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the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: User deactivated. on September 30, 2020, 11:33:45 am
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I'm looking to enter some DH mountain bike races next year and realise that towards the 2nd half of my runs my fitness/conditioning is letting me down rather than skills. My first thought was that I better go and do some running to get fit, but then likened this to ARCing for a 15m power endurance sport climb (i.e. inefficient). Since everyone here loves training, and google seems to only offer paid training plans or tips on how to run a marathon, I thought i'd see if anyone here knows how to get fit.
Doing more laps on the bike would be an obvious choice but I don't think this works because:
a) maxing out often = mistakes = likely to die (save this for performing)
b) not maxing out = not training fitness hard enough?
c) can't get to long enough DH trails often enough
Supposing a duration of 3 minutes, 100% max effort, using full body but perhaps more legs than anything else, would hill sprints be a good idea? I'm not sure that regular cycling will be any more useful than running as there's very little pedalling involved during a DH race and the max effort comes more from pumping the terrain for speed, hanging on, and muscling the bike around.
Will true max sprints be useful (i.e. < 30 seconds), or longer sprints to suit my intended duration (specificity)? Should I go balls to the wall every time, maxing out heart rate until i'm dizzy and sick, or is it more efficient over time to train below max effort? Please share if you have any reasonably relevant training plans, thanks.
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What do you think/feel is actually fatiguing? Legs, Arms or overall fitness? Or your mind?
I think anything like intervals / fartlek or hill reps (longer hills, not sprints) as well as downhill trail runs would help train the mind.
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I was watching the worlds time trial champs last week and Marcus Backsted was providing the commentary. It was an out and back course with a howling back wind on the return leg and they were hitting 70 to 80 kmh on the flat. Marcus was pointing out that it is easy to work power on uphill efforts but really hard to sustain your power when you are going downhill.
He was suggesting motor pacing for this and trying to pedal fast rather than over gearing it.
If this is not an option you find a half mile straight bit of road which goes slightly down hill. Ride as hard you can try different gear options spinning or grinding. Slowly pedal back between goes.
Also you do efforts going the other way trying remain seated.
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What do you think/feel is actually fatiguing? Legs, Arms or overall fitness? Or your mind?
I think anything like intervals / fartlek or hill reps (longer hills, not sprints) as well as downhill trail runs would help train the mind.
Overall fitness and legs i'd say. As a climber I rarely get arm/hand pump when friends are complaining of it. Looking into fartlek and downhill runs
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As a climber I rarely get arm/hand pump when friends are complaining of it.
Then why do you ever fall off routes?
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I was watching the worlds time trial champs last week and Marcus Backsted was providing the commentary. It was an out and back course with a howling back wind on the return leg and they were hitting 70 to 80 kmh on the flat. Marcus was pointing out that it is easy to work power on uphill efforts but really hard to sustain your power when you are going downhill.
He was suggesting motor pacing for this and trying to pedal fast rather than over gearing it.
If this is not an option you find a half mile straight bit of road which goes slightly down hill. Ride as hard you can try different gear options spinning or grinding. Slowly pedal back between goes.
Also you do efforts going the other way trying remain seated.
That's interesting and hadn't thought of the downhill which would more closely resemble what i'd be doing in a race. Not sure about the sitting down pedalling as the seat is almost never used. As in my OP there's not much pedalling to begin with!
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As a climber I rarely get arm/hand pump when friends are complaining of it.
Then why do you ever fall off routes?
This should say: 'As a climber who has well conditioned forearms compared to a non climber, I rarely get arm/hand pump whilst riding an average DH track where most people would get some/more arm pump'
Sorry I thought that was obvious given the context.
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Last winter I did a series of 3km runs held locally every week. I was running reasonably well, and fit for longer distances, but I put in a lot of interval training on the dreadmill in the gym in the run up to the last race, first basic intervals, then setting the treadmill to the pace I would have to do to beat my pb, and sustaining it for as long as I possibly could. The sessions would leave me nearly puking from the effort, but took 8 sec off my pb. I also did a bit of deadlifting and box jumps / burpees etc, as I know my legs aren't that strong (spindles).
I think webbo's suggestion is good as it's more bike specific, but if you are time and daylight limited, you can do quite a lot with a treadmill and some basic exercises. I'm sure there's tons of programs online and on youtube.
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Have you checked out the Fit4Racing YouTube channel? https://www.youtube.com/c/Fit4Racing/videos.
I am not into training for mountain biking as I only do it for fun however i have noticed these videos come up several times on pinkbike. It offers a good insight into what types of exercises pro DH/EWS riders are doing and maybe you can glean some information to incorporate into your own training.
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This should say: 'As a climber who has well conditioned forearms compared to a non climber, I rarely get arm/hand pump whilst riding an average DH track where most people would get some/more arm pump'
Makes a lot more sense! I imagine that 400m swimmers and boxers would both be relevant to look at and take ideas from, but the broad principles are likely to be the same as anything - building a base of top-end strength and bottom-end endurance, with progression to a more specific length of interval as you get closer to the time..
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Thanks SA Chris, sxrxg and abarro81, I will look into all your suggestions.
I think bottom-end (and all duration) endurance is probably more of a concern than top-end strength. In my early 20's (now 31) I did a lot of powerlifting and as a result, with very little lifting for the last 7 or 8 years, i'm still able to walk up to a bar and pull circa 200kg. I have always been woeful at running though!
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I've recently discovered the masochistic pleasure of timed trap bar deadlifts.
The routine goes as follows: 5 reps every 30" for ten laps. Working with roughly 50% of max I get to the end properly thrashed. When on form I can use 55% and it's brutal, work/rest ratio is basically 1/1 over 4,5 minutes.
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I know a lot of the top boys invest a lot of effort in gaining strength. As you say, this helps them pump the terrain and muscle their bikes around. Starting Strength or similar would be a decent entry point for a lot of novices but it sounds like you know what you're doing here. Then, I think they do quite a lot of interval training on a bike.
Ben Cathro is documenting his attempt to race world cup DH. You might find his training vid useful
https://www.youtube.com/embed/MLwZvwsXrQk
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Unless I'm misunderstanding, the problem with anything running related in this case is specificity. Running training in most of its forms gets you good at one thing - running. I run a fair amount alongside climbing (c.40 miles a week on average) with varied training - hill reps, intervals, etc. and the one thing I notice when I go on a bike is how crap I am. Aerobically I'm fine, not breathing heavily, HR pretty low and yet my legs won't go any faster. I just don't think running fitness carries over well for some reason.
If it was me, I'd be focusing on specific exercises (higher reps, lower weights) and giving running a miss. There might be some aerobic benefit of running for you, but I'm not sure it's most efficient way of improving.
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Legs and cardio:
Short duration interval training on a stationary bike or turbo trainer. I like the suffferfest videos, unfortunately you can't buy and download individual videos anymore you have to take out a subscription. A couple of my favourites are
Revolver. Which is. 8min warm up then 15xsets of 30 secs Flat out followed by 30secs of recovery(easy spinning). by the 16th set I'm starting to black out.
Downward spiral which is descending intervals at 80% RPE for the highs and half that for the for the lows,
8 minute warm up, then 2 mins on, 2 mins off, 1:45 on 1:45 off, 1:30 on 1:30 off, 1:15 on 1:15 off, 1:00 on 1:00 off, 0:45 on 0:45 off, 0:30 on 0:30 off, 0:15 on 0:15 off, 4 minutes easy spinning and then do the intervals again.
Upper Body, I've done a lot of work on my bench press and working up to a ring muscle up over lockdown and the extra push strength has really improved my control of the bike on the long downhills my regular ride has an 8 minute descent!
Lots of stuff on Pinkbike for overall body conditioning.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tags/health-and-fitness/
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You can download almost all the Sufferfest workouts from what used to be ERGdb for free.
I liked the videos first time round but then got quickly bored of them and found the bar chart was sufficient when paired with loud music.
The OP could always do the full frontal test ( :sick: ) and then target whichever area that fits.
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Having given this some thought, do you do any long slow distance work. While I’m sure intervals will help, what is your basIc aerobic fitness like. abarro81 mentioned 400 metre swimmers and their workouts. However all swimmers put in lots of lengths regardless of the distance they compete at.
Even cyclocross riders who compete for an hour do lots of longer endurance work even going to Spain mid season in order to have better weather for longer rides.
I guess given you are only going to be racing for a few minutes, 6 hours riding in the rain might not be your idea of training heaven. :strongbench:
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Buy a motocross bike and rag it around a jump track for a similar time as your DH mtn bike runs.
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When I was training with Gym Jones there were two workouts I learned that I think would be ideal for this.
One’s called the TailPipe but needs two people and a rowing machine as it’s a tag team thing. That might be difficult
30/30 burpees with dumbbells/kettlebells. 30 secs burpees holding the weights; 30 secs “rest” with the dumbells held overhead or resting on the chest. Do four rounds - one min proper rest - then repeat.
There’s a link below (ignore all the 300 hyperbole) from my mate Joel.
They’re both pretty brutal but great for short stretch all over body power endurance and when it’s hard to breath.
https://www.coachmag.co.uk/exercises/1882/gym-jones%25E2%2580%2599s-toughest-workouts (https://www.coachmag.co.uk/exercises/1882/gym-jones%25E2%2580%2599s-toughest-workouts)
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When I was training with Gym Jones
😎😎😎
I was thinking along the same lines, if you don’t want to just train on the bike then hard row/assault bike/ski erg intervals plus some aerobic base stuff on the bike seems like it Would fit the criteria.
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Short duration interval training on a stationary bike or turbo trainer.
:agree: I've got really into Enduro MTB racing in the last few years and putting time in on the turbo has given me a way bigger boost than many hours of road biking or hill sprints. You can safely push to your aerobic limit and beyond in a way you never can on the road or trail, then scrape yourself up and repeat.
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I saw the heading and thought this might be about shagging, went away disappointed....
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says 1-5 minutes, not seconds..
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Unless I'm misunderstanding, the problem with anything running related in this case is specificity. Running training in most of its forms gets you good at one thing - running. ...
There might be some aerobic benefit of running for you, but I'm not sure it's most efficient way of improving.
I'd agree, you're involving different muscle groups with quite a different form of muscle activity. With even a slow steady run you're only putting force through one foot at a time; there is far more eccentric muscle activity to absorb impact etc etc.
A turbo trainer or specific training as webbo suggests would be better.
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If you can find a pump track, laps of that will nuke your terrain pumping strength endurance.
Get yourself a few weekends up at Ft William booked.
Its years since I raced downhill, and I was a lot less fit back then (and had much less understanding of fitness), but from what I remember it's not usually local muscular failure but more the system being overwhelmed, so as other have said a good base of aerobic (long easy runs / enduro mtb day) with a few cycles of real hard workouts like FD's Gym Jones style workouts and Nibs trap lifts etc.
As someone else mentioned, check out Ben Cathro's videos - he's been putting a lot of effort into fitness and training.
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As someone else mentioned, check out Ben Cathro's videos - he's been putting a lot of effort into fitness and training.
Maybe avoid the most recent one of you don't want to be reminded of just how dangerous even trail riding can be...