itself is a risk (which it really isn't).
I'm concerned that Italy has far stronger social distancing measures in force than the UK at the moment but currently it doesn't seem to be working.
It's going to be very messy for anyone in the NHS, everyone I know who works in healthcare is pretty scared right now. Lack of direction from management and lack of PPE equipment. Can you believe Sheffield have no FFP3 masks.
And it's not just old people dying, it's other patients not getting their treatment and operations because all resources are being deployed on this.
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.
It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.
how many people die in the UK, it's ~600k/yr. Obviously 100k is a number plucked somewhat from thin air, but (big but), were this to be accurate, that's a 17% increase
We are asking many young people, families, etc to make enormous sacrifices to save a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.
...
For example we have a six year old that is an only child, is it really fair to keep him on his own for the next 3-6mths? That seems like nigh on child cruelty to me...
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.
It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.
Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd
I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable.
Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad.
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.
I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.
Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.
I'll posit that in about 10-15 years we'll have a phrase in usage. Corona Kid. Noun. A person of a particular generation who is socially maladjusted or intellectually stunted due to a period of necessary isolation during the 2020-21 Coronavirus pandemic.
Then there'll be those kids who are actually killed or otherwise critically neglected by their parents during the shut down.
Similarly there could be several thousand NHS staff who'll never return to work and spend the rest of their lives on benefits suffering with PTSD.
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...
If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.
This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.
This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.
If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.
My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.
As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.
Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.
Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.
If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.
If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.
It’s going to be hard, after this, to respect a lot of people.
Couldn't agree more. I'm reading elsewhere that some tosser took a big fall off of Cyrn Las yesterday and had to be rescued. Should have been left to die, or self-rescue by crawling back to fucking Sussex. I hope they're being treated with the contempt they deserve in Ysbyty Gwynedd
I really don’t think this kind of language or way of discussing things is acceptable. I think if you feel this way you are better not posting at all. I would much rather we have a vigorous discussion about what is acceptable etc and try to see each other’s points of view without resorting to black and white offensive statements as above
Dave
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...
If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.
This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.
This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.
If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.
My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.
As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.
Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.
Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.
If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.
Completely with you on this Matt. Here in France there is still a debate about what you can and can't do, as if finding loopholes is somehow a worthwhile thing to do. Get a grip people!
This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.
Since Simon didn’t like my last post...Question:
If you feel, that anyone in the threatened brackets, is an acceptable sacrifice (as in, for them to die or suffer) so that you might continue to pursue your hobby; then the next time you meet one of them, explain to them why it it is so.
This is not JUST about the elderly. It doesn’t even need to be a particularly “serious” underlying health condition, Asthma will do and you fit the bill for an unpleasant few weeks in ICU of death.
This isn’t a nice death (if there is such a thing), this is a slow, hours, days or even weeks, choking on your own bodily fluids. If you’ve ever watch someone die of Cancer (oedema) you’ll have an image of that to draw on.
If you think, the economic cost, of letting the hospitals collapse under the weight of pandemic levels of demand, the deaths, the mourning, the anger and resentment, etc etc, is somehow less than the cost of a temporary shutdown; then you are not actually allow for the former in your thinking.
My younger sister, diabetic (with a diabetes induced heart condition) gets up every day and goes to the Royal Devon and Exeter hospital, where she works as an administrator (not even front line) and tries to keep things going. She was already breaking down in tears, last weekend, just getting ready for it.
As I stated in the removed post, it’s going to be really difficult to respect some people when this is all over.
Get a grip. This isn’t flu, it isn’t just “Old” people who would die anyway. Just because it’s “mainly” so, does not excuse writing off all those others.
Now, if you are sure your reasoning is good and the cost is not worth the sacrifice, perhaps you should next consider if “putting people out of their misery” should be acceptable? Because, like it or lump it, it’s no less a reasonable argument, under the logic of the first assumption.
If you’re not willing to tell someone they are not worth saving, stay at home.
Totally get your thinking here Alex but i reckon 100k would be a really good outcome from where we are now if the medium article is right, social distancing is applied loosely and the virus mutates etc. It could be really bad.
Yeah, I fear you're right, I was just struck by Tomtom's post, because at 100k (just the number he wrote down) it's not clear to me that a 12 month lockdown would be worth it. Purely from a tax and spend perspective, the economic difference would probably be so large that you could (in theory) take the difference in government coffers between the two scenarios and spend that money on increased funding elsewhere to save more than 100k lives. The numbers here are conjecture, but I'm sure you get the general point. As I write this it occurs to me that the gov is no doubt doing the same sums behind closed doors, and that the shudowns and resulting stimulus package we've already seen might imply that they're pretty scared about how big the numbers could get.If your climbing is more important than someone else’s life, you are a fucking cunt.
I didn't see your post before it was removed so I only have Muencher's quote to go off, but I'd suggest you've not really thought hard about this. Every time you drive to the crag you increase the chances of someone dying in an RTA (indeed, this is being used as an example of why not to drive to places further away right now). But you, and I, still do it, despite the fact that that you believe that that makes you, and I, a fucking cunt. It's all probabilities and stats, and there's a debate to be had about where those probabilities and stats sit, whether the self-righteous vitue-signalling part of you likes it or not.
a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.
Amen to that, brethren. Recommended reading for anyone still thinking about finding loopholes:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html?utm_source=fb&fbclid=IwAR03kX55HtUS8tvRwiXw8E_Uf6JEjkENPKAcX-Lp-veBycQJ5koN_NsjgJc
Stay safe.
As above, it's not just the elderly. There are people who post on this board who are immuno-suppressed, or their partner is, or someone they love is otherwise at risk.
I completely understand Matt's post, and brutal language is useful for shocking others into action. But. We're in the process of a complete paradigm shift in what is acceptable. The rate of progression of public thought over the past week has been unlike anything we've ever known. It is regrettable, but ultimately understandable, that various people in different demographics are at different points on the progression. If we rip each other to shreds with a complete scorched earth policy in this transition period then the long months ahead are going to be made much more unpleasant.
UKB should be like family. We need to stick together and be decent to each other.
a large number of elderly people, of whom many would die anyway.
Yeah, fuck 'em.
Have we not decided on a course of action as a society and whether we personally agree with the approach should be immaterial in how closely we follow the rules. Otherwise as a society we still get all of the negatives of the social isolation policy but also thousands of unnecessary deaths. Just because some people think that as they know best the rules shouldn't apply to them.
Perhaps our most significant conclusion is that mitigation is unlikely to be feasible without emergency surge capacity limits of the UK and US healthcare systems being exceeded many times over. In the most effective mitigation strategy examined, which leads to a single, relatively short epidemic (case isolation, household quarantine and social distancing of the elderly), the surge limits for both general ward and ICU beds would be exceeded by at least 8-fold under the more optimistic scenario for critical care requirements that we examined. In addition, even if all patients were able to be treated, we predict there would still be in the order of 250,000 deaths in GB, and 1.1-1.2 million in the US.
In the UK, this conclusion has only been reached in the last few days, with the refinement of estimates of likely ICU demand due to COVID-19 based on experience in Italy and the UK (previous planning estimates assumed half the demand now estimated) and with the NHS providing increasing certainty around the limits of hospital surge capacity.
We therefore conclude that epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time. The social and economic effects of the measures which are needed to achieve this policy goal will be profound. Many countries have adopted such measures already, but even those countries at an earlier stage of their epidemic (such as the UK) will need to do so imminently.
Our analysis informs the evaluation of both the nature of the measures required to suppress COVID19 and the likely duration that these measures will need to be in place. Results in this paper have informed policymaking in the UK and other countries in the last weeks. However, we emphasise that is not at all certain that suppression will succeed long term; no public health intervention with such disruptive effects on society has been previously attempted for such a long duration of time. How populations and societies will respond remains unclear.
Alex - I thought tomtoms post earlier summed up why climbing should be avoided. Basically it is non essential travel and social contact. What do you think the government have asked us to do?
[Perhaps I've missed it but to me it seems that the talk has all been about social distancing and avoiding unnecessary social interactions.
Looks like it was from yesterday? In which case they've not done a very good job of pushing it hard IMO
You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.
You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.
This is my take on the current advice.
But isn't this the problem, surely we shouldn't need to have a take on it because it's explicit and well communicated??
Guess April is fingerboard month.
You could also arguably interpret the advice as don't go outside except: to buy food/medicine, work if unable to WFH, and limited exercise close to home by yourself or with other householder.
This is my take on the current advice.
Yup.
Guess April is fingerboard month.
And May and June poss a bit of July.
Fascinating discussion, keep it up folks.
It was the same up in the Highlands this weekend. Yesterday I went to a minor boulder 15mins from home that I've never ever seen other people at in my 10 years of regular visits and there were people there yesterday, aiming to escape other popular places I guess. Fortunately they were leaving as i arrived but still, a surprise.
My dilemma is what constitutes essential travel. I'm a self employed ecologist and work currently involves driving to remote forests in the Highlands to spend the day doing surveys without seeing anyone else, then driving home again. I'm isolated from any one all day long. Its work that can't be done from home but it's not essential for society to function. But it is essential for my bank balance. Thoughts?
Fascinating discussion, keep it up folks.
It was the same up in the Highlands this weekend. Yesterday I went to a minor boulder 15mins from home that I've never ever seen other people at in my 10 years of regular visits and there were people there yesterday, aiming to escape other popular places I guess. Fortunately they were leaving as i arrived but still, a surprise.
My dilemma is what constitutes essential travel. I'm a self employed ecologist and work currently involves driving to remote forests in the Highlands to spend the day doing surveys without seeing anyone else, then driving home again. I'm isolated from any one all day long. Its work that can't be done from home but it's not essential for society to function. But it is essential for my bank balance. Thoughts?
I filled the car using pay at pump yesterday, so this week's fuel is sorted.
And yeah, pretty much no chance of meeting anyone while out working. But still, it feels a bit odd when the general feeling is that you should only really be leaving the house to buy food.
And yeah, pretty much no chance of meeting anyone while out working. But still, it feels a bit odd when the general feeling is that you should only really be leaving the house to buy food.
Cheers, sorry teestub, im finding it hard to stay in top of all the info. Sounds like unless that crags in your garden, you are going against advice.
Id probably work if I were you, but id be paranoid about touching anything, e.g. gates etc.. Good luck!
Must he very hard Sam. I am really very relieved now that my last close elderly relative died in January
Must he very hard Sam. I am really very relieved now that my last close elderly relative died in January
I'm not sure it's relief, but I had similar thoughts about my own parents. However, my late wife's parents are still alive and in their 80s. I worry about them but sadly we're estranged at the moment.
Your situation sounds tough Sam; I hope they make it through.
This thing's moving so fast that yesterday's opinion counts for nothing and we'd all do well to be hyper cautious.
some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800.
some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800.
The in-laws are still treating Aus. (Sydney) like a holiday saying they'll stay another week or so then fly back (and not bothering their Son in terms of getting them shopping etc.). The government advice on this is still pretty unclear (if I've misread it then please point me in the correct direction); I take it to mean don't travel anywhere unless you have to, they seem to think that includes coming home.
some strong words brought him more up to date and he then spent £800.
The in-laws are still treating Aus. (Sydney) like a holiday saying they'll stay another week or so then fly back (and not bothering their Son in terms of getting them shopping etc.). The government advice on this is still pretty unclear (if I've misread it then please point me in the correct direction); I take it to mean don't travel anywhere unless you have to, they seem to think that includes coming home.
The conversations I'm talking about were a few days ago now, so I'm not sure what the guidance was at that time. I'm not sure what I'd advise your in-laws to do, but one factor is that Sydney will probably be a much easier place to stick around than Kathmandu.
Just been to Sainsbury’s, the bakery and post office wearing a mask.Good on you. It strikes me that fear of embarrassment is the main reason we aren't all wearing homemade mask. That and the myth that they don't reduce risk. The science is clear, even homemade masks lower risk.
People looking at me in horror.
No outdoor climbing statement on UKC
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370
Assume the BMC will do something similar in due course...
No outdoor climbing statement on UKC
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370
Assume the BMC will do something similar in due course...
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.
I don't think the poll attached to this thread is particularly valid. I suspect the consensus is moving and people's vote yesterday or the day before may not necessarily match their view today or tomorrow.
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.
The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.
The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.
Thumbs up from the Dear Leader for one form of exercise a day.
The way I interpreted that was from your house. Just me?
People in the UK will only be allowed to leave their home for the following purposes:
Shopping for basic necessities, as infrequently as possible
One form of exercise a day – for example a run, walk, or cycle – alone or with members of your household
Any medical need, to provide care or to help a vulnerable person
Travelling to and from work, but only where this is absolutely necessary and cannot be done from home
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.
Gaz - if your work is non essential - then I’d say no.
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.
Gaz - if your work is non essential - then I’d say no.
I'm still confused where this leaves me. It feels pretty daft to go out to work doing bird surveys at a time like this but he said travelling for work is ok if it can't be done from home.
Every climber who has already got a road bike or a pair of running shoes was one step ahead!
There still seems to be some ambiguity with this that’s actually just down to where the word ‘essential’ appears.
Don't know why the media are reporting the advice as 'crystal clear'.
Someone I know just messaged me this about going outside for recreation:
''I'm choosing to interpret it as broadly as possible! I think the government are hoping people will interpret it as narrowly as possible!''
Said like a member of the species that invented lawyers ::)
Messaging is still clear as mud.
Messaging is still clear as mud.
Totally agree.
I run an experimental wind turbine that get used for research and development, but also generates electricity for the grid and helps us tackle climate change. If our projects go back a year, that could delay crucial progress that might save a lot more lives through reducing climate change. But how the hell do you weight those things up? We're currently prioritising essential maintenance, but what about essential projects? If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?
I should add, many of the site guys in the company attend multiple construction sites a day (which are still open) travelling up and down the country. They are the perfect vectors for virus dispersal.
And that is one of thousands of similar businesses which will still remain open until they’re specifically told to stop.
the construction industry is quite cut throat and the last thing we need is to drop clients right in the shit.
If we find some new tech or control theory that improves wind farm output by 5%, is that worth the risk?
To be fair to the government, the reason that they can't be more specific is that the types of work that go on in this country are so varied that they can't possibly sit down and go through it in the detail that people seem to want.
"You're a plumber so you can go and fix a burst at somebody's house if it's pissing water everywhere, but you can't go and fit a new bathroom, but maybe you can go and finish installing a new kitchen if it means they can cook food.
And now onto the carpenters..."
The stuff mentioned thus far sounds non-essential to me. The thing I have to grapple with is river water quality studies. We have sampling kit in rivers and sewers right now which needs to be maintained by two person teams. The contractor has a very few people who could go out in pairs to do this who live in the same household. The data that we collect drives studies which are required by our regulator (an arm of government). If we stop collecting useful data we will need, possibly, a sizeable extension to the delivery deadline of the studies, which in turn will affect the government's ability to write the next River Basin Management Plan within the legally required timeframe.
So if government won't grant an extension then that makes the work essential. But you're all going to tell me that it's not. The crux is that all our work sounds essential to us because we all care about it. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether we care about it more than somebody else's gran or vulnerable loved one. Because if I send out 4 people to move around the region maintaining monitors, then why shouldn't somebody else move around to maintain their wind turbines, or sign off their houses? Multiply by thousands upon thousands of business equals business as usual equals unnecessary death.
Speaking to contractors today, they sounded desperate. There's going to be a lot of pain ahead, but the instruction has come from the top. The very top. And it is the government's job to minimise that pain by supporting businesses so they can keep their staff in pay.
Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage :wall:
Driving back from Edale this morning (we had been staying out there, long story) saw someone going out bouldering at 8 o'clock this morning at Burbage :wall:
Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:
“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”
And then deleted it and changed it to:
“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”
No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.
I can understand this behaviour is infuriating to us, and we maybe expect better from climbers for some reason(?)
But it’s still ok to go into work in enclosed spaces, unavoidably mixing with many other people.
People can’t be expected to make sensible choices in their free time when at work the advice seems completely counterintuitive to the general government guidance.
Toby - I do work from home generally in normal times. And always now. Face to face meetings have switched to Skype or Teams.
But I’m referring to the site operatives. The construction sites remain open. Clients still expect work to be carried out. And the work involves travelling often to multiple sites in a day. So as i said upthread the CEO emailed last night to say site workers would continue to attend site. And no update this morning other than the government confirming that construction sites stay open...
Number 10 tweeted an Emergency Covid-19 Alert last night stating:
“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (if you’re a key worker)”
And then deleted it and changed it to:
“The only reasons you may leave home - To go to work (but work from home if possible)”
No wonder they’re causing so much confusion.
This ^^^^
Our tester sent us a screen grab of the 'key worker' version. I however, could not find it anywhere on the gov website last night. only the 'essential work' version. So we were flummoxed as to what to do. Didn't sleep well.
But at 3am, (yes 3am) he texted a tweet from Robert Jenrick - Sec. of State for Housing .
that categorically says if working on site, continue to do so.
https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836?s=20
Then on This morning, Gove announced in interview that construction industry is to continue.
So put me at ease a little bit that we're not flying in the face of the lockdown. (At the same time, acutely aware that it's not necessarily the 'right' thing to be doing).
But, like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop. Our guy seems relatively happy to continue, as far as I can tell, and he'd fully decked with gloves, sanitiser, wipes etc and we're confident that he can keep himself to himself on site.
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”.
I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills at this rate 😡
Simple:
https://placestovisitthisweekend.com/
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.
Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.
I agree. I don’t know the guy but he’s in my club and I posted as much. His argument is he was less likely to come into contact with others than on a short, local run. Which might make sense to an extent but it just sends out the message to “carry on as normal”. I need to start researching dreadmills at this rate 😡
I felt like him a little, and you will come in to contact with less people but I agree with it sending the wrong message.
I understand this view, and I'm in a similar position at them moment. But the situation doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not being critical of you personally SamT)
Personally I think there’s a strong argument for Strava to be suspended (as UKC suspended the logging of routes) though I can see the argument against this.
On my way to work this morning I saw someone pulling up to caley with pads in the car. Argh :o
Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.
I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.
I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?
One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.
I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.
I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.
Not from Miami to Canada then?I can't run at the moment. So walking. How far is too far?
One person's walk is another person's stroll in the park.
Are you one of the Proclaimers?
No?
Not 500 miles then.
Out of interest how far does someone go on that length of run? I'm just trying to think of the equivalence on a bike with respect to when I next exercise.
You can use language to make the decisions more palatable - for e.g. 'like nearly everyone in any business, we're going to keep going till categorically told to stop.'
'until categorically told to stop' - appeal to authority. The rule doesn't outlaw it so it is acceptable to do. If the rule didn't categorically tell you not to jump off cliffs, would you jump off cliffs?
Word from our weird corner of the environmental/construction world is that the supply chain across the country (including plant, quarries and waste disposal) is shutting down, so will be surprised if construction stays viable for much longer.
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.
Hardware stores now closing.
Well B&Q at least.
Thoughts on 2.5 hour runs being posted on Strava this morning? Feels like the running world needs to get its act together. I’m as much a runner as a climber thesedays and I can’t see how long runs could be considered “staying at home”. I’ll be doing short local runs and focusing on strength work.
Which is where we were last week, hence why I went out on Kinder on Sunday accepting that would be it for the foreseeable.
Anyway, I think it’s pretty unambiguous here with the key word being *minimising*:
1. STAYING AT HOME
You should only leave the house for one of four reasons.
● Shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible.
● One form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household.
● Any medical need, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.
● Travelling to and from work, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home.
These four reasons are exceptions - even when doing these activities, you should be minimising time spent
outside of the home and ensuring you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874742/Full_guidance_on_staying_at_home_and_away_from_others__1_.pdf
I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.
I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.
Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.
I just don't get how with standard welfare provisions (drying rooms, toilets, canteens, morning briefings etc.) you (people) can comply with the SD requirements:
This should probably be on the other thread but at what point are the employer not providing sufficient PPE (https://www.hse.gov.uk/toolbox/ppe.htm) for such a situation :worms:.What concerns me more is how much PPE will be expended in lower risk situations on construction site etc, which would more usefully be transferred to the nhs to protect front line staff. Again greater clarity from the govt is required, to free up a huge reservoir of masks, gloves, disposable overalls etc.
You could define a local run as: 'could limp home from any point if you badly sprained your ankle.'
I'm not preaching to anyone, or saying don't, just make your own choices and be sensible.
I am. People should very clearly not be climbing now. My position has evolved like everyone elses, but anyone continuing to climb now while everyone else is sacrificing the things they love is a selfish twat.
I generally visit family in .uk in the school summer holidays (looking unlikely this year), and post on the ukc partners forums when I manage to get away for a few days. Have had some good times & met some great folks by doing so, but the list of obvious twats I would turn down offers to climb with has grown dramatically in the last week or so.
Club swinging, is a great aerobic upper body workout. Clubs can be improvised with dumbbells, if you have them.
Make a slosh pipe?
https://www.fitnessblender.com/articles/slosh-pipe-workout-the-best-slosh-pipe-exercises
I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.
Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.
The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!
https://vimeo.com/400504271
I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.
Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.
The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!
https://vimeo.com/400504271
Great fun Dave! I'm confused by what becomes Palma Violence (great name!) and the problem shown from above immediately before. They appear to be the same problem but you're wearing different clothes. Am I confused?
Harry Palma would be another good know (old Michael Caine character).
Please can we have names and grades for all problems in future? Ta :)
I made one a few years back - they’re absolute bastards and great fun. Just holding it above your head is a full body workout.
I’ve unpacked the weights for the first time in years - gonna get :strongbench:
Palmistry for the superstitious. Charterhouse of Parma for the Stendhal fans out there. The palmed off etc puns are endless. :popcorn:I debated whether to upload this video but all the problems were climbed before the government lock down on March 23rd and before the BMC asked us to not go climbing or hill walking. During my times visiting Doll Tor I didn't see another person walking in or out and definitely not whilst at the crag. I am also pretty sure no one else visited on the days I wasn't there.
Anyway, disclaimer out of the way here are a few new mantle's and Brain Storm, a brilliant low start to Gathering Storm. I hope people enjoy the video; the quiet, the sounds, the scenery and the climbing and can use it for a bit of training motivation in these strange times.
The rock will still be there when all this is over, although maybe a little more moss covered. Enjoy!
https://vimeo.com/400504271
Great fun Dave! I'm confused by what becomes Palma Violence (great name!) and the problem shown from above immediately before. They appear to be the same problem but you're wearing different clothes. Am I confused?
Harry Palma would be another good know (old Michael Caine character).
Any competitive dads with young kids enjoy doing sport with them now as it gets hard when your in your 50s and they are 16+. I can just keep ahead of him on squats and DL despite me weighing nearly 30kg more than him and cardio i might as well just give up.
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.
Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.
Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.
This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M
there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.
Neither of which apply when the Government guidance is that construction sites can remain open if social distancing is carried out. The simple fact is that if businesses are debating whether to stay open or not they're highly likely to come down on the side of staying open unless forced to close either by HMG or public pressure as with Sports Direct this morning.
This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment):
https://www.building.co.uk/news/site-shutdowns-prompted-by-health-and-safety-legislation-lawyer-says/5105225.article?fbclid=IwAR03ESx4TDnVXWO5BRnJASvDUFGMjG5kQTeqWN4atwuaga8ZnOjsniXWR3M
This was my situation yesterday when I called a client. I was hoping they were going to say they didn't want the project starting next week. Instead they were talking to me as if nothing was wrong, and actually wondered why I hadn't got started already! So I made sure I could get my guys' pay Furloughed then I emailed the client back later yesterday and told them we couldn't go ahead with the project work due to the risk from covid-related stuff. It's fucking ridiculous how blind and reckless some clients and employers are being about it, while others have been sensible.
....I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....
....I used to be a rope access project manager, and in risk assessment terms even if you travel separately, keep 2m, have dedicated personal kit, wear all ppe, and ensure all welfare facilities are wiped down after each use (ps how likely is that in reality?), then you still have rescues. It might be a rare occurence and you could rig for rescue if applicable and put new gloves by the rigging but it starts to raise questions about whether its all worth it....
I don’t remember you ever providing welfare facilities Nige. ;)
This is pretty much what I was trying to say (and failing), in that if you follow the hierarchy of the legislation (HSAW, The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations, PPE etc.), you simply can't comply with what the government is saying (you won't be able to justify it on a risk assessment)there are two things that the PM can never instruct, one being something illegal, the second being something unsafe.
I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201
Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??
I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.
Following on from the government’s guidance on social distancing in relation to COVID-19, people should avoid travelling unless it is essential.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52055201
Mixed messages again, with the police being criticised by David Gauke. So is he saying its OK to drive out to Curbar for a walk, or isn't it??
I think most on here think it isn't, and I agree.
To be fair we took the kids down the park yesterday mid-afternoon and it was really quiet. I guess most people walk dogs in the morning and evening. I appreciate that I live in suburbia where everyone has gardens and we have woods nearby, so this won’t be representative. Just saying not all parks are rammed.
I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.
Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:
https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/
TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car.
Because at the moment hardly anyone is working. If the Peak was ‘open’ half of Sheffield and Manchester would be out there with their portable BBQs. It will be like a Bankie every day of the week.
Until they work out a way to ‘police’ the countryside (lots of Park Rangers Yosemite stylee) I can see why the easiest option is just to shut it.
Or, it’s just open to those lucky enough to live in it or 3 miles away. What about the mental health of those who live 4 miles away?
So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.
Some SCIENCE for y'all just in:
https://quillette.com/2020/03/27/covid-19-science-update-for-march-27-super-spreaders-and-the-need-for-new-prediction-models/
TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.I'm really hoping that everyone stays out of the Peak District this weekend. I don't care how built up it is wherever they live, it's just not within the law to drive into a national park for a bit of a jolly and lounge around having a picnic. That in no way constitutes exercise whilst minimising time out of the house.
Incidentally I'm not implying that anyone who posts on here is that stupid but sadly it appears that some are. Been at work in the peak this week, and on this weekend, noticed a disappointing handful of cars at several popular places. Mainly walkers I think, not actually seen any climbers out, fortunately.
So this, I'm afraid isn't being borne out by the science. The 'bit of a jolly' is telling. WTF is wrong with taking my wife and child out for a picnic at Burbage? 3 miles by car. There seems to be an idea that we must sit at home wringing our hands because people are dying. We are in this for the long haul and strategies need to reflect the impact on mental and physical health. The nation will be in much better shape if we dont continue this knee-jerk jumping on people travelling short distances to enjoy long periods of time out of doors. Have forwarded to Derbys Police also.
We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.
The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.
Rinse and repeat.
TL:dr; infection rates fall to almost zero in open spaces. High infection rates indoors. So better to be out of doors as much as possible. obviously avoiding touching gates etc. Zero scientific basis for police closing burbage bridge etc.
Agree but the problem is where do you draw the line? A 3 mile jaunt with your family might be fine. Can I drive 4,5,6,10 or 20 miles to get to an open space? Can I Mountain Bike when I get there? Can I climb? Can I drive 200 miles across the Country to walk up Snowdon stopping at Motorway services en route? etc.
It would be easy to say 'exercise is permitted outdoors but apply some common sense' because if we've seen one thing over the last week or two it's that common sense is sadly lacking in a percentage of the population.
We’ll be locked down now, as long as it takes to slow the growth to a manageable rate. Then they’ll ease restrictions until the growth begins to take off again. Manageable growth, will be different in phase 2. Better preparations will have been made. More infected coped with.
The lockdown will return if growth exceeds capability again.
Rinse and repeat.
I don't think we will tbh. I think we'll lock down once, maybe twice, then then prevailing mindset will become, "well we had a go," and appetite for further lockdowns will disappear. Not saying that's good, or effective, or prudent, it's just my Trump-esque gut feeling for where this is headed.
China and Korea are not seeing huge second waves. We need to wait and see in the UK but the main lockdown might still be enough, if we come out of this with a ready and vigilant health system.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/
Japan and Hong Kong will be worth watching as they exoect an upturn
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096478/japan-confirmed-cases-of-coronavirus-by-state-of-health/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/
Stabbsy, I'm confused by your post - you talk about not going shopping due to self isolation but you went out running part way through? Maybe this is a semantics thing but I view self isolation as literally not leaving your property for the relevant period.
I'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up, since that comes down to personal priorities. that may be v important to them but others may not have grandkids/parents or may simply care more about picnics and climbing than seeing family
Well...
You took from that, what you wanted to take from that.
While we are at it, we need to stop wasting resources on pointless measures such as closing remote parks and natural reserves, where few people come close to one another anyway. ...
These closed environments represent the sort of scenario we need to target—not British couples out on a jaunt to Sugar Loaf, Pen-y-Fan and other rustic destinations.
I've self imposed a 2km radius around the house for my runs and I feel much better about it.
I'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up
China and Korea are not seeing huge second waves. We need to wait and see in the UK but the main lockdown might still be enough, if we come out of this with a ready and vigilant health system.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/
Japan and Hong Kong will be worth watching as they exoect an upturn
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096478/japan-confirmed-cases-of-coronavirus-by-state-of-health/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china-hong-kong-sar/
It’s way too early. Even the Chinese haven’t fully lifted restrictions. Not to mention, they managed to restrict it to a regional outbreak.
In a few months, when this is established in third world countries (and probably the US), with a massive reservoir of potential reinfection?
Like I said, we’ll find out.
But, way too premature on that call Offwidth.
Don’t get me wrong, I hope for the best. My biggest take away from events so far? Limitations of modelling and capacity for the chaotic nature of real life to confound the most logical, most sensible or even most probable arguments.
Stabbsy - interesting, hadn't clocked you were allowed out to exercise when in self-isolation, cheers for the linkMy wife’s a GP and was keen we followed guidance to the letter - it would pretty hypocritical if she was advising patients one thing and doing something else. I think the exercise wording has changed slightly since everyone else got put into lockdown, but the message is the same.
Yep, I've limited myself to the Porter valley. But it is BUSY because everyone else is doing the same, and there are limited narrow paths with gates and stiles etc. Whereas I know lots of places within a ten minute drive that do not approach any remote communities and would be deserted even on a bank holiday. And the government and BBC have repeatedly stated it would be fine for me to do so. I'm afraid I'm never going to agree that the police targeting dog walkers at Curbar was the best use of their time right now.
It's a real shame last weekend coincided with the first well-forecast high pressure spell of the spring. If it had been as normal I think we could have had slower transition with a more sensible result.
Yeh, I get what you were saying and I totally agree. The first course of action for these sites (and any non-essential business) should be to shut down as soon as practical. Then only re-open once they've carried out a new risk assessment and can prove they'd be able to comply. Which most wouldn't. But unfortunately a lot have attempted to hide behind the mixed messages from the government and continue with business as usual for as long as they can get away with it.
QuoteWell...
You took from that, what you wanted to take from that.
To be fair he did hand it to me on a plate:QuoteWhile we are at it, we need to stop wasting resources on pointless measures such as closing remote parks and natural reserves, where few people come close to one another anyway. ...
These closed environments represent the sort of scenario we need to target—not British couples out on a jaunt to Sugar Loaf, Pen-y-Fan and other rustic destinations.
QuoteI've self imposed a 2km radius around the house for my runs and I feel much better about it.
Yep, I've limited myself to the Porter valley. But it is BUSY because everyone else is doing the same, and there are limited narrow paths with gates and stiles etc.
Whereas I know lots of places within a ten minute drive that do not approach any remote communities and would be deserted even on a bank holiday. And the government and BBC have repeatedly stated it would be fine for me to do so.
QuoteI'm also not sold on the argument that grandparents not seeing their grandkids is somehow more/less important than other things currently being given up
Agreed, we're having regular video chats which is actually more contact then we have normally.
Call my cynical but I think it's revealing the true colours of many Contractors (and perhaps those in the wider construction industry e.g. Clients are also unwilling to say 'stop').
Almost everyone (in the water industry at least) has a tagline along the lines of "nobody comes to work to get hurt", "we're safe AF", but I think we're now finding out which of those actually believe it (morally) and those that say it (to get work). The latter seem to take risks where they can.
I think the biggest issue is other people seeing you doing whatever it is you're doing be it bouldering/leading or hanggliding; and thinking 'fuck it' and doing whatever it is they like doing. This spreads, like coronavirus, into more and more people thinking fuck it and doing what they like doing.
The point being, don't do anything other than stay at home or walk around locally; or if your little bouldering crag is within a local walk and is low risk and nobody goes there, then don't be seen by anyone..
I would suggest unless you can walk, run or cycle up a particular route or problem it is not only counter to the spirit of the government’s position, but also the letter of it.
I witnessed a woman come out of her house to scream at a couple for the perceived crime of nothing more than sitting on a bench.
Btw, I'm not saying that I'm going to this place, just wondering aloud.
Thing is Will, lots of things are clearly allowed by the guidance, but don’t follow the spirit of the guidance. Which is to stay inside as much as possible.
It’s quite scary how a little bit of non compliance, or a bit of extra travelling can spoil everyone’s efforts to control the outbreak.
This vid shows some neat examples with a (very) toy model.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=gxAaO2rsdIs
Well, yeah I've certainly always thought it since this came about. Just checking! As you were..
I've seen loads of videos of the police dispersing crowds with canes in India. No one seems to care though
I've seen loads of videos of the police dispersing crowds with canes in India. No one seems to care though
Do you mean:
A) Indians don’t care about other Indians being dispersed by cane wielding coppers?
B) Indians don’t care about the lockdown?
C) No one cares about you watching videos about cane wielding coppers dispersing Indians?
Sorry.
So how exactly is creating bottlenecks of human beings in local parks within Manchester and Sheffield, who would otherwise be going to the Peak, going to reduce transmission rates? A real head scratcher, if I do say so myself :-\
Maybe the assailant was a member of UKBenches.com, a forum for bench-sitting enthusiasts which had recently come to a consensus that sitting on benches is off the cards for now? The victims could be bench fans who were new to the scene and hadn't checked UKBenches to see what they could and couldn't do?
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.) :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.) :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer
Hi Pete.
You could draw those conclusions from watching the vid. It honestly never occurred to me that someone would take the “model” that seriously. The density of people, the speed at which they move, the distance they travel and the radius of infection in those vids are all totally arbitrary.
However it does illustrate some important points about how sensitive the outcomes are to what the exact transmission rate is, and how our small uncertainty as to its true value leads to a massive range of outcomes.
There are full powered epidemiology models you can download and run fairly easily (https://github.com/ryansmcgee/seirsplus) as well as online calculators for fairly decent models you can play with online (http://gabgoh.github.io/COVID/index.html) The only conclusion I can come to is that, for a plausible range of model inputs, this could last weeks to many months and lead to 20-100k fatalities. Which is a pretty big uncertainty.
When COVID-19 was first declared a pandemic 16 days ago, the traditional models were useful in warning us what would happen if (literally) nothing were done to stop it. But scarcely two weeks later, we are (thankfully) a long way from nothing. Let’s go after this disease in the way that does the most good, and stop policing the paths to Pen-y-Fan.
That quillette article is awful.
That quillette article is awful.
On a broader a point, is there ever anything good off their site? The people I’ve seen posting their articles before are those that think Jordan Peterson has some good ideas, so I’d sort of written of the whole thing as being toward the Alex Jones end of usefulness.
As Matt said the point is it’s not over in China. They will have to continue to identify and isolate carriers until a vaccine comes along or they’ll have another outbreak. Consensus in the UK is is too late for that sort of containment anyway.
Interesting perspective on Quillette Stu, happy to admit I knew nothing about the site and thought it looked credible.
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.) :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer
It is the forth time I have watched this movie.
The first was when some Italian students of mine were doing some sentiment analysis from the early days of the outbreak in Lombardy. It was fucking terrifying to learn how relaxed everyone was in Italy since we knew from Wuhan how horrible it was going to turn out.
The second was when France and Spain saw what happened in Italy and did not act swiftly.
The third was when United Kingdom and United States thought they were going to be spared somehow, for very unclear reasons. With the added worry for my father in law who lives in New York who's new wife is on one of those barbarian zero-hour contracts.
The forth is watching Sweden's unbelievably flat response to the treat, knowing full well that my parents could well be infected any day now.
The film has ended in tears the first three times. But I'm sure Sweden will be spared, because...
A bit confusing how different countries takes different stands in this matter and how much wievs of the virus differ.
Im Swedish, we do not have much regulations. More of: stay at home if your feeling ill; do not visit your elders, keep distance and wash your hands.
I was out at a normally quiet boulderingspot today and it was crowded. (Since no one wants to be crowded inside a gym.) :lol:
Dont know whats the right way but guess we will find out.
/Christer
It is the forth time I have watched this movie.
The first was when some Italian students of mine were doing some sentiment analysis from the early days of the outbreak in Lombardy. It was fucking terrifying to learn how relaxed everyone was in Italy since we knew from Wuhan how horrible it was going to turn out.
The second was when France and Spain saw what happened in Italy and did not act swiftly.
The third was when United Kingdom and United States thought they were going to be spared somehow, for very unclear reasons. With the added worry for my father in law who lives in New York who's new wife is on one of those barbarian zero-hour contracts.
The forth is watching Sweden's unbelievably flat response to the treat, knowing full well that my parents could well be infected any day now.
The film has ended in tears the first three times. But I'm sure Sweden will be spared, because...
Sweden certainly seems to be enjoying some powerful magical thinking.
Sorry about the threat to your parents Jonas.
Surely, Scandinavia (except Denmark) is much better placed to resist pandemics, than Western Europe.
JWI, are the graphs you're publishing daily on FB publicly available anywhere?no. Can't been bothered.
JWI, are the graphs you're publishing daily on FB publicly available anywhere?no. Can't been bothered.
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?
Andy, they publish similar charts in the FT daily. And there’s this site amongst others who plot that kind of data.
https://covid19dashboards.com/
The platform is a fairly recent start-up and in my opinion has made one or two questionable hires (Toby Young as UK editor, for example)
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?
China:
Communist dictatorship.
They can disappear journalists who publish stories that go too far against the party line.
Martial law, enforced with little compassion.
Obedient citizens.
Huge police and military per capita.
Censored media.
Large sparsely-populated areas between population centres, meaning containment more feasible.
Aggressive surveillance of population by state.
Grid-pattern (soulless) cities?? easy to monitor??
UK:
None of the above.
Can anyone explain why China with a population of over 1 billion had 3000ish deaths yet 20k would be seen as a ‘result’ here?
If this had been data collected by students I would probably fail them for making up data. I would at the very least interrogate them individually, and mark them down severly.
Saw pictures of a completely bone dry and mint Kilnsey on FB. Talk about cruel....
Just so. This is what data from an experiment in physics or chemistry looks like.... not in medicine.
It is very difficult to imagine a scenario giving such perfect fit to a simple logistic function.
The data collected from countries with free press and more transparent institutions is a lot more noisy.
It is clear to me that there has to be some form of smoothing, for instance by averaging, to achieve such close fit to the theoretical curve. In absence of convincing explanation to the noise free behaviour of the graphs I will continue to ignore Chinese data.
Just so. This is what data from an experiment in physics or chemistry looks like.... not in medicine.
It is very difficult to imagine a scenario giving such perfect fit to a simple logistic function.
The data collected from countries with free press and more transparent institutions is a lot more noisy.
It is clear to me that there has to be some form of smoothing, for instance by averaging, to achieve such close fit to the theoretical curve. In absence of convincing explanation to the noise free behaviour of the graphs I will continue to ignore Chinese data.
Sounds like a case for Benford's Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law)
Likewise. Its best not to think about it...
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
For one short session until your finger tips hurt so much or have fallen to bits.
Take a week off, repeat.
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.:lol:
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
Not climbing but official police guidance in Devon and Cornwall is classing surging as daily exercise.7 miles to Saunton Sands my nearest beach.
No driving to get there but If you can walk to the surf you can surf.
No different to climbing in my eyes.
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.:lol:
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.
Not climbing but official police guidance in Devon and Cornwall is classing surging as daily exercise.
No driving to get there but If you can walk to the surf you can surf.
No different to climbing in my eyes.
2 mins walk to the beach for me, not a great beach but something at least.
Unlike a lot on here I am trying to operate as per what I am told and not what I feel is right so if they say I can surf I will be.
2 mins walk to the beach for me, not a great beach but something at least.
Unlike a lot on here I am trying to operate as per what I am told and not what I feel is right so if they say I can surf I will be.
Doesn't this translate as: Despite knowing that clearly the government and police cannot give guidance for every single niche activity, I intend to take advantage of this omission, despite the fact that I know its probably not a good idea?
Doing what one feels is right is surely more important than the absolute letter of the law?
On a separate note, very jealous of your proximity to the coast!
Despite knowing that clearly the government and police cannot give guidance for every single niche activity,
And the Supreme court judge accusing Derbyshire police
Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.:lol:
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.
Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.
6.1 What support will be available to parents to help them educate their children at home?
More information will follow about what DfE is doing to support parents. We are working with the BBC and others to provide resources for children to access while at home.
If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?
It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.
:lol: It's no different now.Well now that the whole climbing community are on Matt Smythe training regimes, I think that everyone should set their return to climbing sights a little higher.:lol:
Gonna be climbing like beasts once allowed back on the crags with our hair tied back in pony tails...
From my recollection Smythe was singularly shit on the couple of occasions I saw him emerge from the cellar to test how his training was progressing. He'd then promptly attribute his performance to insufficient/incorrect training and retreat back underground.
Someone once told me that when he unleashed himself on the crags after his intensive systems training, he was spotted sitting on a rope on Bad, Bad Boy complaining the holds were too big.
I don't know if it's different now, but there were quite a lot of people in Sheffield in the 90s who didn't really deliver on their training.
Not the case. The Police in Cornwall were asked specifically about surfing and said they had no issue as long as you weren't driving there.
The crux of the issue seems to not be the exercise, length or location, but whether it is acceptable to drive a short distance.
If Gav really feels he can surf safely and can walk there from his house, I think it's overly harsh to tell him to look out his window at the waves. The only risk is of him calling out the emergency services and we should trust people's judgement here a little perhaps?
It's a slightly different situation to climbing where I could climb at an empty venue 5 mins from my house, smother the holds in virus and infect the next poor bugger to turn up after I leave.
Yep I agree re: personal responsibility; I was more questioning the idea of not doing what one felt was right despite it being technically allowed.
Come on then, who's going to post the links to the two guardian articles, yesterday and today, about the police being accused of overreaching their powers... And the Supreme court judge accusing Derbyshire police of shaming British policing tradition etc. etc.
People starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester."
It's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law.
Within a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name.
I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local.
I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop? I know which I would prioritise, ymmv. I'd also like reiterate I'm not so much thinking of myself as those stuck in flats in city centres.QuotePeople starting to take liberties with the "why can't I take a walk in the Peak" will swiftly become "why can't I drive to the peak from Leicester" and eventually "I'm driving to Yorkshire from Leicester."
I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local. If police want to waste our/their time patrolling Burbage they could use some discretion with distance.QuoteIt's currently working precisely because people are going slightly beyond the letter of the law.
No, we're in that position because of a lack of information. The regs only came out a few days ago, and to think the words haven't been considered very carefully is naive.QuoteWithin a few weeks the lockdown would cease to exist in all but name.
No. We're in this for the long haul, we need to concentrate on measures that most effectively slow the spread while taking the least restrictive approach. I am hoping the Police overreaction on Curbar etc was to dissuade people travelling from afar and now that has ceased and proper regs are in place they will let locals get on with harmless healthy activities.
I don't agree, it's very easy to put out a message to stay local.
Fair enough, but I just don't think 'local' will cut it.
This is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpar
Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?
Can I walk to my local shithole, which nobody ever bothers with, less than a mile from my house, and do some non-highball bouldering?
Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.
Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park! And again, it's less busy than the likes of Endcliffe park, on which similar pressure would be eased.
Very easy so issue sensible guidelines of ten minutes drive or similar.
You think people on the east side of Sheffield wouldn't drive to the Peak with that guideline in place?
QuoteThis is RSPB Dove Stone, after the lockdown, and after they'd closed the carpar
Umm, again I don't agree. Do you know Uppermill etc at all? The majority of those people will be local and it looks busy because they've closed the bloody car park!
Gav - can I ask where its come from thats its fine to go surfing? A quick look on Devon and Cornwall police website and in the coranavirus q and a there is the question can I go surfing. It says no, please dont go surfing per the advice of surfing England.
I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
My point is, and has always been, that trying to suggest that no-one drives out to the countryside is the only way to stop everyone from doing so. I know you think otherwise, but (with respect), you are definitely putting too much faith in people. Two weekends ago, the government advice was not to go out if you didn't absolutely have to. And yet the national parks were rammed with people having a jolly in the Sun.
I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?
If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?
As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say
Everyone posting on here should probably required to post a google pin so we can check out the size of their house and garden, proximity to green space etc. And declare any additional factors like kids, garage boards etc!
Adam, I do think that if you lived a few minutes drive further,
If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the pissThe sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.
As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say
In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-members who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.
Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.
A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.This really is the key as far as I can tell, people saying we can't do what China has, what about S Korea? Similar pop to large European nations, half the area, democratic and still have very successfully contained the outbreak. The lack of test and trace early is a scandal that must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet.
And Germany....Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.This really is the key as far as I can tell, people saying we can't do what China has, what about S Korea? Similar pop to large European nations, half the area, democratic and still have very successfully contained the outbreak. The lack of test and trace early is a scandal that must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet.
QuoteI guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?
Increasing correlation appearing here between indoor aerocap enthusiasts endorsing tighter controls. It's a pretty big deal! Already had a meltdown this am from JB Junior not wanting to go to the park AGAIN!
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.
Agree with JWI, tighter controls should be testing and isolation not stopping exercise and fresh air. I'm don't see that running down the nation's health will be of net benefit.
If you feel that it is nesessary that you do that Will its probably best that you do. There will always be special cases and I hope you have fun. Personally though as Liam has said please dont spray about it on here as it will encourage others and awful as it is now I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the pissThe sarcastic tone tells me that your post is really just trying to shame and proves my point about this being more an exercise in self-punishment. Why not actually look at what the government's guidance/legislation is? You can go out to exercise if you are staying local and not driving! This is not taking the piss, it is complying with the rules.
Easy Will - that seems a fair enough thing to say to me...
As I alluded a few pages back, Chinese experts think that the lock-down in Italy is and has been too lax.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-home-quarantine-repeats-mistake-made-in-china-doctors-say
In short, people should not self-isolate with their families, but rather at isolation centers. People with covid-19 almost surely give the virus to their family-members who are often asymptomatic and happily goes to the supermarket and infect tons of others.
Lots of people with symptoms also finds it very inconvenient to stay at home, so they do not. They walk the dog, go shopping etc daily.
A stricter lock-down means to isolate everyone with symptoms.
I did read the article earlier and thought it an interesting point. So should everyone with symptoms have to go to a designated hotel and live together? For how long? An what if you are asymptomatic, but give it to your kids who then show symptoms? Is it a guess as to which parent transferred it? I see the argument, but I think it would be very hard to implement .
I really dread a tighter lockdown if too many people take the piss
What would be different in your life about now vs a tighter lockdown? I guess you'd lose the ability to go for a walk/run, but that's the only difference right?
Gav that surf page is intersting and its clear lots of sports are having a similar debate. On the same page is says "the message is clear dont go surfing'. They are also clear that the message is stay safe, stay homes and save lives. im sure its an evolving situation so we shall see where it goes. To be clear I dont want tigher restrictions and do want to climb asap
The thing I would worry about most is the impact on law and policing and individually on the most vulnerable who are frightened. If nearly all people follow the rules, it won't be needed.
Climbers and hillwalkers should think about how their outdoor interests might be viewed by the public and police. Unlike Will I think the BMC have acted almost perfectly on this... any pushing back in the lockdown could have been damaging public and political opinion, that we might well need when this is all over. People should read Elfyn's plea again last Sunday evening, and the wide scope on which it was based. The BMC is still running but from individual homes of staff and volunteers. If you care about things like the future of access, given the inevitable financial pressures on the organisation, there has never been a better time for non-members to join.
New advice for shark on the oak. Drive faster.
The guidance says you can leave the house for one form of exercise a day. Gove on the Marr show on Sunday suggested people use common sense - he suggested a run for 30 min or a cycle ride of up to an hour
Unlike Will I think the BMC have acted almost perfectly on this... any pushing back in the lockdown could have been damaging public and political opinion, that we might well need when this is all over.
I dont intend to go climbing but probably would go for a surf if it got reasonably good.
Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back
Those people can feel free to report me to the Police because when I went for my run last week I actually stopped to do some stretching and I also walked some of the way.
I assume everyone who thinks it isn't acceptable to drive to exercise is also not driving to the supermarket and making do with what they can get from walking to their local shop?
I'm starting to feel really glad there are no crags and I don't have a car. This would be making my brain hurt.
I'm starting to feel really glad there are no crags and I don't have a car. This would be making my brain hurt.
Yeah. Despite being 15-20 min drive from rock I’ve basically cut the idea from my mind. Ain’t gonna happen for months. Climbing kit is now in the cellar. Mats all put away etc... the best way for me to mentally partition it. Though tbh it’s a disappointment but there are bigger things to be concerned about at the moment!
Obvious also, was to add in some bumf about the importance of being seen by others (inc. politicians) as a responsible group of people because it has potential to impact future access (as does every time we go into the outdoors on other people's land).
The most basic of local climber's access groups, organised around a bunch of enthusiasts on whatsapp, could have come up with the same thought process and message.
For reference, it’s 15-20 mins walk to Anstey’s from my house.
For reference, it’s 15-20 mins walk to Anstey’s from my house.
My brain has just melted trying to comprehend exactly how insanely amazing that must be...
Off topic.
OMM - roundup works a treat on Blackthorn. Doesn’t touch many weed/shrubs/trees (eg gorse) but nails Blackthorn with a normal dose.
So Mrs T_B has just driven 20 mins out to the Peak to a food wholesaler, so that she can reduce the number of journeys to local supermarkets.
Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back
OMM - roundup works a treat on Blackthorn. Doesn’t touch many weed/shrubs/trees (eg gorse) but nails Blackthorn with a normal dose.
So Mrs T_B has just driven 20 mins out to the Peak to a food wholesaler, so that she can reduce the number of journeys to local supermarkets.
Should she have gone for a stroll along Curbar on her way back
Wow, this just goes to show what completely different pages people are on. I wouldn't dream of driving 20 mins from Sheffield to shop in a different community.
New advice for shark on the oak. Drive faster.
As we hurtled along country lanes in Simon Lee's over-powered BMW estate-car-of-death I was feeling very excited, and not a little bit nervous.
Coick and collect...
I'm normally a BMC cheerleader but I feel badly let down on this occasion. The message 'the hills are closed' seems to be completely the wrong one. It should be get outside, stay healthy, but whatever you do stay local and maintain distancing.
I'm normally a BMC cheerleader but I feel badly let down on this occasion. The message 'the hills are closed' seems to be completely the wrong one. It should be get outside, stay healthy, but whatever you do stay local and maintain distancing.
... and a decent sized park within a half mile walk. I've no idea how a family of four in a two bed flat on the seventh floor of an city centre apartment block are coping.
“Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise“
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/uk-police-reissued-with-guidance-on-enforcing-coronavirus-lockdown
“Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise“
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/uk-police-reissued-with-guidance-on-enforcing-coronavirus-lockdown
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
No more so than when it rains endlessly for a month or I go on holiday for 3 weeks :shrug:
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
Mark, kac, that is the government guidance that hasn't changed since the beginning of the shutdown (or at least from very soon after the shutdown. I think Johnson's address talked about not going to work unless you were critical, which was almost immediately [he misspoke?] relaxed). What I'm after is the police's updated guidance on how to enforce the government's legislation and guidance.
So Will, you seem to be basically pointing out (several times) that the government guidelines could (if within interpretation of reasonable) allow someone to go climbing. Why? (Do you keep pointing it out?)
Nearly everyone in here and the BMC etc.. is saying don’t whatsoever.
I’m not trying to wind you up - just don’t get why you keep posting this? 🤷♂️
So Will, you seem to be basically pointing out (several times) that the government guidelines could (if within interpretation of reasonable) allow someone to go climbing. Why? (Do you keep pointing it out?)
Nearly everyone in here and the BMC etc.. is saying don’t whatsoever.
I’m not trying to wind you up - just don’t get why you keep posting this? 🤷♂️
I guess because he feels like he is being shamed/guilted/disapproved of for considering a course of action within the law, police guidelines, and government guidelines. (I'm not saying people meant to, but can see why he might feel like that) FWIW I can't see the issue with walking to obscure safe bouldering. I live within walking distance of Avon gorge, but wouldn't consider it for obvious reasons (didn't stop at least one pair a couple of days ago though)
If the crag was in your garden. Nobody would object.if
If the crag was in your garden. Nobody would object.if
I think you could still find people who'd object.
Also, see 'Garden, lawnmowers, risk of' (Lee et al, 2020)
You could frame this issue more generally:
Speeding is proven to be a contributory factor in %x of all RTAs
There are laws against speeding, but not laws against driving at too high a speed for the given conditions and circumstances, for e.g. a 50mph speed limit - even though allowed by law - may be too fast on a twisty country single-carriageway covered in leaves on a rainy dark night.
I sometimes speed.
People who know me probably realise that I sometimes speed.
Other people sometimes speed.
People they know probably realise that they sometimes speed.
Speeding is considered socially acceptable differently by different people, on an arbitrary scale that I just invented of '1' - 'completely unacceptable in all circumstances' to '10'- 'completely acceptable in all circumstances'.
For bouldering see 'speeding'.
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
Yup, drove my van to go shopping the other day to give it a run out after sitting on the drive for 10days. 5 miles in, flashing coil warning light. Probably EGR or injector gone..... only £800. Bollocks
That sucks.. Haven’t been anywhere in mine since the 11th March, don’t do a shop run because I am protecting my wife whom is ‘high risk’ (we get get stuff delivered). Started first time yesterday, just, battery definitely close to being drained. I have a charger so not too worried about that but probably could do with taking it for a spin. Maybe I can combine with some reasonable exercise, I can hit single trackers straight from home and get access to some different footpaths.Anyone considered the impact of having your car sat doing nothing for extended periods of time?
Yup, drove my van to go shopping the other day to give it a run out after sitting on the drive for 10days. 5 miles in, flashing coil warning light. Probably EGR or injector gone..... only £800. Bollocks
We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.
If that's all TL;DR, then the shortest answer to your question, TT, is that the legislation used the word "reasonable", which immediately triggers my natural instinct to try and pull those words to pieces and test what they really mean.
We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.
Amen.
Not suggesting people go to stanage. I have some very obscure rocks within near walking distance and it covers the almost zero risk part option.
Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.
Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.
Will im not sure what your hoping to achieve here but if your worried about being shamed for climbing why don't you just go climbing and keep quiet about it. I dont think the bmc or anyone is going to start surveilance on your house ready to shame you if you venture outside to one of your local boulders. Hopefully that sounds reasonable and we can all go climbing again soon.
Will im not sure what your hoping to achieve here but if your worried about being shamed for climbing why don't you just go climbing and keep quiet about it. I dont think the bmc or anyone is going to start surveilance on your house ready to shame you if you venture outside to one of your local boulders. Hopefully that sounds reasonable and we can all go climbing again soon.
Well, Tom asked so I answered.
On the subject of those big runs and rides, what is it that makes it wrong? To me it's the risk of having a mechanical or accident or injury far from home and having to call on someone to come out and help you. If you're running and going through stiles and gates then you're possibly aiding transmission beyond your community.
But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?
On the subject of those big runs and rides, what is it that makes it wrong?
Fifthly, and probably most importantly, out of support for and solidarity with both the vulnerable people in our society who might die of CV19, however unlikely it is they'd get it from me, and our NHS workers who are literally putting their lives on the line (and some have already paid with theirs) to help and serve us. They are asking us (and some on here have done so explicitly) to stay home, follow the advice, social distance, don't go climbing or do owt daft. Ignoring their pleas is a rather unbecoming middle digit to those who are making actual sacrifices at this time, not just staying away from the crags.
I haven't exercised beyond home since some time last week.
We are all allowed to go out to undertake reasonable exercise. We've had lots of examples on this thread of how climbing could be considered reasonable exercise - neither increasing the risk of infection or of becoming a burden on the NHS.
Amen.
Not suggesting people go to stanage. I have some very obscure rocks within near walking distance and it covers the almost zero risk part option.
Although I do acknowledge something was probably required to reduce traffic. It is hard to get the balance. It just grates on me that people can go for 20 mile runs, or massive rides and I cant go bouldering 5 mins from mine.
So walking to the boulders with a crash pad on, in my opinion, you are basically just putting two fingers up to the rest of society.
Long 20 mile runs and massive bike rides are not in the spirit of the guidance either. One could argue that both could be classed as "reasonable", as we are doing with bouldering, but in reality, they aren't.
Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.
Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.
I expect Broomgrove is probably the most dangerous place in the city right now.
Thats great will that you want to hear different opinions. You just dont seem very open minded in how you are receiving them. For example if someone offers an opinion that differs from yours you assume that is just because they can't get out.
Again not really different to those traversing brick edges in Sheffield city at the moment.
I expect Broomgrove is probably the most dangerous place in the city right now.
Are people actually doing this? Doesn't seem much different to what Will was asking about.
But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?
But I suspect that some (kac/Nick/TT?) would say that additionally we should all be sacrificing as much as we possibly can?
Me?
Well, up to the individual, of course. After all, very few people below the age of 60 and without underlying health conditions have died, right?
Well quite a few more than I think we were expecting. I mean 13 years old? 19?
Still, it’s like the lottery, nobody really wins that...
I mean the odds are better (not the right term) than the lottery, but still pretty remote, obviously.
Dig out.
Fill yer boots.
Just wash your hands and try not to breathe on your loved ones when you get home.
That said, we do seem to have got the the point where we've hit the bottom of the "why" barrel on most fronts.
I find it interesting to see different views on liberty/authority on this thread.
Well, up to the individual, of course. After all, very few people below the age of 60 and without underlying health conditions have died, right?
Well quite a few more than I think we were expecting. I mean 13 years old? 19?
Still, it’s like the lottery, nobody really wins that...
I mean the odds are better (not the right term) than the lottery, but still pretty remote, obviously.
Dig out.
Fill yer boots.
Just wash your hands and try not to breathe on your loved ones when you get home.
We all do things which have risk - loads of driving around to go climbing, DIY, drink, drugs... Unless you can give me some stats I'm currently relatively unafraid for myself, precisely because it's news that a 13 and 19 year old with no underlying conditions got killed by it (and no, stats of how many hospitalisations are in a certain age group are not v useful unless you know infection rates by age group).
To those giving Will shit for relentlessly asking "why do you think x", I have to say I'm sympathetic to Will on the general approach. When people disagree with me I either do the same, or call them a moron. That said, we do seem to have got the the point where we've hit the bottom of the "why" barrel on most fronts.
Matt -
1. No you weren't asking why, you were just rather flamboyantly trying to state your view.
2. I don't think you understood my post. My bracketed point was simply preempting someone posting a news article stating that a high % of those in hospital are young people; my point is that without knowing how many there are of each age group in the general population and how many in each age group are infected, that data isn't worth much
You, Alex, appear to be on the “it’s not worth it” side. That is you seem to suspect the economic damage of current measures out-weigh the benefits. Seem to.
Without trawling through Alex's posts, I'm pretty sure that isn't what he thinks. He was just trying to oppose what you'd implied, that any economic price was worth it to save even one life. We all know that that is not how risk management works in policy making.
I asked about the value of the data, full stop.
I for one am enjoying the different viewpoints on here so please do keep posting everyone. I dont think thes actually too much major disagreement, everyone is probably just grumpy being cooped up. I know i am.
I worry for you.
Agreed... the most sane place I visit on the internet
Seems to be an undercurrent of suspicion among certain people about the vaccine thing and social control measures. For e.g. I was walking home a couple of evenings ago and had crossed the street to get back to my house. A guy on the opposite side thought I was crossing the road to avoid him, and started chuckling and saying out loud stuff about 'scared of coronavirus' loud enough for me to hear him. I stopped and replied to him I wasn't avoiding him because of covid, but just because I needed to cross over to go into my house. There ensued a 10 minute conversation held across a road about how this is all a global scam and the governments will use the vaccine to insert digital monitors in us all. He also believed governments will use this event as an excuse to keep tougher social control measures in place indefinitely, using fear as justification.
None of which surprised me. I don't agree with him. Just wish I'd thought to say to him that just because he's paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get him.
Maybe I just need to check on my project, take the clips out etc...
Maybe I just need to check on my project, take the clips out etc...
It was a good enough one for one pro spanish climber!
And yet still people are arguing the toss in the comments :-\
As evidenced by most of those comments it is obviously still too early for most people to discuss this sensibly,
What's wrong with the comments? Count yourself lucky I didn't descend into a monologue about the futility of existence...
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20
Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20
Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??
Meanwhile on the Pex Facebook group adults are arguing about whether kids (with adult supervison) should be drawing in coloured chalk on the walls of Pex quarry...
It did remind me of that old adage of two bald men arguing over who gets the comb... 😃
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20
Surely if you are out climbing at the present time you wouldn't be so dumb as to publicly share it??
Maybe he couldn’t be bothered to run an Ultra in his back garden?
they view bouldering as illegal under the Public Health Act
...back again under a slightly updated moniker as the old one just would not work.
And yet still people are arguing the toss in the comments :-\
No they're not, it's just the same conversation(s) we've had on here, with a little existential despair thrown in on my part for good measure.
Good to see Chaz still out climbing... https://twitter.com/Charles80641832/status/1247992761242071040?s=20
:popcorn:
I despair. If those people are reading this, you're all selfish cunts
Hard to tell. Is he wearing trainers/approach shoes? And he's got his dog with him? So he took his dog for a walk, saw a little overhang and pottered up it?
:tumble:
When I’m out cycling I try to blow snot on every dog walker who has driven to out to walk their dog.
In the words of the Spanish Inquisition God will sort out the innocent.
I agree that posting a video is daft. But he probably hasn't seen UKB. If somebody doesn't look at climbing groups on social media they probably don't know which way the wind is blowing. For all I know he could have loaded up his Caddy with 5 pads and driven an hour to get there; or it could be a scruffy block a 10 minute walk from his house that he can monkey up in his walking shoes. On the Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!
On Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!
On the Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!
On Lancashire Rock Revival Facebook group they're sending photos of people climbing to the police!
What? Really? I didn't see that.
I'm uncomfortable with the amount of vitriol I've seen online.
I don't think hurling abuse at other climbers is helpful, either for the current situation (since when did calling people names achieve anything positive?) or long-term, when the web will retain a lasting record that climbers have painted themselves in a bad light.
There were 3 people bouldering at the tor yesterday, I think there justification is that they are living in there vans (there are 2) in the layby. The water baliff lives 3 doors down from me and is concerned about where there shitting
Which climbers were/are basking in that “bad light” do you think?
The name callers or the posters?
:devangel:
I know what I feel, rightly or wrongly:
Climber A/ Called someone a bad name.
Climber B/ Failed to exercise self control, for a few weeks, in national crisis and then posted it on social media to encourage others to do the same and/or invite criticism and ire.
With apologies if I'm being naive or coming across as insensitive, i think its very likely that most climbers living in vans in the UK (cant be that many anyway, its not a 'thing' here like in Europe or the US) have parents, friends or other family in the UK where they could at least park the van nearby, or on the drive. Thats what they should do.
Its an interesting point actually. I suppose it helps to reassure the online climbing community that they're doing the right thing by not climbing and should continue to do so?
spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.
Sharing on social media is stupid though, hence saying someone should have a quiet word, rather than posting publicly, which is always going to raise heckles.
I'm staying within guidelines, but keeping running private on Strava for now, i can forego the kudos.
I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.
I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.
What about those buying non-essential alcohol and easter eggs, AND going bouldering? They should burn in hell.
(no such thing as non-essential alcohol and chocolate btw)
Its an interesting point actually. I suppose it helps to reassure the online climbing community that they're doing the right thing by not climbing and should continue to do so?
I suspect it's mostly just because people like to be angry on the internet, especially when bored/angry in real life. Half of the people getting outraged by someone climbing some lowball choss in the middle of nowhere whilst out for a walk will have just been for an hour long run, or will have spent an extra 10 min in the supermarket because they wanted to buy some alcohol and easter eggs... despite the fact that neither are essential.
I got easter eggs delivered with my shopping. Should I cover myself in hammer and sickle stickers and feed myself to daily mail readers in penance? Confusing times.
Probably why it doesn’t seem that bad if you’ve got kids :lol:.
Re going out cycling. If a fit road cyclist can smash out 50+ km in 2 hours, I can't see anything wrong in that. I'm going road cycling at the moment although not that far as I'm definitely not fit! I doubt I'm within 5m of anyone who isn't an inconsiderate driver passing too close. It's safe as there are hardly any cars on the road, and my front door and bike handlebars are the only thing I touch with gloved hands.
I think that remaining clearly within the spirit of the guidelines is the way to go. I could walk to a crag in about an hour, but I'd see that as taking the piss, and am not doing that, any more than I'd go to the park for a picnic.
Are people with the virus likely to be running / cycling? Genuine question btw, I have zero medical knowledge.Yes. There are a large number who are either asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic.
What about those buying non-essential alcohol and easter eggs, AND going bouldering? They should burn in hell.
It's safe as there are hardly any cars on the road
Grief for loss of your previous life, loss of control, no longer being able to do the things you enjoy etc.
Re going out cycling. If a fit road cyclist can smash out 50+ km in 2 hours, I can't see anything wrong in that.
But I do think that it’s actually amazing and heartening how many people are behaving responsibly, despite how grim it is. Focusing on the one or two people who may not be winds everyone up on both sides.
But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km?
But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km?
You know it’s possible to ride 50 km without being further than a few km from your home if you want to right?
I'm surprised that that seems OK when compared with some of the things that you're saying aren't OK.
You know it’s possible to ride 50 km without being further than a few km from your home if you want to right?
You could do it in your 2m long back yard even.
Might be hard to maintain the 25km/hr average that Toby was talking about then!
p.p.s. I hope you fall off and get your brush stuck up your bum Pete.
Apparently it's not just idle folk on ukb discussing what is/isn't ok, even the police still have to tell their own officers off (for telling people not to use their gardens)
https://twitter.com/grandad1975/status/1248247686563631104
But 50km? Max distance from home of 25km? Is anyone really going to be able to walk that home? I'm surprised that that seems OK when compared with some of the things that you're saying aren't OK.
Just on a pragmatic point - people riding roadbikes could easily zip-tie a pair of lightweight fell-running shoes or approach shoes to their frames to allow walking home if necessary. Or carry in a light pack.
Just on a pragmatic point - people riding roadbikes could easily zip-tie a pair of lightweight fell-running shoes or approach shoes to their frames to allow walking home if necessary. Or carry in a light pack.
Fine unless you spannered your bike going downhill too fast, falling off and busting a collarbone. I think cycling well within your limits must be another factor to include. Those Strava segments will always be there..
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive...
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)
Regards that Belgian report on aerosol transmission, surely most sensible people already knew that this virus is transmitted by aerosol though? So really, despite the restrictions saying running/cycling are OK, many people who are going running/cycling (especially in populated areas) probably knew at an institute level somewhere in the recesses of their minds that those activities which involve heavily exhaling will carry a risk of transmission above that of gentle walking. Don’t know what point I’m making - maybe that people know they’re doing something that isn’t ideal but if the regulations say it’s OK then that’s all the justification they need.
Apparently it's not just idle folk on ukb discussing what is/isn't ok, even the police still have to tell their own officers off (for telling people not to use their gardens)
https://twitter.com/grandad1975/status/1248247686563631104
Christ that's grim. The grimness of stupidity. Like I say, sucks right now to live in a city or densely-populated area with nannies like that around. On the other hand I bet her job sucks right now too, having to deal with bozos like that who appear to enjoy arguing the toss like a stroppy teenager.
I guess it would be a different conversation if the government had said ‘one form of exercise a day, walking, running or lowball bouldering’.
Regards that Belgian report on aerosol transmission, surely most sensible people already knew that this virus is transmitted by aerosol though? So really, despite the restrictions saying running/cycling are OK, many people who are going running/cycling (especially in populated areas) probably knew at an institute level somewhere in the recesses of their minds that those activities which involve heavily exhaling will carry a risk of transmission above that of gentle walking. Don’t know what point I’m making - maybe that people know they’re doing something that isn’t ideal but if the regulations say it’s OK then that’s all the justification they need.
The double standards being applied to cycling and climbing are quite impressive... Not being critical. Just pointing out the difference in perception seems strange.. (I agree largely with Duma.)
Yup.
Though to me, it’s not distance per-se, it’s inter community travel. You could manage 50k and never be more than 2 from your home. Or, for me, I could go from home to Teignmouth and back, via several small villages and Newton Abbot, so if I was a reeeally good shedder; I could expose a good 200k of population...
If, and it’s a big if, it’s that easily spread by aerosol.
Caveat: I doubt it, but you get the point, right?
Somewhere there's a road biking forum where they've all agreed that they should stick to the turbo for biking but that a spot of lowball bouldering is probably fine...
Somewhere there's a road biking forum where they've all agreed that they should stick to the turbo for biking but that a spot of lowball bouldering is probably fine...
Using the cycling - bouldering comparison, I’m guessing cycling clubs are not going out in peletons at the moment - the equivalent of some mates bouldering together...
Maybe that’s what’s been occupying Priti Patel for the last 3 weeks...
The full-time racer living out the pocket of Mum and Dad is a pretty big thing in cycling - lots treating it as their ‘job’ they get paid a few fuckalls for. They couldn’t do that from home.
Plenty of these in the (competition) climbing world, but most seem to have their own wall to train on at home.
It's interesting that the "full time climber" has gone from dirtbags, drugs and danger where making money from it is seen as selling out, to the sanitized world of competitions where despite not making money you describe yourself as professional.
However, as somebody who dabbles in both, I think that road cycling - .as long as you're cycling by yourself, have backup from somebody who lives at the same address and can pick you up in the event of a complete mechanical, use quiet roads, don't stop in small Peak district villages to buy cake etc - I.e. act sensibly - then this is still a viable form of exercise in the current lock-down.
the risk of clattering yourself is still much higher than other activities
Just sayin like...
I would dispute the 'much higher than other activities' bit. As long as you're sensiblegoing downhillhow high you climb and don't do anything silly, the risk can be minimised. With the vastly reduced amount ofmotorised traffic on the roadpeople at the (carefully selected obscure and local) crag, I think the main cause of risk has been significantly taken away.
Any activity has some element of risk - and hence possible burden on the Accident and Emergency services. I can't say for certain that I won't have an accident on myroad bikelowball traverse but I would hope that it is unlikely.
The Canal and RiversTrust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.
But - what bonjoy points out above... 👆
However, the key point that Stu makes above is how you get there.
But it's ok for a minister to drive 40miles to drop groceries off at his parents, even though their neighbours were already doing that? :-\
The Canal and RiversTrust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.
There's an article here from July 2019:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/fishing/related-articles/the-fisheries-and-angling-team/reporting-people-taking-fish-away-from-canals-and-stillwaters
for people who enjoy it it's a very mindful, meditative pastime
Many many people out there (not necessarily UKB members), of all classes and demographics, who seem to think that the only way to avoid being an "utter fucking wankstain" is to stay at home and be as miserable as possible, preferably while scouring social media for people to have a go at for committing the sin of having fun.
The Canal and RiversTrust are asking people to report anyone fishing on canals to the police and the Environment Agency.
Just lock everyone the fuck down, get it over with quicker, and let's stop pretending that running is somehow more valid or less dangerous than sunbathing.
Many many people out there (not necessarily UKB members), of all classes and demographics, who seem to think that the only way to avoid being an "utter fucking wankstain" is to stay at home and be as miserable as possible, preferably while scouring social media for people to have a go at for committing the sin of having fun.
They're all probably anti bolts as well. Wankers. (Except JB)
Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.
So it is very galling when cyclist come on a climbing forum and outline the sketchy justification for them treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza.
To be clearer. If we could all go bouldering without travelling to do so, and if we could be confident of being the only people at the crag, I’d be pretty happy about everyone climbing. I reckon the minor transmission risk of other people using the holds before would easily be handled with hand wipes.
The problem is that isn’t possible. Both the IFs in the paragraph fail if any number of us head out.
The same simply isn’t true of road cyclists, they can stay well isolated and don’t need to travel to bike. More power to them I say, though I can understand it sticking in people’s throats that someone else gets to do their hobby and we don’t.
Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)
treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanzaI don't think (or would hope) that anybody is treating this as a cycling bonanza Jon. Rather, just thankful that there is a way of getting out of the house for an hour or so to get some fresh air.
Quotetreating the lockdown as a cycling bonanzaI don't think (or would hope) that anybody is treating this as a cycling bonanza
Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)
The wider climbing population is irrelevant if you have the circumstances Stu mentions. What someone in Manchester thinks is irrelevant to what someone in Wales thinks about the crag just down the road that no one uses.
We can all get pretty angry and jealous understandably, if we can't do what we love doing and others seem to be managing to have a great time.I did 84.98 miles on my bike on Friday, I can’t say for the last 30 miles I was having a great time.
My opinion is that if anyone's genuinely having a great time at the moment, they are either in denial, or a psychopath.
I imagine most people will have developed their own coping strategies for enabling them to cope with a deeply stressful and horrible experience for more or less everyone in all seriously affected countries. Frankly I'm pretty jealous of people who are really into playstation or Xbox, or painting those figures for tabletop games. They are probably coping better!
Strawman. The effect would be much the same as half of Sheffield's cycling population going out in one big peleton. The people I had in mind live in various location's mostly other than Sheffield.
Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.
It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?
Arguments about relative risks of bouldering and cycling are this:
https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1249058146091401218?s=09[img (https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1249058146091401218?s=09[img)
Jon I don't disagree with what your saying but its a bit insensitive to associate the word nazi with those saying we should stay at home. Nothing else to add as Stu is basically summing up my thoughts.Fair enough, it was meant tongue in cheek and aimed at the more hysterical pitchfork wielding end of a general continuum I also place myself on. But you're right, a bad choice of phrase in retrospect.
I could have been clearer but I don't think I implied mutual exclusivity.So it is very galling when cyclist come on a climbing forum and outline the sketchy justification for them treating the lockdown as a cycling bonanza.
Because nobody could possibly partake in both?
The word 'bonanza' is also a stretch; it's a bonanza in the context that you're less likely to get squished by something made of metal weighing in at around 1000kg
I'm genuinely glad you're finding an enjoyable outlet Robin. Sorry about molesting your original post to make a point.Quotetreating the lockdown as a cycling bonanzaI don't think (or would hope) that anybody is treating this as a cycling bonanza Jon. Rather, just thankful that there is a way of getting out of the house for an hour or so to get some fresh air.
Jon I don't disagree with what your saying but its a bit insensitive to associate the word nazi with those saying we should stay at home. Nothing else to add as Stu is basically summing up my thoughts.Fair enough, it was meant tongue in cheek and aimed at the more hysterical pitchfork wielding end of a general continuum I also place myself on. But you're right, a bad choice of phrase in retrospect.
Pitchfork wielding (properly weighted) is a legitimate form of exercise, so you should be alright as long as you don’t drive to Stanage to partake.
Pitchfork wielding (properly weighted) is a legitimate form of exercise, so you should be alright as long as you don’t drive to Stanage to partake.
But if carried on a bike it might cross over into jousting non?
Strawman. The effect would be much the same as half of Sheffield's cycling population going out in one big peleton. The people I had in mind live in various location's mostly other than Sheffield.
Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.
It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?
Carbon fibre pitchfork handle with titanium spikes of course.
Carbon fibre pitchfork handle with titanium spikes of course.
Have you tried the aero-caps for the tip? I managed to save 2 watts when I added mine.
Start one then Will.
Yeah, that's a much better way to put it. Wish I was among this lucky minority.Strawman. The effect would be much the same as half of Sheffield's cycling population going out in one big peleton. The people I had in mind live in various location's mostly other than Sheffield.
Regards travel, lots of folk are within a short walk of a crag. If you're not then it's obviously climbing is not on.
It’s this bit that needs careful unpacking. Lots of people are within short walking distance of a crag, but what would be the effect on transmission if half of sheffield’s climbers rocked up at bell hagg?
Then I think you phrased it badly. A few climbers are lucky enough to be in that position. The overwhelming majority of climbers live in cities and are not. I don’t think we disagree, actually.
Start one then Will.
Isn’t that already what we are doing?
Yeah fair enough, just gets a bit annoying reading people saying climbing is irresponsible when really all they’re commenting on is their own specific circumstances in the peak or a.n.other populated English area that you’re unlucky enough to live in (tongue firmly in cheek). You’re not the be-all of climbing.
Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds. These are not intrinsic to the sport.
The solidarity argument is clearly bogus. In that case, nobody with a board or fingerboard or TRX or pull up bar or Powerball or anything should be using it because there are some who haven't got one.
People are happy to take in to account circumstances for running and cycling. Ie "just went for a run and barely saw a soul, but then I live on Unst".
To be clearer. If we could all go bouldering without travelling to do so, and if we could be confident of being the only people at the crag, I’d be pretty happy about everyone climbing. I reckon the minor transmission risk of other people using the holds before would easily be handled with hand wipes.
The problem is that isn’t possible. Both the IFs in the paragraph fail if any number of us head out.
The same simply isn’t true of road cyclists, they can stay well isolated and don’t need to travel to bike. More power to them I say, though I can understand it sticking in people’s throats that someone else gets to do their hobby and we don’t.
Edited to say if you can fulfil the two criteria in the first para I’d say knock yourself out, but maybe keep it to yourself ;-)
The decision has been taken based on Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s caution against unnecessary travel and contact with others, to take the necessary steps to protect the health and wellbeing of riders, officials, volunteers and spectators, and alleviate the risk of an additional burden on the emergency services at what is a hugely testing time.
It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.
Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds.
If it didn't make me angry and depressed we could have a "bringing out the worst in people" thread.
Just nipped out for a bit of a walk. https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1249657562057891845?s=21
Walkers have been urged not to take to the hills during the lockdown after 18 paramedics and mountain rescuers were required to help a woman who sustained a leg injury on moorland over the Easter weekend.
The woman was treated at the scene at Blackstone Edge near Littleborough in Greater Manchester on Saturday night during an operation that lasted for three hours and 15 minutes.
Oldham mountain rescue team (OMRT) said its volunteers had been asked by North West ambulance service to assist after the walker sustained a lower leg injury while “out enjoying the Easter sun”.
She was carried by stretcher to the team’s Land Rover and driven to a roadside where she was transferred to an ambulance.
As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.
As others have pointed out, the number of A&E visits for DIY injuries has no doubt increased. Or general accidents around the home.
Climbers out climbing are probably more safe than climbers building woodies.
I'm not sure arguing the toss about everything really helps anyone, climbing is clearly not ok if you're driving to it for the moment.
Collectively, climbers can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday, imagine the chaos if all climbers were allowed to go climbing by car as long as they were sensible. At least with cycling they keep moving.
Collectively, the Raven Tor demographic can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday...Fixed that for you.
Collectively, the Raven Tor demographic can’t even not fuck up the parking at Raven Tor on a bank holiday...Fixed that for you.
Baslow rd is one of the main exit points from the city into the Peak. It goes through Totley where I live which is the last urban area before open moors.It looks like a cycling bonanza when I look out at Baslow Rd, Totley.
*if the point being made is that within cities, it's a bit farcical I've genuinely missed that until now and I could understand that causing frustration.Part of my pointing out the exceptions to the rule and interrogating the basis for blanket restrictions, is that I fear when it does eventually come to a point where SD measures can start to be relaxed TPTB may be slow to include climbing and other relatively 'virus safe' sports if all the participants and governing bodies have enthusiastically championed the message that said sport should be stopped in the first place. Doubly so if the participants have become indoctrinated in assumptions regards social mixing and shared holds.
Conversely, within the scope of Yorks. sportclimbing, where Parish Councils may not entirely like climbers, I think as a group we're looking fairly well behaved aren't we?
I get your concerns about how we begin to return to normality (and the added frustration that you venture to places most others don't) and I suspect something along the lines of the TPTB releasing wishy relaxation statements and those that fit the 'Pete +1' demographic starting to venture out, with both sides getting it wrong to a certain degree (pitchfork/keyboard warriors and climbers alike). I'd be interested to know how you feel it may be best
For LRR, I'm not sure if anyone did make a report, but I definitely saw someone saying to send the photo to the police.
For the Canal and River Trust it is buried in replies to comments on one of their Facebook posts. The blue ticked profile asked witnesses to report fishing on the canal to the police and EA.
I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.
Seeing this this morning really pisssed me off. If some climbers are going to stick two fingers up to the rest of us or use the I live in a van excuse then they should at least have the decency to not spray.
I mean, why dont we all go out there? I could be there in 20 minutes.
https://youtu.be/0Kkpaog1RU4
Murph I was just voicing how Im feeling....No, I totally get you fat boy. My rant was meant to no one in particular just putting down how I feel. I'm in totley and can get from front door to trackside in ten minutes.
Surely that video is trolling. Minus Ten Wall, Raven Tor....
10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.
I think the kids example is different from this and I know I'm not going to change your mind... but this form of cant do something I otherwise would is different to injury or personal circumstance. This is hundreds of us electing to not go climbing voluntarily for no actual binding reason. It's not the same as leaving your kids to fend for themselves.
Like dave says he's relaxed about it if you do it "without drawing attention to yourself". I dont think this counts to be honest.
10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.
10 minute drive. About the same distance van man has to go whenever he needs a pint of milk. Actually it's about the same as the extra distance van man has to go to get to calver spar rather than tideswell co op. So if calver spar is ok can I drive to curbar.
Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?
Three vans underneath Stanage, it's hard not to feel like these people are just taking the piss.
Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370?v=1#x9176431) that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!WCJ dale is notoriously difficult access wise. I can think of few less appropriate places climbers (locals or not)could be seen to climb on at this time. Moronic.
Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar.
All these climbers suddenly popping up in vans at major crags (which I rarely see in the parking on usual days) - some are quite obviously taking the piss.
If they can live in their van and have to keep driving to a shop for a pint of milk, why don't they just park up closer to the shop? Plenty of safe and quiet places to park. Yet they keep going back to the climbing because they've consciously made the decision that they want to go climbing - which they have driven to go and do.
The argument "oh we were here before lockdown" falls away. It's just selfishness.
just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.
Most people would consider buying food essential, going climbing isn't though.if I've understood you correctly?It's about 5 minutes to tideswell coop and 15 to curbar spar. That's what I meant.
Just to unpack this.
....
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar. Driving for food is essential travel, driving to Curbar is clearly non-essential.
Maybe van man can't afford the co-op because he's been put on Universal Credit so he's gone to the Spar.
You obviously don't know Calver Spar - it makes Waitrose look like Netto. Milk is probably £10 a pint.
just that cyclists should make peace with the fact that their position is probably really one based on government advice and not based on a strong moral/logical/statistical basis. I'm happy for someone to pull the stats apart a different way to argue the opposite position.
...and here's me thinking I'd get to avoid work today by discussing the impact (if any) I'm having on R with Barrows.
:popcorn:
Phil Burke who lives in or near Litton has reported on UKC (https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/outdoor_climbing_-_time_to_put_it_on_hold-717370?v=1#x9176431) that he has passed non-local boulderers (5x) each time he has walked past Rubicon!WCJ dale is notoriously difficult access wise. I can think of few less appropriate places climbers (locals or not)could be seen to climb on at this time. Moronic.
Massively disappointing and at a very public venue so also very bad PR for the rest of us who will be tarred with the same brush.
I would question the notion that PB knows of every climber within walking distance thought.
Philb1950 10:45 Tue
In reply to UKB Shark:
Walked past before 9 this morning with the dogs and the couple I saw yesterday are actually bivvied there!
I can confirm that I hate fuckers posting board vids Will, and that it makes you an immoral cunt.
I see the police are now using ANPR to track people and call them out for 'unnecessary' journeys...
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-fined-for-heading-to-the-beach-during-lockdown-11972845
This starts to make my 'big brother-ometer' twitch...
I see the police are now using ANPR to track people and call them out for 'unnecessary' journeys...
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-fined-for-heading-to-the-beach-during-lockdown-11972845
This starts to make my 'big brother-ometer' twitch...
This is an interesting area to me. I get why this would make your big brother antennae tweaking, but I think it's absolutely right for the police to be using the tools they have available to help enforce the law.
For one thing, those cameras are already there. It's not like some massive undercover surveillance system has suddenly been rolled out; it's been around for years to help manage traffic flow and prevent / detect crime. It's being used for exactly that second purpose now.
For another, detecting people flagrantly flouting the rules is a clear social good in my view, and would be a hell of a lot harder without the technology. I mean the examples given are extraordinary; 200 miles for a fishing trip, 150 miles for a walk on the beach. I suspect those are the tip of the iceberg tbh, and identifying them, sanctioning them and then calling them out publically surely helps achieve our goal of stopping the virus spreading.
Interested in other views though, as clearly there is a line the police need to be careful not to cross, and I am very concerned about long-term infringements on civil liberties.
Was that a prod at me to respond to your earlier post? There seem to be two arguments here - travel and SD.
I can confirm that I hate fuckers posting board vids Will, and that it makes you an immoral cunt.
Peopletaking the pissdoing anything non-essential like walking or biking or running or skipping or yoga or buying alcohol or shopping more than once every few weeks or... may be helping to prolong lockdown and risks for health and care workers, and supermarket staff among others.
I hope he has a septic tank on board.
Anyone who is still climbing outside in the current climate is acting in a selfish irresponsible way t that only risks jeopardising access for the rest of us when restrictions get lifted.
Anyone who is still climbing outside in the current climate is acting in a selfish irresponsible way t that only risks jeopardising access for the rest of us when restrictions get lifted.
I've been told this morning of access being lost to 2 crags due to landowners seeing climbers there during the lockdown. I'm trying to find which they are.
Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52270658?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story
This has had a predicted fallout, fucking bellends.
Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?
Our local harbour authority has blanket banned all watersports around the estuary for the same reasoning, anyone caught out on a kayak or SUP or anything else is looking at a fine.
Someone told you access had been lost to 2 crags but didn’t tell you which ones they were? Who told you that?
Crag Hill would appear to be one (from the recently updates but if the RAD) https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/View.aspx?id=785
Our local harbour authority has blanket banned all watersports around the estuary for the same reasoning, anyone caught out on a kayak or SUP or anything else is looking at a fine.
Whereabouts?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52270658?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story
This has had a predicted fallout, fucking bellends.
New guidance document for police to help them enforce the lockdown regs.
From beeb:
''Part of the guidance spells out that it is acceptable to buy luxury items while shopping, and that driving somewhere to exercise is acceptable as long as "far more time" is spent walking than driving.''
30 mins drive / 1 hour exercise? Have at it Sheffield.. :jab:
(don't shoot the messenger)
Edit: that doc makes it hard for me to see how you could be fined for climbing, given it explicitly states "Exercise can come in many forms". But maybe not bouldering, cos those fuckers rest too much.
Edit: that doc makes it hard for me to see how you could be fined for climbing, given it explicitly states "Exercise can come in many forms". But maybe not bouldering, cos those fuckers rest too much.
Pirmin has set the benchmark
http://lizardclimbing.com/2020/04/15/the-almost-perfect-corona-climbing-day-panthera-11-9a-redpoint-and-corona-almost-as-well/
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?
So you can drive a short way to do these. Its not said crack back on with whatever you want?
Roads and isolated parking spots certainly seemed much busier today than last week.
It’s almost as if whoever wrote the guidance had Malham catwalk in mind when they wrote this.
Surely exercise is still limited to the few listed, walking, running or cycling?
So you can drive a short way to do these. Its not said crack back on with whatever you want?
That’s just because those are the three forms of (non-team) exercise anyone would come up if they thought for 2 seconds, surely?
I’m sure it has also been implied, if not explicitly said, the exercise should be around an hour. So that doesn’t leave much driving time to get out to the country if the exercise has to be significantly more than the driving time. Pretty unfair on the city dwellers!
It’s fucking daft.
In the same guidance it says that it’s not right to go out and buy paint to decorate your kitchen - but you can drive for an hour for a potter somewhere..
Moving to a friend’s address for several days to allow a ‘cooling-off’ following arguments at home.
Was a joke, as in people hanging around working their proj!
All feels a bit like they don’t want to irk too many voters rather than the right thing...
Why?
In the same guidance it says that it’s not right to go out and buy paint to decorate your kitchen - but you can drive for an hour for a potter somewhere..
Roads and isolated parking spots certainly seemed much busier today than last week.Agreed.
Why on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??
I've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres
QuoteWhy on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??
Umm, well, for the same reason you get more (presumably) out of going to Curbar (during normal times obvs) than going to the wall or park. Add in the fact that its heaving in the parks and round here they are mostly very linear (narrow paths, narrow valleys) and you get huffed on by joggers and have to jump out of the way of cyclists plus gates etc. Whereas Burbage is a six minute drive, unlimited space, and yes I get better mental health benefits from a huge open space with grand vistas etc. I would respectfully suggest if your choice of a house/ career etc wasn't entirely dictated by access to that open space you may not understand its importance.QuoteI've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres
Our road just never got that quiet. I'm think there are a lot of businesses that just carried on as they weren't explicitly told to stop. This is where the police should be busy imho.
Be interesting to see if the bmc change their stand point with the new explanation of the restrictions?
Can't imagine they will?
Secondly - I’d assume this means the same level of social distancing as happens at paint shops as at supermarkets now - If not greater as they would be less busy. So - is this really any worse than going somewhere for a walk where there are lots of other people.
Third, judging by the amount of DIY, gardening, car polishing and general furtling going on around here (and as evidence on social media I look at) - I would say that to many people doing some DIY is as important to their mental health as going for a walk is for others... I don’t think we can apply the feelings of the members of a climbing forum to the general population on this.
Pirmin has set the benchmark
http://lizardclimbing.com/2020/04/15/the-almost-perfect-corona-climbing-day-panthera-11-9a-redpoint-and-corona-almost-as-well/
Publicising nearly doing a new route (and calling it Corona)?
It still comes down to asking yourself the question of who do you want to be, and are you part of the problem or solution.
QuoteWhy on earth might people in Sheffield (for example) feel they have to go to Curbar for a walk instead of near their houses??
Umm, well, for the same reason you get more (presumably) out of going to Curbar (during normal times obvs) than going to the wall or park. Add in the fact that its heaving in the parks and round here they are mostly very linear (narrow paths, narrow valleys) and you get huffed on by joggers and have to jump out of the way of cyclists plus gates etc. Whereas Burbage is a six minute drive, unlimited space, and yes I get better mental health benefits from a huge open space with grand vistas etc. I would respectfully suggest if your choice of a house/ career etc wasn't entirely dictated by access to that open space you may not understand its importance.QuoteI've noticed a "creep" back toward average re pedestrians in town centres
Our road just never got that quiet. I'm think there are a lot of businesses that just carried on as they weren't explicitly told to stop. This is where the police should be busy imho.
What makes it more important for you to go out for a walk at Curbar than anyone else in that park JB?
I would respectfully suggest you should live somewhere more rural yourself if that’s an issue? :p
Completely agree with that. Access to and being in nature is a completely different level of satisfaction for me than simply going to the local park. Yes, that helps but the lockdown has made me aware of how much I personally gain and find helpful being in the outdoors. My own mental health is generally fine but I am certainly one of those people who finds themselves much happier, more sane and more generally healthy if they are able to get into the countryside regularly.
So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.
If you live close enough to crags/hills or out in the proverbial middle of no-where great. Really - good luck to you and enjoy the space you have. Enjoy what that affords you at this time - and I really don't get your beef if you're able to get out and use that space!
So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.
What Barrows said.So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.
I'm not trying to have a go or accuse you of being a hypocrite, Stu, but I just want to examine this. Does his mean that you haven't been out for a walk/run/cycle/whatever? Because as Barrows said, nobody really has to do these things.
So, if the thing you want to do increases the chance that you come into close contact with someone with whom you do not live, you should think long and hard about if you really have to do it.
But I'd bet 95% of people don't really have to do anything, including walk/bike/run, to avoid them actually killing themselves. You could even smash out a fast for a few days at the end of every resupply. Over the course of a few restocks there's a trip to the shops avoided or a delivery slot saved for the elderly.
Solange sich die Natursportler an die allgemeinen Regeln der Verordnung zur Ausgangsbeschränkung halten, sind von der Polizei Ebermannstadt keinerlei Beanstandungen zu erwarten.
As long as people pursuing outdoor sport stick to the general rules of the lockdown declaration, then they don't need to worry about any objections from the Ebermannstadt police.
"GYMS can remain open if they adhere to strict physical distancing and sanitation protocols"
Indeed, I don't see how this is possible to maintain, especially for climbing walls.
basically you've just described the ideal behaviour from an epidemiology point of view. We should all strive to get as close to this as we can manage, and we'll get out of this sooner.
Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.
I already mentioned this (in a fit of jealousy) further up the thread; here's the actual frankenjura.com link (https://www.frankenjura.com/frankenjura/news/artikel/1840) with the quote from the head of the local cop shop when explicitly asked about climbing:QuoteSolange sich die Natursportler an die allgemeinen Regeln der Verordnung zur Ausgangsbeschränkung halten, sind von der Polizei Ebermannstadt keinerlei Beanstandungen zu erwarten.
... roughlyQuoteAs long as people pursuing outdoor sport stick to the general rules of the lockdown declaration, then they don't need to worry about any objections from the Ebermannstadt police.
Stu - I think we're in agreement there, but I don't think that's how the guidance is being presented or being interpreted and applied by the average punter. I then look at the local park/street and figure that we won't be out of this quick, so I may as well make it more sustainable/less shit medium-term. Gov should just have gone full lockdown and not fucked around.
I think the most important bit is the result TT. Is it getting R0 down? Yes, according to latest briefing. Then the measures are working and doing what they're designed to do, despite all the fudge and inconsistency. Some government advisers have already expressed on record how the public have followed the lockdown regs more closely than the models estimated they would. I think the fluffiness in the guidance around being able to move around on the edges of what's OK just reflects that the measures are working, whether we obey them strictly as individuals or not. If the R0 wasn't dropping to below 1 then the measures (and their enforcement) would be stricter. Only my opinion.
The National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC) has now issued guidance for police officers in England to explain the reasons that someone could "reasonably" leave their home during the COVID-19 lockdown.
They stress it simply helps officers to interpret on the original government advice.
Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry during Covid 19’
Like the people who, earlier in this thread ascertained that cycling was safer now due to there being less traffic on the road. I kinda get that to a certain extent but there is a very counter argument here. How many people drive a little quicker on roads that they think are quieter? Does that not increase the likelihood that there would be more dangers for cyclists? Especially those that are maybe a little rusty on the old steeds.
There are two issues with using other people’s loose application of a lockdown to justify your own loose application.
The first, and biggest, is that it only leads in one direction. And it ain’t the right one.
The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...
I’m quite sympathetic to people going to work and thinking their business is essential when it’s not. People have to feed their families somehow.
Those of us fortunate enough to be in the position I am - stable job, work from home should try and be the domino that doesn’t fall, for everyone’s sake.
The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...
Does anybody think, that even if we locked down to an actual house arrest scenario, we would actually defeat the virus?
OMM - maybe the larger walls can work with this more easily by reducing the density of holds (e.g. one problem every 2-3 m wide) and limiting the entry..If anything, increasing the density of problems would be better.
This reduces the use per problem - and allows problems to be cleaned and allowed to be used etc..
R0 dropped from 2.7 to 1.6, and the “effective” population size dropped by a third. So a small fraction of people doing their bit does make an impact.
The second I need to think more about and perhaps model, but I suspect that if a decent minority of us execute a strict lockdown, then that can have a disproportionate impact on Ro, by breaking chains of infection. Think of if as trying to be the one domino that doesn’t fall...
This would be interesting to know. My instinct is that it wouldn't have that disproportionate impact, but I wouldn't know where to start with building a model that knew enough about how people move around and interact to be able to produce something reliable on this Q.Does anybody think, that even if we locked down to an actual house arrest scenario, we would actually defeat the virus?
OMM- I don't really get your point. I think Stu's point on R is that this is like compound interest. Let's assume that a "cycle" is 7 days, after which people get symptoms and isolate to stop infecting. Let's say you want to get new cases down to <1% of where you started to then initiate a contact tracing phase. If R= 0.9 this takes ~45 cycles, i.e. ~45 weeks. If R = 0.5 this takes ~ 7 weeks... so locking down hard makes sense in almost all circumstances surely.
R0 dropped from 2.7 to 1.6, and the “effective” population size dropped by a third. So a small fraction of people doing their bit does make an impact.
That's only a slightly disproportionate impact though right? 30% being rigorous = 40% reduction in R0 (vs intuition of 30%).. Does it get more disproportionate at lower numbers staying home, e.g. 10%?
EDIT: actually, 33% (relative) disproportionate impact on R0 probably is quite major if you articulate it that way
So my rule is still simple; if there's a chance - even a small one - that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.
Any thoughts on sharing home walls (scheduled, limited to 1 person per time, maybe max 1 per day, wipe down afterwards?)
Lockdown Rules - Still Ambiguous, but the Right Thing is Clear
And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.
Any thoughts on sharing home walls (scheduled, limited to 1 person per time, maybe max 1 per day, wipe down afterwards?)
I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.
Will, I suspect you are being a bit of a dick here for the sake of argument.
Is your point really that I cannot suggest that people get as close to possible as perfect, because I myself have not been completely perfect?
The point I thought was quite clear is that the risk from going out for a short walk run/jog etc really is extremely minimal. It's quite proper to say "try and take no more risk than that", without having to deal with the counterpoint, "ah, but the risk is not zero".
If we followed your version of "logic", we could not accept the merit of putting more gear in, because the gear might fail anyway.
So my rule is still simple; if there's a significant chance- even a small one -that you'd have more contact than walking round someone at a wide berth. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to.
The guidance in the USA re restarting the economy is interesting, gyms reopening earlier in the process than I'd have expected.I've tried to decipher what that means for (outdoor) climbing here. I'm thinking it could fall in phase one but more likely could return in phase two (ethical discussions still relevant). However it hasn't stopped lots of people continue to climb over here :whatever:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing
I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.
If I've understood your circumstances right (can easily get to a local crag that no other f*cker goes to and doesn't have lots of walkers nearby), then if I were in them I'd be going climbing now. But I'm in Sheffield, so I'll go fingerboarding instead and then moan about being shit and injured on the internet. Plus ca change.
UKC posted an article today that to me justifies going climbing if you want to, and definitely allows for JBs trips to the peak.
I assume its been correctly researched and states its not against the rules to drive out to somewhere to exercise but the journey should be less time than the exercise, climbing ticks this box i guess.
It says that whilst guidance does not state that climbing is allowed (yoga is apparently) it also doesn't specifically state it isn't.
You can go out more than once a day and you can go out for more than an hour.
I am now very much back to thinking that if i avoid any contact with others and stay local i can go climbing.
Following new guidelines from government and the HSE we have lads out working again, only a few and all thoroughly risk assessed and controlled. We expect the numbers to increase each week with only the issue of accommodating stopping us. Applying what i know re this via work i cant see how going climbing shouldn't be allowed.
We need to be careful that if we apply our own rules to the situation, and act self-righteously, we will get left at the back of the list when it comes to re opening everything up. Talk of all the reasons we cant go, such as touching holds and leaving the virus on them (seems very unlikely to me) could be very counter productive in the long term.
And for what its worth cycling seems far more dangerous than climbing and a good friend in S&R backs that up by saying he goes pick up far more mountain bikers than climbers.
Can we change to topic title to ‘Pedantry duringCovid 19’ SARS Cov2
No need to call me a bit of a dick.
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing
Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing
Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?
I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing :)
No need to call me a bit of a dick.
In the spirit of pedantry, he didn't call you bit of a dick, he said you were being a bit of a dick.
Former is an insult, the other is observing a ( hopefully temporary) course of action.
Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing
Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?
I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing :)
And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms. Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.
while road biking has significantly less risk than mountain biking or climbing
Just to clarify, Ian. When you say "climbing", do you mean high-altitude mountaineering, fast and light alpinism, ski-mountaineering, freebase, The Indian Face, a nice diff, Malham Catwalk, Gordale trad, Stanage sunset soloing, gritstone HVSs, highball bouldering, headpointing, traversing your garden wall, deep water soloing, the-floor-is-hot-lava house climbing, the Olympic speed wall, board climbing in a garage, onsighting at your limit, normal bouldering, sea cliff climbing, climbing Gee Gee Rider out of Gaping Ghyll when the stream has been diverted, aid climbing in Yosemite, aid climbing in the Urals, or lowballing at Windy Choss Clough?
I mean a general mix of indoor bouldering and leading, UK and foreign sport climbing and UK trad climbing :)
And slightly more seriously it seems that quite a few people are keen to make the 'cycling is just as/more dangerous as climbing' point, I just really don't see any evidence for that, climbing is nowhere near as dangerous as your average lay person thinks but does involve some risk of injury in most of its forms. Certainly travel insurance companies don't believe that, many will cover road cycling for no additional premium I haven't found any that cover climbing, bouldering or downhill mountain biking without significant additional premium.
Perception v reality.
ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.
Perception v reality.
ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.
Perception v reality.
ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.
@IanP
Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.
So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.
Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.
What you've written is not my rule either though. It would be better written as:
If there's a chance - even a small one - that you are more likely to come into contact with someone than you would going for a stroll somewhere quiet, think really hard about whether you really need to do that thing.
Isn't that easy?
Gav - I think you must have read the half of that UKC article that looks at what's legally OK, and not the bit in the black box that says please don't go out. Having said, that, there are situations where you could go climbing and satisfy my simple rule. As I've said before, if that applies to you then fill your boots.
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.
Perception v reality.
ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000.
Interesting , couldn't find any breakdown of stats, type of accident etc - certainly insurance companies don't agree but not sure how much detail info they have to make decisions on.
You only have to go to Llandegla at the the weekend to see that mountain biking is significantly more dangerous than road biking, the ambulance is there most weekends. My feeling is that I know a lot more people who have been injured requiring medical treatment climbing (broken ankles, upper body inuries, head injuries etc) than road biking, but as you say this just may be my perception. And on mountain biking (by which I mean trail/lite downhill style) pretty much everybody I've ever biked with as had significant offs involving some sort of medical treatment from stitches right up top days spent in hospital,
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.
All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.
I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.
I didn’t say they were not busy, just said I have not used them despite breaking stuff. Always hobbled or hopped out and got myself to hospital as I suspect many in here have.All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.
I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.
That’s rubbish.
The MR teams are pretty damn busy and not only for silly call outs.
Just because you haven’t required them, doesn’t negate the argument, nor make it a non-argument.
Pure survivor bias.
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.
That won’t wash.
Even if you decide not to call out the team, if you are overdue and missed/reported the team will be out anyway.
I didn’t say they were not busy, just said I have not used them despite breaking stuff. Always hobbled or hopped out and got myself to hospital as I suspect many in here have.All of this is a non argument. I could just as easily twist my ankle out walking the dog or twist a knee. I walk the dog away from the roads shall I not do that either.
I have broken bones and sprained ankles a few times climbing And never called out MR, and have witness others do the same.
I have seen a couple of bad ones That did need MR but minimal in 30+ years of going out.
That’s rubbish.
The MR teams are pretty damn busy and not only for silly call outs.
Just because you haven’t required them, doesn’t negate the argument, nor make it a non-argument.
Pure survivor bias.
Wouldn’t have lived with the piss taking of having to call them.
Don’t call the MR then. Some of us do our risky outdoor activity in places overseas without MR and are happy to accept those risks. Personally I don’t like the way the MR argument has been presented, though I begrudgingly accept it’s there to put off the numpties. I’m happy to go out on Kinder on the basis of me crawling back to my car if I break an ankle.
That won’t wash.
Even if you decide not to call out the team, if you are overdue and missed/reported the team will be out anyway.
These aren’t normal times though are they? It’s not the law that you must be rescued! It’s a reasonable assumption that if you injure yourself in the UK hills at the moment you’re on your own. This idea that that makes hill walking too risky is ridiculous. There’s something very wrong if previously people were heading into the hills only willing to accept the risks with the safety net of the MR.
As Gav says I’m more likely to hurt myself around the house.
@IanP
Travel insurers don’t really understand risk. One example: you pay less for a shorter trekking policy that goes to high altitude, whereas you’re less likely to get ill (and need evacuation/medical assistance) on a longer trip with more time to acclimatise. It’s perverse.
So I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from how they load policies that include cover you for climbing, compared to a mass participation activity such as cycling.
Anecdotally, adventure travel companies that run mountain biking trips have a lot of accidents.
I'm not sure its correct to say that insurance companies don't understand risk, I would imagine their actuaries have much better understanding of the statistics and risk than your average layman, however I agree that they almost certainly don't have a detailed understanding of the relative risks for different aspects of niche activities.
I’m only talking specifically about travel insurance as that’s what I have direct experience of. If you mean the premiums would relate precisely to where the claims fall, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case bizarrely.
I can't really comment on why the data would say that, but one example might be the way that trekking policies are grouped with other risks due to lack of credible data.
I can't really comment on why the data would say that, but one example might be the way that trekking policies are grouped with other risks due to lack of credible data.
Presumably if you have limited data, it would be v easy to group all trekking policies together, see that longer = more risk, but not spot that this doesn't hold for specific sub-sets of policies. Especially as I guess people may be going on extended trips where time trekking is not equal to length of policy, so the data all becomes quite jumbled...
I've been walking on Ilkley Moor during the last few weekends. Yesterday there was a definite increase in numbers. The Cow & Calf parking area is still closed but the lay-bys and pull-ins were all full of cars. Previously the people I saw on the Moor generally had the look of ramblers and fell runners; yesterday, there seemed to be far more families with bags of food and drink sitting around and not venturing far (and lots more cheap looking "fashion" wear to be horribly snobbish). I suspect the recent announcements on driving to take exercise being reasonable has had an effect and people are now feeling it's okay to travel into the countryside from the towns and cities .
Re the Pirmin thing: yes he's made himself look a total prick in the way he has communicated his activities (Again. See also: whining when Ondra downgraded his route) But climbing locally with his wife on a quiet sector in the woods is perfectly ok under Bavarian lockdown rules & explicitly confirmed as such by the polizei.[/quote]
So we have argued, we have gone round in circles, its got a bit heated at times but generally people are not climbing.....You'll know when that is easily enough. It'll start raining and not stop.
So as the curve flattens, as restrictions are vaguely lifted (interestingly in Germany there was no restrictions on climbing ) when do we feel it is ok to go out again? When travel is relaxed, when people are working again.....when ?
Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.
You'll know when that is easily enough. It'll start raining and not stop.
Much busier here this weekend but obviously in comparative terms. Must have passed 20-30 people on my normal dog walk where as I saw two this morning.
Same here but but it was confined locally to the town and surrounding villages (i.e. most likely people doing entirely reasonable things), a few miles onto the moors and there wasn't a soul as per usual (I did have to laugh at the "Go home, stay home" sign next to a farm track; you couldn't see the farm or any other signs of civilisation from the road).
The Hangar recently posted this if it's of interest:
https://gym.vertical-life.info/articles/covid-19-risk-mitigation-in-climbing-gyms-setting-up-a-european-strategy?fbclid=IwAR2pyXTTfGZL5xz8h8pK3JtBqk0rHOGUu_b4-ntdQuNcFV1p9qqj74H4vfY
Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation.
Climbing (BMC) needs to start having a conversation as to why we should be allowed back out and start looking to get away from this self flagellation.
To be fair on them, they are trying. I am in email conversation with the BMC who have been in contact with the police in England and Wales and various other organisations such as DEFRA. So far as I can see, every government organisation has a different interpretation of the law and or guidance, sometimes they have different interpretations within organisations.
despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.
I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity...
But it will presumably be the case that we have to deal with this for the rest of 2020 at least. A month or two wont change that. So your alternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.
Presumably the new rule will be: if people are there and you'd be climbing within X metres of them, go elsewhere. There may be other rules around not climbing at certain venues with dodgy access, or not climbing if it makes life hard for walkers (e.g. the cornice may be problematic, as there's a path at the bottom of it), or not climbing on other people's draws... I think what gav is saying is that he hopes the BMC are working on providing answers to these questions - solutions that are workable, easily communicated, maximise safety without being absurdly restricted etc.. It will rely on people not being dicks, e.g. "I know you were here first but I'm going to climb anyway, so if you don't like it you'll need to leave". I imagine there will be some nasty arguments and public shaming, for better or worse. I imagine travelling to a crag a notable drive away will be risky, unless you have 10 good bail options planned out for if people are already there.
The alternative is that the BMC take the view that the only way to minimise stupidity is to say "no climbing until this is all over", which means 2021/2022? But if that's the case most serious climbers will just ignore them and the community will create its own rules, probably with more fighting, public shaming and shitstorms than if the BMC is involved. That being said, if the BMC stick to a "no climbing" rule keeps half the climbers away from the crags then maybe it will be worth it.
Climbing with lamps at night or getting up at 4am may be worthwhile to minimise chances of meeting people at the crag (at suitable venues obvs)
despite what some might say cyclists are having a field day and the only thing that they have lost is going out in groups. I see little reason that this could not be true of climbing. Yes you might find the crag you wanted to go to is busy already so you have to go to another. Not to much to ask.
People just don't do this reliably.I think you underestimate people's propensity for stupidity...
Whether this is true or not is not the point, what we need to be telling the government is that we can self regulate and then do our best to do so. Climbers are generally pretty good with a small minority who are dicks. Just needs a bit of self policing.
Could UKC/rockfax app be quickly adapted to allow people to log there arrival and departure at a crag so people can have an idea of whos there.
Soyouralternative solution would just be not to climb outside for the whole of the year. Fuck that. There will need to be new norms, policed by the community, like bird bans, or hogging routes.
The...
Could UKC/rockfax app be quickly adapted to allow people to log there arrival and departure at a crag so people can have an idea of whos there.
So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?
I am just trying to think of ways to get us out again. I dont see it being a problem for me to be honest as i could just go now but would prefer it to be official as to not fuck off any access arrangements etc.
I tend to agree with Alex that the status quo cannot hold for the rest of the year.
This is why I pedantically corrected his language; I completely agree and I'm not suggesting it will or should just that people (myself included) can be complete morons at times.
Until we can all mix freely as we could before March it’s going to lead to a load of awkward situations at crags (with climbers and non climbers) if the law/interpretation is relaxed...
So we are looking at ways that we could get out climbing again and you think that someone would actually lie that they were at a crag to stop others going? Do you think climbers are actually that low?
Yes, totally. I think just have the rule of "if you'd be within X metres of others then go elsewhere". Although obviously I'd still get up at 5am to get to the crag first "to stop others going"... if that makes me a bad person then I'll pray for forgiveness between attempts.
Almost all of the discussion around this topic (that of leaving home for exercise) has been self-centred. People wondering what it means for them and demanding that others do the same. We've seen that in the climbing discussion where folk like Jim have taken the position that if he can't go climbing then nobody else should be allowed (I'm paraphrasing a bit, I know), and others have very begrudgingly and very disdainfully taken the view that "if you can't control yourself then fill your boots at walking-distance-from-your-house lowball Windy Choss Clough" (paraphrasing again) - i.e. recognising that there's no harm but making it clear that they think you're a tool for even considering it - because this is a time for national suffering and everyone should suffer as much as possible goddammit.
We're chastising people for making short car journeys to exercise, but what if you're a vulnerable person who has to get out to walk the dog and doesn't have a big back garden? Why not make that short drive to nearby countryside so that you can exercise in the lowest-risk environment possible. If these allowances are to be made, it should be the most at risk who are allowed to take advantage of them first.
You lot are only all worried because for you, climbing takes place at Malham or not at all. For y'all and the other 90% of climbers who would rather not climb than visit Sypeland, I wish you the very best of luck.
For the avoidance of all doubt, I think if you can walk to climbing that has no access issues and is pretty quiet then I would crack on. From memory I think I'm on the same page as Stu on that point. If we take a hypothetical person who can walk to a popular crag with access concerns, then no, I don't think they should climb. Others think differently. As we've discussed in another thread, I also think there is a community/solidarity aspect to this, which you disagree with. To a certain extent that is informing my opinion that for the greater good we should all suck it up for now so we can all enjoy it again down the line. I am pretty confident that I would think this even if I lived within walking distance of a crag, popular or not.
I think the previous discussion was more interesting about climbing in (hopefully ) a few weeks...
If you are a vulnerable person, you have been told(advised?) to stay in your house for the next 9 weeks anyway and shouldn't be walking your dog.
If you are a vulnerable person, you have been told(advised?) to stay in your house for the next 9 weeks anyway and shouldn't be walking your dog.
Yeah, needless self-flagellation as an act of solidarity is a poor argument IMO.
I don’t want to discuss the old topic anymore. In my mind we are all pretty much in agreement and 99% of climbers are now not climbing.
We need to turn the whole subject in to one of how we can get back outside as soon as possible and get our official body to support and push those ideas forward.
I don’t want to discuss the old topic anymore. In my mind we are all pretty much in agreement and 99% of climbers are now not climbing.
We need to turn the whole subject in to one of how we can get back outside as soon as possible and get our official body to support and push those ideas forward.
Climbing is allowed again in Austria now, so long as you are with people from your household and maintain sensible distance from other people. As I understand it, the government asked sports associations to draw up guidelines for a gradual return to normal practice.
https://www.bergsteigen.com/news/neuigkeiten/klettern-klettersteiggehen-und-auf-skitouren-waehrend-der-corona-krise/
I guess the UK is a few weeks or a month behind Austria, so hopefully not too long to wait now.
From the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things.
For the first time in a while I am positive about things, admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.
I mean in terms of the chronology of the outbreak, sorry, acceleration, plateau, decline. Obviously we had a much bigger outbreakFrom the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things.
For the first time in a while I am positive about things, admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.
:o
Yesterday we had more deaths in one day that Austria has had in total...
Today we recorded 100 times more new CV cases than Austria (4600 to 46)...
Our rates have dropped for two days on the bounce which is a really hopeful sign - but I'd have thought we're months more than weeks away - just looking at the numbers.
Nice edit.
I haven’t seen this linked yet so sorry if it has:
https://eveningsends.com/pretending-not-to-climb/
Interesting update to the regs:
https://coronavirus.blackstonechambers.com/new-lockdown-restrictions-clarification-or-confusion/
"(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse…”
I think this is aimed at the spend-the-day-hanging-in-the-park crew, and if you are 'exercising' you're fine. But we'll see.
I mean in terms of the chronology of the outbreak, sorry, acceleration, plateau, decline. Obviously we had a much bigger outbreakFrom the look of the ft data the UK is about a week behind Austria, but I suppose it all depends how that week goes and how willing the government is to relax things.
For the first time in a while I am positive about things, admissions are dropping and deaths are beginning to decline.
:o
Yesterday we had more deaths in one day that Austria has had in total...
Today we recorded 100 times more new CV cases than Austria (4600 to 46)...
Our rates have dropped for two days on the bounce which is a really hopeful sign - but I'd have thought we're months more than weeks away - just looking at the numbers.
To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor this afternoon - I'm trying to understand your behaviour as something other than complete selfishness. Please disbuse me of this notion, because I've got lots of time on my hands at the moment and a lifelong project at the Tor. Many many people would have been there today but chose to do the right thing instead. What excuse have you got?
:agree:To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor....
Hardly likely to be anyone on here?
To the folks bouldering at Raven Tor this afternoon - I'm trying to understand your behaviour as something other than complete selfishness. Please disbuse me of this notion, because I've got lots of time on my hands at the moment and a lifelong project at the Tor. Many many people would have been there today but chose to do the right thing instead. What excuse have you got?I hope you live in Litton/Tideswell, or that question is likely to backfire quite hard.
there are two or three more drifting around the eastern edges.
Struggling with ones mental health is not carte blanche to stick two fingers up at the rest of the climbing community. I suspect people have drawn their red lines on this already but I maintain that you don't need to presume that someone is at the point of a gun before criticising their actions. Loads of people are struggling with not getting out, me included.
Last time we discussed this it sounded like there were some van-lifers living there. The ones at Stanage have been moved to the campsite to try to discourage others, but there are two or three more drifting around the eastern edges.
As I've said before, I cannot believe the rush to be judging pricks when not in full possession of the facts. Even if they're not living there, that session might be their last resort before throwing themselves under a train. People are struggling. Wind your fucking necks in.
Was it yellow trousered overgrading youtube star maybe?
The people that are 'living' in there vans...its amazing how they disappear somewhere for 5 days then come back almost like they go somewhere to refresh and wash clothes, shower and pick up mail.....
Appealing simplicity aside, I don't think that's a very well fitting simile. Littering is intrinsically anti-social and leaves a permanent or semi permanent artifact in place. Maybe if the lone litterer is dropping a banana skin it works better, but then I suspect that wouldn't very well fit the posters favoured narrative.
Somebody summed things up nicely on the other channel with a post along the lines of "it's OK for me to drop litter because nobody else is".
Appealing simplicity aside, I don't think that's a very well fitting simile. Littering is intrinsically anti-social and leaves a permanent or semi permanent artifact in place. Maybe if the lone litterer is dropping a banana skin it works better, but then I suspect that wouldn't very well fit the posters favoured narrative.
Somebody summed things up nicely on the other channel with a post along the lines of "it's OK for me to drop litter because nobody else is".
As I've said before, I cannot believe the rush to be judging pricks when not in full possession of the facts. Even if they're not living there, that session might be their last resort before throwing themselves under a train. People are struggling. Wind your fucking necks in.
Don't disagree with any of that, just trying to interject a bit of light-hearted litter dropping-based humour into the serious business of being angry about things.
As for the Tor-goers my uninformed opinion is if they're desperate to climb then it would be more wise to find somewhere a lot less public, less frequented by other climbers and less sensitive access-wise than the Tor. Or just go for a run or a cycle (and avoid heavy breathing within 5 metres of others).
This is the thing that gets me, we are not an isolated sports community. Yesterday and previous days before non climbing locals of the peak district have commented to me that they have seen people climbing or cars parked at climbing venues. Non climber locals are asking me why are people doing this, I shrug feel embarrassed and have to say something about a minority etc etc
They were riding on the road. I did think I should have let the van tyres down but this would probably have led to another unnecessary journey.
As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks.
I can assure you the construction industry is not carrying on as normal A bit like climbing, there are some who are but the vast majority are not.
We have not been forced to work by a single contractor. The one or two sites we are on are better organised re distancing than your average Aldi.
As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks.
I know we've gone round the houses on this. But my gripe is that the only reason these are isolated venues is because no one else is climbing there. The tor would be quite busy or stanage or whatever but now that 95%(?) of us are doing as recommended these are isolated venues. Fauna will be nibbling at the flora growing in otherwise well trodden earth.
Fuck it shall we just go climbing?
I agree that climbing at the tor is unwise in terms of being seen by locals and non climbers and the potential impact that has and also in terms of the backlash from the climbing community.
However I really can’t see much issue with going to a isolated venue somewhere if you can get there without breaking the regulations.
As I have mentioned earlier in the thread my gripes are not with a few people going climbing causing minimal transmission risks. My issues are with large industries such as the construction industry carrying on as usual and now firms like Taylor Wimpey stating that they are going to have precautions in place that will enable them to get fully back to work! This is complete BS and should be stopped. I have seen plenty of contractors out recently with absolutely no precautions going on and suspect very much that there will be no actual precautions taking place on any building sites (well precautions that are effective).
Personally I haven’t gone out climbing but am becoming more and more tempted and am not keen on harshly judging others. A bit of of bouldering or some isolated sport climbing holds virtually nil risks and the longer this goes on with me seeing plenty of businesses carrying on virtually as normal the less I think the restrictions regarding exercise are reasonable.
As I have said on the other BMC thread rather than think of why not to go climbing we should start thinking about how we could go climbing safely or without breaking regulations.
What happened to the BMC thread? Can't find it.Hiding in the bmc discussions.
I'm sure this has been said elsewhere, but the whole point surely is that the only reason it is an isolated venue, is because the rest of us are not going there. If we all said sod it, the crags would be rammed, and lockdown would get a lot stricter very quickly.
I agree that a better approach long term from the BMC is to start looking at guidance so people can go climbing, but until that happens, everyone needs to play ball.
This thread really is going around in circles :slap:
coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.
That's really why climbing now is selfish as if everyone who wanted to did Stanage etc would be rammed, people would start traveling from miles away.
coming up for 50 pages of going round in circles. Impressive even by UKC standards.
And no mentions of Dense yet!
He's turned into a bat?
Sobering statistics certainly. I wonder whether many of these collisions are to do with more cyclists, (unlikely, I doubt that there are more cyclists we all just notice them as there are so few cars) or increased carelessness by either drivers or cyclists, assuming the roads are empty. I've certainly seen quite a few cars going absurdly fast mainly within Sheffield, but some pretty dangerous behaviour from motorcycles, cyclists and pedestrians as well.
I nearly ran in to the back of two blokes when I was doing some intervals on a single track road. I shouted that I was coming up behind them, they just looked and continued riding two abreast. Fortunately there was enough of gap to get past.Care to clarify which was the recklessly riding party in this scenario...? 😁
Yes it's great. They do dodge the issue of honeypot car parks which seems to be the major issue for hillwalking and climbing. My own impression is this can be made to look bad in photos but need not be an issue due to temporal distancing that happens naturally. E.g. ~100 cars at Redmires Saturday, no distancing issues at all.
I didn’t say they were reckless, more that they were riding if the roads were closed. Also my brakes are pretty good ;)I nearly ran in to the back of two blokes when I was doing some intervals on a single track road. I shouted that I was coming up behind them, they just looked and continued riding two abreast. Fortunately there was enough of gap to get past.Care to clarify which was the recklessly riding party in this scenario...? 😁
Yes it's great. They do dodge the issue of honeypot car parks which seems to be the major issue for hillwalking and climbing. My own impression is this can be made to look bad in photos but need not be an issue due to temporal distancing that happens naturally. E.g. ~100 cars at Redmires Saturday, no distancing issues at all.
What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?
I just don’t see a problem with the majority of car parks in National Parks wrt social distancing. Sure, stick some hand sanitizer on gates.
What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?
Agreed, that's why I wrote 'can be made to look bad in photos'. The public perception is the problem, not the facts.
What, like those huge ‘honeypot’ car parks just outside of supermarkets?
Agreed, that's why I wrote 'can be made to look bad in photos'. The public perception is the problem, not the facts.
People go to supermarkets to buy food. Using an imperfect but fairly necessary situation to make your point(s) isn't ideal.
Just on that Adam. This point irks me, along with the MR, risk of injury and transmission justifications that have been used for saying don't climb. (Access being the most valid justification that I can see).
The BMC bods may be concerned. But their job is to represent BMC members, not the general public flip-flopping up Snowdon. The majority of the masses of people who mobbed Pen y Pass and Llanberis would not have been BMC members. They were the people who typically mob Snowdon on a sunny spring or summer weekend.
Let's have the BMC focusing on representing the interests of its members who want to go hill-walking and climbing, and not use non-members driving to eat ice-cream on top of Snowdon as justification for policy.
Not sure I understand? Surely the risk of transmission at the supermarket is going in and being near people/touching surfaces. Not the car park outside. So it’s accepted that there is no serious risk from parking otherwise they’d have a ‘one in, one out’ system at car parks with you only being able to park in every other bay.
Yeah, I pity all those people who haven’t enquired on a website first regarding which trousers they should be wearing 😂Brown trousers for trad I presume.
The Angling Trust have put together a really good proposal (https://joinanglingtrust.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/FULL-REPORT-TO-GOVERNMENT-MINISTERS-FINAL-1.pdf) for Government about how fishing might start again. Would there be merit in the BMC doing something similar?
Ditto climbing, crags next to public paths stay out of bounds (cornice, Rubicon, etc (tor maybe)) but anywhere away from normal public areas are open.
Angling has a lot of participants and also is generally commercially operated, so more reason to get fisheries open and have 1000s of business owners backing it. Climbing doesnt have this added benefit unfortunately.
Just on that Adam. This point irks me, along with the MR, risk of injury and transmission justifications that have been used for saying don't climb. (Access being the most valid justification that I can see).
The BMC bods may be concerned. But their job is to represent BMC members, not the general public flip-flopping up Snowdon. The majority of the masses of people who mobbed Pen y Pass and Llanberis would not have been BMC members. They were the people who typically mob Snowdon on a sunny spring or summer weekend.
Let's have the BMC focusing on representing the interests of its members who want to go hill-walking and climbing, and not use non-members driving to eat ice-cream on top of Snowdon as justification for policy.
Sure. But when to Police phone the BMC to say, 'more hillwalkers on Snowdon today, please get the message out Snowdon is closed' what would you suggest they say? They're not our hillwalkers?
Consequences are obvious. There's evidence that the BMC's communications will be used by authorities to inform their decision-making on what's reasonable. I mentioned to Barrows in a pm about a serving police officer stating on ukc that he will use the BMC communications as guidance to inform his decision-making on what's reasonable in the case of walker x or climber y being stopped.
That's the problem when you start taking responsibly for everybody, and brushing all BMC members with the same brush as all idiots who want to walk up Snowdon and who aren't BMC members.
That may be the case, but it hasn't stopped him doing it. And I doubt it would do anyone any favours to be pointing out his error if challenged.
Consequences are obvious. There's evidence that the BMC's communications will be used by authorities to inform their decision-making on what's reasonable. I mentioned to Barrows in a pm about a serving police officer stating on ukc that he will use the BMC communications as guidance to inform his decision-making on what's reasonable in the case of walker x or climber y being stopped.
That's the problem when you start taking responsibly for everybody, and brushing all BMC members with the same brush as all idiots who want to walk up Snowdon and who aren't BMC members.
The police should not be allowing the BMC's advice to influence their decisions. The BMC's advice touches on both legal and practical considerations, whereas the Police should only be concerned with upholding the law. They have no power to enforce what they think people "should" be doing in a non-legal sense. As far as upholding the law is concerned they should interpret that for themselves, not use the interpretation of a third party. So the policeman was wrong.
Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.
Better that climbers are policed by climbers, if it's that or not climbing.Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.
And...
We’re back to wardens.
That may be the case, but it hasn't stopped him doing it. And I doubt it would do anyone any favours to be pointing out his error if challenged.
This was my point earlier, that the BMC's article may have inadvertently made things more difficult for any climber getting challenged.
That may be the case, but it hasn't stopped him doing it. And I doubt it would do anyone any favours to be pointing out his error if challenged.
This was my point earlier, that the BMC's article may have inadvertently made things more difficult for any climber getting challenged.
Better that climbers are policed by climbers, if it's that or not climbing.Regards large carpark such as Stanage Plantation. Volunteer car park attendants could be a way forward. Climbers might be willing to hang around the Plantation carpark for a midweek morning if that was the price of climbing there in the afternoon. The attendant would direct people entering to suitable spaces (not next to people leaving a vehicle), and as people leave, to form a distanced queue if too many teams are returning to vehicles at once. Or whatever other common sense rules are devised.
And...
We’re back to wardens.
Oh yeah, because you're an organisation, and the general trend for organisations is to suck in all around them to justify their significance and grow funding. Who benefits? Not the members.
That's the bottom line for most of my disdain for the BMC's stance
Commissars surely instead of wardens? 😃
I'm nominating Barrows for the job as Warden for the Tor. Uniform can be a pair of knee pads.
I'm nominating Barrows for the job as Warden for the Tor. Uniform can be a pair of knee pads.
Van man replied to comments on his minus ten raven tor video to say that the Peak Ranger, the Police and the BMC have all said he is absolutely fine to climb. And that envy isnt a good trait to have...
Maybe he washes them in his own piss, hence clean looking and yellow.
Live Q&A with Rob Dyer, BMC Access Officer (England) at 12.30tomorrowtoday via the BMC Facebook page
www.facebook.com/BritishMountaineeringCouncil/
Think you have to download the Facebook app to participate
Agreed. As things stand the BMC can point to climbers as having shown exemplary compliance. However if the BMC delay constructive push-back, there is a growing risk that compliance will start to go down. In time there will be some/more negative media such as MR callouts to climbers, and the persuasive value of our collective compliance will be weakened. Now seems a good time to me to be attempting to influence government.
Going forwards, the BMC will probably be attempting to influence the government's decisions about loosening the lockdown in favour of allowing climbing to restart. Part of that will be showing that the climbing community can self police. That argument is strengthened if, to date, climbers have been behaving in the spirit of the lockdown rather than seeking to explore the limits of the current restrictions.
climbing gyms
Sketching up collapsing ice routes in the middle of the Cairngorms you wouldn't touch in a normal year should surely be at the top?
Sketching up collapsing ice routes in the middle of the Cairngorms you wouldn't touch in a normal year should surely be at the top?
Not from a contamination perspective ;)
Why would you think a post about despicable vandalism has a hidden agenda :slap:
...if the crags were busy with walkers and climbers this would be a lot less likely.:-\
Then ukbers wonder why ukb has the unwelcoming reputation
Then ukbers wonder why ukb has the unwelcoming reputation
We work hard to maintain this
Welcome, onlineclimber.
And a downgrade.
Whilst this is common place on forums, on UKB it is more obvious that lots of people know each other personally centered around mainly the Peak area.
:lol:And a downgrade.
DialupHillwalker?
I think the elephant bit is quite good
I think the elephant bit is quite good
Aye, regular fucking Banksy.
I havent looked at all 52 pages of this thread but has this been mentioned???
- That when we are allowed out, within 10 minutes the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.
- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...
Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.
I havent looked at all 52 pages of this thread but has this been mentioned???
- That when we are allowed out, within 10 minutes the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.
- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...
Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.
the end of the rope will have been put into your mouth about 12x.
Not wanting to gross everybody out but is worthy of working out what should be best practice for this situation.
- And a couple mins later, that very same bit of rope will be put into whoever you are climbing with's mouth another 12x...
Sounds like some restriction easing from Monday is likely (see PMQs summaries)... will it make it easier to go out and play? Fingers crossed...
Sounds like some restriction easing from Monday is likely (see PMQs summaries)... will it make it easier to go out and play? Fingers crossed...
No insights on what this will comprise on the news.
Done a bit of googling and Oliver Dowden is the Culture and Sport Secretary who is collating info on how restrictions in sport might be lifted.
Encouragingly the only interest listed on his Facebook page is “walking in the countryside”.
What’s the betting that golf courses will open on Monday? :-\
My bosses golf course in Yorkshire is apparently opening on Monday...
No one puts a rope in their mouth any more. It died with fumble clipping and chain grabbing.I still do that too. When was this announcement made?!
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.
All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.
All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.
All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!
He's right you know. I've reviewed all the clips of Shark on the Oak, and not once does he put the rope in his mouth.
All future belayers to be aware- Shark will be going straight for the clip / no short roping please!!!!!
*Announcement* Also please note I will no longer be pre-clipping the third bolt. :o
*Announcement* Also please note I will no longer be pre-clipping the third bolt. :o
Interesting. Whats brought that on?
Aye to that.
Hopefully no-one else has an encounter as bizarre as this...
After a lot of discussion on here during lockdown about what the new Covid etiquette should be out at the crags, just wondering what the current UKB collective thoughts and experiences are around this now?
I’ve mostly been out during the week and chosen reasonably unpopular lines at sport crags to avoid chances of sharing routes, and it hasn’t really been a consideration up to now but yesterday it was for the first time. The crag (Kilnsey) was probably busier than I’ve ever seen it, even pre-Covid, and all the stuff people had talked about doing once we could climb again had gone completely out of the window. If the ‘new norm’ is basically just the same as before then I’m not gonna swim against the tide, so just wanted to get an idea if this was the case now or just an exception yesterday.
It's also far from uncommon to find others on the PuppeteerOk, I wasn’t aware of that. But it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.
Blimey Ali - to me that all reinforces:
(A) bouldering on my own....
(B) never doing anything with ropes and all that jazz...
(C) never going on UKC chat....
I’m quite happy with all of that!
...it's not clear whether the first draw only was in or all of them with a rope in the first? If the former and you did that to me I'd probably pull your rope and remove your draw,The first draw only. But I’ve explained over there why it was in, and why I considered on this occasion it wouldn’t be a problem just to leave it there (because I thought it so unlikely anyone would be wanting to get on it even given how busy it was - it wasn’t just a simple case of trying to reserve the route). And I could clearly see the rope from where I’d be belaying - it’s about 10-15m away.
I've not read the UKC thread beyond the OP, but it's not clear whether the first draw only was in or all of them with a rope in the first? If the former and you did that to me I'd probably pull your rope and remove your draw, and think giving you shit on the internet is fair enough; if the latter then I'd be annoyed but would think it's your shout in these circumstances...
I thought I was reading the comments section of the Daily Mail tbh, zero point engaging with that unwarranted level of hostility.My only frustration with the guy is that he’s posted on there and then let it rumble on and on without responding even after I’ve tried to make amends and apologised directly to him several times.
I thought the flaming of Ali on the other channel was outrageous.
I’m heartened to see that I wasn’t the only one after all....
Neil
I'm not sure if you're the same Neil F who posted on the other channel, but thought this was the best part of that thread:
"If all those getting on their high horses on this thread deploy those horses at the crag, the tricky undercut starts must have been all but eliminated!"
It sounds like that’s where we are now. This raises a bit of an issue; there will be people who wish to be more cautious sharing crags with people who are past giving a fuck. Without a bit of understanding and polite tolerance of the other perspective, this is going to allow people to fuck up other people’s days.
FWIW Ali, if I had wanted to do the route, I would have probably asked if I could have pulled your rope and when you explained you would rather I didn't as you were being careful re: CV-19 I would have totally understand and moved on.
As for general Covid crag behaviour on Saturday and the reason I revived this thread...I witnessed or experienced the following: people brushing past or even bumping into me, someone absent mindedly pulling on my little warm up fingerboard thing hung beneath the route, up to 4 people swinging leads on the same route and quickdraws, large group swapping partners and sharing ropes throughout the day, conversation about lift sharing with what sounded like 3 or 4 in the car (I got the impression not from the same household), general mingling or sitting around pretty close, someone picking up our guidebook, someone asking to borrow our clipstick (awkward discussion declining). I realise this sounds like a grumpy old twat moaning and being over-sensitive (some of these may now be within govt guidelines - I’ve lost track) but it’s just so far away from what I imagined behaviour would be like when this was all being discussed during lockdown.
I agree with this if someone is already fully on the route (been up it, put draws in etc), but like I said earlier, not if they've just smashed draw 1 in to reserve the route.
Regards the general discussion, when I've been out bouldering in the past couple of weeks it's been similar; some being cautious and keeping to themselves, others completely reverting to pre-covid behaviour, lift-sharing, etc.
To be honest though I have complete sympathy with those now ignoring the guidelines. The gradual relaxation of lockdown has been so poorly managed it's easy to understand how most people have just switched off and started making their own minds up about what is acceptable or not.
you initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fine
....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.
....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.
I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).
Is he still banned? :worms: :tumble:
I think we should employ a 10mile radius local only rule at Kilnsey, be done with all you f**ckers.
Ali asked for opinions, and Gav gave his, which seems fair enough to me.I was just asking for opinions and experiences around general Covid crag etiquette on here to get an idea of what the consensus now was, not about that specific incident. I only read the stuff on the other channel after I'd revived this thread. But if anyone else wants to have a go at me that hasn't already that's also fine! :)
Most teen/20s climbers I've seen/heard at the crag don't appear to give a shit about lift sharing or groups or distancing.I've only had two bad experiences at the crag since Covid came along. One just before lockdown in March when my girlfriend was top roping something at an almost entirely empty crag and a group of teen/20s climbers asked to warm up on our rope. When she said she'd rather they didn't due to infection risk but would be off the route soon they looked at us like we were from another planet. The other was on Saturday with people similar age. Maybe it's the youth invincibility thing? Every other time out has been pretty respectful with people keeping their distance and checking it's ok with others before they did whatever they wanted to do.
Key point from that thread for me was:I didn't want to write a full transcript of the conversation over there on the other channel but this original position of just wanting to warm up on something and it being fine to say no changed very quickly to "Well I'm gonna get on it at some point today anyway" in an attempt to twist my arm. Despite there being a 7b+ free in between us and the route he was trying to get on. That's what got my back up and made me dig my heels in I think. But I shouldn't have done that, I should have just lowered my partner down and stripped the draw out for him.Quoteyou initially said if I wasn't happy about you getting on it just say no and that would be fineA bit of honesty at the start and I'm sure the response would have been different.
I have no doubt Ali is coming from a good place and one of conviction but I definitely think you're swimming against the crowd on this one.Yes agreed. From replies on both channels I can see that's the case and will adapt to avoid a repeat.
....but it’s not like the Bulge or Comedy. No one had been on it this year yet. As far as Kilnsey goes I thought it was as safe a bet as I could go for. Anyway, I’ve done the route now and Kilnsey is out for me at weekends.
I think this is a good time to remember that, when asked Three Nine replied to some poor bloke telling him to go and find another route at Kilnsey (admittedly there were a few others already).
Is he still banned? :worms: :tumble:
The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.
The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.
Tom, if that’s what he said it’s highly misleading.
Basically all the Peak people need to stay down south and not come up here clarting up our crags.Don’t worry next weekend I won’t be climbing but I’ll be at kilnsey in my hazmat suit checking people as they park up. Lift sharing with no proof of address = brick through the window to add ventilation for the return journey. Once the parking fills up I’ll patrol the crag for rule breakers, take photos and compile a report for a ukc thread on Monday.
Basically all the Peak people need to stay down south and not come up here clarting up our crags.Don’t worry next weekend I won’t be climbing but I’ll be at kilnsey in my hazmat suit checking people as they park up. Lift sharing with no proof of address = brick through the window to add ventilation for the return journey. Once the parking fills up I’ll patrol the crag for rule breakers, take photos and compile a report for a ukc thread on Monday.
The risk of catching it off a rope/draw at Kilnsey must be minuscule.I can’t explain it. Rationally I know all this, and I’ve done far riskier things in my climbing life. I’ve just got completely paranoid for some reason.
Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers
:lol:
Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers...
:lol:
Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers...
To think I spent most of last summer their on my tod.
Did notice the layby has been a bit full the last times I've passed.
I hope the heaving masses are looking after that crappy wall/fence! It'll be Whitehouses all over again if a herd of cows escapes into Shacklow Woods!
:lol:
Apart from Lees Bottom I haven’t been to a crag with 50 - 100 climbers...
To think I spent most of last summer their on my tod.
Did notice the layby has been a bit full the last times I've passed.
I hope the heaving masses are looking after that crappy wall/fence! It'll be Whitehouses all over again if a herd of cows escapes into Shacklow Woods!
From the last insta pic I saw of LB the fence looked in a bit of a sorry (not functioning) state. Hope someone has propped it back up...
Craggy Guildford have announced they’re re-opening on the 6th July :popcorn:
Lots of other walls announcing opening as well OMM.
Did they all just jump the gun before today’s announcement or looking at ways round the guidance?
The fence was in good condition in Wednesday night.Thanks. The state of the wall stresses me. Have bought some bits from farm suppliers to tidy it up a bit, next time I get chance.
The fence was in good condition in Wednesday night.Thanks. The state of the wall stresses me. Have bought some bits from farm suppliers to tidy it up a bit, next time I get chance.
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception, and overloading NHS
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception, and overloading NHS
In addition, we are advising people not to travel into or out of an area if it has been categorised as a very high alert level area. This is part of wider measures to help manage the risk of transmission. You can continue to travel into or out of very high alert level areas if you need to for work, education, to access youth services or because of caring responsibilities.
I get the feeling climbing walls will be staying open (could be wrong). The idea that going to the wall is safer than going to the crag is beyond absurd. Put me down as ignoring such 'guidance'. Mainly because I don't want entirely give up climbing, but I also don't want to catch or spread the virus.
I think the walls situation is very interesting. Initial disclaimer - I've NOT been to a wall since March.
From those I know who've been - its generally to the larger new gen large lots of space walls at non peak times and they've said its fine.
I know the Depot's have upped their messaging (on SM at least) about wearing face masks etc..
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance.
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance.
As a rule of thumb when you're reading the government advice websites, if it says "should" then it's guidance but not law, and if it says "must" then it's the law. Not foolproof, but they have generally been sticking to this convention so far as I can see.
This is interesting; there is a difference between the law and gov guidance.
As a rule of thumb when you're reading the government advice websites, if it says "should" then it's guidance but not law, and if it says "must" then it's the law. Not foolproof, but they have generally been sticking to this convention so far as I can see.
That’s how I have always understood the Highway Code.
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday....
Just trying to get an idea of how people on here are viewing the risks of climbing this time round? In terms of virus spread, public perception, and overloading NHS
I am going to struggle. I understand not going to a hotel in a Tier 1/2 area for a holiday, however driving from one Tier 3 to another to interact with no-one/few people and stand on a windswept moor seems a bit far fetched when I can sit inside in a restaurant for 2hrs with other disease riddled people.
You've still got Hobson Moor Quarry though.....
As an aside, any insight into the use of 'must' vs 'shall'?
Engineering standards (BS:EN) use shall for requirements, should for recommendations, shall not for prohibitions and may for permissions (this one can get a bit complicated).
Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.
Will is not used because of ambiguity over the future tense.
Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.
Is there any climbing wall specific evidence? I think extrapolating from gyms in general doesn't tell you a lot about walls as they're fundamentally different.
Ib) the scientists are emotionally attached to their original approach
when there are alternatives.
With Manchester and Sheffield both in tier 3 by Sat night, will be interesting to see how many follow the GUIDANCE to not leave their area, to climb in the Peak on Sunday...
I'm intrigued by what the alternatives are. I thought we'd been doing them all summer but R had stubbornly kept increasing beyond 1.
how many people actually suffer a serious / life-changing / enduring illness, or end up dying from it.
when there are alternatives.
Are there?
Ta. From what I've read 'shall' is still the preferred term of the EC, and hence in all EN standards.
when there are alternatives.
Are there?
...to full lockdowns, yes! The problem is people seem so completely bought into the lockdown idea that anyone suggesting something different, even by a small degree, is accused (to use Boris' vernacular) of intending to "let the virus rip".
I'm not saying lockdowns don't work. They clearly do in suppressing the virus, but that's all they do, kicking the can down the road. I'm saying there is a better balance to be struck that allows the vast majority of people to continue earning a living etc., and protects the people who need protecting.
Can someone point me at what defines 'their area'? This might seem pretty straightforward but after the various nuances between Lancs (it was done on a ward by ward basis) since July I genuinely don't understand what that means.
My money is still on a full lockdown (maybe with some school - primary - being open) in mid Nov lasting until after new year. The cat is well and truly out of the bag and TTI is playing a big catch up game again...
Must is not used because of ambiguity as to whether it refers to a requirement of the standard or external constraints.
Ah that's the knowledge I was after, thanks!
My money is still on a full lockdown (maybe with some school - primary - being open) in mid Nov lasting until after new year. The cat is well and truly out of the bag and TTI is playing a big catch up game again...
How will Boris manage that without looking like he's giving in to the Labour position? Remember, politics is more important than public health.....
I'm intrigued by what the alternatives are. I thought we'd been doing them all summer but R had stubbornly kept increasing beyond 1.
Well, there's two things there. One is the complete failure of our test and trace system, the other is the focus on R and case numbers, when those really aren't the best metric in my view;how many people actually suffer a serious / life-changing / enduring illness, or end up dying from it.
Already there's evidence coming out that survival rates are dramatically improved compared to the first wave (e.g. if you're aged 50-69 and have to go into intensive care, current 28 day survival rates have improved from 62% to 80%, and early discharge rates have more than doubled - source (https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports))
To try to link this back to climbing given the thread; a high R number in a climbing gym = highly unlikely to result in any serious / etc. illness IF those people who do catch it there make sure not to go and cough on their elders, whereas a high R number in a care home = big trouble.when there are alternatives.
Are there?
...to full lockdowns, yes! The problem is people seem so completely bought into the lockdown idea that anyone suggesting something different, even by a small degree, is accused (to use Boris' vernacular) of intending to "let the virus rip".
I'm not saying lockdowns don't work. They clearly do in suppressing the virus, but that's all they do, kicking the can down the road. I'm saying there is a better balance to be struck that allows the vast majority of people to continue earning a living etc., and protects the people who need protecting.
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives :lol:).
Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!
It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.
I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.
No sugar, Sherlock.
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives :lol:).
Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!
It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.
I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.
Did you hear Hancock saying yesterday that 5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.
I think there may be some real long term implications of this for our health - and the NHS/spending for years to come if we let it 'rip'...
Lots of the people who need shielding in some way are not the elderly who were staying at home doing jigsaws anyway. I can think of loads of people in their 20s and 30s who have health conditions that make them vulnerable. The world is a scary place to them - more so if they have to be confined to quarters because the disease is prevalent in their area.
No sugar, Sherlock.
Yes - my last sentence was typed without much thought! (mid zoom)
It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.
...for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.This is only true if the NHS is not overwhelmed.
Sorry for the delay replying (I was trying to think of some alternatives :lol:).
Yes age-based shielding is the major measure I was thinking of, but all of the other bits and pieces (hand washing, mask wearing, distancing, etc.) are part of the puzzle and should help. Again I think the problem here is the implementation of those measures; I mean as an example why on earth did all university education not move online for this year?!
It's a good point Will about reliance on family for childcare etc. However, it's an issue that could be addressed if, for example, we didn't lock down and pay people's wages and instead used that money to pay for free childcare. Let's face it, either way the grandparents aren't going to see the grandchildren, but at least the parents could keep their livelihoods.
I was completely supportive of the original lockdown, and I was amazed by the number of people who said they'd still gone climbing during the lockdown, after it lifted. But where I'm coming to now is a concern that lockdowns are a completely blunt instrument that suppress the virus at the expense of literally everything else, and I'm not convinced it's worth that sacrifice when, for instance, we do now have better treatment methods, the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy, the small number of people who need intensive care are now more likely to recover quicker/not die from the virus, and looking back historically deaths from respiratory illnesses are around average for the time of year at the moment.
they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...
they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...
Woah woah woah, this was a civil conversation. Don't be dragging jigsaws into it. I love a good jigsaw! Did a cracking space themed one at the start of lockdown. Highly recommend. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blppldyci-Puzzle-Jigsaw-Puzzles-Planets/dp/B07WZMYSY3
they were not staying at home and doing jigsaws prior to this; they're still not doing jigsaws and I'd be alarmed they'd had a personality transplant if they were ...
Woah woah woah, this was a civil conversation. Don't be dragging jigsaws into it. I love a good jigsaw! Did a cracking space themed one at the start of lockdown. Highly recommend. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blppldyci-Puzzle-Jigsaw-Puzzles-Planets/dp/B07WZMYSY3
Did you hear Hancock saying yesterday that 5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.
5-10% of all those infected (whether asymptomatic or not - and irrespective of age and severity of initial illness) were experiencing a form on long-covid.
A nice thought but unfortunately unworkable no matter how much money you throw at it. Current childcare provision is not sized to cope with the additional strains that all those extra kids would place upon it. There isn't the built infrastructure, nor the staff. The lead time to provide the solution is large.
As pointed out on another thread, the reason that respiratory illnesses are in line with other years is because the people who would normally be contracting and suffering with those illnesses are being more careful - but cases are still rising.
The hand washing, mask wearing, distancing stuff is all very well but it clearly isn't sufficient because cases are going up - even in Tier 2 areas. It slows it down, but exponential growth has a nasty habit of getting serious, even if the lead in time is a bit longer.
To be totally blunt, you need to consider that not everybody in the country enjoys a family life that is as simple as a self-contained unit of healthy individuals who can earn a good wage from their study in Pudsey.
The point is surely that if they're at the same level as previous years, and they stay that way, then why do things need to get any stricter
Firstly, ouch, no need to make it personal like that. We all have our problems and crosses to bear.
and they stay that way
Soz, it was a bit blunt but not meant to be nasty.
Respiratory illness levels - yes agreed and this is where I completely agree that care is needed, I'm not saying we should all just go back to the way it was. The point is surely that if they're at the same level as previous years, and they stay that way, then why do things need to get any stricter as per Wales and Labour calls for the UK as a whole, when that level was previously acceptable?
the average age of someone dying from C19 is pretty much bang on the average life-expectancy
Is there any data yet showing whether respiratory illness levels are rising quicker than previous years? Assuming that they always rise during the winter months.
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.
150k is there figure so about 30k a month. Hence why I think pessimistic bull shit and want to know what the same people said it would be back in March. There were some huge figures thrown about by the doom merchants on here.
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.
This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.
https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)
Is there a more civil way to make that point Spidermonkey?
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.
This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.
https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)
An interesting site (especially mobile phone data showing average 'social distancing' trends) but I'm not sure how they arrived at their number of deaths. The UK for example isn't the official number nor the ONS number. Excess deaths are likely the best indicator of the overall effects of covid and the FT page shows the UK at 67500 excess deaths and the US at 270,000 and still growing.
https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938
The way deaths are counted is important and the UK numbers capture fewer actual covid deaths than most western nations (Belgium seems to be the most honest). The Kings fund have a good article on UK counting but the last update was August
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deaths-covid-19
Is there a more civil way to make that point Spidermonkey?
Fair enough folks, thanks for setting me straight.
This site is useful, in as much as it updates it’s projections regularly and corrects assumed to actual. Most interesting is that it shows bed availability.
https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom?view=total-deaths&tab=trend)
An interesting site (especially mobile phone data showing average 'social distancing' trends) but I'm not sure how they arrived at their number of deaths. The UK for example isn't the official number nor the ONS number. Excess deaths are likely the best indicator of the overall effects of covid and the FT page shows the UK at 67500 excess deaths and the US at 270,000 and still growing.
https://www.ft.com/content/a2901ce8-5eb7-4633-b89c-cbdf5b386938
The way deaths are counted is important and the UK numbers capture fewer actual covid deaths than most western nations (Belgium seems to be the most honest). The Kings fund have a good article on UK counting but the last update was August
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/deaths-covid-19
Not wanting to restart an old discussion ;) , but the figures in the FT don't show that the UK capture fewer covid deaths that other western countries.
Comparing deaths on worldometers to excess deaths on FT (accepting that dates aren't in sync but since majority of deaths were earlier in pandemic so hopefully still gives a general idea of numbers) shows UK sits in the middle when compared to other European countries.
Country FT figures Gov figures Gov %
Portugal 7300 2297 31%
Germany 17800 10111 57%
Spain 57600 34752 60%
Netherlands 11300 7019 62%
UK 67500 44745 66%
Italy 50500 37210 74%
Belgium 10700 10737 100%
Sweden 5700 5933 104%
France 26600 34645 130%
You're right about Belgium, France is strange, seemingly having less excess deaths than recorded Covid deaths.
I knew I shouldn't get involved :lol:
It should be noted that excess deaths and COVID19 deaths are very different metrics.
Death for a single cause stats suffer from "competing risk events": we will all die only once and we can only be classified as having died due to one underlying cause (slight simplification).
Excess deaths are about all cause mortality, total deaths that would not "normally" have occurred had COVID19 and its impacts *not* [edit] been around (e.g. acute deaths due to sub-normal medical care/availability, longterm deaths due to disruption to medical services).
Bear in mind, some deaths were probably "avoided" during COVID, e.g. road traffic deaths would have been lower during the (March/April) lockdown.
You can continue to do unlimited exercise alone, or in an outdoor public place in groups up to 6.
Travelling into or out of a Tier 3 alert level area
Avoid travelling outside your area, including for overnight stays, other than where necessary, such as:
for work
for education
to access voluntary, charitable or youth services
because of caring responsibilities
for moving home
to visit your support bubble
for a medical appointment or treatment
So my grandson who lives in NY has been off school because someone connected to a class mate tested positive. So he came to stay with us in Tier 3 because my daughter had to work( Building Society) son in law in army is having to stay in camp because he’s no transport to get too and from camp to home. We will have him again next week then on Friday I will take him back to NY via Barnard Castle pick daughter up and drive back via Durham in to Tier 3 so she can pick up husbands new car. Then she will drive back via Barnard Castle to another bit of NY to pick him up, then go home via Durham.No, I think you're fine :smirk:
Are we breaking many rules. :-\
Yup >> https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i
Anyway the IG post has nudged me to post.
Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite. Now it’s more important than manners - but only twice in the last 6 months has someone asked me if it’s ok to join.
That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).
Please ask - and maybe when you ask also say “if not it’s no problem I fully understand” etc...
I think different people have different perceptions about what safe distance means - and I’d like people to be appreciative of that. And if someone is uncomfortable having lots of people around then that’s just as valid a feeling as someone who isn’t.
Though I think the metaphor to reserving a sport route doesn’t quite hold for bouldering. The nature of working a problem to a route had a very different rhythm (from what I remember about climbing with a rope!)
There’s quite a few problems I’ve worked where the landing / patio really only works for one or two people - and of someone is there and I want to go on it I’ll go somewhere else for a while. Or maybe ask if they can text me when they are off.
Yup >> https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i
That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).
On routes I'd typically expect to ask, and expect to be told it's ok to also climb. But beyond a certain busyness I'd find something else to try and would expect others to stop joining the queue. E.g. if there were 4/5 people on a route and someone else wanted to join I'd think they were being both stupid, and a dick.
P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.
P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.
Yup >> https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i (https://www.instagram.com/p/CIgd69nJHRD/?igshid=1woqiposodj9i)
That’s a shame - and it’s not that people are bad - just don’t realise it can make others uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve just upped sticks and moved on - and also had people waiting for me to go when I’m close (like in the IG post). (Nick - that’s not you btw!).
TBH, I felt a bit guilty hanging around and retrospectively felt I should have just gone to try something else. I would have felt doubly guilty if Dolly hadn't have got the tick. I actually think I would have left if I hadn't of known you as stayed for a "socially distanced chat".
P.S. These conversations remind me why the "growing our sport" brigade can do one.
Fuckin mental. If you want to grow things get an allotment or a viagra prescription. We live on a tiny ridiculously congested island with a population bigger than Canada and Australia combined and some conts want to cram even more of the fuckers onto our mostly tiny crags to fuck them even more and make the whole experience joyless and tormenting.
The Peak District has been over run and people are unable to think clearly about nature and others when they want to climb. It almost seems like people feel they have a right. No space to park, fuck it I’ll leave my car in the middle of the road. Someone projecting the climb I want to try, no worries 10 of us will get on it too. Wet rock, apply chalk 🤦🏻♂️. I’ve been saying for years that walls should run courses to teach outdoor etiquette to new climbers.
I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.
Even before Covid I used to ask people if they minded if I joined them under a block/problem... just seemed polite.
I'm quite the opposite, I wouldn't even try to join in with anyone currently (I ask how long they think they might be and plan to return) and even If I wanted to climb in the same area I would check they were happy with that.
And I generally wouldn't be happy letting anyone join in with me, how you approach and broach the subject will help massively though.
Fortunately I'm ony out midweek but even that is pretty busy recently, it's pretty soul destroying some of the behaviour out there at the moment, from "parking" to massive groups and the lack of respect some people have for one another.
I agree with spidermonkey here. I generally always ask if it’s okay to join in but I would also be pretty taken aback if someone said no. I mostly think it’s about being reasonable: if you aren’t comfortable with people then definitely don’t go to a busy crag at the weekend. I also don’t believe that by putting pads underneath something or a rope up something that you can reserve that route/Boulder for yourself. I don’t feel (personally) that Covid has changed that.For me, covid does change things because everybody has such different risk profiles. It doesn't give people the right to reserve a boulder but I think everyone has a duty to respect that not everybody is in a position to have an equal acceptance of risk, even outdoors.
the only solution is reopening all the entertainment venues and chainstraunts now I fully appreciate the role they perform in keeping other people away from places I like to be
Truth. Although if the genie is out the bottle now and people continue to like being outside more than they did before we're all fucked!
I think the recent posts on sharing/not sharing just highlight how unequal the exposure risk to covid is. It’s very apparent when you look at the risk some people have no choice to be exposed to.
Afaik many people posting here work mainly or entirely from home. I do, 95% since March. I’m lucky.
Person A, working mainly from home, sat under boulder. Person B, turns up. They don’t work from home. To earn money and keep their job they have to a encounter lot of others on a daily basis - on a scale of one or two others, to being crammed with many others in confined indoor spaces with poor ventilation. Forget ‘covid-safe’ it’s a workplace myth and just box ticking to make managers feel like they’ve done something positive. ‘Covid safe’ is a bit like saying ‘flu-safe’ - it isn’t and can’t be.
Person A is a bit miffed that on their time off from home-working when they go outdoors bouldering other people don’t respect not sharing the boulder problem they’re on.
Politeness is important to grease society, but I think person A needs some perspective.
... I think person A needs some perspective.
Politeness is important to grease society
I think this is where the getting some perspective comes in - people who spend their days having to share offices, canteens or other indoor spaces with many others, at considerably more risk than home workers, will understandably find the whole outdoor bouldering sharing/not sharing scene slightly absurd. But yes understanding *is* important, that's why I saidQuotePoliteness is important to grease society
The office workers behaviour might really upset and scare a timid homeworker. The way you frame this implies you think the home worker should just get a grip.
Maybe you don’t mean this, but it’s how I read your posts and it’s a position that’s wrong from both a statistical and a human point of view.
Outdoor transmission remains low risk through aerosol and indirect contact routes, but face- to-face exposure (e.g. ≤2m for a prolonged period) should still be considered a potential risk for transmission via respiratory droplets.
For the armchair outside mixing is fine posters - there are famous examples of outdoor superspreader events. (White house rose garden - 25 cases associated with it)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_COVID-19_outbreak
Now two strangers sitting apart underneath a lump of blustery rock isn’t the same. But this is an outside event where people sat next to each other that led to considerable transmission.
Whilst on this thread I’ve heard of several examples of people unhappy/uncomfortable with people/groups joining them and have left - I’ve not heard of any examples of ‘Boulder hogging’. As C Widdy said - reducing transmission is all about reducing contacts. Perhaps those willing to walk away - or say something if they are uncomfortable should be applauded rather than chided.
For the armchair outside mixing is fine posters - there are famous examples of outdoor superspreader events. (White house rose garden - 25 cases associated with it)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_COVID-19_outbreak
Now two strangers sitting apart underneath a lump of blustery rock isn’t the same. But this is an outside event where people sat next to each other that led to considerable transmission.
Whilst on this thread I’ve heard of several examples of people unhappy/uncomfortable with people/groups joining them and have left - I’ve not heard of any examples of ‘Boulder hogging’. As C Widdy said - reducing transmission is all about reducing contacts. Perhaps those willing to walk away - or say something if they are uncomfortable should be applauded rather than chided.
Similar to what OMM said. I'd be interested to hear about transmission events that were comparable with socially distanced bouldering.
When we redesigned the vent for the wall, we went through the various incident investigations available and the recommendations very thoroughly,
It really doesn’t take very much air flow to massively reduce chances of infection.
When we redesigned the vent for the wall, we went through the various incident investigations available and the recommendations very thoroughly,
It really doesn’t take very much air flow to massively reduce chances of infection.
Matt, this is a very thoughtful answer, but also very focused on aerosol transmission. I think you'd be *very* unlucky to get infected outdoors via aerosols or through surface transmission.
The risk, low as it is, will be from droplets; the larger droplets are much less affected by airflow and your risk from this mode outdoors is not much reduced from indoors.
Thenumerical modellinghand-waving done to date come up with figures like 1 cough within 2m = 30 minutes of conversation at 2m in terms of risk.
Similar to what OMM said. I'd be interested to hear about transmission events that were comparable with socially distanced bouldering.
If you are really interested Will, you can read a long review of it here - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.04.20188417v2.full.pdf
As always with these things the evidence is patchy, inconsistent and difficult to interpret as there are many confounding factors. Did the study take place before social distancing restrictions were in place? How effective is contact tracing outdoors when most interactions are with people you would fail to trace later?
But it basically says outdoor transmission is less likely, but far from impossible.
e.g
- in a study in Japan before SD was implemented, 10% of cases traced were from outdoor transmission :o
- but a similar study of 7000 cases in China found only 1 transmission event was outdoors, following a conversation :beer2:
The biggest study of over 20,000 cases finds around 5% rise from outdoor transmission, or "transmission from events with an outdoor element". 2% arise from purely outdoor transmission.
So it's definitely small, but non-zero. If your only contact with others each week was climbing at the crag you'd be damn unlucky to catch covid, but a damn fool to give your gran a kiss and a hug because you think you "can't" have caught it.
Most of the Peak is now in T4 it would appear. Does this mean you shouldn’t or cannot travel into there for leisure?
Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.
Should not must as far as I can see, but I think I'm fairly likely to take my chances as things stand. This winter is going to be grim enough as it is without the odd day outside. I wouldn't judge anyone else doing likewise.
..
I'm basically over the governments advice anyway and am planning on being as sensible as I can whilst also not going mad. National measures or nothing as far as I'm concerned; the Tiers system is an undiluted failure.
A fb post from Coniston MR suggested otherwise - that whilst travel for excercise was allowed in lockdown1 that wasn’t the case now (from T4 areas etc..). Not stirring - I think by now most climbers can make sensible decisions - but wondered if there were a legal difference we’ve missed.
Is Wales the same rules/legal platform as England, police sending people home and/or fining them:
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-visitors-turned-away-from-brecon-beacons-after-hundreds-of-vehicles-arrive-12175315
Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc.
Just edited my post above..
Yes the Wales rule is exercise must start and finish at home. It's enforceable, not just guidance.
Lots of people are breaking that rule by driving into the hills to exercise. I went out round Snowdonia today to check on winter climbing connies (excellent) and the police were very visible in the Pass and Ogwen, stopping motorists. I'd expect some leeway for 'locals' and less leeway if you've driven from Manchester etc. Didn't get stopped so don't know how strictly they're enforcing the rules. I suspect the police will be asked to turn the screw and set some examples over the next two weeks.
I was told that there hasn't been a single proven case of transmission in the outdoors, although I haven't trawled the literature to see if its true.
OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.
OTOH Meadowhall was full, one in one out yesterday, so in the bigger picture whatever outdoor folk do is pissing in the wind without shops, schools and workplaces shut.
For Sheff residents it would appear that the entire Burbage valley is in S Yorkshire and hence still Tier 3. As such driving from the city to climb there would still seem to be entirely reasonable, especially if you have a Lancia Delta Integrale.Burbage Valley is, but in a lot of cases the road isn’t. Ringinglow Road is in Derbyshire beyond the cattle grid (if the accuracy of the OS map is to be believed), so you’d have to park there and walk over the top if you were following rules to the letter. Surprise View car park is in Sheffield, but the road isn’t beyond Fox House or Toad’s Mouth (or not entirely anyway). Let’s hope the police don’t decide to enforce it that way.
Re legality of this. The law on traveling away from your home for residents of Tier 4 is the same as the most recent lockdown, but the guidance is significantly stricter. It doesn't even just say not to leave your tier 4 area, it says not to leave your village, town or part of a city. It's fairly obvious that excludes the Peak for most people (Hathersage residents might be ok). Guidance like that never existed before.
The reason it could be important is in how the law is interpreted. Within the law, your travel away from home to take exercise or do recreation in an outdoor space has to be "reasonably necessary". In the context of the tier 4 guidance, it seems far more likely to me now that a policeman (who in practice will be making the decision for you) or theoretically a court, would judge a 45 minute drive in to the peak to be unreasonable.
Would be interested in comments from any of the lawyers...
None of the above affects someone living in a Tier 3 area from travelling to a Tier 4 area for exercise - there is nothing in the legislation to prevent that (because the legal bit all stems from the requirement to stay at home) although it is advised against in the guidance
It’s infuriating that guidance and rules for the general public needs legal interpretation
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall. The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:
- outdoor recreation or exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your Tier 4 area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
Travelling to a Tier 4 area from a Tier 1, 2 or 3 area
You should not travel into a Tier 4 area from another part of the UK, other than for reasons such as:
travel to work where you cannot work from home
travel to education and for caring responsibilities
to visit (including staying overnight with) those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
to attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
I'm not remotely convinced the risk of transmission between random hillwalkers justifies these restrictions. However the reality I see out and about is that people are desperate to socialise and quite happy to bend the rules, and even without car sharing there is plenty going on in the great outdoors that could cause transmission. If that is the reason for the restrictions they should state that clearly and enforce breaches though.
Mrs B has been reading it out, it says you can exercise but should be limited to once a day and you should not travel outside your local area...........however that is defined.
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
You should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
is that the Anston in Rotherham?QuoteYou should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
Sheffield postcode but I see your point :-\80% of the county of Cornwall has a Plymouth post code. Plymouth isn’t even in Cornwall.
Don’t try and bring logic into this.If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.
It's a tricky one, I did check it on the Gov website last week to confirm if it was still Tier 3 (it was) and have been to Roche today. But it is 17 miles away...
As Chris say, having a maximum radius would be good to work with
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
I'm which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.
i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
It's a tricky one, I did check it on the Gov website last week to confirm if it was still Tier 3 (it was) and have been to Roche today. But it is 17 miles away...
As Chris say, having a maximum radius would be good to work with
Ironically I have less concerns going to Stanage now under it being 'local' than I would have done when it involved travelling from a Tier 3 into a Tier 4 area.
Under Tier 3, Stanage was off limits but Meadowhall was open. Go figure.
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.
That logic doesn't take into account people living on or close to the edge of the city.If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
Key part there is "driving...past". I.e. in your car, not stopping for a sarnie in the local cafe (mainly because you can't now), etc., without being anywhere near anyone else, meaning transmission risk is zero. Which to me makes the "local" and once per day restriction completely disproportionate and unnecessary.
I'm not going to argue whether the guidance makes sense or not or whether you want to follow it. I've already had that argument with myself about whether I should ignore the travel restriction guidance to go out bouldering on my own (or rather, with my 3 year old) for exactly those reasons - I don't stop, I don't meet people, I don't go in places etc etc. I don't need to have it with anyone else ;)
My point was only that I couldn't see any way that it was actually following the guidance i.e approaching it with the mindset that you're ignoring the guidance for reasons xyz rather than that what you're doing is in line with it
The detailed advice:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/949536/NationalLockdownGuidance.pdf
● outdoor exercise. This should be done locally wherever
possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area
The detailed advice:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/949536/NationalLockdownGuidance.pdf
surely if you're in sheffield then using the 'stay local to your area guidance' then 'all the Eastern edges' from sheff is taking the piss.
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.
i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
surely if you're in sheffield then using the 'stay local to your area guidance' then 'all the Eastern edges' from sheff is taking the piss.
Depends how you define Easternn edges? Stanage to chatsworth for me, southern areas a separate group. I'd try to stick to Burbages being closest but it's always rammed recently whereas the plantation and parking (£) can be deserted. So what's best.
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.
i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.
(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)
I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.
i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.
(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)
I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.
If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.
The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?
I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.
As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.
As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.
I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.
i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.
(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)
I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.
If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.
The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?
I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.
As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.
As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.
I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....
The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live." That ambiguity has been removed.
For Sheffielders I would view Eastern Edges, Rivelin, Wharncliffe and Anston as local. Anything else would be stretching the definition.
I'm not going to claim to be familiar with all of them, but Google tells me it's a 20min drive from central Sheffield to stanage, which seems rather difficult to square with:
"If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live."
If a villager is advised to stay within their village and you're advised to stay in your own part of a town or city, then driving out of the city and potentially past several other villages is maybe not quite what I'd have assumed they have in mind?
In which case the Government should make the guidance crystal clear and not open to interpretation.
i.e. Stipulate a maximum radius you can travel within from your home address
It says to stay in your local village, town or part of a city Chris. Much as I hate to say it, I think the guidance now is clearer than it has ever been. It definitely rules out climbing unless you have somewhere in the boundary of the local part of a city or the town you live in. That doesn't really allow anyone in a city to drive in to their local countryside. (Edit to add, it also says explicitly in the exercise guidance to minimise the time you spend away from home.)
These are the rules as they were in March but written down rather than assumed. With the guidance being so clear, it seems very likely that a policeman would consider driving for exercise to be outside the bounds of what is considered a reasonable excuse under the law. Note that outdoor recreation is also stopped - so you aren't allowed to be sitting around outside while having a rest between attempts. It's exercise only.
(The guidance even says you can still get an MOT, but only if you are someone who has a legal reason to drive your car. Since everyone has a legal right to exercise, the right to exercise is obviously not now considered a right to drive for it, otherwise that guidance would be superfluous.)
I carried on climbing through all the previous restrictions since May but I'm going to stop now. I totally understand if some people judge the risk of transmission to be negligible and the chance of getting caught to be low enough that for them a trip is worth the risk - but I think they should do so knowing they are almost certainly breaking the law.
If the rules were clear they'd be broad agreement on these pages about whether or not climbing is permitted. There isn't, so the rules are obviously not clear.
The gov.uk website does permit travel to exercise but mentions you should not travel outside your local area. So again, define local?
I think until a legal professional clarifies it any attempt to guess what is or isn't illegal is just that.
As for rest between attempts - you'd basically be limiting exercise to any continuous form of exercise like running or cycling. Bad example but if you used the municipal equipment on the park to do pull ups you'd be limited to one set, the minute you drop off the Feds will sweep in and bust you.
As tomtom said, I'm sure it'll become clear what is and isn't tolerated over the next few days.
I'm off into work now, I'll be interested to see how quiet the roads are.....
The guidance does define local. It says "If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local in the village, town, or part of the city where you live." That ambiguity has been removed.
Outdoor gym equipment is being closed again. I agree there has to be some sense added and if someone needs a quick rest on a park bench that's presumably ok. But I don't see how you can argue it's ok if the majority of time spent outside is actually resting rather than exercising.
Personally I’m (like others) just going to leave it a week and see what police enforcement looks like. I really don’t see any justification for stopping me going bouldering but I would have to drive a distance to do it.
Dave
local outdoor recreation, sport or exercise, walking, cycling, golf, or running that starts and finishes at the same place (which can be up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area) as long as you abide by the rules on meeting other households
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.
I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).
Outdoor exercise should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area, defined as “the village, town, or part of the city where you live”.
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.
I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
If police enforcement is your only reason for not going out then you might as well go out, if we are being honest the chances of being caught are minuscule. This is similar to speeding and lots of other crimes that you can 'get away with', just because you can doesn't mean it is the right thing to be doing.I see what you are saying, but I suspect a lot of people are sick of whipsawing guidance, which veers erratically from the laissez faire, to the draconian. People who have spent months voluntarily avoiding doing loads of permissible, even actively promoted activities in the case of EOTHO, including largely avoiding climbing walls. I.e. risk assessing based on actual risk of transmission, rather than risk of social or legal jeopardy. People who are now asked to forgo practically riskless sanity saving activities. Perhaps you can see why they might balk at being lectured (however well meaningly) to about taking responsibility. And perhaps why they might look around for potential ways to carry on doing riskless sanity saving activities.
I would hope though that at this point most climbers can now see how stretched the NHS is going to be with the rising cases and will take some responsibility by staying home and not travelling during this lockdown. As has been proven by the posts here if some people start to push the rules/guidance it is likely that others will follow...
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).
Nope - that's entirely your presumption.
There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on.
This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...
3. Going to work (banned for most people)
There is perhaps an argument that there more people go out an carry out said riskless sanity saving activies, the more foot and vehical traffic there is, the more normal day to day life then appears and the more our perception of risk drops. Then more people believe it's ok for them to go and carry out their riskless sanity saving activity, which isn't perhaps now quite as safe because lots of people are doing it too (or decide it's not fair that some are out and they aren't and decide to go out too, as evidenced on this thread) and so on.
This isn't to say that I don't agree that the transmission risk in climbing is low and the mental and physical benefits are high. I'm lucky enough to have a crag 2 minutes from home, so may well be out. This is just an argument I've been having with myself that perhaps RSSAs aren't as safe as they appear. But it's a very hypothetical one...
I really can't see that happening, fundamentally because the actual risky activities WRT to Covid transmission are (in no particular order):
1. Visiting family (banned)
2. Going to the pub (banned)
3. Going to work (banned for most people)
4. Kids in school (banned)
5. Going shopping (banned for all but essential stuff)
6. Spending lots of time indoors with people you don't live with (banned(? Can't think of anything that's still allowed...)
7. Large gatherings (banned)
Sure I've missed a few things, but you get the point. Ultimately it means that even if there was some perception of normality, which might lead you to return to normal activities, you can't do any of those normal activities.
That argument also only makes sense if the activity (climbing outside on your own) is transmission risk. Which it isn't. So even if loads of people were doing it, it still wouldn't drive up infection rates.
My suspicion is that they've only put limits on exercise outdoors because it's easy to scapegoat people for it, because it's more visible. For example people getting stuck in the Peak in the snow, or walking up Snowdon; easy to call out, meanwhile people are crammed into shopping centres!
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).
Nope - that's entirely your presumption.
So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.
Quote3. Going to work (banned for most people)
Would like to see some stats on this. I'd be very surprised if 'most people' is anything like 50% of the working population.
The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread
UKC logbooks reveal a few people who either (a) don't care or (b) don't realise people can see what and when they have been climbing....
Presumably you're referring to people who you know to live a long way from whatever it is they've climbed. As far as I can see there is no reason not to go climbing if you can do it in your area (however that might be defined).
Nope - that's entirely your presumption.
So why have a go at them? Climbing is allowed, given certain restrictions.
Hi Will - please don’t assume I’m having a go - im just Im just stating the obvious.
That either they don’t care if people see their logbook updates (which could be that they don’t give a shit - or that they think what they are doing is right - that’s up to them) or they don’t know that people can see the updates. (My op could have had can see after the first don’t care - but it said it after the second don’t see - anyway that’s what I meant!)
The BMC have published some guidance - the link is below - but it really just copy pastes the government guidelines. No real steer at all. Nothing new from what has been discussed earlier in this thread
No new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).
No new legislation had been published when the article was written so there was literally nothing else to go on. I see they have been published in the last hour (I've not yet had chance to read them).
Located here if anyone wants to read:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/made
Or rather that's the amending legislation which needs to be read in conjunction with the previously existing tiers based legislation that came into force in December.
Or, if we are obliquely referring to people travelling from England to N Wales to go bouldering, perhaps they don’t realise it’s against the law.
Which would be a bit dumb of them.
Seriously though, regardless of whether you think your plans fit the guidelines, or if you just choose to ignore them as they are only guidelines, can we agree that posting stuff on social media or your logbooks is just going to be annoying for everyone?
The relative risk of going out climbing makes sense to me as it did in March, but the solidarity argument feels stronger to me this time around, maybe because there's less of it! I was all for going out locally to boulder then (still am), but I feel conflicted about how many are flouting the rules to go into the mountains.
Whether the exercise of essential or not is immaterial. With the exception of, I think, shopping, there is no distinction in this guidance between those activities which are essential or non-essential, only between those which are reasonable and unreasonable.I know.
FWIW Pete in your position I would be getting out climbing.
The line between recreation and exercise is clearly blurry, but given the minimal risk involved it seems fine to me to take a loose definition of exercise.
Funny what you say that you have no sympathy with the transmission argument - it must be a difference in perspective. When I’ve been out at the crag I’ve seen plenty of examples of behaviour that would constitute a transmission risk - e.g groups of 10+ closely packed at the bottom of a single problem for hours.
However I suspect most people who are wavering about climbing or not are not the types who will indulge in such behaviour!
Pete, I know you're in Wales but not in the right place to be allowed to go into the mountains? I have to say, given your posts earlier in the year, the idea you don't approve of others doing so from their door isn't a great look. But you are a committed contrarian, I'll grant you that.
But you are a committed contrarian, I'll grant you that.
Whether the exercise of essential or not is immaterial. With the exception of, I think, shopping, there is no distinction in this guidance between those activities which are essential or non-essential, only between those which are reasonable and unreasonable.
You would really have to have been out on a golf course yourself in the Covid world, though, to see that the sport provides one of the safest environments you could probably find at the moment and also an important outlet from a mental perspective to people of all ages but the older generation in particular.
Let’s not forget that this lockdown is taking place in winter, in Britain. No matter what stance we each take on climbing it’ll be a moot point most of the time because the rock will be wet anyway.
The getting injured side of the argument for not climbing has never really concerned me, as the chance is very low and if you did need hospital help. You are totally separate from the covid areas. The accident side of hospitals isn't under the stress the covid parts are. Although not wanting to get injured is a personal desire.
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.
Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.
Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.
https://www.facebook.com/376472612370010/posts/4203219143028652/
The weather is stopping climbing, not Boris.
I cannot remember the last morning I opened the curtains and thought " yes, what time shall I go climbing"
It's snowing now in leek and white over from last night.
No, do you have a link? Interesting that, given hunting is illegal and protest isn’t.
Not sure about the distinction between Covid safe and unsafe areas in hospital tbh. I think it’s pretty much all hands on deck right now, and will get worse before it gets better.
https://www.facebook.com/376472612370010/posts/4203219143028652/
I was so glad that this related to the hunt sabs and wasn't that link to video of "empty hospital wards" that had been filmed by some of the antimask brigade. In an outpatients department. On a weekend.
Getting back on topic: i bought a microtraxion and a static rope after the first lockdown just incase but i assumed the "meeting one other outside for exercise" meant roped stuff was fair game? ( https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home )
It's certainly felt busier on the roads this time around, but i just put that down to people getting things sorted after a haphazard announcement. Will we reach the same levels of fidelity as we did last march? I'm certainly ready to consider climbing burbage valley or even further afield this time around
You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.
These are actually the new Tier 4 regs for the UK. Bit unclear what's happened to be honest and I'm trying to juggle reading the regs, doing some work and home schooling.
You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.
Fishing? clearly recreation, but not really exercise?
Under travel it says:
● outdoor exercise.This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
To me that suggests that Eastern Edges are the type of open space they are thinking of
The amendment file says at the bottom of p4:
for the words in part 3 (tier 4 area) substitute:
“Every area of England, apart from the territorial waters adjacent to England and the
airspace above England and those territorial waters, is within the Tier 4 area.”.
I'm not in any way a lawyer but from an uninformed standpoint that might be the key which allows this UK wide legislation to be relevant only for England?
You might be able to come up with extremes that sort of only fall into one category (a picnic), but the vast majority are both.
Fishing? clearly recreation, but not really exercise?
Statement from the Angling Trust on the national lockdown rules
UPDATE – January 5, 2021
Whilst the regulations have not yet been published we have been informed this evening by the Cabinet Office that the Government have taken the decision that fishing in England will not be permitted during this national lockdown period. Whilst this is disappointing news I would ask anglers, fisheries and clubs to respect these rules and the reason they have been put in place; to help save lives and support the NHS.
Individuals should not go fishing from midnight tonight (5th January) and clubs and fisheries should close their waters to anglers.
The new amendment regs have been been published but as yet there is no official consolidated version online (although they are due today). After a quick look though them it looks as though there is no longer an exception to the restriction on leaving your home for the purposes of outdoor recreation. This leaves the exception for reasonably necessary outdoor exercise. So we're back to the original question from the first lockdown of whether climbing is "reasonably necessary exercise."
From reading the regulations I'm not sure the outdoor exercise must be 'reasonably necessary'; rather it is 'reasonably necessary...' 'to take exercise outside'. To me it seems this exercise (rock climbing is my personal preference) can be done alone, or with one other person; there is no limit to the time one can be out exercising, or how many forms of exercise one does when outdoors; and travel to exercise (any distance but presumably only within England) is not restricted. I'm not a lawyer, so please no one trust me here it's just my layman's opinion on reading it. I'm keen to hear Ru's thoughts on this.
As with the first lockdown, I think the 'guidance' doesn't appear to be fully reflected in the actual legislation. I'm also sure anyone who doesn't 'stay at home' runs the risk of getting slapped with a £200 fine from a copper regardless of what's lawful.
Is the BMC covid group still active Ru? I've not had any emails since Nov.
Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.
Where have you heard fishing is allowed. Not according to official lines yesterday.
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/
What a good clear set of guidelines. I'm tempted to do a find replace for fishing with climbing - and send it to the BMC.
I was hoping golf was in as well so we could have done that. Maybe changes for that as well, seems odd to let fishing and not golf.
Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.
Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/
What a good clear set of guidelines.
https://anglingtrust.net/covid-19/
What a good clear set of guidelines.
Except that they completely sidestep what is meant by “local” which is what most of the debate amongst climbers is about.
I see the mental health benefits of sitting by the sea and watching waves (bears a strong resemblance to my climbing) but let’s not call it exercise. The Angling Trust must have friends in the right places.
2. Mandatory call-out charge for MRT rescues, that is also doubled if you're rescued outside your local area - again discourages travel, encourages more cautious outings, self-reliance, etc. Charge can be split between MRT donation and local hospital trust.
Sorry to divert from fishing, and despite not usually joining in this thread, I've got this nagging idea to share.
Travelling to exercise outdoors. What's the main problem?? Less the actual exercising outdoors alone, and more the following:
Travelling is not actually against the law, it's just a guideline, so it's not possible to legally enforce it in any way.
Whoever wrote that article clearly doesn't know the difference. Thunderflashes are basically a big crackers used in SA military training exercises, stun grenades are a different game altogether. We used to put leftover thunderflashes under helmets to see how high we could make them go.
While on heads?
Travelling is not actually against the law, it's just a guideline, so it's not possible to legally enforce it in any way.
While on heads?
lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.
Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.
While on heads?
lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.
Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.
While on heads?
lol, no on the ground! Challenge was to catch the helmet rugby ball style without losing teeth, breaking nose, or taking it in the nuts.
Instructors woke us in bungalows once. Probably partial cause of my tinnitus, although I expect 155mm guns did more damage.
[wor story]
I was once on a course with an SAS sniper whose face and ears were badly burnt after someone fired a Shamoolie (illumination flare to non-mil) at him during an exercise. Thing hit him and set fire to his Ghillie suit, and he couldn't get the suit off..
[/wor story]
Perhaps the police should release electric eels to stun the surfers.
Landmines for skiiers.
Garotte wires for mtn bikers.
Punji pits for hillwalkers.
'mon the :fishing: :fishing: :fishing:
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.
The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.
Derbyshire Police said: "It is up to each individual officer on a case-by-case basis to decide what is reasonable as the legislation does not proscribe a distance."
Thank god all the crags are handily located in towns, villages or parts of cities.
Nobody I know lives closer to Bell Hagg than you Cheque, I look forward to a schooling from the Crosspool showpony!
Similarly, I kind of now fancy going out into the peak to get into an argument with the police. Which is dumb since I'm only fingerboarding to rehab an injured finger at the moment anyway.
Similarly, I kind of now fancy going out into the peak to get into an argument with the police.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.
The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.
They asked him where he had come from and when he said Sheffield they said he was now in Derbyshire and they could therefore give him a fine.
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?
The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
And also factually wrong as the county boundary runs along the road and they were the right side of it!
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?
The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
I hope these ladies pointed out the irony of receiving a fine for defining 5 miles as local, by someone calling mint tea a picnic.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.
The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the crag:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814
The police force involved, Derbyshire Police, said driving for exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.
The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.
Came here to post this. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour.
Particularly concerning that the College of Policing are saying it's up to individual officer's discretion, when they have no legal right to do so given there is nothing in the legislation around travel to exercise.QuoteDerbyshire Police said: "It is up to each individual officer on a case-by-case basis to decide what is reasonable as the legislation does not proscribe a distance."
In fact that's wrong. The legislation doesn't even say you can't travel for exercise, let alone prescribe an allowed distance! It says exercise is a reasonable excuse to be outside your home, simple as that.
You can't fine people or otherwise sanction them for doing things that are "not in the spirit" of the lockdown!!
Crikey that's pushed my buttons :lol:
Surprised the two women were not just warned and then sent home. Though I guess if you wanted to ‘make an example’ for publicity it’s worked (in a very heavy handed way). I can see why they wanted to go somewhere for a walk and chat together - but that could easily be done closer to home surely?
The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
Is it a case of any publicity is good? So far I've seen nothing but outrage / condemning the police on this, and personally it makes me more determined to head out climbing tomorrow as I had intended.
I'm from the Hope Valley originally and have a lot of friends and family that still live out there. There is now a growing amount of Pitchfork wielding happening on Facebook. The intolerance kind of pumps my nads a bit, but I can also see both sides of the coin. It has been truly mental out in the peak this year and I can imagine locals have just had enough, and now they have the excuse of a proper lockdown, perhaps the local plod are attempting to reduce the number of 'townies' coming out with a few public shows of authority.
Derbyshire/The Peak does suffer from being bounded on all sides by huge conurbations.
Never new that S11 runs all the way out to toadsmouth/fox house and burgage bridges, so the police are going to get a hard time from me if I get stopped at Burgage North!.
Still think we as a collective group should keep a low profile. Big teams on Westside and Remergence for example. are going to attract unwanted attention.
The cup of tea picnic part of the story is just nuts. Though we only have one side of the story...
I hope these ladies pointed out the irony of receiving a fine for defining 5 miles as local, by someone calling mint tea a picnic.
Are you gentlemen suggesting Derbyshire Police might be a few sandwiches short of a picnic?
The Peak Effect this year has been interesting I agree. To me it has been a combination of closed pubs/other facilities which would have taken the strain off, but also speaks to a massive population of people who want access to the outdoors. The locals are going to have to get used to it.
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.
1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—
(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;
2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—
(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,
The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name :wall:.
I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed. When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut. There's been feck all else for folks to do. Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.
I think 'more folks wanting to access the outdoors' is more a by-product of all the normal haunts being closed. When you think all gyms, pubs, restaurants, shops, cinemas, meadowhall, football matches, rugby matches, ice hockey, basket ball etc etc etc are all shut. There's been feck all else for folks to do. Just football alone must account for hundreds of thousands of extra folks twiddling their thumbs of a Saturday.
The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name :wall:.
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.
No. It doesn't.
You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3AQuote1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—
(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;Quote2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—
(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,
It says nothing about travel.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
How do you feel about the Police at a relatively high level suggesting they don't overly care if they're outside of the legislation if it has a positive effect?
The resentment and entitlement expressed by a vocal portion of Peak residents has been one of the ugliest spectacles in a year full of ugly spectacles. Living in a National Park is not a recipe for glorious isolation, the clue's in the name :wall:.
I keep harping on about this but it was pretty eye opening to see a "access for residents only" set of signage across the carriageway in Barley, one of the main villages for accessing Pendle Hill, persisting through the first lockdown. There were also "go home" signs across several PRoW. These too were ignored until the restrictions were lifted.
I did get on my high horse and query this and the answer I got, and this isn't paraphrased was "people weren't social distancing".
It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?
Sam: I agree, but also think that a lot of folk may have realised that they actually enjoy a nice walk and they may well be back even when the pubs reopen. My point was more that numbers are not going to drop back to normal I don't think- they will drop but will remain high- which some might say is NP's fulfilling their purpose.
It's shit. But there's a bigger problem at the minute, would you not agree?
I'd say that the police deciding that it's for them to decide what the law should be rather than enforcing the law as it is would be liable to be a bigger problem than bouldering on quiet bits of grit 10min drive from home.
They asked him where he had come from and when he said Sheffield they said he was now in Derbyshire and they could therefore give him a fine.
This is arbitrary and unlawful.
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.
No. It doesn't.
You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3AQuote1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—
(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;Quote2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—
(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,
It says nothing about travel.
For clarity, I meant the guidance.
If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
Plenty of speculation that the guidance contains a mixture of must and should. Get it tested in court. But then we're back in the realms of missing the point of why the lockdown is happening. Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.
If I'm having to pick a side (both very miserable realities) then I need to be able to look in the face of my missus and her colleagues.
It also says don't travel unless necessary. So we're back to what's nearest? Surprise View car park or Hillsborough Park.
No. It doesn't.
You, like the police in this example, have confused the guidance with the law. The legislation says:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3AQuote1.—(1) No person who lives in the Tier 4 area may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)—
(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in paragraph 2 applies;Quote2.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in paragraph 1.
Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—
(c)to take exercise outside—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or
(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or
(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,
It says nothing about travel.
For clarity, I meant the guidance.
If I was getting my nose out of joint because I'd driven up to Moscar for "exercise" when really, I could exercise nearer home and I'd been pulled for it, me personally, I'd be saying fair cop.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
I mean that's just it, I 100% think that it is an unprecedented attack on our civil liberties. The combined issues being:
1. Guidance that make no logical sense, provide no actual suppression of virus transmission, and is therefore entirely unjustifiable, yet is put in place anyway.
2. As others have said, the police thinking they can make up the law themselves as they go.
Simply saying "oh but the virus" does not excuse these things.
I have every respect for your partner and the difficult time she and everyone else in the NHS is facing. I comply with every other bit of guidance. But since I can guarantee that not a single person will be in hospital with Covid having caught it outside, >2m away from anyone else, I am angry that the precious liberty to go for a walk or to climb is being challenged and I think that's an entirely justifiable concern.
This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?
This was done to death earlier in the pandemic.
Interesting the angles people are viewing this from. If it was an unprecedented attack on civil liberties I'd be all over. Shouldn't need the threat of Police giving you a bollocking/fine to maybe think why the guidance is there. NHS: potentially over-whelmed. I've got skin in the game which makes me sensitive to it.
I don't see a lack of UKBers "think[ing] why the guidance is there." I see people tired of being told they can't do things with infinitesimally small transmission risks, to paper over the cracks of real measures having been left too late, again. I see people wondering why their well being must be sacrificed, again, so we can have idiotic shit like Eat Out to Help Out and Boris's Xmas party. Having to do things which make no material difference got very old in lockdown one, and here we are in lockdown three being told to do exactly the same, as if nothing was learned in between. And this isn't going away any time soon, most on here are unlikely to get a jab this side of autumn. Are we to meekly accept another year written off, because speaking up for a more pragmatic approach on outdoor activities is somehow immoral?
Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.
It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.
Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.I don't think this stands up to scrutiny. Transmission is what means the next few weeks will be a shitshow. I think I know what you meant to write is probably something like "Transmission, largely, isn't the problem with going bouldering at burbage right now"? But I'm not convinced that safe bouldering (lowball, non-sketchy landing, avoid sideways heels if you have dodgy knees like me) is really more dangerous than a morning walk and an afternoon lifting bits of metal and hanging off bits of wood in my attic.
Individuals are easy targets of course. It’ll be interesting to see if the Police make a move on the takeaway honeypots dotted around. In the park by me the cafe has erected two marquees (closed on two sides) for the old dears to sit in. Now that the schools are ‘closed’ the park is rammed with kids in the afternoons going for ice creams. Everyone mixing.
It’s hard to see this and not feel that driving 5 miles to access the countryside isn’t a ‘problem’.
We went for a walk through Endcliffe park the other week and I felt quite uncomfortable round the whole busier section, esp the bit near the cafe with a similar setup. Anyone who thinks that this is safer than driving out to Curbar, Burbage, or even Tideswell region to boulder or walk on your own has probably smoked a lot of crack.Transmission, largely, isn't the problem now.I don't think this stands up to scrutiny. Transmission is what means the next few weeks will be a shitshow. I think I know what you meant to write is probably something like "Transmission, largely, isn't the problem with going bouldering at burbage right now"? But I'm not convinced that safe bouldering (lowball, non-sketchy landing, avoid sideways heels if you have dodgy knees like me) is really more dangerous than a morning walk and an afternoon lifting bits of metal and hanging off bits of wood in my attic.
Anyway, we're going in circles and it's all arbitrary to me because I'm broken so won't be going climbing until Feb. But in Feb I'll go climbing somewhere safe to my finger, even if it's 5min more drive, to minimise the risk of close-contact physio interaction!
P.S. What Bonjoy said
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.
The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March.
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
Imagine if some science types had written a report about the new variant, say, just before Christmas.. making it obvious that relaxation was dumb and we should be in lockdown... Oh wait... :slap: At what point do you stop being morally obligated to clean up other people's mess?
Google maps works reasonably well for showing county borders.
Eg, enter "south Yorkshire" and it shows the border clearly.
Same for post code areas.
Just in case you have to show your reasons for claiming to be local
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.
The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March.
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.
The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March.
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
I'm going to keep saying it again, and again, and again; just because all of the above is true, DOES NOT mean activities that don't make it worse should stop. Especially where those activities will help people get through what is likely to he a very long period with some remaining sanity.
Reckon I’m probably more likely to end up in A&E if I attempted to run rather than driving 5 mins to go climbing.
Or climb on something that you made in your garage :lol:
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.
There is an argument that THE ONLY potential harm caused by (local and social distanced) bouldering, is the encouragement of other non-stay-at-home behaviour. As such the ideal is to quietly get on with it and not advertise in any way. But how can I put this... It's really really bloody hard to do that when people keep popping up online making egregious statements that demand to be challenged. In other words, both 'sides' need to apply the same self discipline and keep their views to themselves for this ideal to have any chance of success.
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.
There is an argument that THE ONLY potential harm caused by (local and social distanced) bouldering, is the encouragement of other non-stay-at-home behaviour. As such the ideal is to quietly get on with it and not advertise in any way. But how can I put this... It's really really bloody hard to do that when people keep popping up online making egregious statements that demand to be challenged. In other words, both 'sides' need to apply the same self discipline and keep their views to themselves for this ideal to have any chance of success.
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down” in that there is no legal limit on how far to travel and all fines will be reviewed. This according to a thread on Bikeradar.
Apparently Derbyshire police have issued a “ climb down”
Also worth noting the context of local rates of infection. Yorkshire and Humber currently has the lowest in the country and my attitude to recreation will take that into account.
Also worth noting the context of local rates of infection. Yorkshire and Humber currently has the lowest in the country and my attitude to recreation will take that into account.
Things do look very bad in the south-east, but I'm hopeful the timing of the lockdown in this region was not so tragically late.
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.Any increase in transmisibility is academic if you are multiplying by zero.
The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March.
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
The national context being that that rate is one of the lowest in the country, lower than it was here throughout October, and rising more slowly than it was in October, when we were put into Tier 3. I don't recall you popping up then to urge caution?
There is widespread reporting today that the present surge in covid cases, hospitalisations and fatalities are present far worse than the March\April wave - and set to get worse.Any increase in transmisibility is academic if you are multiplying by zero.
The number of deaths at today’s rate (that will increase - but will dip - I know) equates at 500 000 a year. By a disease spread by people being near to other people - that is now 50-70% better at being transmitted than in March.
In this context - I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t literally have a crag within a short distance of their house is going out - or trying to self justify it. As for people climbing in groups - clearly not all from the same household - 🤦♂️
People just don’t seem to get that it’s WORSE than in March/April and some are behaving like it’s October...
Arguments regards ultra low/non zero risk have been done to death already. I won't rehash.
It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.Yes, exactly.
That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.
It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.
That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.
Yep, the new strain is a real concern. However I don't think that's the only thing going on. Current stats are almost the exact opposite of when the tier system was introduced. The stats show the previous higher tier areas and subsequent lockdown-lite was largely successful in bringing down case numbers in those areas to low levels by early Dec. However those areas going into the xmas period off the back of a low-tier/ doing ok period are now in big trouble. For those areas it looks like xmas and the subsequent delay in locking down will be very costly and may well require further escalation. For us in Sheffield this lockdown is early and hard, and off the back of a long period where we were conscious of doing badly in the national context - so I think highly likely to be effective without escalation. But like many I'll be monitoring levels closely and modifying my behaviour and business as appropriate.
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg)
Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg)
Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.
Did you see the German covid stay at home advert Matt? Worth googling - a good idea.
I see the govt has launched a mission fear advertising campaign today....
(https://i.ibb.co/c23WS2V/99392-D0-D-0-FFF-4-D43-8026-A9080347-DACC.jpg);D :clap2:
Sorry.
I’ll get my coat.
Increased need for fuel, perhaps, being the obvious ancillary activity increased beyond your baseline, lockdown, requirement.
If (if) the Fomite transmission hypothesis is borne out, even using pay at pump, increases your risk of either catching or transmitting the virus, significantly.
I saw people I could tell were not local, you could tell same as people in a new pub trying to find the toilet.
The national context being that that rate is one of the lowest in the country, lower than it was here throughout October, and rising more slowly than it was in October, when we were put into Tier 3. I don't recall you popping up then to urge caution?
I think a "print your own permit" system could work.
Submit your claim to be where you plan to go, tick the boxes that you think apply.
Print permit.
Submit report that you are on your way.
Go out.
Show your permit (pdf on your phone will suffice) if asked by any approved enforcement agent. They can check that you are doing only what the permit is for.
Applications will be publicly viewable. Citizen reviewed.
If your logged reason turns out to be based on lies or to be not appropriate, then you may be liable for prosecution and certainly be ridiculed on social media.
Can't see too many problems with this
Think I'll call the app WychHunt or something
does that mean i can go to burbage with his blessing if I don't have a board at home?
does that mean i can go to burbage with his blessing if I don't have a board at home?
Go in peace, my child.
I was walking in a park earlier and saw a family sitting on a bench eating some food. Two PCSOs walked past and each party gave the other a nod of greeting. Nothing was said to the picnicers. But once the two officers were five steps beyond the bench one of them screamed "NOW!". They both span round, simultaneously drawing a pair of Sig P226 sidearms which had been concealed at their hips. In a split second, they'd each got off a couple of rounds, and the heads of 4 members of the family exploded, spreading skull fragments, brains, and blood over the fresh-fallen snow. The only family member left was a young boy, silent, his eyes wide with fear and disbelief. "Go," said the first PCSO, "and tell the people what you saw here today. But wear a mask and do so from a distance of greater than 2 metres".
The first part of that actually happened.
According to the other channel North Yorkshire police have been booking walkers in Horton in Ribblesdale.
I think a "print your own permit" system could work.
Submit your claim to be where you plan to go, tick the boxes that you think apply.
Print permit.
Submit report that you are on your way.
Go out.
Show your permit (pdf on your phone will suffice) if asked by any approved enforcement agent. They can check that you are doing only what the permit is for.
Applications will be publicly viewable. Citizen reviewed.
If your logged reason turns out to be based on lies or to be not appropriate, then you may be liable for prosecution and certainly be ridiculed on social media.
Can't see too many problems with this
Think I'll call the app WychHunt or something
Shit
I've only allowed for three figure numbers
There was a Facebook link which had some great posts from Mr and Mrs Angry of Horton/Settle.According to the other channel North Yorkshire police have been booking walkers in Horton in Ribblesdale.
Excellent news!
Once the criminal justice system is clogged up with angry ramblers, we'll be safe to climb wherever and however we want.
What you're saying is correct Matt, but if you read the post Stu is replying to you'll see I didn't say the risk was zero. I said any number multiplied by zero is zero. My point being that an increase in transmissibilty does not automatically equal a meaningful increase in risk, and the size of the original risk is the determining factor.It’s zero if you’re on your own, which I’m guessing is how Jon normally does things.
That’s why I think the focus on “local” is misjudged regardless of what the guidelines say. Better to be alone and 10 miles from home than packed round remergence 5 miles from home.
Ok Stu, correct me if I’m wrong and view this as a question not a statement.
This is how it has been explained to me (or how I interpreted what was said).
The new variants (more than one) appear to be more infectious, by a significant factor, probably greater than 1.5.
This appears to follow from an improved affinity that reduces the viral load threshold for infection.
This significantly reduces the required exposure times to and (therefore) quantities of, virus required to achieve infection.
This change, brings Fomite transmission, once thought a low risk, back into play.
It’s not that the half life of the virus on a given surface has changed, it appears to decay at the same rate; it’s that the length of time it remains at viable transmission levels is extended in line with it’s reduced infectious load requirement.
Still a lower risk than aerosol of droplet transmission, but no long negligible.
Going climbing, especially alone, is still a very low risk activity.
However, the total risk to be considered is not simply the act of climbing.
The total administrative burden and associated support activities factor into the equation, significantly.
If you drive, that is increasing the total risk. Not, specifically the act of driving, the ancillary activities that are required or become more probable, because you have increased the complexity of the activity.
Increased need for fuel, perhaps, being the obvious ancillary activity increased beyond your baseline, lockdown, requirement.
If (if) the Fomite transmission hypothesis is borne out, even using pay at pump, increases your risk of either catching or transmitting the virus, significantly.
That is, climbing is not a zero risk activity and potentially has a greater than negligible to a lower end of moderate, risk attached to it and significant caution and thought is needed to control that risk.
Somebody, earlier in the thread said something about people saying something so egregious that they felt compelled to counter it. For me, describing the risk as “zero” or “minimising” (failing to acknowledge) a low, but real, risk is to encourage (by omission) people (less thoughtful people) to ignore basic precautions.
Precautions that might well be shown to have been unnecessary in time, but cost little to indulge now and might be, actually, wholly necessary.
Like, seriously, do what you want. Just be careful. For all the various reasons people have mentioned.
Pete have you been up the pass again... :D
(Penypass ranger) "We've had people also from Liverpool and some locals turning up knowing full well what the rules are, but just trying it on.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55604382
Reports this evening from Llanberis MRT of a family SUV from Leicester, possibly a Vauxhall Frontera, destroyed in the Nant Peris area, by hellfire missile fired from Army Air Corp Apache callsign covid-one-nine on night patrol in the Pass and Ogwen valley. Local ground troops with tracker dogs hunted down and eliminated survivors who'd crawled into a culvert behind the Vaynol.
Reports this evening from Llanberis MRT of a family SUV from Leicester, possibly a Vauxhall Frontera, destroyed in the Nant Peris area, by hellfire missile fired from Army Air Corp Apache callsign covid-one-nine on night patrol in the Pass and Ogwen valley. Local ground troops with tracker dogs hunted down and eliminated survivors who'd crawled into a culvert behind the Vaynol.
The Fronteras are quite good a setting fire to themselves anyway!
Just had a message regarding staffs police
2 separate people fined for being in dimmingsdale. Neither saw any police. Taking regs of parked cars. St postcodes also.
They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks
They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??
Apparently he did Ride London 100 miles back in the day. So he can ride a bit.They're refusing to say which obviously means he was driven there.
Plus there's several closer parks
Seems that way
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-cycle-7-miles-downing-street-olympic-park-b827961.html
“The Standard has asked 10 Downing Street whether the PM cycled to the park or was driven there in a vehicle for his bike ride. However, officials declined to clarify“
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??
Quite. What a total waste of everyone's time.
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??
(And wot Matt sed)
Does anybody really care if Bojo went for a bit of a bike ride or not??I'm pleased he got caught doing this, it sets a precedent that might reduce the chances of more kneejerk tightening of travel/excersice regs. It might incentivise the government to look for more fruitful areas to reduce the R value.
(And wot Matt sed)
The reason people care is nothing to do with he did. It is because people are being prosecuted for doing much the same things.
Nope, Boris bike riding is a steaming bag of storm in a teacup bullshit nothing news.
Let’s haul the gov across the coals for their actual mistakes, rather than focussing on crap like this.
Two women out for a walk some miles from home subject to excessively harsh treatment from police say press. Fine torn up and forgotten.
Sorry but this pointless, waste of time crap boils my piss. Surely there are better things to talk about? And to think we mock regional newspapers for their “SEAGULL STEALS CHIPS” headlines. We essentially have national news story of “man rides bike”, Christ...
"The fact we're having to debate whether the Prime Minister broke the rules or not is proof we need more clarity about them isn't it?"
Police were at roaches again yesterday checking where people were from. Staffs police ain't messing around this time againare they fine with folk from leek going up?
Kebab send train!
Sounds like it. Or maybe Shaz gets clearance due to once being crowned the third strongest man in Flash?
There are OK with people from leek visiting. They don't check your address. They count fingers
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/
I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/
I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...
Personally I can’t believe this is where police resources are allocated to!
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/19034313.travellers-london-southampton-sent-home-exercising-portland/
I can't believe people think travelling from London, that is over 100 miles away, to a highly visible area where there is a history of problems with the locals is a good idea at this current time...
Personally I can’t believe this is where police resources are allocated to!
It is infuriating that 10 months in we are still wasting police resources on small numbers of people exercising outdoors in open spaces.
Meanwhile, nothing is being done about the widespread work place abuse of the rules to force people in to unsafe work environments unnecessarily.
Nor is anything being done to stop the abuse of key worker designations that are causing huge numbers of children to be back in school. It looks like cases among children are going to switch back to growth this week.
Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.
The abuse is even going on in some NHS departments. I don't know how widespread this is, but I know someone who works in a non-covid department who was told not to isolate after giving prolonged treatment to a patient who turned out to have covid. They were then told not to get tested after developing symptoms themselves, not to take time off work while awaiting results for that test, were pressured to still come in to work when the test came back positive, and were pressured not to pass on colleague details to Test and Trace.
Minor transgressions outdoors by individuals are irrelevant if nothing is done about these widespread abuses.
Its not an isolated example though. There are countless examples of police patrols heading to outdoor spots preemptively looking to fine people and send people home when they are posing next to no transmission risk.
These checkups should be saved for the offices with the full car parks and the construction sites with cramped meeting rooms etc.
Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.
Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.
The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.
Patel has been very vocal this week about the problems with house parties, which do seem to be a problem, but she's been remarkably silent on the working practices in her own department, or the Foreign Office, or the DfT.
The people I know that work for the home office have been working from home since last March. The other government departments I know about (I regularly work for several) are all doing the same and have been told they will be at home for the foreseeable future.
Surely the problem here is with the people travelling?
If they hadn't driven the police wouldn't have been contacted and the resources allocated.
I want to climb as much as the next person but going outside of your local area is not allowed and we need to deal with that for a bit.
I think it varies a lot between teams.
"Without knowing the exact circumstances – if the people were in a group, were in pairs climbing or were from the same household – then it is not possible to make a judgment about whether this was indeed a breach of legislation."
"There are no limits given in law to how far someone may travel for exercise, however, you are only allowed to exercise with one other person who is not in your household or bubble."
"Our continued advice to people is to follow the government guidance to stay as local as you can - whether for exercise or any other reason – in order to help limit the spread of the coronavirus."
Where can I get a pair of covid breeches?
Could just wear a facemask as a posing pouch....
It seemed like they were asking everyone to go home who didn't live within walking distance. We both said we'd leave and we asked what they considered local (quite politely) and they said that if people didn't leave they would fine them anyway and leave it to individuals to challenge the fine in court.
It wasn't clear if it was the distance or the fact we'd driven there that bothered them. I was too scared of getting fined to ask that though.
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine. Maybe they knew that but wanted to use the threat. Did anyone actually get fined?
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine.
Some fixed penalites get withdrawn though.
Didn't Duma have a speeding FPN withdrawn after he challenged it by letter?
I doubt very much that you'd need to go to court to challenge an unlawful fine.
Technically, you commit the offence and they offer you a fixed penalty to discharge it, which you have the option to accept. If you don't accept it (for instance, because you don't think you have committed an offence), you may get charged and summonsed to court. Not sure most people realise that and I don't know if the police explain it properly. There's no appeal process for a fixed penalty (presumbaly because technically you accept it), but some fixed penalites do get withdrawn. You could, I suppose, judicially review the decision to issue a penalty, but that would be longwinded and potentially expensive.
[edit for clarity]
So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.
So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.
Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.
So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.
Maybe this is the crag police we've always heard about, and they are sending people home if footwork looks shoddy or they are using dodgy beta.
Dab...
I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families.
I was over by Dreamland when all this went down at DWR yesterday so heard a lot of the confrontation. There were probably about 15 people in the DWR-Crucifix area - presumably a number of different groups, including a couple of families.
As much as the policing sounds like a load of cockcheese, this initial situation sounds pretty foolish. With all the grey areas, police discretion, guidelines vs rules etc etc, it's pretty important to avoid drawing attention to oneself, stick to the spirit of avoiding covid transmission, and try to stick to the general, clearer rules about social distancing and groups. 15 people in that area seems like a red rag to a North Rigton bobby.
But people being there from Manchester was a problem.
I agree about keeping a relative low profile and avoiding situations that are likely to provoke issues. However I just don’t understand what the police are doing there in the first place. Surely there resources could be better allocated elsewhere? Unless of course (as someone else pointed out ) Leeds has no real crime at the moment?
Not in law, so you cant be fined for coming from Manchester
If it was a group of 15 people sat around having a picnic and a few beers in the park most on here would be rolling their eyes I reckon, and to the outside observer the DWR scene prob didn’t look much different.
So it seems the police's approach is based on whether they like the look of you.
...the first cop was saying something along the lines of 'I can't go the gym, so why is it okay for you to do this?'
The police enforcement must be consistent, transparent, and lawful. It sounds like the officers present were none of these things.
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....
Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.
If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....
But they already are advisory :shrug:
Absolutely...it was established ages ago with the women fined for peppermint tea walk fiasco that driving for exercise is legal and there's no legal limit on distance.
Looks like the ‘stay local’ for exercise rules are due to stay until 29th March. Thereafter to be advisory....
Sounds like the Almscliff policing wasn’t one of NY polices finest moments - but Manchester >> Almscliff is certainly taking the piss and deserved of a fine imho.
If I’d made such a journey, I’d have no complaints at getting fined.
Astonishingly large number of people happy with the arbitrary interpretation of legislation by police officers.
What is the difference between travelling for 30 mins or 60mins apart from the right to virtue signalling
Needs South Park’s Sadam voice
I can imagine the conversation. What are you doing here? Walking my dog in the countryside officer. You do realise that under the new government mandate that is illegal? As is getting to close to family and friends. I suggest you go home and sit in your house. Enjoy Netflix and UBI and forget your life ever existed.
No human rights abuses there clearly 😬
Looks like Derbyshire police intend to crack down on people travelling to the peak over the next few weeks.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-hand-out-covid-fines-5082254
Presumably trying to send a message as people anticipate the lifting of restrictions?
Of particular interest to some here will be the fines given to 4 from sheffield at longstone edge...
Looks like Derbyshire police intend to crack down on people travelling to the peak over the next few weeks.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-hand-out-covid-fines-5082254
Presumably trying to send a message as people anticipate the lifting of restrictions?
Of particular interest to some here will be the fines given to 4 from sheffield at longstone edge...
Still don't understand how issuing these fines is legitimate policing given distance travelled isn't limited in law. This has even been acknowledged by other forces: https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/police-chief-clarifies-you-might-5069444
Thank you for your enquiry below regarding the term ‘local’. The legislation states that people can legally be outside of their home if they have a ‘reasonable’ excuse, and taking exercise locally is defined as one of those reasons. There is no further definition of ‘local’ provided under the legislation, so the approach NYP are taking in this matter is, it is neither reasonable or essential to travel lengthy distances to take daily exercise, when it can be taken from the doorstep. We do not expect people to be travelling multiple miles in a car to take their exercise in North Yorkshire.
The legislation does state people can travel to access an open space, but this should not be outside their village, town, city or locality. I am fully aware climbers are limited to locality because of your chosen sport, but we are in exceptional times, where we are all being asked to adapt our behaviours and our daily routines. So if a person’s preferred method of exercise would result in a breach of the regulations, they should look to either change that exercise or find an alternative method for the duration of the national lockdown. Hopefully the ‘roadmap’ set out by the government will mean at the end of the month the ‘Stay at Home’ message will be lifted. Until then NYP have a role to play in following the 4 e’s approach of engage, explain, encourage, enforce and applying the legislation fairly and with common sense.
Ultimately, the nation is in lockdown and the reason we are being asked to limit our movement and why the police are enforcing this legislation – to save lives.
I hope this provides a bit of clarity,
I hope this provides a bit of clarity,
Still don't understand how issuing these fines is legitimate policing given distance travelled isn't limited in law. This has even been acknowledged by other forces: https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/police-chief-clarifies-you-might-5069444
Sounds like the group of 4 at Longstone might have been, well, a group of 4. Thus an obvious target.
I'd be interested to hear more information about the pair climbing - where and why were they targetted?