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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Houdini on January 08, 2008, 08:57:19 am

Title: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 08, 2008, 08:57:19 am
Lets start one for the limpers and joggers out there.


Must be around 4 months since I started with an hour every other day (decreased to every 3rd day - sometimes back up depending on how keen for a run I am & how much the ankles/shins ache).


Does anyone else on here run this much and if so do they have any advice vis-a-vis footwear; has anyone had videoanalysis of themselves running prior to trainer fitting/purchase?  Useful?


Curiously, I'm heavier than ever(!), but can't imagine not running (or ever tabbing again).







Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 08, 2008, 09:15:56 am
when i was younger i ran 3 times aweek as well as climbing,my recollection was i managed this quite successfully for an extended period.however on reading my diary of the time recently i was always having some problem or other.usually achilles/calf problems.every time i try to get back in to it now i usuall do ok for a week or 2 but so as i extend the distance/time i get achilles problems.apparently the older you get the more likely these are if you have a lay off running.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: BenF on January 08, 2008, 09:39:04 am
I've run regularly since my mid-teens and this has included years of running 7-10 times a week (with 3 days per week of running twice a day) and more recently running 3-5 times a week.  I used to run shorter distances but much more frequently, hence my years of getting out twice a day during the week.  When I moved to NZ I changed my work/climb/running pattern and started going out for longer and longer runs in the hills, which led to me running maybe 3 -4 times a week but for 1-3 hours at a time.  Now back in the UK I run for generally 1 hour each time I go out and in the summer try to get in a couple of longer (up to 2 hour) runs each week (I'm lucky in that I can get into the hills easily from work).

To be honest I've never really had any kind of injuries related to running, apart from a fortnight of shin pain about ten years ago, which I remedied by not running for a week, and a month or so of ankle stiffness when I was running a lot in the mountains in NZ.  Since I started taking glucosamine supplements in cycles of 2 months on, 1 month off, I haven't had any stiffness at all. 

As for shoes, apart from occasional (and regrettable) forays into Adidas or New Balance, I've worn Ascics road shoes for fifteen years.  When out in the hills I've always worn Montrail trail shoes.

I've never seen a video of myself running, but am reliably informed by my regular running partners that I run like a "gimp".  This seems to entail running on my toes and balls of my feet, with the heel hardly touching the ground at all.  I strike the ground with the outside of my feet (which can be seen on my road shoes as they wear down on the outside edges months before anywhere else on the sole).  The "Ben Gimp Run" seems to work as I don't suffer from injuries and without meaning to sound like a tosser  :wank:, I'm quite a pretty good runner and can run for hours on end.  However, everyone I know that has tried recently to run like a gimp has ended up with very sore calves.  Don't really know what that proves other than I've always run like that and it works for me.  Maybe it allows my legs to absorb the force through more joints, I don't know.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 08, 2008, 09:47:45 am
I'm not running at the moment (gout/arthritis combo), but did a half marathon last year and ran on roads for an hour around 3 times a week for 5 months. I've had quite a few periods of running regularly in the last 20 years, but don't seem to keep it up for more than 12 months at a time.
I have had a couple of pairs of shoes fitted by proper running shops (Complete Runner in Ilkley 1989 and somewhere just off the Moor in Wad-Town which isn't there any more 1993), but generally just buy what fits best now that I know how they should feel - I wouldn't be as confident if I hadn't had the advice from those shops.
No video of anal cysts though.
I did concentrate on comfortable technique while recovering from back problems http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,8225.msg123902.html#msg123902
I do a fair bit of walking on pavements as part of my job and avoid foot/ankle problems by swapping between different pairs of good shoes. I do the same thing with running shoes - buy a new pair well before the old ones are worn out and mix their use, using the new pair only once out of every 3 or 4 runs to start and changing the ratio until the old pair are replaced by a new new pair and the process starts again. If I get a hint of calf or shin pain, I wear the other pair for a few runs - at least I feel like I'm doing something about it. I used to buy High-Tech Silver Shadows all the time, which were very cheap and did the job when used in this way - I can now afford decent footware; Ascics (spelling?) have been good to me of late.
I am shit at running, but don't get many injuries from it. I save all my injuries for bouldering, which I am also shit at.

I thank you in advance for your careful consideration of this matter and hope that you and your solicitor can find satisfactory alternative accomodation for my cat before the arranged deadline.

Do I win £5?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chappers on January 08, 2008, 10:06:00 am
i run a fair bit. compete for a club etc...
tuesday nights i go interval training on a running track, doing for example mile intervals as fast as possible with a 2 min rest.
then i run on the road too, with a session on thursday nights.
race at the weekends, at the moment in the mid lancs cross country league and road races across the north west.
it is my goal to run 10miles in under 60 mins. (last race i did id ran 61:35).

my main aim with running this year is to be fit enough to not nearly kill myself trying mountain marathons like last year, i have signed up for the saunders already...

my main issue with running seems to be that i get run-down, start to suffer from colds alot. i try to help myself out by taking loads of vitamins.
i also lose the psyche and find it easy to take the night off, but it is important to remember how much better you feel after a run!

i always buy the same shoes. sauconay (sp?) for the road. and inov8 for the fells.

if you want to get psyched for the fells read the book "feet in the clouds". a true inspiration, and details so well that feeling when you go quiet in a fell race, your legs feel like jelly, your mind shuts down and you know it is too late to get calories inside you.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2008, 10:15:24 am
I only really run to lose weight- it ain't working.

Until it got dark early I was doing 5km alternate days.  Always off road though, and I'm crap anyway.  Was just about managing 5km in 28 minutes.  I alway srun in Walshes or similar, and I don't do road running as my knees don't like it.
Strangely the only problem I get is elbow pains.  I must hold them funny.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 08, 2008, 10:17:08 am
Must feel great running on a pukka track - all that bounce. 


And what stretching are people doing?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: BenF on January 08, 2008, 10:23:03 am
A range of stretching before and after, mostly focused on the larger leg muscle groups but I spend time working my ankles before running and this seems to help me get straight into my stride and reduces the stiffness I used to get.  However I always also stretch my torso and arms.

I find a short gentle jog followed by my stretching routine works best and when I'm entering an event I'll usually go out for a fifteen minute gentle run about an hour (or closer) before the start time.  This really helps me get quickly into my pace at the start of the event as I often only really hit my comfortable floating pace after 20 minutes.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Bubba on January 08, 2008, 10:34:50 am
This is what my recent attempts at running have done for my knees  :boohoo:

(http://www.simplysupplements.net/images/gluc1500con.jpgx)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: BenF on January 08, 2008, 10:40:42 am
Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements made a massive difference to my soreness, particularly my elbows which had been taking a hammering due to constant manteling at Castle Hill and had been giving me huge amounts of grief before I started taking supplements.  Ten days after starting on the supplements, all pain had disappeared from my elbows and hasn't returned since.  I'm always willing to sing the praises of the stuff.  It (or a placebo effect of course) well worked for me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatdoc on January 08, 2008, 11:25:38 am
I only really run to lose weight- it ain't working.

Until it got dark early I was doing 5km alternate days.  Always off road though, and I'm crap anyway.  Was just about managing 5km in 28 minutes.  I alway srun in Walshes or similar, and I don't do road running as my knees don't like it.
Strangely the only problem I get is elbow pains.  I must hold them funny.

timely thread this for me. 1st run planned tomorrow, about the same ability... cant get enough time (cos climbing) or motivation (too cold, wet or busy training on board to get on road bike) and i need to get fitter... :'( i'll be taking it very steady i can tell you!!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 08, 2008, 12:15:21 pm
Must feel great running on a pukka track - all that bounce. 


And what stretching are people doing?
i once saw a physio who was a runner,she reckoned the evidence for stretching as injury prevention/recovery was pretty flawed.
also last year i injured my calf climbing,trying some dyno.yes i know i should know better at my age.anyhow it responded to treatment and cleared up alot sooner than the physio expected.
this made him speculate that it may not have been torn/ruptured tissue but a little known condition which happens when you stretch before exercise the muscle than gets the message here comes hard work/pain and goes into spasm which feels like a tear.
the advise was to do long gradual stretching post exercise.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Vitamin K on January 08, 2008, 01:00:15 pm
Made the mistake recently of entering and running in a fell race. It's been a while since I've done one (15 years probably) and I now I understand just how unfit I really am. A few weeks training as an alternative to climbing after a broken wrist was not nearly enough! I haven't felt such pain for a long time, during the race and in the days afterwards. Nightmare.

It has got me motivated to do more though - I've just got to plod for couple of months before stepping things up.

One thing I did learn was that my Montrails were definitely not up to the job - it'll be back to Walshes in the future.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2008, 01:10:19 pm
I've tried a few Fell shoes, but always come back to Walsh.  Using the New Balance XT Terrains (http://www.newitts.com/product/IT015584/New_Balance_RX_Terrain_Fell_Running_Shoes.htm) at present.  They are good but I tend to get heel lift so they rub on longer circuits (above about 8-9km).  I had to resort to 1000 mile socks.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chappers on January 08, 2008, 01:56:39 pm
(https://secure.advanceperformance.co.uk/acatalog/mudclawmed.jpg)

Fuck Walsh, way too old school!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: galpinos on January 08, 2008, 02:08:38 pm
(https://secure.advanceperformance.co.uk/acatalog/mudclawmed.jpg)

Fuck Walsh, way too old school!

I've got a pair of them. They're fantastic, even if they don't last long (2 HPMs). I think they do a slightly heavier weight version now.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Vitamin K on January 08, 2008, 02:10:48 pm
Not convinced by Inov8 as yet - although the Mudclaw does look a decent alternative. I guess I'll try both and see which fits best.

I like Old Skool - in fact I am Old Skool and proud of the fact (notice however, the hip modern spelling)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 08, 2008, 02:30:31 pm
1000 mile socks.

Word
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: BenF on January 08, 2008, 02:33:16 pm
Any other thoughts on the Inov8 range?  I've been tempted in the past but keep going back to Montrail becuase I haven't had any issues with them since I started running in them (my old Wasatch's were awesome on every surface and lasted two years of heavy usage).  My current Hurricane Ridge XCR's are nearing the end of their life and I'll again be considering the Inov8's soon, so any feedback will be appreciated.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2008, 02:38:16 pm
I tried on the MudClaw but it didn't seem to fit as well as either the Walsh or New Balance shoes.  I can't remember why not, but on the treadmill in the shop I didn't like them.  Not much help, sorry.  I've got wide feet though, so it may be that.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: galpinos on January 08, 2008, 03:18:04 pm

Ben, the Mudclaw above is a proper peat bog racing shoe. Very light, aggresive but not that robust. They lasted me 2 HPM's and a few trainign runs but not more. The last HPM put a few holes in them.

Innov8 obviously do quite a varying range but the last isn't consistant across it. I got the Mudclaw as my feet are pretty narrow, the others I tried seemed to have too much volume at the front, they felt like flippers.

(to give you an idea of my feet, I wear Mizuno on the road as Ascics (sp?) are too "big" around my toes and a little too wide overall.)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 08, 2008, 04:39:18 pm
Generally I wear anasazi pinks and blue slips.


What brand of running shoe should I look at?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: underground on January 08, 2008, 05:40:18 pm
I took my ass down to Keep On Running at Attercliffe, got the youth to give me the once over, and tried on a Nike, an Asics and a Brooks - the Brooks won straight away.

Ordered a pair from Barnes at Lakesrunner.com who was very obliging....

First proper runners I ever bought and they feel great, much nicer than running in approach shoes or big boots...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Moo on January 08, 2008, 06:09:46 pm
I ran for a bus once









































missed it like but i still ran
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: saltbeef on January 08, 2008, 08:24:04 pm
check the nike bowerman range, i run in the max. or at least i used to. walked home from the hallamshire in them today and my legs don't hurt...
as per getting your gait analysed. take your old shoes when you go buy a new pair, if its a usefful shop they should be able to work out whether you pronate or supinate, or if you primarily run on your toes etc. I think there is some recent evidence in the sport science rags suggesting that flash trainers could almost aggravate injuries.
I generally run for about 5 mins having done some warm up drills at home then do some stretching then go for a run, then stretch, if i didn't i'd be even less flexible than i am now.
Here you go, if your gonna run 3-4times a week, to improve i'd suggest one long run slowish, one hill session, ie run for about 2miles, then run hard up easy down a hill depending on fitness etc about 4-8 times, fnd another diff distance repeat, run 2 miles home. do some intervals another day, no need for a track, the repetitive corners and the way it changes your style can lead to injury.  then 30-40 mins another day. enjoy.
anyway i'll get back on my turbo now.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 08, 2008, 09:55:24 pm
For what it's worth galpinos has hit the nail on the head with the mudclaw 270, a pure racing shoe if ever there was one.
They do a heavier version which seems to be ok, I've only worn mine twice, but the number of people you see wearing them is probably a good indication to how good they are.

For fell running traditionalists, Walsh seem to have changed the last of their range and they are now wider across the instep, they don't seem to be as snug as they used to be, they're still comfy but don't seem to be as good.

A possible alternative to this is the mountain bear gladiator, although there are those who say they're crap on wet rock. Although I wouldn't know I've never used them.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chappers on January 08, 2008, 10:26:29 pm
no need for a track, the repetitive corners and the way it changes your style can lead to injury.

warm up and down the opposite way  ::)

tonight was fun until the third mile when the horizontal stinging hail stones started and soon covered the track about a cm deep. hills by head torch on thursday with the fell boys.

i accept all points made about those inov8's wearing out fast, but it is not true of the rest of their shoes, i have another pair of less aggressive ones (teroc ??) and they are in great condition still, even after a two day mountain marathon. must also point out that i have never worn a pair of walsh... :whistle:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 08, 2008, 10:41:02 pm
must also point out that i have never worn a pair of walsh

You ain't never lived, boy.  :lol:
I admit that Walsh have various models which are all variations on a theme.  At the end of the day, they are like rock shoes:  what fits, fits.  All the shoes mentioned are good hill shoes, it's just a case of finding the ones that don't destroy your tootsies.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 08, 2008, 11:19:38 pm
Must feel great running on a pukka track - all that bounce. 

After a week in bed with a chest infection followed by 13 miles of plodding... Yes it felt fucking great to have all that bounce. Sweeeet  bounce bounce
(http://boulderingvideos.googlepages.com/web-TSHB0889.jpeg/web-TSHB0889-full;init:.jpeg)

Look at me  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 09, 2008, 10:56:35 am
I'm keen to train towards a half marathon; 13 miles is double-ish what I currently cover; wouldn't be aiming too high, I think.

I'd be keen for saltbeefs' regime but Hamburg is somewhat like Flanders and it'll be difficult to find any hills, though there is one that may fit the bill.

I built the structure (w/some help) that keeps the crowd dry (?) at the Manchester City Athletics track; I always thought the surface was lush, it felt great, even in steel toe-d boots . . . this has to be the way forward as I've no interest in fell running, and road running does make me sore.

Good effort on the half-marathon Lagers; I see you were built for endurance  ;)

As for gait, I believe I may fall into the speedy Chihauhau/Smeagol-in-a-hurry category . . .

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 09, 2008, 11:02:51 am
Hill reps are not only good for running up hill sthey can also help your speed, it's similar to interval training in the respect you put all your effort into the hill, and then your easy section is the downhill.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 09, 2008, 11:33:15 am
I did that half marathon with Lagers. It was a damn good effort as he'd been properly ill (as per) the week before and had to blag the organisers that he was ok to start. Still managed a very respectable time too.

Actually, when I say "did" what I mean is I walked from my house to St Mary's gate with the Mrs and sprog, watched him and sis-in-law run past, drove to Don Valley and met them at the finish and then went to the pub. Sharpe don't run.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 09, 2008, 12:07:56 pm
I see you were built for endurance

Yep, I can drink for two or three days with minimal sleep - as long as I have appropriate company (you know who you are   :beer2:).
And as far as eating goes; I can eat almost all day every day without resorting to any unethical purging.
I am built for the traditional orgy, Roman style.  :beer1: :beer1: :beer1:

The longest run I did before the half marathon was an hour and a half (did that twice) the rest of my runs were all one hour or sometimes less. The crowds and atmosphere are easily enough to get you through the second half of the route. I ran the two halves of the route seperately a couple of times at an easy, steady pace during training, which left me feling pretty confident about how fast to take it on the day. I was definitely faster on the second half, because I knew what I had left and what the route felt like. Redpoint!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on January 09, 2008, 03:10:18 pm
houdini - if you're currently doing 6-7 miles regularly you'll manage a half no worries, just don't go out too hard and don't expect it not to hurt for a few days afterwards.(from bitter experience). Also echo LSF's comments re the atmosphere helping. On the other hand, if your looking for more than just getting round, a bit more than nipping out for a run twice a week will probably be required.
Re shoes, any decent running shop will analyse your gait and let you try a variety of shoes- some will use video for this but it's hardly necessary.
Training wise, if you're looking at a half then at least one of your sessions should be a 'tempo' or 'threshold' run (the fastest rate at which your body can process lactate)  - easiest way to measure this is by getting a HRM: your threshold pace is about 85%.

Right, my own query, since there appears to be a few regular runners on here - How do you guys structure your training around climbing? Obviously I'm prioritising climbing here, but am trying to get out 3 times a week as well, with an eye on the Bath Half in March. Do people run and climb on the same day, etc etc. All tips gratefully grovelled for...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 09, 2008, 07:21:59 pm
I would run and train on the same day- fingerboard etc that only really uses upper body.  But, I don't think you get the full benefit unless you hang first, then run.  For climbing/wall I avoid running the same day (and usually the day before for outside stuff).  Even when you run regularly I personally think you are still only at 80% the following day.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 09, 2008, 09:07:45 pm
I run and climb on the same day, but hey, I'll run, climb, lift, skip, then go clubbing - all on the same day!  Sensational stuff. 


Seriously, I've never felt so warmed-up for pulling than after a decent run. (Tho skipping followed by some powerball is a radge warm-up too.)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 09, 2008, 09:31:57 pm
Is it really just me that's into skipping?





It's not a girls rope, it's metul 'n' evryfink!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on January 09, 2008, 09:38:16 pm
i have running phases, in the past frustration with climbing has led to me getting into running rather than working through the climbing plateau, this may be why i have been climbing the same grade for the past 7 years (not fully true - i have actually got marginally better  :o)

i can't do both running and climbing to full effort - what i have only just learned is if i want to get better at climbing, i can go running just not as hard/far. in the run up to your race you will probably shift your focus of effort to your running.

as for alternating leg and arm training  - i read somewhere, that whatever you are exercising, you need glycogen reserves to repair and strengthen - since these reserves are finite, even if you are resting your arms by going running, you won't actually fully recover if you go too hard/don't rest enough. i think its good to have 1 day a week doing nothing. (i often manage many!)

from an energy level perspective, you can climb before running, but it is MUCH harder to climb after running. if you run a short easy run before climbing its a good warm up.

i just went for a run - the streets were rammed with new years resolution runners (including me)





Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: erm, sam on January 09, 2008, 09:57:59 pm
I love skipping. You can get so wasted! It gets so intense doing 1 minute on 1 minute off intervals at high tempo, keeping the rthym not stepping on the rope etc really keeps you focussed.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: galpinos on January 09, 2008, 10:02:32 pm

I don't find skipping much of a work out. 10 secs of jumping up and down followed by 3 minutes untangling my legs from the rope doesn't really get the heart going.

I'll stick to running.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 10, 2008, 07:54:39 am
But sometimes running is such an unattractive option isn't it?  Half a foot of ice, torrential rain etc..



The beauty of skipping (done correctly) is that it burns far more calories than running (I skip just under lightspeed), it works the upper-half better than running (particularly the shoulders/triceps), trains the grip fabulously, you don't have to run back from wherever you ran to, and can be done indoors away from the filthy weather.  Skipping is mental when you learn to do it properly.

Never buy a non-steel rope and get one w/the capacity to add weight to the grips.






I just re-read your post Galpinos - it's wholly obvious that you need to learn to skip. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 10, 2008, 01:29:54 pm
Inspired by you lot (and my incresing beer belly), I've just got back from a run.  Did 5.8km cross country in the pissing rain.  A tad wet underfoot, but the NBs were very good.  Managed just under 6km in 32 mins (works out at 10.75kmh), which ain't bad for me at present.
Houdini:  Akis reckons skipping is for girls and gays.  And you ain't got no tits, boy.....
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: saltbeef on January 10, 2008, 04:41:18 pm
skipping is waddage. i always use it before training at the school. gets you tres warm. i've too low a boredom threshold, and nowhere to do it. I also have the peak ten minutes away to run in. however I'm struggling with walking currently.
feeling fit and cruising past people in a race is possibly one of the most satisfying things there is (and thats cos you're lapping them, because they ain't gonna be in front)
chappers yeah i know you can run the opposite direction, I still feel too much training on the track can make you injury prone, the bounce alters the gait. (at least this was the percieved wisdom when I was running competitively, ie 10year ago.)
houdinininini if there is one hill where you live run up and down it, when I were a youth in bedford the only hill was in the cemetry. I ran up and down that bastard, and won a few fell races first year i moved to shef...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 10, 2008, 04:43:58 pm
Akis reckons skipping is for girls and gays. 



Skipping's for boxers and boulderers, sweetheart

Have you met my friend Nigel?

(http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/3/31/Benn.Nigel.jpg)

He said he was going to sodomize you w/extreme prejudice for suggesting he's pour homme.






(How does skipping compare with other aerobic activities?

One study showed that 10 minutes of skipping can have the same health benefits as a 30 minute run but this will depend on how good at skipping you are. It is also a cheap and fun way of getting fit.
)

Personally I rate the lower impact of skipping, when it's done properly height jumped is measured in mm.


Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 10, 2008, 04:53:28 pm
youth in bedford

Then you know Jeremy Stephenson and Alan Davies?


I want it to freeze again.  I ran my circuit in -7°C t'other week: Fresh is the word, mmmmmm . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 10, 2008, 05:32:50 pm
He said he was going to sodomize you w/extreme prejudice for suggesting he's pour homme.

Wasn't me it was AKis.
Akis vs Gay Nige.  Could be interesting.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 11, 2008, 10:20:03 am
If you call seeing Akis end up in a wheelchair 'interesting' then yeah, you could say that.

Unless he was allowed to use his harpoon gun of course.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 11, 2008, 06:58:53 pm
Let the schedule increase. 


Skipping - I got one hour into a storming 90 minute clubmix (the orbit, natch) matching beat w/jump.  Stopping only to correct failures and drink a swig/grab quick breather (c. 6 or 7 minutes rest in total).  Followed by 2 glasses of water, 2 spoons of honey, and over an hour of running.  Easy 2000 calories.


This is an indecently relaxed evening.  Organic weed pipes and a bottle of Pinot Noir, jessum boss . . .   
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on January 11, 2008, 11:23:05 pm
haven't done much skipping since school - houdinin do you need to go outside? do you do it in the rain (or have an big indoor space?)

on a running theme - lager star fish inspired me to link these rather unflattering race shots, couldn't seem to link the pic directly but here are some pics of me in my rather stylish green Totley vest (looking rather large thighed)

eyam half marathon (http://handsworthroadhogs.co.uk/eyam404.htm) my first race (i'm 190)

buckden pike (http://www.ilkleyharriers.org.uk/photogalleries.php?mode=prev&gallery=040619BuckdenPike&title=Buckden%20Pike,%202004&photo=thumb37.jpg&index=36&photographer=Paul%20Wood)

haven't done any races in a long while - its bad enough with the boyfriends family all being fell running champions (and bob graham rounders) - and the resultant xmas morning run....


Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 11, 2008, 11:29:52 pm
We have underground carparking, I skip just at the bottom of the ramp that leads to the carpark.  It's out of sight of the other appartments/people, and it's sheltered.  I can't do it indoors; It'd play murder with the parke (sp?) flooring and would make an absolute racket. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on January 11, 2008, 11:40:38 pm
i' am guessing you have a boxing rope, more (http://www.johnlewis.com/jl_assets/product/230399337.jpg)



than
(http://www.sashadolluk.co.uk/mediac/400_0/media/skipping~rope.jpg)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 11, 2008, 11:43:50 pm
Yes, though that looks a wee bit more sci-fi than mine; metal on the grips is pants, mine are covered in chalk.

Mine cost €12 and they're ace (2nd rope)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: underground on January 11, 2008, 11:54:28 pm
I looked at ebay, and they're all leather skipping ropes. Where does one procure a metallic one, in Englande?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 17, 2008, 11:49:48 am
Try a martial arts shop.   


Hills.  There's no hills to run up but I have found a vast flight of steps. Will that do?  I feel rinsed afterwards:  I attack them as fast as I can two steps at a time.   
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: BenF on January 17, 2008, 12:06:28 pm
Yeah, a good sized set of stairs could give some great interval training.  There used to be an annual stair running challenge event in Liverpool, down by the Pier Head, on some huge set of stairs. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 17, 2008, 12:37:52 pm
There's that race up the Empire State building too that looks hardcore........

http://www.esbnyc.com/tourism/tourism_specialevents_runup_previous.cfm


.........9 minutes 33 seconds sounds ridiculously quick.

And before Houdini smites me again for posting about something I don't participate in I'd like to point out that I'm a lapsed runner. School cross country and 800m champion. I've just smoked too many fags since then.  :(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: BenF on January 17, 2008, 12:53:46 pm
I'm a lapsed runner.

Is a very good one of those called a prolapsed runner?  Sounds nasty. :-\
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 17, 2008, 02:38:39 pm
Yeah, a good sized set of stairs could give some great interval training.

I try to run all the stairs at the Hallamshire hospital whenever I'm there. Leaves my leg muscles and lungs feeling well used without hurting the joints. Must start timing myself. Walking all the way back down with legs of jelly is a very strange feeling (reluctant to enter a lift full of people when I'm panting and sweating with the veins on my head popping out like hosepipes).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 17, 2008, 02:54:13 pm
And before Houdini smites me again for posting about something I don't participate in  :(

Hard but Fair, Jasper.  Hard but fair.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 17, 2008, 02:58:13 pm
a prolapsed runner?  Sounds nasty. :-\

Indeed.  I semi-prolapsed one time on the toilet (having taken a lot of magic 'shrooms).  Had to push it back in.  Not unconnectedly, this was also the occassion I barfed in my pants as they sat round my ankles, whilst on the jobbie.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 18, 2008, 07:33:43 am
Urrggh!

And before breakfast too.




Achilles tendons, mine are beginning to turn aginst me.  I wake up with an unusual tightness followed by a click or two for the first few dozen steps.  Usually some feelings of nervous electrical interference; though this has also occurred later in the day & particularly when I goose-step(!). 

Playing Doc I think they're tightening-up due to insufficient post-run stretching.  Does this sound familiar to any runners?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 18, 2008, 08:14:47 am
when i was younger i ran 3 times aweek as well as climbing,my recollection was i managed this quite successfully for an extended period.however on reading my diary of the time recently i was always having some problem or other.usually achilles/calf problems.every time i try to get back in to it now i usuall do ok for a week or 2 but so as i extend the distance/time i get achilles problems.apparently the older you get the more likely these are if you have a lay off running.
this was my answer to your original post.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 18, 2008, 08:16:46 am
Must feel great running on a pukka track - all that bounce. 


And what stretching are people doing?
i once saw a physio who was a runner,she reckoned the evidence for stretching as injury prevention/recovery was pretty flawed.
also last year i injured my calf climbing,trying some dyno.yes i know i should know better at my age.anyhow it responded to treatment and cleared up alot sooner than the physio expected.
this made him speculate that it may not have been torn/ruptured tissue but a little known condition which happens when you stretch before exercise the muscle than gets the message here comes hard work/pain and goes into spasm which feels like a tear.
the advise was to do long gradual stretching post exercise.
i also posted this.


Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 18, 2008, 08:18:21 am
Cheers oh wise one,


What can I do to turn the tide?  Stop running?  Massage?  (thoroughly fucking aghast smiley)  

You are fast today, patients to kill huh?  I don't stretch before.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 18, 2008, 08:22:30 am
buy a bike.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 18, 2008, 08:34:14 am
Are you going too fast or too far? That idea of "finishing strong" applies to running too.
Starting too fast? Chasing improvements? Running like an overly developed weight training turkey? My Aunt snapped her Achilles tendon by launching into a fast run without any warming up.
Have a go at underdoing it for a while. Think "underdone turkey".
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 18, 2008, 08:36:20 am
i would have thought houdi should just think turkey ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 18, 2008, 08:39:42 am
You Seer, you.

Yesterday my steed "fashion pegasus" was stolen.  I'd done everything to encourage thieves to take it over the last two years:  never ever locking it.  Maintenence?  Perish the thought.  It was a recovered bike, was never good, hence my insistance that nothing should be done to it, not even air in the front tyre; no rear break.  Extreme, but I thought that would be enough to dissuade thieves.  Apparently not.  Hope the beggar(s) haven't hurt themselves on it!

Here is a rare locked (by Fraudini) pic.  As you can see, this is not a bike one would risk a conviction/no-brakes crash for:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e67/houdini2/044593b3.jpg)

Matters not, I've another recovered bike in t'cellar.


Lagers - Seriously, I am plodder, or at least I think I plod.  I'll start w/improved footwear, and less frequent running, more stretching.

But yes, I figure overenthusiasm/age to be implicated, somewhere.


*gobble gobble*
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 18, 2008, 08:43:16 am
I reccommend learning some technique (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,8225.msg123902.html#msg123902)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 18, 2008, 08:44:18 am
Too fast or too far.


Unsure, I won't stop till I'm sweating.   Yesterdays plod was for one and one half hours.  Gentle w/a short stride.

Technique, genau.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 18, 2008, 08:54:02 am
how often do you run. i would reckon that to be comfy running for 11/2 hours you would need at least 2 or 3 shorter runs per week and to have built up to this over 6 to 12 months.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 18, 2008, 09:01:40 am
Approximately 4 months of 40-60 mins every 3rd day (tho biked regularly for 3 months before starting runing).  Occassionally I'll run every 2nd day.  Usually not though.  I find every 2nd day makes my lower shin ache too much.  2 - 3 days rests seems nice though.   

I'm not a slave to schedule, mind.  Routine gets broken w/bouldering/swimming/other training.


I look at it on paper.  You will tell me I'm over-training.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on January 18, 2008, 09:15:07 am
the trouble with going from biking to running is heart and lungs wise you can go for longer than your leg s can take.you should start with 10/15mins and build up from that.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on January 19, 2008, 04:21:12 pm
Echoing Webbo's comments above - take it way slow to begin with. Running's pretty high impact compared to most activities, and if you're reasonably fit to begin with, it's easy enough to screw knees/ankles without sweating too much.

I seem to be managing to run thrice weekly alongside climbing 4x (is there an equivalent of thrice for 4?) on this schedule, though to be honest I'll either bin one of the climbing sessions or the long run will be curtailed most weeks. Still, no tweaks yet, and I've been (attempting) this plan for the last month or so...
day1 Climb (bouldering)
day2 Run - threshold (6m)
day3 Climb (fingerboard) easy run (4-5m)
day4 Climb (routes or circuits)
day5 Run - long (ish - 9m)
day6 Climb (bouldering)
day7 Rest

But keeping priorities in line - I'm out of the Bath Half as it conflicts with a font trip!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 19, 2008, 04:27:24 pm
That's a bummer, I thought about entering w/you . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on January 19, 2008, 06:45:26 pm
No excuse houdini - in fact since the race is full, my absence may offer you an oppurtunity otherwise unavailable (though running on someone elses number is frowned upon by anal organisers). Have now entered the Llanelli half (http://www.halfmarathon.org.uk/) to make up for it - thinking the the smaller event may be nicer as well. Though on the other hand less entries probably means a higher standard and thus fewer people between me and DFL.

Edit: Ha! Just read that the Llanelli race welcomes power walkers - no longer worried a bout being outclassed.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 21, 2008, 04:20:57 pm
(http://www.coolrunning.com/images_misc/str5.GIF)

OK I'm over this stretch like a rash.  The achilles phemonena are less frequent now.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 22, 2008, 10:51:10 am
How did I miss this?  :lol:


Indeed.  I semi-prolapsed one time on the toilet (having taken a lot of magic 'shrooms).  Had to push it back in.  Not unconnectedly, this was also the occassion I barfed in my pants as they sat round my ankles, whilst on the jobbie.

Yeah and you put 'em back on too, didn't ya.  Go on, admit it shitty-puke-pants-boy.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 22, 2008, 10:54:07 am
Right, get you now.


No they were removed and washed.   But twas ones rim that caused most concern not me grundies.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 22, 2008, 11:09:38 am
Go on, admit it shitty-puke-pants-boy.

That's Houdini's hold name sorted for when I get round to building a board (fucking unlikely as I barely have time to sleep at the moment, maybe name the rungs on the fingerboard.....).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 22, 2008, 08:50:18 pm
fucking unlikely as I barely have time to sleep at the moment

So the rumour that your wife is spreading about you spending most of sunday in bed is untrue, eh? ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 23, 2008, 09:43:04 am
That wasn't sleep that was suffering with alcohol poisoning. As you well know.  ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 23, 2008, 04:13:23 pm
That wasn't sleep that was suffering with alcohol poisoning. As you well know.  ;)

 :lol: :guilty: :alky: :beer2: :thumbsup:

 :boohoo:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 23, 2008, 04:17:50 pm
Was he trying to keep up w/Bacchus?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 23, 2008, 10:31:44 pm
Despite his lack of recent practice and suitable training regime, he left Bacchus standing and engaged in some very out of character macho behaviour. Excellent motivational rant aimed at me. Lots of loud swearing, laughing and comparing of biceps, leading to some ill-advised arm wrestling.
He looked very, very happy.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 24, 2008, 06:08:42 pm
Running's ace:  down to 59kg.  S o o n  one finger one armers easy peesy, s o o o o n.



If only I could cut the wine down . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on January 25, 2008, 10:49:55 am
Running is ace. I used to be one of those fat kids at school. Started running at Uni at dropped to 70Kg. Stayed at that weight for past few years but can't get it lower, despite a half marathon time of 1hr 20
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 28, 2008, 01:54:55 pm
That's some serious 1/2 marathon waddage you're touting their Fatleg (now slimleg no doubt).  Crumbs.



Today was a cracker:  I'd not ran for 4 days so thought I'd push the boat out and managed a solid 3 hours of flat running (w/water & choc break in the middle)  I felt high as a kite on endorphins and couldn't stop smiling in the last 1/2 hour.

so - where do I find out about the 1/2 marathons in Britain? (Where, for example) - I feel ready.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Somebody's Fool on January 28, 2008, 02:01:21 pm
Sheffield is a good first one by all accounts.  It was my first (and only) foray into long distance running and is surprisingly flat for a city of its geomorphology.  It's around May time.  If you're running for three hours you'll piss it.

It doesn't rain very much either.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 28, 2008, 02:05:47 pm
Oh I'm not afraid of rain - in fact - I love to run in the rain:  It really keeps one cool (there was a lovely misty drizzle here in the 'burg).


Shef you say?  Hmmm . . .   
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on January 28, 2008, 03:56:50 pm
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/defaultevents.asp?sp=&v=2 (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/defaultevents.asp?sp=&v=2)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on January 28, 2008, 09:01:06 pm
Sheffield half is pretty horrid loads of it through industrial Attercliffe. There are some pretty hardcore 1/2 and full marathons in the peaks, never done one but may give one a go.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on January 28, 2008, 09:10:47 pm
There are some pretty hardcore 1/2 and full marathons in the peaks, never done one but may give one a go.

Let's not start all that again  ::)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 28, 2008, 10:20:10 pm
I am toying with the idea of the Nice 1/2 marathon (http://www.nicesemimarathon.com/). Not running at all at the moment, so will have to decide PDQ and start training or wait until next year. Ran and skated some of the route in Sept. Beautiful place. Cocktails at the Negresco afterwards - now that has a certain appeal... UKB team entry in south of France running event? There are some lovely boys and girls to look at on the Promenade Anglais.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 28, 2008, 11:55:17 pm
Damn it I nearly booked myself in for the Gwalchmai Ynys Mon Marathon (Anglesea) though baulked at its undulating status I want someting easier for my first 1/2 cos I know how rugged the Gwalcmai area can be.  Crazy Foo!

Lagers I promise - I shall run w/you.   Hope you are used to taking 1/2 strides.  Let's get the ball in motion.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2008, 08:29:14 am
Lagers I promise - I shall run w/you.   Hope you are used to taking 1/2 strides.  Let's get the ball in motion.

Got off my fat arse and hauled it round the streets for 40 mins at a steady pace last night. First run since last summer. That's a start. Surprised how good I felt. Legs feel fine today. Got a nasty cramp/spasm in my upper back and neck on my left side this morning - probably due to sloppy technique. However my left elbow felt great doing some pulls and hangs on the fingerboard last night and now has less pain than I'm used to in the morning (nerve has obviously been severed  :thumbsup:).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 30, 2008, 09:14:49 am
Running you say!?  :o

Does this mean the drugs are finally working?!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2008, 10:17:25 am
Running you say!?  :o

Does this mean the drugs are finally working?!  :thumbsup:

Yep.

My gait has been skewed by toe pain for so long, that I've got some right bad habits - probably why my back/neck is so bad today (can't hold phone in left hand!). The gout attacks are definitely less severe and less frequent now that my uric (sp?) acid levels are approaching normal. Still some underlying joint-fuckery-bone-shit going on; doctors next week for more discussion. My clients/alcoshamens think its hillarious that I have more health problems than them!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Jaspersharpe on January 30, 2008, 11:01:09 am
Good news.  ;D
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2008, 11:07:51 am
can't hold phone in left hand

Good news.  ;D

You realise that this is limiting my enjoyment of our phone sex?! Its just take, take, take from you. What about my needs?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 30, 2008, 11:27:59 am
I know a man in Yorkshire that could lend a hand . . . !


GCWs elbow pain:  he's a sawer non?  I get a little of this if I'm a tad dehydrated and saw my arms w/ momentum.  I get around this by mixing the way I hold my body as I run - ie: moving my arms rigidly from the shoulder.  Same w/ legs - ie:  running with a longstride and trying to glide when both feet have no contact w/ the deck;  or leading with the knee rather than the foot.  Seems to work; as does keeping ones vision soft w/ the neck floating - not fixed atop ones shoulders.

Good luck w/ your Good Things Syndrome.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2008, 12:14:19 pm
Just looking at putting in my application for the Nice 21.5 Km.

"7)   AIl the runners participate to the competition under their own responsability. The participation to the sporting tests organized by the sporting federations is subordinated to the possesion of a sporting licence attesting that a medical examination has been issued stipulating the absence of no-contraindications in competitive sports and for the persons who are not holders of such licences the possesion of the medical certificate dated from less than one year by the day of the race, i.e. 20th April 2008. The original or the photocopy of the medical certificate must be kept for one year by the organizers. "

I have to have a license? Medical cert? Will my documents from doing the Wad-Town 1/2 marathon be enough? I'll try reading the origional French to get a proper understanding.

You in Houdini? (for running and proof reading)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2008, 01:13:47 pm
I know a man in Yorkshire that could lend a hand . . . !

I have asked Mr Yorkshire, but he can't reach high enough to hold my phone while I wanlk.
Pain getting better.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 30, 2008, 03:46:55 pm
I desperate to pin down (hence the name) . . .   But:

Nice sounds dandy, but would be harder for me to attend/commit to as a world of UK work looms ominously on the horizon.  Sheff sounds a great possibility and by the look of their site no Dr.  Cert is required. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2008, 03:57:15 pm
I'm up for Sheffield 1/2 marathong. Can always enter Nice (20 April) nearer the time - anyone else in? My only 1/2 marathon time is 1.45; looking to beat it by 5 or 10 (eek) mins
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on January 31, 2008, 06:56:58 pm
I'm in for Sheffield 1/2. Got to get in training the mrs, is getting quicker than me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 31, 2008, 09:08:39 pm
Last year, in the run up to the Sheff 1/2 there was a group of us who ran the two halves of the route (to find out how it felt) leaving cars at the ends. I'm in for similar organisation this year - probably in the month before the event. Anyone else who is interested (wandereing the streets of Attercliffe in running shorts!) - I'm happy to meet up and sort car coordination out.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on January 31, 2008, 10:05:38 pm
Sheffield half is boring and industrial- that's it the dullest course you could imagine. That's my view and saves having to run around the course before the race
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 31, 2008, 10:10:35 pm
1hr 45m = 105 minutes is 1 mile every 8 minutes.   


I've already ran 1500m in 4 mins.  Before being running fit.  This will be ace/piss.  - He said.


I like industrial - besides - I've no interest in hill running, sounds safe for a first 1/2.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 03, 2008, 01:39:23 am
Moderate to strong pronators,

have you experience of this product?

(http://picture.yatego.com/images/460bd35339af99.0/magnetist_w.JPG)

@ €139 a pair I want to be sure before purchase . . .  shite?  Longevity?  Support?  Want extra cushioning and arch support.  Like the narrow toe area of this shoe, good for pink/blue wearers.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 03, 2008, 01:50:51 am
No idea about the Puma's Houdini, but I'd be careful about low volume toe boxes if you're doing lots of miles.

1500m in 4 minutes?? Seriously, this is less than 10 seconds outside the womens world record - and not running fit you say!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Bubba on February 03, 2008, 01:54:52 am

He was powered by port.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 03, 2008, 01:59:18 am
Strewth!

Are you joking?!

4: 18  4:12  I forget which.    1500m on a swish treadmill. 

As I said, worried Chihauhau / Smeagol . . .   



I was utterly fukt after mind.  Please I want to make it clear I was sprinting like a bastard.


These days I'm powered by shiraz . . .   Plus I've had to take 1 week off since the last 3 hr blast . . .   It really did murder me, and the thighs took 3 days alone to stop aching.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 03, 2008, 02:14:05 am
Started taking soluble chondriotin/glucosamine, hopefully it will stop the lower patella area and the inside of my shin from feeling like lead for the 1st 20mins of a run.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 04, 2008, 03:15:46 pm
Started taking soluble chondriotin/glucosamine, hopefully it will stop the lower patella area and the inside of my shin from feeling like lead for the 1st 20mins of a run.
slippery slope.creatine next then who knows. :whistle:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on February 04, 2008, 03:33:31 pm
Started taking soluble chondriotin/glucosamine, hopefully it will stop the lower patella area and the inside of my shin from feeling like lead for the 1st 20mins of a run.

Dissolves well in the port, no?
Going back a step, I do hold my elbows rigid when I run- i think that's the problem.  I'd be tempted to run with a PowerBall in each hand, but when somebody saw me running along slowly and jerking both arms around and making odd whining noises I think the police (or worse) would be in attendance.  I shall instead try to relax them as I go.  They stop aching as soon as I stop running, oddly enough, but it's irksome.
I hear there's lots of good evidence that creatine (http://cfcp.uchicago.edu/~colin/blog/images/111106-brussel-big.jpg) is of great benefit.  Is this correct, Houd?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 04, 2008, 03:37:58 pm
It's hardly performance enhancing, but yes, it's unnatural, but longevity is more important to me these days (hence stopping smoking pot and tabs last year).

I'm worried about my left knee in particular: partially severed a tendon two years ago at work and it's never been the same since - I get pain - especially in the cold.  Not to mention collapsed arches and a cacophany of crunches from each ankle -when I rotate them. 

Such is life . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on February 04, 2008, 03:48:46 pm
I hope you've got medial arch correction, that will help your knee.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 04, 2008, 04:05:51 pm
Yep, right there, that's the one, the biggest dumbest omission of all - after two years (post advice) I've failed to get supportive insoles.  I just kinda got used to not having them.  I do do a corrective stretch to help drag the patella back into place.  But yes, I know I need to get the insoles sorted . . .

Where's the dumb-fuck smiley when you need it?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on February 04, 2008, 05:13:55 pm
Somewhere near the Punter button.
Seriously though, the longer you leave it the more you'll suffer.  You have a pronation in your midfoot which won't help your subtalar joint.  Also, you will be medialising your weight bearing through the knee.  Do you get medial knee pain by any chance?  There's also gonna be a torsional element which may well give you some PFJ issues.

Get it sorted Mush. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 04, 2008, 11:22:32 pm
Ah -  Sprechen Sie English bitte?



I know . . .   I know . . .   I know . . .

I'm just too fucking good at taking it like a m(an)oron.  Next pay check.  Promise myself.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on February 04, 2008, 11:24:55 pm
The longer you leave things the more your mechanics will adjust to the issue.  Then when you try arch correction things will be worse.   :devangel:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 04, 2008, 11:27:02 pm
I know this.  I tried to get appointments on the NHS to get the one pair of anatomically correct insoles they offer, but ended up doing a Houdini and *poof* he was gone from the UK.

Damn it, I will buy generic insoles Monday, it's a start.   It's spread to my hip I'm sure . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on February 04, 2008, 11:28:37 pm
Houdini  *poof*


Damn it, I will buy generic insoles Monday, it's a start. 

True, but get proper orthotics when you can.  They are much better.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 06, 2008, 06:59:53 pm
Come on then!   Nevermind two wheels - Who's up for some real pain?  What about Shanks' Pony?



Who will join myself, Lagers' and Fatleg for the Sheffield Half?  20Km in 90mins.  Fockin' pish! 

Wuß!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: saltbeef on February 06, 2008, 07:04:54 pm
would love to. but my leg won't let me run at the moment, so i'll just have to commiserate myself buying tight clothing and riding my bicycle badly. i'll buy anyone a beer who beats my pb of 1 hr 12 (that wasn't over this course, it was in bedford half mazza...).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 06, 2008, 07:06:11 pm
Bedford - is this the flatest or is that a N. Norfolk course?

1: 12?   Deal!  You only die once . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 06, 2008, 07:16:59 pm
Damn it!  If I can enduro-skip for one hour I can beat it! (1:12)

Wanjiru, 20, has lowered the half-marathon world record three times in the past two years. He first made his mark as an 18-year-old, setting his first world half-marathon record of 59 minutes, 16 seconds at the Fortis Half-Marathon Rotterdam in 2005. His time was one second faster than the world record Paul Tergat set in 1998. Earlier this year in March, Wanjiru returned to Rotterdam and ran the course in 58:33, improving his own half-marathon record by twenty seconds, set in Ras al Khaimah on February 9, 2007. En route to his half-marathon record, Wanjiru also unofficially broke legendary runner Haile Gebrselassie’s 20K world record with a time of 55:31.
 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on February 06, 2008, 07:20:06 pm
I'll buy anyone a beer who beats my pb of 1 hr 12

I'm guessing that offer is only for users of this forum and not all of Ethiopia.

1.12! I don't have a chance. I can do 100m in 20 seconds (coordination issues). I will need to do the whole course at close to my fastest "sprint" speed to beat salt's pb. In the absence of steroids, stimulants and a friendly deity, this is unlikely to happen.
Still going to try though... bring it on!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 06, 2008, 07:25:44 pm
R i d i c u l e   i s   n o t h i n g   t o   b e   s c a r e d   o f  !   Adam Ant (early 80's)



Actually I'm doubtful on my 1st, but yeah, fuck it, eh?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: saltbeef on February 07, 2008, 10:43:30 am
ya lager the ethiopians aren't included. any regular ukb poster is. the bedford course was surprisingly more undulating than the sheffield one in my opinion. (with a total bitch hill right at the end, so you end up labouring in looking crap running over the finish line! )
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 07, 2008, 10:46:52 am
I'm shutting up pronto as I can see myself limping over in 1: 56 or something . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 07, 2008, 12:02:27 pm
I reckon you're pretty safe SB.

Managed my tempo run (6m) in 45:56 (basically I need to maintain this pace for the whole 13.1 to come in under 100min) so the llanelli race may be a bit soon.. Did have pretty nasty stomach cramps for most of yesterdays run though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 08, 2008, 07:34:09 pm
Saltbeef...
not withstanding what I said above, if you put Houdini's 1500 time in here (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=1681) it spits out 1:10:48 for the half!

I suspect using 1500m treadmill times to predict 13mile times may be a somewhat inexact science though...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 08, 2008, 07:59:16 pm
Whoa Duma . . .

Reign those horses in.  A little background.  I've never driven and have always walked, biked or jogged around - I'm bound to be fitter than most.  Also - the last 3 years I have done a world of skipping, very fast balls out skipping. My treadmill time was after a reasonable wall sesh plus some skipping:  I was very warm!

I tried to belt out another 1500m about 10mins later after my first but stopped 2/3rds in as I was fucked and thought I would collapse.  There is no way I could keep that up for a 1/2 mazza as I'm dead short w/ a small stride and I really have to make them move to get some speed up.  I do OK for a 35 year old shrimp.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 08, 2008, 08:06:02 pm
If I actually manage to fit it in and compete - I hope to make it in under 1:30.  I'm trying to be realistic.  Having taken notice of what Lagers said about me perhaps going to hard I began to pitch myself against others and I note that I do go a bit faster.  I guess I'm just used to moving at 160 bpm!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 11, 2008, 08:50:06 am
under 1.30 i thought you were claiming to be fit.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 09:13:21 am
I'm claiming to be heavy drinking, ex-fag/pot smoker of twelve years who's done more Jagermeister bongs, buckets, waterfalls, pills, lines, trips, 'shrooms and rave chicks that you've had hot dinners, Grandad.

I'm fit, but I want to test the water, see whether I even like running in a crowd.  Not interested in hurting my body any more than it does now to amuse you or pretend I've any chance of breaking a record.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 11, 2008, 09:45:47 am
I'm claiming to be heavy drinking, ex-fag/pot smoker of twelve years who's done more Jagermeister bongs, buckets, waterfalls, pills, lines, trips, 'shrooms and rave chicks that you've had hot dinners, Grandad.

I'm fit, but I want to test the water, see whether I even like running in a crowd.  Not interested in hurting my body any more than it does now to amuse you or pretend I've any chance of breaking a record.
a bit  touchy there young man.

by the way this grandad ran 1.20 when he was around your age.however he had warmed by swimming 1.2 miles and cycling 56 miles.
look at me. :dance1:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 09:56:23 am
'Cuse me, insomnia & it's Monday everywhere, besides read the posts above, haven't been doing it long and as a subby I can't afford to be injured w/ out pay.  I've no interest in competing; just want to have fun, finish uninjured and make up for too much abuse when younger.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 11, 2008, 11:11:20 am
now this (http://www.green-events.co.uk/eventinfo.php?eventdetails=32) looks like a quality event.

Man v Horse!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 01:27:23 pm
OK - according to www.gmaps-pedometer.com

My last run was 14.02 miles.

I stopped 3 times for a couple of minutes stretching during the run.

200m was down steps or down steep inclines when I went slow.

Stopped for all red lights (apart from one I jumped and lost one of my nine lives on - only a few left now... )

Stopped to pick up a €5 note I found on the pavement (and put in my shoe; sweat-soaked when I paid for breakfast w/ it later *sniggra* ).

Stopped for 10 minutes at the end to have a more thorough stretch in a park.

                                              *  *  *  *  *  *

I put a two hour techno mix on my mp3 player as I began.  And it finished approx. 5 minutes after I'd finished stretching and was hobbling to a cafe for breakfast (3 scrambled eggs w/ toast+big salad €3.80!)

                                              *  *  *  *  *  *

I calculate c.25 minutes stoppages for traffic lights / asking directions / treasure trove / and stretching, from that 2 hr mix.  Minus another 5 mins as I'd finished the run.

So that's 30 stoppage from 120 = 90mins.  And thats w/ one mile extra past half-mazzaTM (Saltbeef)


That's OK isn't it?  For a beginner? I wasn't pushing mega hard either (though hips would say different 1 hour after I'd had those eggs . . . )


Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 11, 2008, 01:34:58 pm
That's a long way better than OK houdini! I'll be well chuffed if I ever get to 90mins. :bow:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 01:39:36 pm
Cheers Duma, I needed that.  That rascal webbo was making me feel old.   >:(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on February 11, 2008, 02:05:19 pm
Yep, way better than "OK". Your timing system seems a little over-complicated  :lol:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 02:10:17 pm
If not wooly  :whistle:


Fraudini has a Total-lesboTM  sports watch that I'll wear next time (strap's on the last hole kinda-affair...)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 11, 2008, 02:11:23 pm
Cheers Duma, I needed that.  That rascal webbo was making me feel old.   >:(
you are old.if you think 3 score and ten at your next birthday you'll be passed middle age.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 02:15:27 pm
Fuck off  ;)  no way is 35 old!  You're just jealous that when I shave my hair . . .   it grows back  :-*
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 11, 2008, 02:27:17 pm
Fuck off  ;)  no way is 35 old!  You're just jealous that when I shave my hair . . .   it grows back  :-*
fine but are hairy shoulders that attractive.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slackline on February 11, 2008, 03:07:05 pm
you are old.if you think 3 score and ten at your next birthday you'll be passed middle age.

Perhaps thirty years ago, but lilfe expectancy is on the up (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=881) so that "middle age" is a moving target.  You've got three more years till your past the median life expectancy for males according to the statistics in 2004, but expect this to increase (unfortunately not as quickly as you age  ;) ).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 05:43:11 pm
Exactly Slackers, ex-so-foo-foo-zackly!  Not even half way there yet.

The figures for numbers of deaths in 100, 000's is interesting:

                               Age:
                          50-64          65-84                 over

Cancers                    39                 32                 18

Circ. System              36                 42                 42



Take home message?  Probably get some cardio in you, no smoking at all, tread very easy on the sauce & try not to over do it and have an infarction.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 11, 2008, 09:47:13 pm
Ace run today, could not have asked for better weather. Through the woods and along the river as the sun dipped - lush.
Measured using http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm (http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm), 14.3miles. 1:57, which I work out to be 1:47ish half pace - plus it's fairly hilly, and I wasn't pushing too hard either. May still be on for sub 100 min at Llanelli...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 11, 2008, 09:53:13 pm
Effort Duma.


Must say I dread the downhill more than up: me quads!

Forest running rocks: so lush underfoot, the knees love it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on February 13, 2008, 04:14:59 pm
got out last wed  from my front door 5 miles (on roads) - was one of those high energy days and really enjoyed myself.

after trashing my tips on sat (at secret garden at hottest part of the day - who would have thunk it), decided may as well run sunday morning as climbing wasn't going to be any great shakes.

from hathersage did a lovely 8 miles up the moors around abney looking back at all the grit edges. fields, woods and little bridges over streams; all sparkly, frosty and fairy tale like.

went to cafe for bacon butty, tea and scone, then met some folk at burbage south boulders - thinking i would be just lounging - in fact ended up taping my worst tip, and doing a problem i've never done before (40 in this pic)  ;D

(http://www.peakdistrictonline.co.uk/images/BurbageTank2Topo.jpg)

sorry to contaminate runnig thread with climbing.x

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 14, 2008, 12:08:27 am
Duma - how much rest would you allow yourself after a leisurely 1/2?


I'm doing one a w/end now - w/ no other running (the every 2nd/3rd day only works for short runs which don't do it for me right now) but plan to do another tomorrow: which is 4 days full rest.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on February 14, 2008, 08:21:20 am
One thing I have found useful recently is doing a short recovery run after any long run, I tend to do about 13-14 miles for a long run at a weekend and folow this up with a 25 minute run the following day. It makes the world of difference. I find I tend to recover much more quickly if I do this.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 14, 2008, 08:27:25 am
Thanks for the knowledge, I'll experiment w/ this. 

(It's mostly in the hip I feel it afterwards - I get a clicking on a tendon, I think.  I do the stretch where one lies down with one leg crossed over the other and pulls back on the under leg w/ ones hands to draw the top leg towards your chest.  Seems to help, but I'll take on any stretches that you know might compliment this.)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 14, 2008, 11:26:50 am
I'd take a full days rest, and just climb the day after that. Put the route on Sanoodi (http://www.sanoodi.com/explore/) if anyone's interested (search for Bristol).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 14, 2008, 12:27:59 pm
You mean you'd take on another half really quickly?  Blimey.  I'm full of green phlegm, running must wait.  Sage tea 24/7 here mate.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 14, 2008, 12:29:39 pm
Thanks for the knowledge, I'll experiment w/ this. 

(It's mostly in the hip I feel it afterwards - I get a clicking on a tendon, I think.  I do the stretch where one lies down with one leg crossed over the other and pulls back on the under leg w/ ones hands to draw the top leg towards your chest.  Seems to help, but I'll take on any stretches that you know might compliment this.)
i reckon if you were a horse we'd have shot you by now.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 14, 2008, 12:34:36 pm
Don't you kill enough people in your Day job w/ out picking on poor athletes? 


 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 14, 2008, 02:51:52 pm
alas no.its all about saving lives here on healths front line. :whistle:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on February 14, 2008, 03:53:38 pm
You mean you'd take on another half really quickly?  Blimey.  I'm full of green phlegm, running must wait.  Sage tea 24/7 here mate.

No, I'll be doing a 6 mile quick run tonight after the long one on Mon, rest Tues, climb Wed, fingerboard this morning.
Running is a good way of getting colds.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 14, 2008, 04:26:25 pm
Throat infection passed to me by from GF's work colleages, though I had thought I'd run myself into the ground . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 16, 2008, 05:12:55 pm
Todays run was intense.  Set out w/ a just keep going, nice and steady - or die.  (Got back from a club @ 5am and woke @ 10.30 stinking of Jagermeister  :whistle:)

Gmaps said just a smidge over 10 miles and made it in 90 mins dead.  Felt like death warmed-up for most of it. 




Ah . . .  seemed like a good idea at the time.    ::)

*looks around for a quiet spot to droop into coma-state*

 



Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 17, 2008, 11:56:24 pm
Went w/ this recovery run idea today:  30mins which started out quite fast for the first 10mins (don't know why - habit I guess) which dropped down to a plod for the remaining 20.

Feel reasonable, recall having no interest in doing more than 1/2 hr, mind. 

3 days rest before another run, though I'm getting an urge to get some speed-skipping in at some point too (feel I'm neglecting the top half a little).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 18, 2008, 11:57:03 pm
Hot damn!  I feel like a King, no THE king after that recovery run! 

(http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/00332/ElvisTeaser_DW_Berl_332404g.jpg)


Recommended.   (Feel like I've new Ti hips!  8))


W H Y ?   What's the SCIENCE behing the recovery run?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 20, 2008, 04:27:28 pm
Itchy feet today and went for an afternoon jog, again no pushing, just taking it easy and keeping moving:

My route on GMAPS (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1639680)

10m / 16Km  c. 85mins (bummer about running in the city is the constant start/stop due to traffic and lights plus the chore of weaving around people who've got no idea who I am and think they are free to get in my way as if they had their own lives to lead!  The stop/start plays havoc w/ my timing - using a stop watch now - and of course all the time wasted slowing down and speeding up.)

 :furious:

Didn't feel too well fueled for this one.  Like I couldn't quite get up to full stream. 

Any advice on what one should be eating the night before and soon before this kind of exercise?  I had a wee bowl of Special K half an hour before and had 2/3 bottle of red last night which I know lowers ones blood sugar levels.  Had to run through a stitch (around the liver) in the last mile or so.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on February 20, 2008, 05:02:23 pm
Maybe we should re-name this 'The Houdini training log ' You seem to be the only person who write on this thread.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 20, 2008, 05:06:11 pm
when i had aspirations to be a sports climber i ran 10 miles 3 times a week.as i was trying to be thin i ran  on salad.
go you know you can do it.
i would be 4lb heavier the next day if i went on the piss.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 20, 2008, 08:42:22 pm
Maybe we should re-name this 'The Houdini training log ' You seem to be the only person who write on this thread.

My training is much in excess of what appears here, to include all would send the wrong message, non?

(Boulderers are fundamentally lazy when it comes to cardio, mind.  This explains a lot.)

I really don't want to go down the salad route.  I like a good salad, but my salads drip expensive extra virgin oil, nuts, and all forms of cheese.

Duma trains his running too, don't forget.  And others.  I lost 1300g today.  That's from 69 down.  4lb is 2.4 Kg?  That's a lot.  T'other day I drank 1/2 bottle of red plus a whole bottle of port - minus the half glass I managed to punch in delerium over the white dulux behind the computer...  ...but when I'm radged I reach for the cheese on toast!  And go up to 60Kg (before my morning post-coffee poo of course).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 21, 2008, 08:59:52 am
i think you are running to far or for too long time wise.it seems you go out and do at least 11/2 hours every time you run.
try something a long these lines
m.30 mins
w.45 mins
th.30 mins
sat.90 mins
this would give you the chance to recover also to run the shorter distances/efforts at a faster speed.
the other thing to try is doing some intervals.find a track or football pitch do a fast lap then jog/walk a lap repeat until you go outside 10% of your first effort.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 21, 2008, 10:20:36 am
Yessum Boss.

I'd given it some thought after Beef suggested it - but it really comes down to my boredom threshold and the need to feel all smiley after about an hour into a long run; I just don't get those feelings on short runs (I'm sure you know what I mean). 

I'm going to go w/ it though because the R hip joint hates me for not having orthotics yet and the long runs make me click a bit.

But back to food:  how would you fuel yourself for an short Iron Man?  Full glycogen reserves required I guess.

Interval laps:  by this 10% thing you mean.  Run a hard lap; stroll a lap;  run a hard lap (repeat this cycle) untill my times reach 1st lap + 10%.  Am I reading it right?

(I'm looking on GMAPS now to find a nice, long, unbroken route away from traffic lights:  not easy.)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on February 21, 2008, 03:07:40 pm
your on the money with the 10% thing.
with regard to training diet re triathlon days.i tended to follow the advice of dave scott who was the leading light of the day.it was veggie,high carb,low fat,medium protein.
lots of fruit,pulses,pasta,wholemeal pasta, brown rice,cottage cheese plus lots of salad and veggies.he used to recommend a tortilla stuffed with onions,peppers,letuce,cottage cheese and hot sauce.
i found it hard to stick to this long term so tended to go on it for a couple of weeks before a race.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on February 27, 2008, 07:26:30 pm
Cross country shoes - anyone got any recommendations? Was thinking of some inov-8 any thoughts appreciated.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 27, 2008, 08:56:48 pm
M'kay . . .

I see this 4 times a week thang will not be easy (but that's 'cos I just can't stop training inbetween!)

Mon ~ 30m running (fine)
Tue ~ 30m hard skipping (fine)
Wed ~ 50m running (Not fine!  Shins are bitchin' man, took 30mins before endorphins shut pain out.  Nb ~ cut skipping out or one short running session) - plus - 1 hour swimming (no impact = gorgeous floaty light, massive underwater gains since last time)

Thur ~ Eh?  OK, going to the beach.  Going is soft to softest, should be great, hips will love me.
Sat ~ On for half mazza. 

Under 58Kg first time in 3 years.   :great:

 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 29, 2008, 09:33:12 pm
M'kay . . .

Fraudini fell in a rock pool at the beach yesterday meaning I gave her my dry running pumps/socks & and such - no beach running was had.

Today I went out w/ the intention of getting my Thursday 30min run, which I did, and then some...   Tomorrow is a designated pool day so I thought I'd get a half-mazza in one day early.  It was a sublime leap year day, the sun was glorious, I just couldn't stop.

It was a keep on truckin' - day.  Jog till I drop.  I managed 3h 10m (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1662401).  16.65 miles / 26.8 Km.  (Started out @ 59.5Kg ended @ 57.3Kg.)  Nice and slow; regular cadence; no sweating/spitting/hoiking up greenies.  Went almost to my usual half-mazza distance then doubled back on myself as I felt unusually Nietzschean.  The back of my knees were in bulk, but I felt very strong mentally; which surely, is what it's all about, finished the last mile at a sprint as I felt I had more to give.  Slept the afternoon on a couch trying to digest the 3 egg omelette on Spanish bread I had afterwards.  Nice.

Next week will be spent in the pool on a zero-impact recovery drive, then onwards to a full marathon the following weekend.

I had an ace, full-on comedy moment:  I was weaving through a throng of rich German women, looking strong, fit; ripped: a veritable superman.  I swerved to avoid T-boning a couple and couldn't recover myself quick enough and face planted fully against a reinforced glass shop window full of naked mannequins and window-dressers.  Most embarrassing...  I hurt my nose...

Finally I've had a moment of clarity about this running regime.  I really don't care about times; the fitness is taking care of itself.  It's just about moving; burning past obese couples in Bentley Continentals along Hamburg Docks, fit as a butcher's dog.  Fast and free w/ banging techno on the mp3 player.  Simple pleasures.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on March 02, 2008, 04:11:47 pm
Just back from Llanelli (http://www.halfmarathon.org.uk/). Gorgeous setting, and great weather for February, if a bit windy for perfect conditions.
More to the point...

1:30:49! :bounce:

Yes yes fucking yes.

Don't know where that came from, its 17 minutes faster than my Bristol time in September, and gives an average quicker than any of my 6 mile "speed" sessions. I think that normally training on grass/trail, and hillier than today, probably made my training times a bit pessimistic, but I'm still amazed. Helps a lot having people to run with that help your pacing as well, as I'm normally shit at keeping a steady speed.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on March 03, 2008, 07:32:46 pm
Awesome Duma, you must be made-up.  What was the terrain like?


This running in a crowd thing:  I'm sure it's good for pacing, but don't you find it restrictive?  All those people in front and behind you.  I'm not sure I'd dig that.  I'm still searching for the ultimate techno mix for my mp3 player that I can use as a metronome - needs to start and end at the right pace - no joy yet.  I find I vary pace quite heavily, but what gets burnt early must be repayed later in the session and vice versa.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on March 03, 2008, 11:23:53 pm
Indeed I am  ;D. results up now, 89th!!
Terrain was nearly all tarmac bike path, with a couple of miles of hard packed dirt between miles 9 & 11, basically flat with a couple of brief hills for bridges over the railway.
The field size for the event was great ~ 1000 entries, which meant any crowding was only in the first mile, and by the third we'd strung out enough you certainly wouldn't feel crowded, probably about 1 runner every 4-5 metres or so I'd guess. Was totally different to doing Bristol, that was a much bigger race (I think about 10000), and I started much too far back so was pretty boxed in for the entire first half, and even after that had to weave a bit to get round people. I think starting in the right place for your expected time is important, as the numbers don't matter so much if you're all doing the same pace, though I prefer erring on the side of caution, and then overtaking, to being overtaken for the whole race cause I started too far forward.

Anyway, the running is on hold for a couple of weeks now, font next Monday!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on March 04, 2008, 08:53:25 am
Running in the crowds at the start of races really pisses me off. Last year I basically had to start at the back of the Sheffield half and spent about the first two miles finding abit of clear road to get a good pace going. People just seem to ignore where you are suppose to stand at the line up according to your predicted finish time. Luckily its electronically recorded and I got round in 1hr24, but I was walking for the first 300 yards or so and I think I spent a lot of energy getting around people at the start.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slackline on March 04, 2008, 12:48:50 pm
I don't think any of you will have much competition to worry about from this guy, but certainly something to aspire to (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7275861.stm).

The quote on finishing the half marathon "Where's my beer?"  :beer1:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on March 05, 2008, 12:46:22 am
Fatleg - the crowds are a pain, but seriously why where you starting toward the back of the field? 1:24 will get you an elite start in most races, so surely at least some of your difficulties where down to your own reticence?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on March 05, 2008, 05:52:33 pm
It was my first race for a few years and when I got there the queue back from the start had already formed and I couldn't get any further forward nearer to the start line.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on March 18, 2008, 01:32:50 pm
Another 2 hrs along the riverfront today (lots of chicks in sweet woolen suits, it's snowing occassionally in the Reich).  Felt easy after yesterdays 3km swim & spent some time sprinting to make it harder.  Might go climbing one day . . .
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on March 18, 2008, 02:15:20 pm
Th Sheffield Half Marathon is 41 days away and I've been thinking about making it my first half marathon without specifically training for it. The furthest I've gone so far is 6.5miles on Saturday at 9 minute miles. I was shattered. What is the minimum distance I should've covered prior to attempting a half marathon? Not looking for a short cut just wondering what is realistic.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on March 18, 2008, 02:25:56 pm
I think that if you can run that far at that speed and still feel ok (not totally shattered) then you should be ok to do the 1/2. One run of that distance each week for the next 5 weeks with shorter runs in between should see you alright  :thumbsup:
A longer run at some point will make you more confident about entering...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on March 18, 2008, 03:40:04 pm
Good to know. I'll try and put in a 8 miler before hand for confidence.

Think I might run the Graves park 10km the week before. Never ran at a proper event before. Entrance isn't cheap but it is for charity.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 02, 2008, 10:20:11 am
Seriously doubt I'll make the Sheff' mazza, I'll not be in Britain.

The atrocious weather we've had in The Reich over the last two weeks has really affected the running regime.  One minute blinding sunshine - the next?  Vicious hail - the next?  Blinding sunshine - the next?  Full day of snow.  Most erratic.

Easter AKA eat & drink till you can't move-week was just that.  Bang!  Add 2.5KG to my ass, Easter Bunny bitte . . .

I've been experimenting w/ maximum duration vs required recovery time.  I want the longest run possible (disliking short or fast runs).  Struggling to juggle adequate rest between these longer 2hr+ runs; the body seems to need 3 - 4 days rest which is a pain as I get the urge to run every other day.  Luckily, spazzing my thumb keeps me out of the pool affording the legs better rest.

Wish I was in Goa w/ Yoss  >:(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 02, 2008, 12:19:17 pm
Seriously doubt I'll make the Sheff' mazza, I'll not be in Britain.

I've been experimenting w/ maximum duration vs required recovery time. 

Shame about the half marathon dude (I'm still on target. 8miles on Sunday morning has boosted my confidence)

Regarding the required recovery time. Are you incorporating recovery runs? My recovery run on Monday was the first where I think it did what it says on the tin.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 02, 2008, 12:51:07 pm
I did try recovery runs a few weeks back.  Utterly forgotten now (mostly as I'm chasing a feeling not a position or against the clock.  I'm utterly disinterested in any form of competition.  I've lost interest in running in more than a pair.  I don't enjoy being crammed).  I'll try again w/ recovery runs, though if anyone has anything  ::) SCIENTIFIC to add re - recovery runs then I'm all ears.

I really do need 1st class trainers w/ orthotic soles but I simply don't have the $ now.

In fact I'm on the cusp of finding some form of protein shake to aid recovery.  As a veggie I struggle to find enough protein (w/ out fats and sugars w/ it).  I eat enough protein but the fatiness and sugariness is a chore.  Hence this idea.

And before anyone pies* up re: the piffle thread on Creatine.  It's not a protein.

Cool typo!  I mean PIPES.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: galpinos on April 02, 2008, 01:28:11 pm
I
In fact I'm on the cusp of finding some form of protein shake to aid recovery.  As a veggie I struggle to find enough protein (w/ out fats and sugars w/ it).  I eat enough protein but the fatiness and sugariness is a chore.  Hence this idea.



http://www.scienceinsport.com/

http://www.scienceinsport.com/rego.htm/

Their rego stuff is meant to be good. Their products seem to be aimed at athletes/sportspeople as opposed to gym junkies.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 02, 2008, 01:58:36 pm
Interesting recovery run article.

http://www.active.com/story.cfm?STORY_ID=13761&CHECKSSO=0&NUM=1&CATEGORY=Running
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 02, 2008, 02:52:44 pm
Cheers for that.  As much info as any amateur requires.

Additional research has shown that when athletes begin a workout with energy-depleted muscle fibers and lingering muscle damage from previous training, the brain alters the muscle recruitment patterns used to produce movement. Essentially, the brain tries to avoid using the worn-out muscle fibers and instead involves fresher muscle fibers that are less worn out precisely because they are less preferred under normal conditions. 

When your brain is forced out of its normal muscle recruitment patterns in this manner, it finds neuromuscular "shortcuts" that enable you to run more efficiently (using less energy at any given speed) in the future. Pre-fatigued running is sort of like a flash flood that forces you to alter your normal morning commute route. The detour seems a setback at first, but in searching for an alternative way to reach the office, you might find a faster way -- or at least a way that's faster under conditions that negatively affect your normal route.


Tips for effective use of recovery runs:

Whenever you run again within 24 hours of completing a key workout (or any run that has left you severely fatigued or exhausted), the follow-up run should usually be a recovery run.

Recovery runs are only necessary if you run four times a week or more.


If you run just three times per week, each run should be a "key workout" followed by a day off.

If you run four times a week, your first three runs should be key workouts and your fourth run only needs to be a recovery run if it is done the day after a key workout instead of the day after a rest day.

If you run five times a week, at least one run should be a recovery run.

If you run six or more times a week, at least two runs should be recovery runs.


There's seldom a need to insert two easy runs between hard runs, and it's seldom advisable to do two consecutive hard runs within 24 hours.

Recovery runs are largely unnecessary during base training, when most of your workouts are moderate in both intensity and duration. When you begin doing formal high-intensity workouts and exhaustive long runs, it's time to begin doing recovery runs in roughly a 1:1 ratio with these key workouts.

There are no absolute rules governing the appropriate duration and pace of recovery runs.


A recovery run can be as long and fast as you want, provided it does not affect your performance in your next scheduled key workout.

In most cases, however, recovery runs cannot be particularly long or fast without sabotaging recovery from the previous key workout or sabotaging performance in your next one.

A little experimentation is needed to find the recovery run formula that works best for each individual runner.

Don't be too proud to run very slowly in your recovery runs, as Kenya's runners are famous for doing. Even very slow running counts as pre-fatigued running practice that will yield improvements in your running economy, and running very slowly allows you to run longer without sabotaging your next key workout.

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 02, 2008, 03:16:53 pm
I'd heard these ere Kenyan runners were famous for running very fast. Didn't realise they were also famous for running very slow too.

Ever heard of Kenyan hills training. Goes something like this:
Find a really steep hill.
Sprint up it for 30 seconds.
Jog back down slowly.
Repeat until you can't run/throw up/faint/knackered.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 02, 2008, 03:37:39 pm
The Kenyan thing got me thinking.

Found this site http://www.kenyanway.com/Main.php

I need more time to look around it (recent office move has curtailed my usual habits) but figured anyone skivving can take a peek.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 02, 2008, 04:23:21 pm
The 20 Kenyan Commandments are interesting.  Lots of focus on hill training.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fatleg on April 04, 2008, 07:34:59 am
Aren't the Kenjan boys born at high altitude as well so they are better at dealing with the relative hypoxia encountered during running. Mate of mine was born at high altitude at was an awesome triathlete - first amateur to finish in the world iron man a few years back.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 04, 2008, 07:31:55 pm
I reached burnout today.  1 hour run yesterday including a hill sesh plus 2 hours plod today = fucked hOU.  Last 3 miles was  m u r d e r .

I'll take that recovery run tomorrow morning thanks. 25 minutes nice and slow, yes Sir.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 21, 2008, 08:40:28 am
did a 5 mile road race on wednesday in darkest doncaster (at a place called hayfield lakes)

flat and road - are in fact my ideas of hell - but in the interests of having a bit of a bash (and hopefully getting a bit faster) went along in the hail and rain

was indeed thoroughly miserable, spent most of the time sporting a snot goatee and a pained expression whilst wheezing alarmingly

did manage 36:56 - which was definitely better than i was expecting - and the endorphins afterwards made it just about worth while - the next one is this wednesday  :-\

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 21, 2008, 02:08:47 pm
It's baking in the Reich today.

Felt a bit sluttish from too much strudel and Fraudini's wunderbar selbstgemacht pizza of yesterday . . .   So this morn I togged myself up good:  full tracksuit, thick cotton vest underneath, thick hoody over the top.

Jogged for 2h 10m and returned a whole 2KG lighter, somewhat delirious . . .   
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 21, 2008, 07:13:06 pm
Scheißfick . . .

Just spotted a poster for the Hamburg full marathon on the 27th April.  I'm well-psyched to enter.  Entry is now closed   >:(

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 23, 2008, 01:34:41 pm
Well I managed 203rd at Graves park (the course was v hard) on Sunday in a chip time of 53mins 19secs. Quite happy with that although I don't feel ready for the half marathon on Sunday. That'll have to wait until next year. Going to consolidate at 10km this year.

Anyway less about me. Tried some of these badgers on this lunchtime. http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/technology/faqs_mechanics.cfm (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/technology/faqs_mechanics.cfm) I can tell you they were pretty comfy and although weird I reckon running in them could be beneficial for some, but maybe not all, people.

Anyone know owt about them other than they're not cheap?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 23, 2008, 01:36:37 pm
PS the literature that comes with them says they can be used for bouldering.  :lol:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 23, 2008, 07:05:00 pm
I'd use those pumps for beach running, no sweat.  But for concrete?  No fucking way.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 28, 2008, 09:24:03 pm
Well, the Hamburg full mazza was won by a Dutch guy in 2:07!!  He beat many Kenyans.  Yes, he was tall, thin w/ a big stride.  Take home = €120,000.  16.5K runners.

I note that I am only a full hour and then some off the full-mazza pace.  I feel next year it shall be mine . . .  MUArR HA HA HA H A AH HA!!

 8)

So!  Fellow athletes!  What happened in the Sheff half-Mazzeur?  Oui?  Non?  Que?  N'est pas? Bien?  Poo poo?  Eh?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 28, 2008, 09:43:21 pm
well didn't do the sheffield half

did do another 5 mile race on wednesday and managed to beat my last time by 17 seconds (over a hillier course) - so now on 36:39  ;D

instead of hail was bizarrely warm (think i preferred the hail) -

anyway saturday thinking of doing the coniston fell race - a mere 9 miles - but an oh so daunting 3500 ft of climb  :'(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on April 29, 2008, 01:03:28 pm
anyway saturday thinking of doing the coniston fell race - a mere 9 miles - but an oh so daunting 3500 ft of climb  :'(

That's a good race, it was my first lakes race. All really runnable, with a good descent off the old man at the end. I was hoping to be there this year, but injury has prevented me racing.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 29, 2008, 06:01:32 pm
cheers graeme thats good to know  :thumbsup:

got my pete bland race map through the post!

was up in kentmere just walking the horseshoe saturday - and it was howling/hailing/raining - really poor visibility - we sacked it off and came back down the valley - made me really appreciate how serious it can be up on the hills! did some extra bearing taking practice!!

was targeting fairfield horseshoe race - then it turned out that boyfriends family of fell runners are all doing this one so it seemed a shame not to join in.

have you done fairfield too? is the up a bit steeper?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on April 29, 2008, 09:08:31 pm
I've not run the race route, I've run the standard walkers route a couple of times. The race is slightly different at the start, which you probably know. Again it's really runnable apart from the initial climb onto Heron Pike/ Nab Scar whichever one it ends up at. Really nice run, good for when you've got a couple of hours free in Ambleside. It's the second year I'm missing Fairfield due to injury/illness  :'(

Anyway enjoy the race, it's another goody, hell they're all good in the lakes. :thumbsup:

Oh word to the wise on the coniston race it's a long pull up onto Wetherlam, take it easy, don't try and run all of it unless your fit enough, I'm not.
Let us know how you get on, hope the weather's not too crap.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 06, 2008, 08:13:08 am
wow - i think i nearly walkied the whole thing!

wasn't trying to run up wetherlam, but think i did walk too fast! was absolutely destroyed for all the rest of the race - the nice bit of the down was somewhat marred by amazing blood blister formations and the fact that my legs  seemed to belong to somebody else - i was never going to be great on the steeper sections of descent - but it was a bit depressing shuffling down the smoother bit feeling sorry for myself!

also managed to get sunburn!

can't wait til fairfield!!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 06, 2008, 08:30:47 am
Excellent, glad you enjoyed it. The steeper descents take some getting used to, but once you suss out how to run them they're fine.
Managed my first fell run for a bout three weeks yesterday with the dog, my God it was hard work.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 06, 2008, 09:13:53 am
what is your injury?

some one broke their leg on the descent on saturday!  :o

i was going too slowly to be in any danger!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 06, 2008, 10:12:23 am
I think I've had a calf injury for a while now, it doesn't seem to be shifting at all, could have soemthing to do with the fact I kepp running on it ::)
I say think because the muscle never feels that sore, I suspect it might tendinitis in my ankle.

I heard about the bloke who broke his leg on the fell runners forum, he didn't seem to bothered about for some reason.
I guess it's just one of the perils of fell running.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on May 06, 2008, 02:52:13 pm
Nice to see other people use this thread.

Recovery runs:  had my first proper one today.  I'd read that you shouldn't bother unless you run at least 4 times a week anyway, and they should only be employed after key runs.

I'm not sure it's true about the 4 runs rule.  I tend to run for 2 hours a pop upto 3 times a week.  Yesterday I pushed to 3 hours and was psyched to break my endurance record but just couldn't face continuing for a further half hour - especially as I was back on local turf having run across a city and back.  Felt mothered afterwards, so gave it 45 minutes this morning too.  Upshot = I feel great.  May very well take the opportunity to head out again tomorrow and capitalise on it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 06, 2008, 03:26:36 pm
I'm not sure I would go for another run after three hours and then a 45 minute run. I'd take a days rest and go again on Thursday.
Resting is an important part of training after all  ;)
For what it's worth I 'm convinced my injury came off the back of two up-tempo one hour fell runs followed by a recovery run, followed by another fell run. I felt good at the start of each run, however end result was my monthly milage dropped by 50% for april.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on May 06, 2008, 10:43:43 pm
Graeme/jfw et al - having been suitably inspired by "feet in the clouds"  (and a quite glorious 9 mile sundowner through the woods and along the river this evening) I'm up for having a go at this fell running lark. Any recommendations -gentle- for a beginner? I'm in reasonableish shape (1:31 half) but not done too much serious hill work, my navigation is pretty nonexistent, and although most of my circuits are off road they're generally on pretty well maintained trails. (I'm in Bristol - so The Peak would be better than Lakes/Scotland)

Don't know how these two compare to real fell races, but they're both on my list...
man v horse (http://www.green-events.co.uk/eventinfo.php?eventdetails=32)
race the train (http://www.racethetrain.com/)

Liked this btw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQaZxNLi-8Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQaZxNLi-8Q) and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0avUqAYa2bw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0avUqAYa2bw)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 07, 2008, 04:54:17 am
Duma

FRA calendar here (click on the month in little text to go to the right month)

http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/2008races.htm

They're all over the country - lots of evening races too through the summer (i'm doing the tigers todger tonight if my achy ankle isn't too bad)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on May 07, 2008, 06:54:06 am
I'm not sure I would go for another run after three hours and then a 45 minute run. I'd take a days rest and go again on Thursday.

You're confused.  Monday = 3 hours trot (I wouldn't call it running).  Tuesday = 45 min recovery run.  From what I gather, the science behind the RR is forcing your muscles to use untrained fibres ie: the muscles that did not get burned during your key run, and in doing so sets your muscles up better for the next round.

If you rest for a whole day and then take a RR the trained fibres would recover normally and the RR would be pointless.

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on May 07, 2008, 07:57:56 am
Houdini, I think Graeme was suggesting you rest for a day after the RR not between the key run and RR.

Mon - 3hrs
Tues - 45min RR
Wed - REST
Thurs - Run

Currently I'm going through a tough stage where every run feels like hard work. I'm not getting any enjoyment out of them at all. Plus it doesn't help that the weather is so hot (for me). Any tips on running when it feels tough and also tips for training when its hot (well too hot for me)?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 07, 2008, 08:49:20 am
That's right, I was suggesting a rest day after your recovery run, apologies for the confusion.
I see your point that resting before the RR would be pointless.

With regards to starting fell running, I just went out and did some, but have the distinct advantage that I live in the west pennines and know my local area pretty so just went for it.
It might be worth getting in touch with a club, you seem to have some talent 1:31 for a half is a lot faster than I could manage, then again I've only ever run that sort of distance on the fells.
I don't know the Bristol area at all, but in the fra mag there's a lot of discussion about running on coastal paths and how it's a good substitute for fell running if you can get enough climbing in. Have a look on the FRA forum they're not too bad on there and they may be able to help.

My only tips for running in hot weather are: wear a hat, run early in the morning, never run around lunch time, and drink lots of water.
For the lack of motivation thing I don't know the onlything I suggest is force yourself to get out eventually it becomes easier and you start to enjoy it again.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on May 07, 2008, 09:33:12 am
Hot weather tips?  Well it's shorts, vest, mini-socks and #2 all over-time for me.  Second the morning/evening idea.  I'll have my morning coffee to wake up (maybe a little fruit); drink at least a litre of herb tea w/ honey over an hour or so; make my ablutions/lighten oneself; have a little more water before leaving base; run in a spot I can take a piss or two; & carry a €2 coin to buy liquid if it gets too sweaty and the opportunity arises.

Motivation?  I've said it before but it's worth repeating:  mp3 player & stirring music.  Something made w/ machines (no Jew's harp or hippy-didge); something to trance-out to.  Running without music is ghastly.   :thumbsdown:


The only problems I'm having are impact-related (being a cityslicker/concrete runner) and not stretching enough after running (easily the most tedious part of any sport IMO).

For the record I did another 45 mins this morning to make 3 days on . . .  Not something I'll be doing again . . .   

*twinge/gripe*
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 07, 2008, 09:41:47 am


Motivation?  I've said it before but it's worth repeating:  mp3 player & stirring music.  Something made w/ machines (no Jew's harp or hippy-didge); something to trance-out to.  Running without music is ghastly.   :thumbsdown:

Never ran with music, tend to use my run to wake up or relax, I prefer to listen to bird song and wildlife when out running, also gives me a heads up when some dozy shite decides to let their dog have a go at me.

and not stretching enough after running (easily the most tedious part of any sport IMO).

For the record I did another 45 mins this morning to make 3 days on . . .  Not something I'll be doing again . . .   

*twinge/gripe*


I totally agree, stretching is so dull, yet your supposed to do loads, the only time I bother is when I'm injured :-[
3 days together is hard, not something I do very often, four is even harder, and if you get good weather it becomes even harder not to go out.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 13, 2008, 09:51:29 am
on the subject of hot weather - was foolish enough to go on a club run on sunday!

scorchio!

9:30 - 11:30

was pretty bloomin hot, especially out on the moor - thankfully dropped back through some woodland - ended up dunking my head in a few streams - blimey if its that hot at the weekend for fairfield (don't think its meant to be quite that hot) i might have to take a drink (would have quite liked one at coniston to be honest!)

had some juice in a screw top bag in my bum bag sunday (just trying to get more used to wearing it) caned it all really quickly

all the sun tan lotion sweated off! but i also think it might be worse if it stayed on (as it feels like it might stop sweat cooling  you??
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 13, 2008, 01:12:23 pm
Sunday was a hot one, I'm glad I had a hangover and didn't have to go out, I went over loughrigg with the dog, a black lab, on Saturday and that was bad enough for the hour we were out. He suffers in the heat, so I let him explore any water we came across, good excuse for a rest.
I'd suggest a hat over sun cream when running, protects your head and you don't feel all grimey and horrible.
I wear a buff when I run in the sun, turn it into a skull cap kind of thing, so it protects my head and ears. There's nowt worse

I think it's supposed to cool down for weekend, apparently one trick for fell running is to drink loads before you go, I'm not keen on this sounds like you could make yourself quite ill from all that liquid sloshing around. I usually take a half litre platy when I've done fairfield it's stood me in good stead. I know this is no help now, but it's better to drink before you become thirsty, that way you can avoid drinking all your fluid in one go.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 20, 2008, 12:46:28 pm
fairfield race was awesome, cooler weather than coniston, and awesome views, with just a bit of clag on the top to add an atmospheric touch - runners disappearing into the mist!

(http://www.keswicklakedistrict.co.uk/fellraces/ff08/images/IMG_1125_jpg.jpg)

really pleased with how i ran, paced myself loads better (and its a generally more runnable course) - only downside was twisting my ankle about 2 miles from the end! tried to run on it but could only walk  :'(

did manage to finish, considering this, my time wasn't too bad! think i might have been 10-15 minutes faster without accident.

so i am icing right now, fortunately been able to work from home - went for hypochondriac xray (just for peace of mind that it wasn't broken).

just frustrating to be going well, have to find a wobble board! maybe try keep fit on bike.

you all set for duddon graeme? how is your injury?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 20, 2008, 01:11:39 pm


really pleased with how i ran, paced myself loads better (and its a generally more runnable course) - only downside was twisting my ankle about 2 miles from the end! tried to run on it but could only walk  :'(

did manage to finish, considering this, my time wasn't too bad! think i might have been 10-15 minutes faster without accident.

so i am icing right now, fortunately been able to work from home - went for hypochondriac xray (just for peace of mind that it wasn't broken).

just frustrating to be going well, have to find a wobble board! maybe try keep fit on bike.

you all set for duddon graeme? how is your injury?

That's a shame, I really enjoy the run off from Dove Pike. I wouldn't have thought it would be too long before your out running again. Have you any idea what your next race is likely to be now?
As for duddon, I think that's disappeared in a puff of smoke, the furthest I've ran lately has been about 8 miles and very limited climbing. I'm now hoping for three shires, it's a long way off but I think that's the next most do-able race in the lakes.
My legs been feeling better and I've been doing more stretching. It's an absolute nightmare trying to stretch before running, the dog starts whinging about the fact he's having to wait to get out >:(
Hoping to get down the peak on Saturday and do the first half of the Edale skyline. Should either kill or cure me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on May 20, 2008, 01:15:06 pm
Love the photo. Hard luck with the ankle JFW. Any particular reason for twist? Thought I was going to twist mine on the way down the hill at the Chatsworth 10km on Sunday. A combination of tired legs, running too fast and uneven ground isn't great.

Kudos for finishing with the injury too. What was the distance and your time (if you don't mind me asking)?

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 20, 2008, 02:29:33 pm

 Have you any idea what your next race is likely to be now?

Had entertained thoughts of duddon short (now off menu) but had social committments, also that new great lakes run (though crazy amounts of climb) 13miles / 21km 7000feet / 2000m

Venue: Stool End Farm, Great Langdale 276057
http://secure.lakesrunner.com/welcome-lakes-runner-online-great-lakes-c-126_378.html

21 june so maybe  bit soon -


Quote
As for duddon, I think that's disappeared in a puff of smoke, the furthest I've ran lately has been about 8 miles and very limited climbing.
what about short for you? or just not rushing in?

 
Quote from: Plattsy
Any particular reason for twist? Thought I was going to twist mine on the way down the hill at the Chatsworth 10km on Sunday. A combination of tired legs, running too fast and uneven ground isn't great.

Kudos for finishing with the injury too. What was the distance and your time (if you don't mind me asking)?

i'm sure it was partly being a bit tired - but mainly unlucky - coming down coniston the other week, i was much more tired, but much slower as a consequence

fairfield is 10 miles, 3000ft climb - did it in 2:21:54 - think i would have been 10-12 minute faster without the walking for last 2 miles - though no idea really
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on May 20, 2008, 02:53:52 pm
I did think about the short, I'll see how I go at the weekend first.
I also thought about the great lakes run and decided against it, I'd rather do something easier like Borrowdale or the full Duddon first  :jaw:

2:21 is a reasonable time for Fairfield, my mates fiancee was only a couple of minutes faster than you and I don't think she was injured.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on June 04, 2008, 03:17:39 pm
went for a test run (ahem) monday night - couple of road miles - not too bad a bit sore - could tell not ready for off road yet (and not too much on road running).

anyway good that its getting progressively better  (if it does seem slow process)

went doing easy traversing at wall last night - pumped out of my mind on the kids boulder   :shrug: trying to do arcing as described by serpico - tres boring (but low ankle risk)

more bike for me probably (wish appetite had reduced a bit quicker in line with loss of exercise!)

did you do duddon short graeme?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: exPat on June 04, 2008, 03:25:46 pm
Never thought I'd start running, but I did & really enjoyed it. One week later I had a stress fracture to my tibia  :boohoo:
Could this have been as a result of my shoes? I have Salomon XA Pro's & run on forest tracks.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.outdoorsinc.com/Activity/images/salomon-xa-pro-3d-trail-running-7084-f_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.outdoorsinc.com/Activity/Trail-Running.cfm&h=284&w=420&sz=20&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=NObBVdtyMMkfCM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3DXA%2BPro%2B3D%2Bsalomon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.outdoorsinc.com/Activity/images/salomon-xa-pro-3d-trail-running-7084-f_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.outdoorsinc.com/Activity/Trail-Running.cfm&h=284&w=420&sz=20&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=NObBVdtyMMkfCM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3DXA%2BPro%2B3D%2Bsalomon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

I hope it's not the shoes, they cost me an arm & a leg   ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Cookie on June 04, 2008, 03:36:15 pm
Never thought I'd start running, but I did & really enjoyed it. One week later I had a stress fracture to my tibia  :boohoo:
Could this have been as a result of my shoes? I have Salomon XA Pro's & run on forest tracks.

I hope it's not the shoes, they cost me an arm & a leg   ;)

Hi exPat,
Sorry to hear about your stress fracture, hope it's not too painful!  I doubt it's the fault of the shoes, I've been running X-country in Salomons for years with no problems.  You should really speak with your orthopod or physio about it.  If you hadn't run much in the past but then you started running a lot, that's a well known cause of stress fractures.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: exPat on June 04, 2008, 03:53:24 pm
Thanks Cookie, good to hear I've not bought shite shoes. I hadn't run for years & was doing 5Km 'jogs' most days, but at a gentle pace.
I'm looking forward to re-starting my running & want to avoid any repeat injury ... so a dumb question: I noticed BenF said he runs on his toes whereas I run on my heel first. Is there a correct way or is it a personal thing?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on June 04, 2008, 03:57:09 pm
Never thought I'd start running, but I did & really enjoyed it. One week later I had a stress fracture to my tibia  :boohoo:


sorry about your leg

What might cause a stress fracture?
-Overloading the bone by continuous muscle contractions for example in running.
-Stress distribution in the bone altered because of continuing to run when the muscles are particularly fatigued. (Muscles are unable to take some of the stress so rely more on the bone).
-A sudden change in running surface for example going from grass training to lots of track or road running.
-Lots of small impacts on the bone even though they may be very small, a cumulative effect can build up.

http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/front/lowerleg/stressfracture.htm (http://reference)

also exarcebated if you are a girly with low bone density

prob need to lay off running 8 weeks
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on June 04, 2008, 04:02:44 pm
If you hadn't run much in the past but then you started running a lot, that's a well known cause of stress fractures.

Oh . . .

Erm . . .   Still running, couple of hours this morning.  I like chasing people on bikes, preferably chicks.  There's this road here: long & punctuated by traffic lights, great for shaming riders and feeling damaged as one waits for the lights.  Overtook a few today and nearly had a dude who was being pulled along by a dog, but the pooch was just too good.

Nearly killed myself w/ running last week.  The weather was top notch, I just ran along the river in a techno haze until I realised I was in new territory and couldn't cheat w/ the trains for the return.  Fool, I was running for nearly four hours; knees and hips felt savage for a few days after . . .

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on June 04, 2008, 04:36:33 pm
bone density increases as you adapt to more loading - stress fractuers happen when the bones don't beef up fast enough in line with increase in loading.

i would think that how fast your bones adapt (and starting bone density) will be factors
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Cookie on June 04, 2008, 05:08:38 pm
I agree with jfw about bone density, makes perfect sense.

On the subject of heel striking vs running on the toes, my coach used to tell me that running on the toes is for sprinting and for building up speed quickly, whereas a (bit of a) heel strike is essential for steady distance running.  The tricky part being that a heavy heel strike is bad, and anyone doing a lot of running needs to learn to load their weight properly (ie making sure their body is upright, landing mainly on the forefoot but using the entire foot to propel them as they run, using their arms properly etc)

People are different though.  My old training buddy (who went on to become a much more successful and prolofic triathlete than me) always struggled with sprints/strides, as her natural style was to land heavily on the entire foot.  I could woop her ass over 400m, but any further and her strange style (coupled with her incredible stamina and willpower) came into its own.

If you plan to run a lot, it might be worth paying for a few sessions with a professional coach to get your technique right.  I used to do a bit of coaching (before I got a proper job), and it's amazing how many people have terrible technique in both their running and their stretches. A bit of instruction can make a huge difference, and prevent self-inflicted injuries.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on June 05, 2008, 08:11:06 am
Changing technique sounds easier than it probably is. Changing something which you learnt as a child and which has moulded you from a bio-mechanical point of view has got to be extremely difficult. Would a few coach sessions really make a difference?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slackline on June 05, 2008, 09:30:23 am
Changing technique sounds easier than it probably is. Changing something which you learnt as a child and which has moulded you from a bio-mechanical point of view has got to be extremely difficult. Would a few coach sessions really make a difference?


Probably not, but the coaching sessions would identify potential problems and advise on how to correct them, its then down to the individual to put that into practice in their own time/training.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatkid2000 on June 06, 2008, 08:29:04 pm
Don't forget Stress fractures can occur in well trained individuals - one of The British hopefuls of the olympics who was due to compete in the heptathlon is injured with a stress fracture, although there could be other factors at work here. It is well reported that a high percentage of female athletes have eating disorders and thus overtrain and don't eat properly, this combo means that they lose the protective effect that oestrogen normally provides to bone due to not menstruating. Poor nutritional imput also loeads to osteopaenia in these athletes.

Stress fractures historically also occur in soldiers - although poor boots are probably a contributing factor here. Stress fracture used to be known as marching fractures.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Adam Lincoln on June 08, 2008, 08:23:15 pm
I always keep trying to get into running, for a good base layer of aerobic fitness, and in my old age my metabolism is slowing, so to keep the weight off.

I usually end up going out once, usually a 3 mile run'ish, it hurts too much or feels really hard and i give up. How quickly does it become easier. Also my lower back tends to hurt and my legs are sore for a few days after... Obviously this then affects my climbing, so not good. Any tips?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on June 09, 2008, 08:00:26 am
I always keep trying to get into running, for a good base layer of aerobic fitness, and in my old age my metabolism is slowing, so to keep the weight off.

I usually end up going out once, usually a 3 mile run'ish, it hurts too much or feels really hard and i give up. How quickly does it become easier. Also my lower back tends to hurt and my legs are sore for a few days after... Obviously this then affects my climbing, so not good. Any tips?

3 miles sounds like it is a little too far at the moment. Try cutting your distance and pace a little. Also if you're running one 3 mile run per week maybe increase the frequency a little too.

How about trying 1.5/2 miles twice a week at a pace slightly slower than you're current pace. Try this for 3/4 weeks and then try the 3 mile again at the same pace as the 1.5/2 miles and see how it goes. Also try to run different routes to lessen boredom, running a new route can sometimes feel easier because you have more to occupy the mind.

My lower back used to hurt when I first starting running. A colleague who runs alot thought it might be because I lean forward when I run. This over time has stopped hurting when I run now. So I figure my back is now strong enough to cope with my style.

I reckon it started feeling easier after about 6 months. At first adding an extra mile to the current distance of say 2 miles is hard because the percentage increase is huge (50%) but as your distance improves adding extra distance becomes easier.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on June 09, 2008, 08:09:39 am
*  Are you vegetarian (getting enough recovery protein)?


*  Footwear:  maybe a change to a more cushioning-style or cushioning/supportive shoe could help.


*  Stretching apres-run:  are you doing enough?  I do 6 different leg stretches (plus upper body stretches) and aim for no less than 20 minutes worth.

*  A move to skipping might suit you (or substitute one run for a skip session).  
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on June 09, 2008, 08:28:37 am
my guess, if you are a reasonably fit climber (used to walking at least a little bit to get to crags), is that 3 miles isn't too far - but that you are running too fast. sometimes if you are fit but your body isn't used to running - you can push too hard to fast - and whilst your lungs/heart can cope - your legs/knees/feet back take longer to get used to the idea.

loads of running web sites post good beginners programmes - but if they are too easy they may be boring to you. loads include a walking running phase to build up to just running. probably by reading/trying them you might be able to  judge if they are right for you (and adapt them as appropriate)

i would suggest trying to go out for 20 minutes building up to half an hour, (don't worry too much about distance ...yet) run at a comfortable pace where you could maintain a conversation. most sources seem to suggest increasing milage by only a small percentage each week.

try to get out 3 times a week at least - and try to build one run up to be a slightly longer run (i.e. at least 40 minutes preferably more)

try to run off road - so much less punishing than tarmac (get the right shoes for whichever surface you're on)

you want to run as cross training - so you don't want to push too hard - as with most things when you first start you will probably make good (and motivating) progress. even though your main focus is climbing - you might want to dedicate a period of time, like 3 - 4 weeks to get into running (maybe when you are giving your tendons/fingers a rest anyway).

the main danger of running for cross training is that it is dangerously addictive - and you can find yourself in phases of it being your preferred sport.  :o

sometimes getting carried away on an "easy" run, can blow the next days planned climbing session (but it was great!).




Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Adam Lincoln on June 09, 2008, 10:24:54 am
Thanks a lot guys, ill have a ponder on those, and let them marinate!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on June 09, 2008, 11:46:10 am
the main danger of running for cross training is that it is dangerously addictive - and you can find yourself in phases of it being your preferred sport.  :o

So very true.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on June 30, 2008, 12:05:02 pm
well 6 weeks after doing ankle - managed to complete first off road run yesterday!

did actually nearly walk down all the hills (i forgot how tiring it is going so slowly down hill).

last week did a road relay (3 x 3.5 miles) - and managed my lap in 26:46 (7:33 min/mile) not bad for first race back (but slower than 5 mile times from a few months ago (7:20min/mile). getting there i suppose...

upcoming challenge set by crazy mate - thinking about doing "hanging stone leap" challenge in August - 24 miles off road (but not as much climbas fell, fell races) - further than i've run - so something to think about.  :o
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on July 17, 2008, 04:21:54 pm
Right now, I'm the fucking king of the Edgebaston Reservoir racetrack.

 8)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on July 22, 2008, 11:10:34 am
Could anyone recommend a few up and coming fell races for a complete novice?

I've been running for some time now and would like to test myself on some tougher terrain.

I've spotted a short race called the Trunce 7 in August as a possibility. Any others I could consider?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on July 22, 2008, 01:10:49 pm
List of races here:
http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/2008races.htm (http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/2008races.htm)

Where are you based?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on July 22, 2008, 01:22:49 pm
List of races here:
http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/2008races.htm (http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/2008races.htm)

Where are you based?

Thanks Graeme.

I'm based in North Sheffield.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: pete D on July 22, 2008, 02:26:48 pm
I've not done the Trunce but these are all good (see Grame's link for dates etc.).  They're all on weekday evenings and about 4-5 miles long.  I think they would all make good introductions. 

Robin Hood 'monumental' - fast longish course, 2 hills, neither of them very long or steep.

Stoney - a big hill on tarmac to start, rest of course mostly on hard trails.  BBQ at The Moon afterwards.

Bradwell - probably my favourite.  Runs through the village, steep hill, then fast open running around the top of the hill, fast descent and lap of the sports ground to finish.  Raffle!

Eccles Pike - very short.  leggit up the hill, then back the way you came.

Dennis Stitt - Holmfirth but no further to get to than some of the peak races.  Unusual cos it's 2 laps.  Entry gets you a free pint!

Pilsley - longish and fast, feels more like x country than a fell race.  Goes through the Chatsworth Estate.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on July 22, 2008, 04:55:06 pm
Thanks alot Pete. I'll look into these.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Falling Down on July 23, 2008, 11:21:10 am

Eccles Pike - very short.  leggit up the hill, then back the way you came.


My first ever fell race in 1990 and what made me end up moving to Buxworth. I now live underneith the Pike, ran up and down it this morning and am looking up at it now through my office window  :)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on August 06, 2008, 08:29:44 am
Ran the Trunce on Monday. 4.25m with 550' of ascent. It was my first fell race and it felt hard. I came in at 37:29 and I was completely knackered. The route takes in alot of different terrain: tracks, road, grass, single track footpath and four river Don crossings (Fun!). There is about 5 or 6 styles which unfortunately become bottlenecks. I think I might do it again but with the bottleneck styles and difficulty passing on the single track steep parts I imagine it is a course which can frustrate.

Thinking about running the Dennis Stitt next Thursday although with 850' ascent in 5 miles it could break me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on August 06, 2008, 09:32:54 am
river crossings sound fun!

did bradwell last night and stoney on thursday

last night was hard. had day off on monday and went for a bimbly slow run from edale to hathersage, via ringing roger, winhill and shatton mast - did it ridiculously slowly but was destroyed during race.

stoney no-one i knew was there so ran totally my own pace, at bradwell a lady from my club was there who i'm normally quite even with - made the mistake of trying to keep up with her, then suffering the whole 2nd half of the race, then on the final lap of the field - half way round i had to walk (it was either that or be sick or pass out or possibly both) - everyone watching, 4 or 5 people overtook me and i couldn't care less - near the funnel i manged to summon up a bit of a jog - never felt so trashed! 38.09 i think.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on August 06, 2008, 10:00:02 am
Some pictures from the Trunce on Monday.

http://www.flamingphotography.co.uk/portfolio37343.html (http://www.flamingphotography.co.uk/portfolio37343.html)

There is a picture of me in there looking like I'm in pain. I was. You will probably work out which. My face gives it away.

river crossings sound fun!

did bradwell last night and stoney on thursday

last night was hard. had day off on monday and went for a bimbly slow run from edale to hathersage, via ringing roger, winhill and shatton mast - did it ridiculously slowly but was destroyed during race.

stoney no-one i knew was there so ran totally my own pace, at bradwell a lady from my club was there who i'm normally quite even with - made the mistake of trying to keep up with her, then suffering the whole 2nd half of the race, then on the final lap of the field - half way round i had to walk (it was either that or be sick or pass out or possibly both) - everyone watching, 4 or 5 people overtook me and i couldn't care less - near the funnel i manged to summon up a bit of a jog - never felt so trashed! 38.09 i think.

If you're normally even with her was it a mistake to try and keep up or were you just having an off day?

I could feel Sundays bike ride in my legs when I started the Trunce on Monday. I won't be doing that again. My legs felt tired before I started.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on August 09, 2008, 07:58:24 pm

If you're normally even with her was it a mistake to try and keep up or were you just having an off day?



was a mistake - cos i was having a knackered day (at least i should have realised i would be knackered - sometimes there's nothing in the legs for no discernible reason! i hate when you can't even get properly out of breath on a run cos your legs are too tired/you don't have enough energy - i.e. you don't get the same endorphins cos you can't get to the same effort level - don't know if you know what i mean?)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on August 11, 2008, 07:58:56 am

If you're normally even with her was it a mistake to try and keep up or were you just having an off day?



was a mistake - cos i was having a knackered day (at least i should have realised i would be knackered - sometimes there's nothing in the legs for no discernible reason! i hate when you can't even get properly out of breath on a run cos your legs are too tired/you don't have enough energy - i.e. you don't get the same endorphins cos you can't get to the same effort level - don't know if you know what i mean?)

Yep. I know exactly what you mean. Can't find a rhythem, legs don't recover after a tough section, having to try loads harder than normal, generally demoralising. Something like that?

Going to run the Dennis Stitt at Holmefirth on Thursday. 5m/850'. I'm hoping with two days rest I'll be in better shape than the Trunce.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on August 13, 2008, 12:45:30 pm
its official

i've got my number for hanging stone leap on saturday

24 miles!! holy cow  :o

now i need to find a survival bag to carry as part of the required kit...

blimey.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on August 13, 2008, 01:30:31 pm
Right now, I'm the fucking king of the Edgebaston Reservoir racetrack.

 8)

you back in brum fraulein?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on August 15, 2008, 10:33:42 am
Good luck jfw! Sounds like a tough race.

Ran the Dennis Stitt last night. Came in at 46:11 and felt completely knackered. I started with a slight thigh strain and had to manage that a bit. Even so I'm not sure I would've gone much quicker. Think I need shoes with more grip to help alleviate slipping on steep muddy footpaths too.

Managed a strong finish (Ran the last part of the hill as strong as I could and probably flat out for about the last 200 yards). After my friend suggested I wasn't trying hard enough during the race to have such a strong finish left in me.

Is this right?

Is it better to run within your threshold limit and kick for home when you think you're capable or simply got for it from the off?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: pete D on August 15, 2008, 11:14:19 am
Hi Platsy

I was at the Dennis Stitt last night as well (38.44).  You're dead right about lack of grip.  It was like running on a treadmill going up that track and I had a few moments descending through those fields!  Did you get your free pint and T shirt?  I've started going off fast at the start of the short races to avoid getting caught in bottle necks.  That usually ensures I'm completely wasted at the end but can usually hang on to my position.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on August 15, 2008, 11:55:53 am
Hey Pete,

Good time. I got a long sleeve white t-shirt but no free pint  :'( I needed a yellow ticket and organiser informed me only the first 20 got a free pint.

I'm running the Trunce again on Monday. Hoping to knock a 1 minute or two of my last time and I might set off fast too because the styles cause a situation more akin to the post office early on a Thursday morning.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on August 15, 2008, 01:38:03 pm
Good luck jfw! Sounds like a tough race.


Cheers Plattsy - its a LDWA (long distance walkers association) challenge rather than a race proper - you get a number and a time and have to clip in at check points but its not as racy as a real race - also terrain looks a bit easier than a lakes fell race for example.

still gripped!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on November 03, 2008, 02:00:44 am
jfw - how did hanging stone leap go?

been looking at some off-road shoes since it's got muddy, anybody used Brooks (http://www.brooksrunning.co.uk/products/footware/for-men/grit/item/cascadia-3-2.html)?
(http://www.brooksrunning.co.uk/fileadmin/2008-winter/products/pictures/41232481.jpg)

Will end up doing a fair proportion of paved miles so looking for some sort of cushioning.

Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatkid2000 on November 03, 2008, 09:23:17 am
Not a big fan of Brooks shows myself. I've got a pair of those Inov8 shoes - which seem pretty good off road & in mud. I had a pair of Saucony off road shows a couple of years ago which also seemed pretty good, but died after one winters use. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 03, 2008, 09:52:39 am
eh up duma!

hangingstone leap was great - but i picked up a knee niggle (ITBS) - partly from upping my milage too quickly I think and partly from wearing walshes (which i love, but which have zero cushioning) over such a long distance.

If you really want to run in mud I would get some proper fell shoes - i love my walshes, innovates get a good rep - choiceall depend on your foot shape.

if you are linking up sections of mud with a little bit of road (or doing more than a couple of hours at once) - i would get a shoe (more of a trail shoe) with slightly more cushioning - like the heavier innovates or the montrail highlander (which i am just breaking for next LDWA event on saturday).

Pete Bland website gives a good breakdown of the sorts of shoe

Trail shoes:
http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/474/798/802/index.htm (http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/474/798/802/index.htm)

Fell/Trail shoes
http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/474/798/801/index.htm (http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/474/798/801/index.htm)

Fell shoes
http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/474/2/index.htm (http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/trolleyed/32/474/2/index.htm)

if you are doing any more road than this short link ups - get both - i know its pricy but it will make both the on and off road experience more pleaasurble.

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on November 03, 2008, 11:21:43 am
I never really liked the Montrail Hhighlanders, although they are very comfy straight from the box, and shouldn't really need a lot of breaking in.
A lot of people like the Mizuno trail shoe, forgotten what it's called, I quite like the Roclite 315 for traily type stuff, although I'm thinking of going for the 295, because that 10grams will make so much difference to my lard ass.

Are you on Burley Bridge on Sat JFW, I might see you there then. I'm planning on just hobbling round I've not been doing much lately.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 03, 2008, 12:24:29 pm
hi graeme - yes burley bridge, i'm just plodding too.  ;D

re highlanders - however much you run round the shop you often don't know until you do some running - which is an expensive process of trial and error -i can wear walshes out of the box, when i tried the highlanders i thought they might rub under my ankle bone, then when i wore them out running - it was actually the height of them up my achilles that seemed most annoying (and slightly rubbed 1st 2 times) - wore them on a tanky's recce on sunday on kinder and they didn't rub at all (hoorah!). other shoes in the shop were innovates - but they just don't fit my foot.

i bought them last weekend in a rush as i really wanted to get a bit of extra cushioning for burley bridge (was in font this week just gone so had sat morning last week to grab some shoes to take with me to get worn in).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on November 03, 2008, 12:50:39 pm
I agree it is an expensive process of trial and error at the moment my feet seem to suit Mudclaws and roclites, however I got a pair of mudrocs because I felt the mudclaws were too specialised, guess what they don't seem to fit my feet as well as the mudclaw. So I'm going for the cheapo option and getting my mudclaws resoled by lancashire shoe repairs.

If I don't see you on Saturday good luck with Tankies. I'm just going for my roclites on Saturday although I've spoken to one chap who was thinking of going round in road shoes. I've not reccied so I've no idea what the terrain's like.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 03, 2008, 01:21:41 pm
recce'd from crossflatts to finish (both by stations). There's a road section up to micklethwaite (following long towpath section which didn't recce!!) but once onto ilkley moor (between check points 6 and 7) there's a very boggy bit (broken up by a few slabs) - so i'm going with the highlanders.

haven't checked out the first half though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on November 03, 2008, 01:35:12 pm
Do the mudclaws break in quickly? Bought my first pair recently and they've been pinching me on the left foot where the shoe flexs. Not keen on this running with pinchy shoes business.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on November 03, 2008, 01:53:39 pm
The only problem I've ever had with any inov8 is the heel, and they seem to break in quite quickly. Which ones have you got out of interest? I'm currenlty using 330's and they seem like the dogs' to me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on November 03, 2008, 03:14:03 pm
Yeah got the 330s with the new bright yellow upper. Really noticed the difference in traction when it gets soft under foot. Can't wait to break them in but I won't be risking them in the race on Sunday. I only managed about 4 miles in them last time before the pain started affecting my calm.

Anyone running the Leg it round Lathkil on Sunday?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on November 04, 2008, 08:23:37 am
That's a shame I liked the orange 330's, it'll take ages to get rid of that yellow colour
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on November 04, 2008, 08:34:52 am
Yeah they do stick out a bit. A run over the peat bogs above Langsett ought to sort it out.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on November 14, 2008, 10:04:02 am
Right now, I'm the fucking king of the Edgebaston Reservoir racetrack.

 8)

you back in brum fraulein?

Nein.  Reichside.

Does no-one roadrun here.  I don't like mud!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 14, 2008, 10:34:27 am
darks nights are necessitating road sessions (though my knees aren't loving me for it)

tempo run tuesday

intervals/speed work thursday

have you ever tried interval training houds? - i think it would appeal to your masochisitic side.

variations on a theme of - run so hard you're nearly sick - jog/walk to recover - repeat
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Falling Down on November 15, 2008, 12:04:21 pm
I downloaded one the Nike/itunes combo's for interval training and it worked a treat. 45 minutes of poppy punk tunes with varying tempo's and an instructor talking over the top 'Go on 1 more minute' type of stuff until you want to be sick.   :great:

Doing half of the Edale Skyline tomorrow morning  :)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on November 16, 2008, 10:16:33 pm
...have you ever tried interval training houds?

Yes, found it effective but shit-boring.

I rarely run for less than an hour.  I run for fun, not to get better at running.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 17, 2008, 10:54:37 am
shirley the feeling sick/endorphins is the fun

isn't it similar feelings of challenging yourself that make running more than an hour fun?

this weekend I have been mainly running up and down (x 6) pendle hill

up
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lF2n-l8ss8E/SSAhxfKmDuI/AAAAAAAADqs/0sV-Cm7csRk/s720/DSC_2002.JPG)

down
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Fpuxdd1TgtI/SR8K-vNnvJI/AAAAAAAAAjg/op6W_M2DKJ8/s720/IMG_1263.jpg)

up
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lF2n-l8ss8E/SSAh5oz5a6I/AAAAAAAADrI/Gx8ixkjgtWw/s720/DSC_2006.JPG)

etc



Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on November 18, 2008, 02:41:53 pm
"Isn't it similar feelings of challenging yourself that make running more than an hour fun?"

No, I don't think so.


Feeling sick has never been fun for me.  And running for the lengths of time I do is mostly about just getting some in, making the most of the time out/weather - not facing a challenge.  The fitness comes naturally from just going out, I can't be arsed digging for more.  Running for an hour is hardly challenging though, is it?  3?  Yeah, but in this minging month it can wait.   I don't think I'm interested in physical challenges anymore, or atleast not at the moment  :(  Roll on summer and early mornings.

(I was going to enter the Birmingham half a few weeks back, but couldn't, it seemed such a mindless futile thing to do.)

Each to their own.  Your pics look good.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 21, 2008, 11:52:34 am
I downloaded one the Nike/itunes combo's for interval training and it worked a treat.

can you post a link?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Falling Down on November 21, 2008, 12:01:30 pm
They're on the iTunes store if you search under Nike so I don't know how to link direct.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 24, 2008, 10:31:09 am
Hi all been running for a little while I do 10km/half marathon's (road) & have just got myself a GARMIN 405 GPS watch. It's fairly expensive, but an excellent training aid when out running & you can download your info on to your PC & web page & look at your data, good if your a bod...Living in Essex the elevation function is fairly useless ha ha.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on November 24, 2008, 03:52:25 pm
I have the Garmin 305 (cos it's price dropped loads when the 405 came out) which is amazing. Not hooked it up to the laptop yet. Probably should. I really like the way it tells me how far I've run since I've bought it and how many calories I've (something like 23,000) burnt so far.

Have a grumble though. It does take forever to find the satellites. So I have to set off without my distance or pace info until the watch finds the them, usually 400 to 800 yards down the road.

 :devangel:

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on November 24, 2008, 04:06:30 pm
are garmins compatible with macs?

i know a lot of mapping software isn't, our home computers are macs
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on November 24, 2008, 04:42:36 pm
Apparently so.

http://www8.garmin.com/products/trainingcenter/ (http://www8.garmin.com/products/trainingcenter/)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on November 24, 2008, 05:03:28 pm
the bods on amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/product/B0012XO4R4/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt/275-3107338-5697355?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) seem to reckon you're better off with the 305 and £70, so long as you aren't bothered by the look of the thing.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 24, 2008, 09:23:09 pm
Scrub my last post, fucking thing has died fourth run out!! Someone is getting shouted at tomorow. :furious:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on January 26, 2009, 10:37:39 am
Ran the Tigger Tor yesterday. What a great race and what a start. No steady ease yourself into it. Nope not here. Really enjoyed it though and managed not to walk until I reached the bottom of Higgar Tor which was a result for me. With some luck I might make the top half.

Tweaked my ankle though and I think I'll miss the Mickledon Straddle next Sunday.  :(

Anyone ran any races lately?

Possibly entering the Grindleford Gallop although the distance does scare me a little.

Whilst I'm here, on the ankle thing. I guess ankle sprains/strains are a common injury for fell runners. Any tips/hints on prevention/strengthening?

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on January 26, 2009, 10:47:00 am
hi plattsy

got long races lined up in near future - high peak marathon beginning march  :o

skyline end of march

yorkshire three peaks in april

been struggling to build myself up after flu over xmas - did HPM recce on saturday, 16m 3400feet - got slightly over eager recceing - and tonsils/glands telling me about it yesterday and today

i wonder if i have actually destroyed my immune system?

re ankles - wobble boards/air cushion thingies if you can be arsed - i got one when did my ankle really badly, used it religiously - but of course fallen  out of use since its been alright.

running in itself builds strength/propricipiation (sp? the nerval feedback that tells your brain what position your ankle/foot is in) - after bad strains/sprains the propri thingy wotsit is out of cock and wobble boards, balancing on one foot with your eyes closed etc help build it back up. if you don't have that feed back - you can go too far over on your ankle before you act to correct it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on January 26, 2009, 11:16:17 am
Hey jfw, thanks for the advice. I'll definitely give the standing on one foot with my eyes closed thing a try. The ankle in question has caused me problems in the past (massive rupture to the deltoid ligament through an eversion injury) so I'm always concerned when I tweak it.

Hope you feel better soon and yup it sounds like you've trashed your immune system. (Mine will be trashed soon after a weeks snowboarding in Feb). Might be best to completely rest, recupe, eat well, lots of water for a week or until you feel back to good health. HPM is still a few weeks away. Guess it's a balancing act between health and fitness.

Got a friend who is trying to convince me to run the Edale Skyline. Sounds like a great race. One I think I'd be just happy to finish, we'll see.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 26, 2009, 02:48:11 pm
Not done a race since June last year, got Winter Hill a week on Sunday. I'm trying to do the club championship for the first time in three years, so am missing the Edale Skyline. Hope you get some reasonable weather for it!
You should go for it Plattsy, I've run most of it, and it's an ok run, you'll be fine if your ankle's ok by then.

jfw your ticklist looks scary for the first half of the year. Good luck with it, hope it all goes well.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on January 26, 2009, 03:05:51 pm

jfw your ticklist looks scary for the first half of the year. Good luck with it, hope it all goes well.

cheers graeme i am somewhat concerned myself!

just aiming to finish HPM (so fairly plodding - though gruelling in time)

similarly hoping to just finish skyline (and not get timed out!) - hoping to be a bit more on form for 3 peaks

your injury all cleared up?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 26, 2009, 04:12:21 pm
The injury seems to be doing ok. I think I have overtight muscle compartments in my left calf. Needs a real good stretching before running.
Hoping to do a lot more racing this year and get some real fitness going. You should be ok on the skyline, you've got two and a half hours to get to Mam nick, but don't forget the checkpoint is one the other side of the road. Seems a bit dirty to me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on January 30, 2009, 02:04:39 pm
Just wanted to say how inspired I was reading through this thread last night.

After years of telling myself that I would start running, and endless badgering from  a mate (Noel craine) who is a fanatical fell runner, I've finally crossed the line about 7 weeks ago. The catalyst was a bad finger injury in the autumn, a nagging worry that I am far too heavy to ever pull on small holds, and the insistence of a mate who was probably bored of listening to my empty threats about starting to run, plus my decision to get back into winter climbing after a 4-5 year hiatus. Since then I've been going out twice a week, just steady laps of Llyn Padarn at first, but my eyes have always been on getting up in the hills.

I walked up Snowdon on the Watkin path with my missus over the New Year and as we hit the main ridge under Lliwedd this sprightly fell runner came skipping along the horseshoe. I was stood there sweating in full winter kit, breaking in a new pair of winter boots, and feeling more than a little overdressed. I looked at this bloke and realised that he was the King of the Mountain, and that I wanted to know everything about how he became able to do what he was doing.

At first i had some problems with Plantar Fasciitus, but solved this by getting some proper shoes (Inov8 Roclite 305s) and doing the golfball treatment thing. After I'd got the hang of the Llyn Padarn circuit and could run all the up hill sections without breaking my stride, I then moved onto running up to Twll Mawr and through the quarries; the uphill switch backs from the Nant Peris end of Llyn Peris were hard to run the first time, but I managed them by zig zagging. The quarries are so good to run through, the slate trails are nice and firm, but not punishing on the joints like roadwork, and there is always something interesting to look at.

My next target was the Moel Elio horseshoe. Stupidly I went for this on a really windy day and the up hill summit push, with wind blasting in my face, broke me and I had to speed walk instead. The rest of the ridge was fantastic, even though I had to speed walk a few more sections. As I hit the Telegraph Valley (all slightly down hill) I was thundering along feeling completely euphoric when I bumped into Noel who was running the other way - I hadn't told him what I'd been up to so he was bursting with enthusiasm for a new arrival in the 'game'.

Anyway, I reckon I pushed it too hard, as I then came down with a bad chest infection. I got some antibiotics and was out of action for about 10 days in total. Yesterday I went for a 'steady' Llyn Padarn circuit after I'd dropped the kids at school and despite my nervousness about triggering the infection again, couldn't resist cranking things up a bit. My lungs felt really clear, and I managed to run the really steep section leading up to the Fachwen road (apologies to none N Wales folk if all these geographical references don't mean anything) I realised that I had probably been running with clogged up lungs even before I got ill.

So last night I felt pretty psyched about the potential to break into to some properly challenging fell runs, but today I feel rough, as if I'm about to be ill again. Fingers crossed, I'll be alright. But if not I guess it is lesson learnt the hard way.

Apart from the obvious attracion of the physical challenge and endorphine glow, the unexpected pleasure for me is the way that I'm discovering aspects of the landscape around me that I didn't know existed. I guess i'm pretty lucky living in such an amazing place; I reckon I've only scratched the surface in terms of classic local runs.

Noel is keen for me to go out and try some of the big fell runs, but I don't reckon I'm ready yet. Some of the stuff he does looks like a world away from where I am. Not sure about doing any races either - I think I like the isolation of running on my own, it gives me time to think stuff through, or just let my mind wander. I've also no idea what level I'm at compared to proper runners - I'm sure I'd get my arse kicked badly.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on January 30, 2009, 02:26:10 pm
I haven't tried running with music yet, but I'm keen to experiment with this. Bought my daughter a nanopod for Christmas - reckon I'll 'borrow' it and fill it up with some furious American Hardcore (for the up hill thrashes) and stuff like that latest Animal Collective album (http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/148230-animal-collective-merriweather-post-pavilion (http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/148230-animal-collective-merriweather-post-pavilion)) for the mellower flat and down hill sections.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 30, 2009, 03:22:50 pm
Don't bother with music while your running, it distracts you from the point of being in the hills. Listen to what's going on, you'll appreciate it more. Don't worry about walking the uphill sections, it's sometimes quicker than running anyway. And I'd also suggest joining a club, I'd say eryri is nearest you, you'll benefit more from your running then.
Don't be too put off by big fell races, just do them and take your time.
Good luck and enjoy the hills.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on January 30, 2009, 03:28:55 pm
Welcome to the gang Pantontino.  :wave:

A rule of thumb for cold/flu and running is something like. If it's above the neck then you can still go running but probably not at your usual level. If the illness is below the neck then you shouldn't run until you're back to full fitness. From my experience don't push it too early. There are articles on the web.

I didn't think I'd be interested in races when I started out running. Thought I'd get my ass kicked too and for the most part I do if you look at my results(last race result I came 215th out of 345). However I very rarely, if ever, have the same motivation/commitment in training as I do in races. There is just something about them that pushes you further. So as long as I get a personal best I'm happy or if I'm running a race for the first time I might set myself a target time to beat.

I'm sure your running friend can advise on a good local first race to try if you fancy it. If you do (and I was in your position) what I would do is find out the route and recce it first. Then use this time as my target to beat.

As for long distance that'll come with time. But don't be afraid to once in a while turn it up a notch (keep your body guessing). Drop your pace a little and try to crank out some extra mileage. If you're running with your friend he'll not mind running ahead (on the tough sections) and coming back for you.

You certainly are blessed with great places to go and lose yourself running/walking for a while. However if you decide you really want to improve joining a club might be a good idea. Running on your own is great but running with a club regularly can help with improvement as well as training ideas/motivation/new routes. I'm fairly certain there's a club who meet around Llanberis.

Music whilst running is purely a personal thing. I can take it or leave it whilst running on the road. However in the hills I agree with Graeme.

Enjoy but be careful the bug doesn't take over. Afterall it's all about climbing, right?  ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 30, 2009, 03:44:08 pm
Enjoy but be careful the bug doesn't take over. Afterall it's all about climbing, right?  ;)

I haven't climbed for years now, I just come on here because it's more amusing than the FRA and ukc forums  :thumbsup:

P.s. I'm just as crap at running as I was at climbing, and that's very bad  :o

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on January 30, 2009, 03:51:56 pm
Enjoy but be careful the bug doesn't take over. Afterall it's all about climbing, right?  ;)
I haven't climbed for years now, I just come on here because it's more amusing than the FRA and ukc forums  :thumbsup:

P.s. I'm just as crap at running as I was at climbing, and that's very bad  :o
Bug got you huh.

Thats two "crap at climbing and running" club members then.  8)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2009, 03:52:10 pm
I've managed to get back to running regularly over the last month. Due to my very wrong eating habits I have put on a couple of stone in the last 18 months. To my surprize my legs seem to have become proportionally stronger and I am able to run at a reasonable pace - probably due to the fact that I walk 5+ miles a day and did a lot of short fast bike rides over the summer.
I'd like to shed the extra weight (dieting and running has knocked off 10 lb in last 6 weeks), but am liking the stronger legs (I'm thinking - legs of a 15 1/2 stone man powering 12 1/2 stone mass). Has anyone else been through a similar process?
I generally run 40 - 60 minutes and have been putting my effort into getting faster on familiar routes.
Anything else I should do?
I'm aiming at doing the Sheff half mazza in April. In '07 I did 1.45. I'd like to knock 10 mins off that.
I know how much difference weight makes to my climbing, but what do you folks think about how it affects running?
insufficient data, in a hurry. ta for ideas
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on January 30, 2009, 04:08:26 pm
Of the top of my head. Please check the net for details.

If you want to burn fat run at a jogging pace for 60+ mins at a time. Aiming for a heart rate of about 60-70% of maximum heart rate (MHR). You should be able to hold a conversation(ish) at this pace.

Mix this is in with some aerobic heart rate (70-80% of MHR) exercise to build up the C.V. and burn some fat. Short sentences at this pace.

MHR = 220 - Your age.

Jogging at 60-70% isn't good for the knees and is boooooooring.


To answer your question about weight. My weight was about 14 1/2 stone with a background of football. So thick thighs good for short sprinting. I'm down to about 13 3/4 stone and the legs are thinning as I lose weight but appear more defined and muscular than before. I suspect your legs will change shape and have a smaller mass yet they'll be stronger and you'll be faster than before.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 30, 2009, 04:17:11 pm
Loosing the fat is the easy part (did I really say that?). I was asking about keeping the strength in my legs so I could get faster as I loose weight. appologies for the scrappy post.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 30, 2009, 04:17:40 pm
Sounds about right. I found I tended to lose more weight when doing a lot of fell stuff, can't say I ever noticed the same for roads, but I suspect that was because I lack the motivation for running on the road and have bnever run more than 7 miles on the road.

I personally find it easier to get out for two hours plus in the fells becasue of the variety of terrain, the peace and for some strange reason I enjoy that feeling i have put my body through hell for the last couple of hours.

Can't wait for tomorrow and Sunday.

Loosing the fat is the easy part (did I really say that?). I was asking about keeping the strength in my legs so I could get faster as I loose weight. appologies for the scrappy post.

If you want to keep the power you might want to incorporate hill and interval training. That's my guess anyway.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on January 30, 2009, 04:24:59 pm
have been putting my effort into getting faster on familiar routes.
Anything else I should do?

eh up lagers how many times a week you running?

when you have got a base where you are running regularly....

maybe one session do some speed work - this can range from very "serious" time or distance intervals (eg x metres  hard, with y m recovery (or x min hard, y minutes recovery) ) to less serious bursts of effort.

the principle being that to get your desired race pace - you run at that pace ( or a little faster) for an "interval" you then have a recovery period, then another interval - by making the recoveries shorter/faster or the intervals longer you progress towards being able to do your full race distance at your required pace.

less formally, once a week pick a section of one of your routes where you are going to up the effort and run hard (not all out sprinting but working hard) then recover for a bit -then pick another section - i used to run sections in ecclesall woods like this - so from this road to this road fast, linking road section recovery, to this fork in the path fast, to footbridge recovery.

then you are more consciously working at running faster
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on January 30, 2009, 04:36:51 pm
I was wondering about the fat burning aspect of running. I had heard that the 'steady as she goes' approach was the way to do it, but I find flat road running boring and a bit painful. I much prefer steeper/undulating terrain where you have to actually think about how you place your feet - I get more psyched and definitely push myself harder. Surely that means I'm going to be burning more fat?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on January 30, 2009, 04:43:50 pm
Don't bother with music while your running, it distracts you from the point of being in the hills. Listen to what's going on, you'll appreciate it more. Don't worry about walking the uphill sections, it's sometimes quicker than running anyway. And I'd also suggest joining a club, I'd say eryri is nearest you, you'll benefit more from your running then.
Don't be too put off by big fell races, just do them and take your time.
Good luck and enjoy the hills.

The only time I've really felt like I might have benefitted from music is on long road plods. I was curious if it would help for hard up hill sections - but knowing me I'd probably give myself a heart attack if I was being fired by some really aggressive music.

Noel suggested that I join the Eryri Harriers; they do seem like a really good club. They do all sorts of things, such as hill sprinting sessions around Llanberis village on mid week evenings.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 30, 2009, 04:44:14 pm
You can still use the steady as she goes approach on the fells, the main thing is to keep the heart rate elevated, this allows the 'fire' as it were to keep burning and you'll burn more fat away. You may need to use some walking on uphill sections of fell runs to allow you to keep a steady pace.
Walking on uphill sections is perfectly acceptable as you will find it's quicker and more efficient to walk than it is to run.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on January 30, 2009, 04:55:43 pm
You can still use the steady as she goes approach on the fells, the main thing is to keep the heart rate elevated, this allows the 'fire' as it were to keep burning and you'll burn more fat away. You may need to use some walking on uphill sections of fell runs to allow you to keep a steady pace.
Walking on uphill sections is perfectly acceptable as you will find it's quicker and more efficient to walk than it is to run.

I was wondering about the walking thing - on really steep ground it is possible to speed walk really fast, and coversely I've noticed - much to my amusement - how slow it is possible to run! I guess I had just made the assumption that walking was 'bad form', a bit like using your knees in climbing used to be (not that it ever stopped me!).

My other question was about techniques for running down hill quickly. I've done a lot of hill walking and winter climbing in my time and I've always adopted a kind of quick skipping/shuffling method on steep descents. The idea being that the first foot lands and then the second foot lands a split second later behind it. Thus if either ankle goes it is supported by the other leg. This is clearly not as fast as just trucking straight down in gaping strides, but I feel really paranoid at the moment about the strength of my ankles. Maybe when I've been doing it a bit longer and my legs have strengthened up a bit I'll be more comfortable taking the more reckless approach.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on January 30, 2009, 05:49:32 pm
Interval training and hill training. How did I not think about those? Certainly great for running faster and for breaking up training habits.

Some running downhill stuff here. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/articles/article006.htm (http://www.brianmac.co.uk/articles/article006.htm)

I think I use a combination of everything. Hop, skip, jump, long strides, short strides. Depending on the terrain. Not really thought about it. I just use whatever comes to mind. This may be the root cause to my recent ankle injury. A page or two back jfw mentioned some exercises for strengthening ankles.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on January 30, 2009, 06:44:54 pm
Never really thought much about techniques for running downhill, there are some very good examples around on the net. There were some shown on the FRA forum a couple of years ago showing good descending technique.
You'll get better as you get more experienced, and try to look where your going, you can learn to read descents. Don't lean back too much as it  puts too much strain on your quads, I started doing this about 18 months ago and became much better. Be careful if your too cautious you'll end up getting injured, too fast the same will happen because you fall over. I've only been running a few years now and am still learning.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Falling Down on January 30, 2009, 09:07:07 pm
Good effort Simon.. a great story well told.

I'd kibosh the notion of running the fells and hills with an iPod on... it's far more pleasurable being immersed your surroundings. Running with one when on the road or in the gym (don't knock it.. I have to travel with work and sometimes it's the only option) is good though, especially for interval training.

As for running races, I think you'd enjoy it more than you think. I certainly get way fitter when I'm entering races rather than just plodding around the Peak.  Joining a club is great (I used to run for Dark Peak when I lived in Sheffield), there's a real sense of community in Fell Running clubs; it gets you out when the weather is bad and you go to places you might not have been before.

Anyone else doing the Edale Skyline in March?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on February 06, 2009, 04:45:07 pm
"One for the runners".

http://www.snowquite.com/ (http://www.snowquite.com/)

 ???
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on February 08, 2009, 08:07:56 pm
First race og the year today trotted round Winter Hill in a fairly poor 2hrs 39, tricky conditions spent most of my time going over on my ankle, and not too bad considering my wife had ababy before Christmas. Still good to get that first race done and take it from there. Next race is a about a month away  :(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: philo on February 11, 2009, 07:49:05 pm
hello, i would like to show my face as a punter who attempts to run, whilst im nursing a finger injury and wanting general better fitness ive decided to run more, my usual route is a 2 mile stretch along a flat road to a uphill road to a flat road to a downhill road, and when i become fitter there is a park on the uphill road that can extend my journey and the sighs at least away from cars and tarmac for a mile or so.  running without music to me would be hard tho as i dont have the luxury of listening to a river or the country!

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on February 16, 2009, 09:57:03 pm
have been putting my effort into getting faster on familiar routes.
Anything else I should do?

eh up lagers how many times a week you running?

when you have got a base where you are running regularly....

maybe one session do some speed work - this can range from very "serious" time or distance intervals (eg x metres  hard, with y m recovery (or x min hard, y minutes recovery) ) to less serious bursts of effort.

the principle being that to get your desired race pace - you run at that pace ( or a little faster) for an "interval" you then have a recovery period, then another interval - by making the recoveries shorter/faster or the intervals longer you progress towards being able to do your full race distance at your required pace.

less formally, once a week pick a section of one of your routes where you are going to up the effort and run hard (not all out sprinting but working hard) then recover for a bit -then pick another section - i used to run sections in ecclesall woods like this - so from this road to this road fast, linking road section recovery, to this fork in the path fast, to footbridge recovery.

then you are more consciously working at running faster
Makes sense to me.
Flu has wiped me out for the last couple of weeks, but I'm looking forward to pushing myself when breathing returns to normalish.
Normally just running 3 times a week between 40 and 60 mins on the streets of Heeley/Gleadless/Meersbrook.
The good news is that I'm now a stone lighter than 2 months ago and my legs feel quite "bouncy" as a result. Looking forward to loosing the next stone.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on February 17, 2009, 06:33:08 pm
lagers i just had a chest infection - finished the antibiotics (which cleared it up straight away) only to get a cold - gonna miss my first big race i had lined up - also worried about the next one - so i feel your illness pain - this has been a right winter of it for me since november (where i think i might have started the process by overdoing it training - and since then my immune system hasn't had chance to recover)

anyway try this 5 milish run if you fancy getting muddy feet:

from heeley/meersbrook chesterfield road run down the snicket onto athol road/smithywood (as if walking to the works if you know this way) either run along smithy wood road and straight across on ulverston to sainsbury, or down norton hammer lane snicket to works and from the works go under the bridge where the mini car park is and run along the path by the river, up the metal steps, you can get to sainsbury by running past fitness first.

from archer road sainsbury garage, run into the woods alongside hutcliffe wood road, and run parallel to the river, you come out at abbey lane, then you can run into the golf course (up the drive and follow path - dashed line on linked map) and into the woods towards and along the river to twentywells lane, don't exit the wood go left up the killer steps and return along the top level path to the golf course, back the way  you came or make a loop

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=s89ee&countryCode=GB#map=53.33233,-1.50822|16|4&dp=os&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:53.3529:-1.48113:16|s89ee|S8%209EE (http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=s89ee&countryCode=GB#map=53.33233,-1.50822|16|4&dp=os&bd=useful_information&loc=GB:53.3529:-1.48113:16|s89ee|S8%209EE)

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: erm, sam on February 17, 2009, 10:50:46 pm
Hey you should use Gmaps Pedometer to show the exact route, so lazy people such as my self don't acutally have to work it out.
Below is the last crappy 5.8km run I did..

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=2499273  (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=2499273)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on February 18, 2009, 09:25:13 am
http://explore.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/os_routes/show/7385 (http://explore.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/os_routes/show/7385)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: matthew on February 18, 2009, 01:33:07 pm
I'm a fan of this mapping site
www.mapmyrun.com/ (http://www.mapmyrun.com/)

Loads of options including searching for runs in your area....
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on February 18, 2009, 03:21:29 pm
i think gmaps and map my run both use google maps - perfect for road runs.

for off road - you can sometimes see the path you were on on the satellite view but not always - now multimap have scrollable OS maps - would be cool if could get "map my run" functionality onto OS map.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slackline on February 18, 2009, 03:33:50 pm
You boys need to get yourselves a Nokia N95 (which has built in GPS) and the Sports Tracker (http://research.nokia.com/research/projects/SportsTracker/) application to record down to the metre where you've been.

Used mine whilst out for a walk last year, and then exported the data to Google Maps format and using the API overlaid it on Google Maps embedded into my blog (http://kimura.no-ip.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=slack:walking_with_gps) (NB : My blog is slooooow to load as its running of an embbeded system with a 266Mhz processor and 32Mb RAM, although it should load fine I've found that sometimes the walk doesn't get overlaid on the map properly, just refresh if you're really bored and can be bothered looking).

Bonus points to anyone who can work out where we stopped to pick some 'shrooms  :)

That said, you can no doubt get dedicated GPS tools to do this, the N95 is probably a bit big to go running with.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on February 18, 2009, 03:55:50 pm
Padley Gorge?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slackline on February 18, 2009, 03:59:42 pm
Padley Gorge?

Have you looked at the map?  Even if the walk isn't overlaid, it should be clear that its not Padley Gorge.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on February 18, 2009, 04:01:28 pm
 ;D Nope. I'm guessing I'm miles out. Just remembered you went there and took photos of 'shrooms.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slackline on February 18, 2009, 04:06:29 pm
;D Nope. I'm guessing I'm miles out. Just remembered you went there and took photos of 'shrooms.

Good memory, I did indeed go foraging round Padley & Longshaw with my camera  :)

This particular time I was picking one specific species (with a pointy cap)  ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: matthew on February 26, 2009, 11:24:54 am
Are any of you runners taking part in the IROC? I'm on the marshalling list, but will hopefully by running to 8mile fell run. It'll be my first fellrace. In fact just my first race. The distance doesn't worry me. It's the 900m of climb which does! It's 6weeks away, any suggestions how to boost my hill ability in that time? I was thinking 2sessions of hill sprints a week and then one long run (maybe +50% of the race distance).
Any other suggestions for strong legs in 6weeks?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on February 27, 2009, 03:19:06 pm
Get a Garmin watch. It dose all you need then you can download the info to your own page on their site. You get a break down of all the things you need & a pretty google map of your run- perfect.
Before this I was a mapmyrun fan, but I only do road running, don't know if this makes a difference at all.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on March 04, 2009, 04:07:52 pm

got long races lined up in near future - high peak marathon beginning march  :o


Good luck for the weekend. Hopefully you won't get the crappy weather that's due Friday night.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on March 09, 2009, 07:04:15 pm
hey thanks graeme - but i had to abscond with chest infection  :'(

my team (with stand in) totley in tiaras got round in just under 13 hours - and reported being very lucky with the weather.


 - think i'm going to skip skyline too (though could probably do it) just so i don't get over eager - doing ultra conservative (read frustrating) build up this time.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on March 09, 2009, 07:57:14 pm
Bummer, hope it clears up sooner rather than later. It's best not to rush back from these things. It's unfortunate when you miss events because of injury or illness and even more frustrating when you have to get your entries in for all these events quick smart, I think I lost somewhere in the region of 50-100 quid on pre-entry last year after I got injured  :o

My calf went after a short run up Wansfell this weekend so it's back to giving all my money to the physio and back on a diet til it clears up.
Hopefully I'll be able to make Coniston this year.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on March 17, 2009, 09:03:07 am
Time for a spring clean?

Up and Running are apparently recycling worn out running shoes.
If you take them into their shop they are collected and sorted by the European Recycling Company and then shipped out to the developing world where local people refurbish them, and sell them on at affordable prices to those who would otherwise go without.  Also charities such as the Variety Club and Afghanistan Schools benefit from any profits.


Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 06, 2009, 02:04:59 pm
first post lergy race at the weekend - baildon boundary way off road half - managed to squeak in under 2 hours at 1:56:47 -  ;D
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 07, 2009, 08:35:26 am
Nice one jfw. Hope you continue to tick your races off now and no more lurge.

Been struggling for motivation lately. Ran the Grindleford Gallop and since I've been completely unmotivated to run at all. I've got races lined up which I'm motivated to do. Just can't be bothered to even jog a few miles round the block.

Almost feels like the Gallop sapped all the motivation out of me. I'd never ran over 15 miles before in a race and so it was a new experience (I was happy with time of 3:38:47 even if I was technically disqualified for missing a check point).

Forced myself to jog 5 miles last night and hated every minute of it. Felt like such hard work. Going to see if I can push through it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 07, 2009, 10:19:05 am
Yeah, motivation's at all time low here too (mostly as I've torn muscles in the neck and running is painful...) but on the positive side, at least it's getting summery again; nothing like the reappearance of the sun to re-jig ones' interest.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 07, 2009, 02:59:59 pm

Forced myself to jog 5 miles last night and hated every minute of it. Felt like such hard work. Going to see if I can push through it.

especially if you can tick over on a few short runs - you'll probably benefit from a break

injury where you can't actually run is the other sure fire motivator
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on April 07, 2009, 05:35:57 pm
I haven't run for about 3 weeks.

I was going really well, ran up to Cloggy, did the Moel Cynghorion circuit, my fastest time around Llyn Padarn and then did a big run up Snowdon (which was amazing and probably the hardest run I've done so far) and then predictably caught a bad cold from my daughter a few days later, which then mutated into a chest infection, and I'm still coughing/feeling rough! ::)

I'm loving the running, but nearly every time I push the boat out with a big fell run I end up getting ill afterwards. My mate swears by an echinacea supplement. I reckon I'm going to get some. Any other sugggestions for boosting imune systems appreciated (yes, I know I should be going to bed earlier!).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Vitamin K on April 07, 2009, 08:05:06 pm
Sounds a familiar story to when I used to run a lot - bouts of feeling good then bang, some chest infection, viral illness, cold or whatever. I think in the initial stages of starting to run you have to keep a lid on it and not get too carried away when you start getting fitter.

Currently I'm suffering from a bit of plantar fasciitis with a nice bit of knee pain thrown in - great. This is after just getting going again after seemingly been suffering from some kind of viral/chest thing since Christmas. Still, I'm aiming to get out at least 3 times a week easy and/or getting back on the turbo trainer. My advice is just to pull back from really going for it - build slowly and it will pay dividends in the long term; it's natural to be impatient though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 08, 2009, 10:12:54 am
It's not a familiar story to me at all.  Not even when running 25 miles a week.  Sore soles, ankles, knees and hips?  Sure.  

Some people are kinda sickly though, always sniffling (or some other complaint).  I suspect this is diet-based (poor immune system) issues.  But saying that, the weather in N. Germany is generally excellent and not to be compared w/ N. Wales et al.

EDIT - Sorry skip reading too much.  Boosting immmune system:  fresh ginger, and lots of it;  in the cooking and in teas (mainly drink mint w/ fresh lemon and ginger through out the day).  And obviously as much fresh fruit and vegetables as you can squeeze in.  Currently manage to get 3 fruit portions in a oner - in an AM smoothie, so it's not too difficult to get 5 or 6 portions in a day.  Steaming stuff too, no boiling if at all possible.

Garlic too, I eat it in most meals.  http://vitanetonline.com/forums/1/Thread/1376 (http://vitanetonline.com/forums/1/Thread/1376)

http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/life-and-style/articles/boost-your-bodys-immune-system.aspx (http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/life-and-style/articles/boost-your-bodys-immune-system.aspx)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on April 08, 2009, 12:04:28 pm
I think my diet is okay, I eat well: lots of fresh fruit, vegetables, ginger, garlic, fish, brown rice, brown pasta, wholemeal bread, oatcakes, cheese, olives, skimmed milk etc. I could probably cut down on red wine intake, but I don't drink much beer at all these days (unless I find myself in a pub with king guzzler Andy Scott!).

I have been living in a caravan for the last 18 months though and I suspect the dampness/cold has had some bearing on my recent tendency to come down with chest infections. I'm going to get a de-humidifier this week as I can't see our new house getting finished before the next winter arrives.

I reckon if I can take it steady on the running front and - as frustrating as it is - build up more slowly I'll be alright. But the temptation to go for a big challenging run every now and then is hard to resist, especially when the skies are blue and the sun is shining and those mountains look so damn fine...

(Vit K: you probably know this already, but I found rolling my foot on a hard ball, and going at it quite hard so that it hurts sorted a bout of PF for me pretty quickly.)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Vitamin K on April 08, 2009, 12:39:13 pm
Yeah I know about the golf ball thing - seems to be settling down, but it's not half painful sometimes. Trying some off-the-shelf insoles as well, as I'm not convinced my shoes are providing enough support.

When I mention that I was running a lot...I mean a lot and practically all of it was fell based (often nipping up to the lakes after work to get a 'quick' one in - usually round Kentmere, but often up Helvellyn and the like). I never had the injuries, but I did have lots of illness, which was probably down to severe bout of glandular fever buggering up my immune system when I was younger and generally being an idiot with my training, which was usually pretty full on. I never really got the concept of easy days/weeks, but I certainly have now.

I guess age is catching up with me and that accounts for the niggles.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on April 08, 2009, 01:19:19 pm
Currently I'm suffering from a bit of plantar fasciitis with a nice bit of knee pain thrown in

How's the wrist, Andy?

Sounds like you're getting old before your time :lol:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Vitamin K on April 08, 2009, 01:35:25 pm
Tell me about it - nearly 50 and I'm falling apart at the seams.

I haven't even mentioned the dodgy shoulders...but the wrist is fine ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on April 08, 2009, 01:45:58 pm
Cool, see you at Brownstones over the next couple of weeks then....
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on April 08, 2009, 08:30:44 pm
Yeah, Si...  I was making an unpointed comment re:  sickly types and poor diets.  I know you have a good lifestyle. 


Not true of many people tho, richness (in food) is rife. 


Over-keenness is a terror.  Sometimes after a week on my ass I go and run for 2+ hours and come back ruined...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 27, 2009, 09:44:49 am
manged to do the yorkshire three peaks race without getting timed out  :great: at either of the two cutoff points

squeaked in just under 4:50, with 4:49:40 - managed to pull an extra burst of effort for the last little bit when i worked out i had a nice round number i might beat (obviously that 20 seconds difference dead important  :whistle:)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Johnny Brown on April 27, 2009, 12:11:15 pm
Effort. Isn't that basically a amarathon but with 6000ft of ascent thrown in?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 27, 2009, 12:20:52 pm
fortunately its only 4500feet of ascent (so thats alright then)  :P

like this up whernside...

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5oBF33zkSjc/SfS8ezBTwXI/AAAAAAAACOw/6CWUtSrLxIY/s640/00128.jpg)

for facebookers me gurning a bit at the finish to get under 4:50

(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs037.snc1/3309_168010970057_859195057_6499045_5615999_n.jpg)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Pantontino on April 30, 2009, 10:48:25 am
manged to do the yorkshire three peaks race without getting timed out  :great: at either of the two cutoff points

squeaked in just under 4:50, with 4:49:40 - managed to pull an extra burst of effort for the last little bit when i worked out i had a nice round number i might beat (obviously that 20 seconds difference dead important  :whistle:)

Good effort, sounds like a real epic grind!

Just out of interest, what sort of food and drinks did you consume before and during the race?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on April 30, 2009, 11:24:22 am
hi si - epic is right (i was summitting whernside as aidy's brother was winning!)

for runs over a few hours i like nutrigrain bars and jelly  babies (in that order)

i try to eat a bit every half hour - but in races just end up eating whilst walking up-hill

because there are  no streams on route we got to send a drinks bottle to both road check points (ribblehead and hill inn) - so i sent a lucozade sport size bottle with a nutrigrain bar taped to it containg weakish orange squash (with sugar not sweetners) and a pinch of salt to each one.

i also set off with a bottle in my bum bag (much to the disdain of aidy's fell running family!)

if i was doing a long race without drop offs i would consider taking a bottle in bumbag (maybe with wine neck for refilling), or my OMM sac with platypus, or at least have a drinks strategy ie knowing where streams are (conning friends and family into bringing you drinks works best).

i don't like sports drinks with sweeteners (even with sugar too like lucozade) - been meaning to try gatorade but couldn't get hold of any (also was sticking to what i know).

apparently you can condition yourself to drink loads less, and in the lakes/mountains drink from streams - but having enough (for me) to drink for me makes it all more bearable (and i didn't get cramp - which is apparently unusual for this race).

i did prob drink too much up ingleborough (cos it was hot) - and got a bit of a stitch on the way down (though might have got this anyway).

eating wise i don't like any thing to crumby/dry when i'm out of breath as i inhale it - try different stuff out on the move on big training runs, i did have a bit of a gel i had with me (SIS orange - but mainly cos i was thirsty and i'd given my last bottle to a marshal at top of pen y ghent), sometimes i have peanut butter sandwiches, and garibaldi (though its a bit dry) various cake/biscuits that don't get too destroyed

i find if i eat jelly babies (or too much "pure" sugar) too soon in a long event - i get a boost, then a crash - so once you start you can't stop and you feel a bit sick.

i have noticed the effect of eating jelly babies and "feeling them work" straight away - which that recent research about spitting out sports drink shows is in the brain.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on May 24, 2009, 08:39:21 pm
jfw and all the other fell types out there: I think I'm going to have a go at the Beacon Batch 5 (http://www.westonac.co.uk/beaconbatch/) next month - 5m, 1000ft of climbing. Think it should be a reasonable introduction, but have a question. It's run under FRA regs, will this mean I need full body cover, compass etc? Seems a bit over the top for a five miler on summer evening if so.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on May 26, 2009, 11:20:24 am
Maybe we should rename this thread One For The Uphill Crawlers and Downhill Fallers?  ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on May 26, 2009, 11:42:33 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOyQBSMeIhM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOyQBSMeIhM)

This sort of thing?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on May 26, 2009, 11:56:19 am
jfw and all the other fell types out there: I think I'm going to have a go at the Beacon Batch 5 (http://www.westonac.co.uk/beaconbatch/) next month - 5m, 1000ft of climbing. Think it should be a reasonable introduction, but have a question. It's run under FRA regs, will this mean I need full body cover, compass etc? Seems a bit over the top for a five miler on summer evening if so.

Duma that looks cool.

Its not usually mandatory for short races (under 6 miles so that's you) to carry anything - as it is for medium and long. There are more details in tehe rules here

http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/pdf/committee/safetyrequirements.pdf (http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/pdf/committee/safetyrequirements.pdf)

which basically say that the event organiser may ask you to carry it depending on weather conditions and forecast (in longer races the requirement for full windproof body cover will be upped to full waterproof cover if the weather is bad)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Steve R on May 27, 2009, 04:48:14 pm

squeaked in just under 4:50, with 4:49:40 - managed to pull an extra burst of effort for the last little bit when i worked out i had a nice round number i might beat (obviously that 20 seconds difference dead important  :whistle:)

great effort jo!  I was struggling to comprehend how people manage to run this thing earlier this year as I limped home in a lightning 10hrs something..... :bow:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on May 29, 2009, 10:48:56 am
That cheese rolling thing reminded me of something I saw on the other channel.

In August last year the Tryfan downhill dash was run for the first time since 1991. From Adam and Eve to the A5. The record is 8 mins (set in 1991) and the the record maker broke both wrists during the descent!  :o

Anyone know of any other bonkers downhill only races like this?

More info - http://www.eryriharriers.org.uk/mountain.html (http://www.eryriharriers.org.uk/mountain.html)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on January 04, 2010, 06:04:30 pm
Been working 7 days on for months on end so I've not run since early autumn.

On the plus side, finally got round to buying top running shoes w/ proper insoles, went w/ Brooks, €155 all in.  Really hoping the knee and hip pain won't return. 

Still snowy here but keen to get out in the woods again (it'll hurt).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chicane on February 09, 2010, 04:36:49 pm

Loving this iphone app
www.endomondo.com (http://www.endomondo.com)

my lunchtime run today -> http://www.endomondo.com/workouts?w=iefluIZGqew (http://www.endomondo.com/workouts?w=iefluIZGqew)

It's free and there is a version for other phones.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Houdini on February 09, 2010, 06:09:05 pm
I haven't run in ages, we've been hit by terrible ice w/ no sign of warming for weeks.

I might as well be on iceskates.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on March 01, 2010, 10:21:55 am
feel like my running is finally coming back together.

got the train from hathersaeg to edale and ran back over win hill and shatton moor.

snowy on the kinder stretch but pretty compacted and runnable.

met another runner on approach to win hill - which made me try loads harder on that ascent than otherwise, by the time i was going up to shatton mast was slowed right down.

weather forecast this weekend was totally wack - saturday was meant to be a nicer day - so went out on my bike - cue big fat snow, sleet like shards of glass and normal rain.  still cold but at least dry on sunday for the run.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on March 01, 2010, 10:43:26 am
Really hoping the knee and hip pain won't return. 
ITBS?

Nice one jfw. I'm feeling like my running is coming along too. Got the Gallop in a couple of weeks. Hoping for a good time.

Got any races lined up?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on March 01, 2010, 11:32:40 am
three peaks again 24th april - hoping to beat last years time.

kind of wish i'd got a skyline entry - but i was being extra cautious about doing too much after previous learning curve of getting ill and stuff.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on March 01, 2010, 12:00:12 pm
Good luck with the 3 peaks. The skyline scares me a lot.  :-[
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jfw on March 01, 2010, 04:53:56 pm
you'll be reet - you been out reccying (in the snow)?

all the skirt round short cuts round Jacob's ladder etc were well snowy last time I was on that side.

Look on the bright side - at least we're not doing the high peak marathon.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on March 01, 2010, 05:08:53 pm
I thought about doing the skyline and that thought was enough to put me off. Not been out to the peak running since the Tigger Tor (it's quite a way for me). Reccying that with a few of the Totley lot was just horrible. Shin high crusty snow. The gallop is long enough and hard enough for me at the moment.

High peak marathon  :'(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dolly on January 29, 2011, 10:13:56 pm
Did summat called the Park Run this morning.
I did it in Endcliffe Park in Sheff but they're all over the UK.
Basically a 5k organised race/run that starts @ 9:00 :o

Its free, you get a barcode which is effectively a basic timing device. Very friendly with a wide range of abilities. Everything from blokes doing it in 15 minutes to pensioners, people pushing buggies, families doing it together etc etc.
Well organised and an incentive to make sure you get out if you need something to get you going (and you're not pencilled in to climb that Saturday)
Will deffo do it again
link here  http://www.parkrun.org.uk/ (http://www.parkrun.org.uk/)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 29, 2011, 11:21:07 pm
so, what time did you get?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Danger on January 30, 2011, 12:21:24 pm
Did summat called the Park Run this morning.
I did it in Endcliffe Park in Sheff.

I also did this for the first time on Saturday. I really enjoyed it.

Will deffo do it again

Me too. I am aiming to make it every Saturday that I am not working or exceptionally hungover (probably about twice more this year then). I am doing the Sheffield half in May and as I seem to struggle with speed rather than endurance I am hoping a few more fast-frosty-5ks running with a group will see me right.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dolly on February 24, 2011, 06:53:51 pm
Used my Garmin forerunner 110 GPS thing for the first time today - its brilliant.
Looks like a watch rather than a 80s mobile phone strapped to your wrist.
Its a piece of piss to set up. I walked outside at work and it got GPS signals within about 15 seconds.
Just downloaded the software, plugged the thing in and got a detailed summary of my run. Max speed/ averages/k splits/time I spent waiting for traffic etc etc. And a detailed map showing exactly where I'd been.
I'm completely impressed - its much better than I thought it would be.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatkid2000 on February 24, 2011, 08:09:38 pm
Dolly - how much are they?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dolly on February 24, 2011, 11:48:36 pm
£119 from amazon was the cheapest I could
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Falling Down on October 07, 2011, 01:17:17 pm
Bill Smith had died whilst out running.  I wrote a little blog piece (http://bensblogredux.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/stud-marks-on-the-summit/) this morning.

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on October 07, 2011, 02:02:33 pm
A quick bit of research on the book has led me to this electronic copy here (http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/studmarks/)

I look forward to reading it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: underground on October 07, 2011, 05:41:53 pm
Me too. Just joined the FRA actually
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on October 10, 2011, 07:59:45 pm
Found this inspiring and rather amusing at the same time. It's the arms that get me, along with the choice of music. Seems to fit.

Borrowdale Fell Race 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OsL6brYV-I#)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on November 15, 2011, 11:58:19 pm
I have committed myself to running the Keswick half marathon next year, pretty psyched tbh. I went out for my first run of more than 20 metres in total, in the best part of 15 years. I was fairly happy to manage 4.5 miles in just over 50 minutes. The only downside is the intense pain I've endured since! On a serious note, I've had major pain down the outside edge of my right foot, ouch. Only painful when weighted I.e. stood up and slowly going but a bit of a wake up call I guess. One can't just start running and expect it to be as simple as that!

Any specific tips for the budding runner folks?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: underground on November 16, 2011, 07:25:04 am
What footwear did you use Golt?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Snoops on November 16, 2011, 09:03:04 am
I can't help with the specifics, but having run on the fells for 15 years, these things often happen when your back from a break/layoff. There are many little muscles and ligaments in the feet I've torn a couple, someone with expertise in the feet/legs may help more. I have had had similar pains to what you describe, and usually go in a couple of weeks. If it doesn't get it zapped, but a stress fracture would be more medial (on the top of your foot), what you describe is a common site of muscle pull.

My advice once its better, would be to do more often shorter runs, and let your musculature get in the groove. Then build it up.

You wouldn't stop climbing for 10 years and then  get straight on the campus board would you ;)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: tommytwotone on November 16, 2011, 09:05:37 am
Anyone doing the Abbey Dash on Sunday?

Have done it the last few years, last year culminating in a post Great North Run wind down PB...considering I haven't really done any running since then I'll be happy with a sub-55!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on November 16, 2011, 10:15:09 pm
What footwear did you use Golt?

I think my choice of footwear may not have been ideal. I had purchased some New Balance runners but left them at my folks house so resorted to using some shitty old addidas i had.

The foot is feeling better today, reckon ill be fit enough to get out again on friday.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: boulderingbacon on November 21, 2011, 11:10:03 pm
golt sounds to me like some foot strengthening is in order. running is the opposite of climbing in terms of how we use our feet. when running then need to be pliable and able to splay but if your like me after years of cramming feet into climbing shoes your feet will have stiffened up somewhat. balance boards are really good for this and also just walking round in bare feet will help.  it wont take to long, just keep building the miles up slowly and you will be surprised how quickly it comes back.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Graeme78 on November 22, 2011, 06:56:18 am
Little and often to begin with, three times a week, two x twenty-thirty minute runs to begin with, then maybe 45 minutes at the weekend. If your struggling to get out mid-week try and make sure you do your weekly long run. Remember it's ok to run and walk, easier to get away with if your on the fells. And don't forget to stretch. A lot of minor niggles can be alleviated with a bit of stretching, key areas for me are calves and hamstrings.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: sidewinder on November 22, 2011, 08:18:32 am
Some good advice already.

Cricket ball or similar placed under the foot and 'rolled' really helps with tension you may be building up in the sole of your foot.  Worth trying to build up easy as already said otherwise shin splints/stress fractures in foot/plantar fasciitis(strained arch) can easily sideline you.

Also worth remembering, that people will be running it in all sorts of time, probably up to at least 3 hrs which is pretty much walking, so providing you stay uninjured enough to get round and just get fit enough to do it at any pace over 4.33 mph you are unlikely to be last!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: TobyD on November 22, 2011, 09:35:04 am
And don't forget to stretch. A lot of minor niggles can be alleviated with a bit of stretching, key areas for me are calves and hamstrings.
All good advice as far as i can see.
Stretch after running, not before, or during; and hold stretches for a good 20-30 sec. little 5 sec holds will not do, and no trying to bounce into a deeper stretch. I tend to do quads, hamstrings & calves
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: TobyD on November 22, 2011, 11:04:36 am
anyone with ITB niggles might find this interesting / useful:
http://gonzo.studentenweb.org/_php/run/docs/itb1.pdf (http://gonzo.studentenweb.org/_php/run/docs/itb1.pdf)

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 11, 2013, 04:26:36 pm
http://acceptableintheighties.wordpress.com/ (http://acceptableintheighties.wordpress.com/)

or 'Have standards gone backwards?'
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on July 16, 2013, 12:29:49 pm
jesus mother fucking h christ it's hot.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dolly on July 16, 2013, 01:53:35 pm
I hate running when its like this -  I went out before 8 this morning but I was still sweating like a pig after about 10 minutes -  or a mwchin seeing as I'm in Wales.
Going to try running higher up some hills tomorrow to see if its any cooler
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on July 16, 2013, 02:18:48 pm
Only myself to blame really, lay in bed till it was brutally hot, then felt guilty so went out at the worst time. mad dogs...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on September 01, 2015, 04:53:07 pm
Topic resurrection....

Signed up for the Lancaster Half in November, anybody done it? GCW? Any beta? Ta.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GCW on September 01, 2015, 05:38:36 pm
Not done it, but it's pretty flat and a good course for a PB. You've done halts before, haven't you.
I've stupidly entered the Lakeland 100 again. Oops.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 01, 2015, 09:07:33 pm
Fool.

Mate just completed UTMB. Running for 21ish hours, sounds like no fun.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on September 06, 2015, 10:54:42 am
Not done it, but it's pretty flat and a good course for a PB. You've done halts before, haven't you.
I've stupidly entered the Lakeland 100 again. Oops.

I had a quick gander at the course, looks ok and seen as though it's only my second half marathon, I've only got the very hilly Keswick one to benchmark against! Hoping to beat my time from that one.

I must take my hat off to you matey, that's some commitment to go through again! Respect  8)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatdoc on April 26, 2016, 08:22:48 pm
copy and pasted from the fell runners thread, to blatantly get the most exposure... as I'm really not sure about this... but kinda really want to give it a go... * shitting myself*

just realised the burbage skyline is next week, I'm comfortably hitting 8 km in 44 mins up all the hills in graves park... hilliest possible route... could easy do 42 mins if i didnt run it when the park is busy.... will I die? I just want to finish!!c'mon... say it how it is, I'm an old man, and it's a bucket list thing...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: DWTJ on April 26, 2016, 10:45:52 pm
copy and pasted from the fell runners thread, to blatantly get the most exposure... as I'm really not sure about this... but kinda really want to give it a go... * shitting myself*

just realised the burbage skyline is next week, I'm comfortably hitting 8 km in 44 mins up all the hills in graves park... hilliest possible route... could easy do 42 mins if i didnt run it when the park is busy.... will I die? I just want to finish!!c'mon... say it how it is, I'm an old man, and it's a bucket list thing...

You'll be absolutely fine. You won't win but you won't be last and I'm sure you'll have a great time. It's not too hilly, lots of very runnable sections. It's brilliant, one of the best local ones!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: roddersm on April 28, 2016, 12:04:26 pm
I recently started monitoring HR whilst running and was really surprised to see that I was hitting around 90% max average HR, although didn't feel I was working that hard.

This seems unusually high for this duration of running (40min - 1hour). 

Does anyone else monitor HR and if so what sort to % max do you aim for - for general fitness and active rest between climbing days?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: bigtuboflard on April 28, 2016, 01:16:45 pm
I recently started monitoring HR whilst running and was really surprised to see that I was hitting around 90% max average HR, although didn't feel I was working that hard.

This seems unusually high for this duration of running (40min - 1hour). 

Does anyone else monitor HR and if so what sort to % max do you aim for - for general fitness and active rest between climbing days?
I track my HR on every run i do. My peak is about 194, though haven't hit that in a while. If I'm doing a general mid-week run just to get out on the hills, my HR will average around 165 and when pushing a bit harder on the hills, go up to mid-170's. I tend to feel absolutely fine at 165 and only start to feel like I working hard when over 170.

If I'm doing long races (2, 3 hours or more) I focus on keeping my HR at around 150 to 155. If I stick in that zone I can generally go for hours (done 6 hour races ok at that pace) so long as I keep fuelled up. Conversely, if i am doing a race which nice and short (think summer series races in the Peak) I can just about hang on for an hour in the upper 170's, but not for much longer.

If you want a look at some of the stats my Movescount page is here;
 
http://www.movescount.com/members/member269724-bigtuboflard

Lastly, I'd say its of course all very much relative, both in terms of max HR and how you feel on it, as I know other club runners who feel like they are about to implode at 150 but can do 3 hour marathons at 140ish HR pace.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: roddersm on April 28, 2016, 01:38:11 pm
My HR max is around 183 so I was averaging >160 BPM.

I guess for recovery keeping this a bit lower might be an idea but sounds like it's healthy enough to train at this intensity?
Title: One for the runners
Post by: bigtuboflard on April 28, 2016, 06:51:51 pm
Yep no problem at all. You might feel a bit wiped out but so long as you're not hammering it every day I reckon you'll be fine.

Bizarrely I always know when I've pushed too hard as at the end of the run I can smell ammonia quite strongly. Something to do with breaking down something or other. Probably have to google it again now ...

Edit. Apparently I was dehydrated.

http://blog.walkjogrun.net/2015/09/08/why-do-i-smell-ammonia-after-a-run/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on April 28, 2016, 07:43:21 pm
@roddersm being able to maintain >87% of max heart rate for 40mins and not feel like you were working that hard suggests to me that your max heart maybe higher than you think.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 24, 2016, 08:31:41 pm
I did 9k today - Froggatt bend to The Eagle Stone and back

this is the second run I have done in the last year and the furthest I have run since 2007

it made me very tired

I ran with my wife - which was nice - and was the whole point of going out
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on May 24, 2016, 08:49:17 pm
Cool, have a [Wad] point Lagers.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on May 25, 2016, 10:47:16 am
struggling to walk this morning, but the ankle didn't wake me up in the night
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on May 25, 2016, 10:57:51 am
I'm meant to be doing a SUPathlon in August; 750m stand up paddle, 10k MTB, 3k cross country run. The run is causing me the most concern! Not run any distance since about 1988.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on September 18, 2017, 07:21:46 pm
So, inspired by SA Chris, Reeve and various others, I'm going to try and dust my running shoes off and get keen again. This could prove to be harder than it sounds though! I've ran a couple of half marathons, and a couple of ten milers before. There is a 10k race coming up locally, 3 weeks yesterday. Having not ran anything close to that distance in about 2 years, is is unrealistic to think I can manage this race and not come last? I'm in general physicality fit, but most definitely not in condition at present. However, this could be the catalyst I need to get going again. The last half marathon I did I was totally unprepared, and it showed. Can I expect to be embarrassed or is it worth a shot?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on September 18, 2017, 09:33:43 pm
I think this answers my question.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-manchester-41308600/bury-woman-80-runs-10k-race-after-double-hip-op
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lagerstarfish on September 18, 2017, 09:34:18 pm
a steady 10k with half a dozen runs to get you into the swing seems OK

I did something similar from a very low base

(see above)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on September 18, 2017, 09:42:27 pm
That was my thinking too Lagers. Twice a week, for three weeks, with a good few days rest (from running) before actual race.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 19, 2017, 07:25:02 am
Glad to inspire! Short answer is of course. Make sure you warm up first, warm down after and take it really easy the first couple of times out, your biggest danger is injuring your self. And stretch inbetween. Be realistic and build up, you don't want to get DOMs and be out of action for days.

PS when I started running again last summer it was the first time in earnest since 1988 when I was 19. I'm 48 now, no excuses!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatneck on September 19, 2017, 11:12:02 am
Effort Mike  :2thumbsup:

Having only started running this year at 42 with no athletic background other than a bit of cross country as a 10 year old and now comfortably running 20k+ a week I'm sure you'll smash it! Good warm ups and Pilates mid week has kept me injury free lately...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatneck on September 22, 2017, 09:47:50 am
Just been reading back through this thread - gold... Also realised Mike Tyson is Golt!!!

Have very quickly gone from "I just want to be able to run 5k three times a week to keep the weight off for climbing" to "shit, if I don't run in the next two days I might lose my mind" - this is a bit of a concern...

I've been suffering with what I have assumed is a shin splint in my right leg for a number of months now. I run three times a week, I stretch dynamically before each run and more statically afterwards and do Pilates twice a week as well as climbing twice a week on average (fishing, as you can imagine has taken a back seat recently...) It doesn't bother me when I'm running once I'm warm but can be very sore the next day particularly after walking to work in the morning.

Starting to get a bit 'noid that I might have a stress fracture - any advice welcome.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on September 22, 2017, 10:00:04 am
Starters for ten.....
What is the condition of your running shoes? Are they old and knackered?
Were they fitted with your gait analysed to ensure you have the correct support?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatneck on September 22, 2017, 10:45:29 am
Running shoes are in pretty good nick. I rotate between two pairs of Asics - Gel 9 Enduro for road and Gel Trabucco 13 for trail but it is total fluke that Asics seem to fit my Hobbit feet and I have never had a gait analysis done. I suppose this would be a good place to start! Thanks
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 22, 2017, 11:13:40 am
What Plattsy said. One of the best things I did when I started again was go to to the local running shop, get on their treadmill, let them have a look at how I run, and recommend me some shoes. You might get them cheaper on line, but the service wasn't worth it. I think my pair of running trainers (Nike Air Pegasus from 1994) were a bit long in the tooth anyway.

Also foam rolling might be a good idea to loosen up the legs, and the occasional sports massage seems to help.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on September 22, 2017, 06:16:18 pm
First of all. Lol! to the not being able to lay off the running  ;D Really sorry to put it like that, with the other problems, but, join the club! Now, seriously. Have you been given a diagnosis of shin splints, or could it be something else? Many people suffer from complications due to pronation of the foot under load. A common occurance, often mistaken for shin splints is posterior tibial tendon pain: "localised pain.. sometimes stretching up a few inches onto your shin" - https://runnersconnect.net/posterior-tibial-tendonitis/  Very well worth checking out. You're also likely to become well acquainted with a number of other common ailments along the way. Hope that is helpful. Right, off for a run!  ;D
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mike Tyson on September 26, 2017, 07:43:41 am
Well, my little ambition of running the local 10k is in tatters. Literally three days after I posted on here, with such excitement and anticipation, my left leg took an absolute beating at work. Cut a branch which was under loads of side tension, and it sprung out at a fair rate of speed and hit me full pelt on my leg just below kneecap at top of my shin. Dropped my saw, tear in my eye almost, man did it hurt.

I’ve waited a week and it’s still painful to walk on, up and down stairs hurts like hell and I’m dosed up on painkillers to get through the working day. So I’m not going to be running a 10k any time soon folks, sorry to disappoint.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatneck on September 26, 2017, 04:06:05 pm
Ha! Thanks Dave ;D No diagnosis but seems the most likely explanation from the research I've done. My local running shop does free gait analysis so will pop in next week and see what that says...

And unlucky Mike!!! Sounds well grim...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Monolith on September 26, 2017, 04:19:57 pm
I'll chime in with the usual:

Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning, conditioning, conditioning,conditioning, conditioning,conditioning, conditioning. Hips, quads, glutes.

https://runnersconnect.net/the-top-5-hip-strengthening-exercises-for-runners-to-prevent-injury-and-improve-hip-drive/

Sorry to hear about the injury MT! Hopefully the pain subsides soon for you to get cracking.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on September 26, 2017, 04:28:34 pm
Some on-line resources I've been making use of recently:

http://physioedge.com.au/podcasts/

Long blog post on here about shin pain...
http://www.running-physio.com/

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2017, 04:46:39 pm
Kinetic revolution vids are quite good too.

My DOMs finally subsided by Saturday ( a full week) to a point where i actually feel like going for a run again
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: fatneck on October 03, 2017, 02:54:18 pm
Did a night run with a mad mate of mine on Saturday - super fun!!!

https://www.relive.cc/view/1209294333

Also, cows sound super weird and scary at night...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: andy_e on October 03, 2017, 02:58:21 pm
I got chased by a load of bullocks once at twilight whilst out for a run. That was spooky.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on October 03, 2017, 04:36:09 pm
Did a night run with a mad mate of mine on Saturday - super fun!!!

https://www.relive.cc/view/1209294333

Also, cows sound super weird and scary at night...

It is fun. Doing this next month, should be good http://www.illuminatorrun.co.uk/
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 03, 2017, 05:20:34 pm
On the same theme, there's an 8k Hathersage Night Race on 23 November

http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races.php?id=5355

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 28, 2017, 11:16:20 am
Heart rate training

I've been using a heart rate monitor all year. The thing is, I find it nigh on impossible to train in 'recommended' zones as they just don't seem to reflect the level of effort I am putting in.

My resting heart rate is 57bpm. My max heart rate is 188bpm. I'm aged 41.

I can barely shuffle at anything less than 155bpm and even 160-165 feels pretty aerobic and 'conversational'. Tempo pace 'feels' around 170 - 172bpm i.e. 90% ish of my max heart rate.

I note there are coaches who don't like perceiving effort by heart rate percentage.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 28, 2017, 02:31:43 pm
Hi Tom.

First thoughts.

I always found using the HR monitor very useful for encouraging slower running. The term "conversational" can be used to the same effect of course. I think a lot of runners think this means squeezing in sentences between "huffs", which is better thought of as "huffing" (70-79% HRM).

I think that "conversational" running is better thought of as recovery work - slow and easy - the purpose being, to recover properly for your next hard training day. As they say, you can't run too slowly on your easy days, only too quickly!

When I'm running, there are days when I could definitely walk as quickly as I run, but that's so that I'm fully recharged - both physically and psychologically - for my next hard workout.

What you refer to as barely a "shuffle" is probably what you need to do more of, do that you have more energy for your hard days. In running, it doesn't work very well, to try to go out to "perform" as often as we like to think we can when we're climbing.

The overhanging emphasis on performance/self-monitoring will probably result in a degree of under-resting. When we are not resting adequately, our HR "bandwidth" is massively reduced, meaning that it takes very little exertion to cause a spike in heart rate, but also, our maximum heart rate is also reduced. I like to think of the top and bottom of these ranges as our "powerband". Athletic performance depends significantly on having a wider HR range to work with, and this is what's compromised when we don't rest sufficiently.

I love this stuff btw, so would be really happy to talk about it. The other think I made a particular note of was that the number of times we're able to "peak" in a season goes down significantly as we get older. (I was going to say "in our 40s", but Paul doesn't like it if I forget how old he is  :P )

Hope that's of some relevance.
Dave.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 28, 2017, 06:44:50 pm
That's a really useful reply Dave, thank you.

I think one of my 'issues' is whilst I try and measure 'time on my feet' over mileage, I inevitably track the latter and slower running does not equate to more miles. Especially when mid-week training slots are often restricted to 1 hour i.e. lunch break.

Also, when you're as slow as me, it takes a lot to set the ego aside and run at true conversational pace.

I am trying to run more frequently, which necessitates slower, aerobic, running most of the time. My goals are along these lines anyway i.e. longer fell runs, plus I have a proximal hamstring tendinopathy injury, which is speed limiting.

Overall, I think my base fitness is still relatively poor as I just haven't been running for that long and therefore my HR band is not that wide.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on October 28, 2017, 07:18:46 pm
Heart rate training

I've been using a heart rate monitor all year. The thing is, I find it nigh on impossible to train in 'recommended' zones as they just don't seem to reflect the level of effort I am putting in.

My resting heart rate is 57bpm. My max heart rate is 188bpm. I'm aged 41.

I can barely shuffle at anything less than 155bpm and even 160-165 feels pretty aerobic and 'conversational'. Tempo pace 'feels' around 170 - 172bpm i.e. 90% ish of my max heart rate.

I note there are coaches who don't like perceiving effort by heart rate percentage.

Any thoughts?
Have you done a max heart rate test or are you just guessing at what it is or worse 220 minus your age.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 28, 2017, 07:28:56 pm
Yes I did a max heart rate test using my HRM.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 29, 2017, 03:10:53 am
I think it would be a good discipline to try not to worry about the mileage, Tom!

Borrow someone's dog, or trot along the edges, doing a route here and there. A couple of years ago, I went out regularly, picking up aluminium cans, jogging along with a bag for between 1.5 - 2.5 hours at a time. Anything like that is a good way of helping to keep the pace down.

The problem, is that if your heart rate starts to increase, you'll be filling in with your anaerobic system, and therefore harming the base level work.

Another thing that I used to find really effective, was going out for 2 or 3 short and easy runs in the day. I used to have about 2 quick days per week. Elite athletes will typically have a far greater difference between their slow and quick paces, than less experienced runners. That's worth bearing in mind.

Finally, 15 minutes shuffling might be the best way of starting a longer session. You'll gradually increase your pace anyway, as you become stronger/fitter.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 30, 2017, 10:59:54 am
Thanks Dave - much appreciated. Some excellent suggestions there. It's a challenge when you have limited time to train and of course enjoy 'pushing it'.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on October 30, 2017, 11:36:02 am
When training for ultras a couple of years ago I started using a HRM and followed some guidance in a book a friend lent me. To train for endurance and hoping to train my body to use fat as fuel I planned to run from Totley to Millhouses and back (6 miles as flat as possible) 5 days a week (with longer runs the other 2 days). After a max heart test my 70% was 147 bpm. The book advised as soon as you go over this walk and if that doesn't work stop until it drops below. The first 6 miler took 1hr 11mins and it was very frustrating and I must have stood still several times looking at my watch waiting for it to drop. Going up uphill I was allowed an extra 5 bpm on top.

After doing this for about 4 months over the same route I could run at 147 easily without walking/stopping and the time was down to 52 mins. Doing the same down Chesterfield canal the time was quicker over the same effort and distance.

I think it definitely increased my endurance and ability to plod for a long time. Lost a lot of top speed in the process though.  :devangel:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 30, 2017, 12:37:48 pm
Interesting Andy. So was the idea of running on the flat due to it being easier to keep the HR down? How were the legs once you hit uphills in racing?

At the moment half of my lunch time sub 1-hr runs include two or three laps of the ski village i.e. 200-300m ascent putting me well into the anaerobic zone. Sounds like I may be better shuffling on the flat more, despite my aspirations being in the hills.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on October 30, 2017, 01:11:24 pm
My longer runs were in the hills where I walked the hills or jogged up them slowly which is what I expected to do in the ultras.

I'm no expert but I guess for shorter races up to 10 miles a mixture of aerobic (<70%), threshold training (~85%) and hill reps (~85%) would see benefits. Maybe one threshold, one hill reps and the rest aerobic per week to create a base and take it from there.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Plattsy on October 30, 2017, 03:17:13 pm
So was the idea of running on the flat due to it being easier to keep the HR down?
Forgot to reply to this. Yep pretty much that.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 30, 2017, 05:13:33 pm
Thanks Andy
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on October 30, 2017, 05:50:32 pm

It is fun. Doing this next month, should be good http://www.illuminatorrun.co.uk/

Great fun. Appreciate it's out of the way for a lot of you, but a great event. I took it really (too?) easy, as I've not trained much recently and getting over cold, managed under intended 3 hours walking most of the uphills. Had to stop to refuel, was feeling really empty and stopped to see if someone was OK, who stacked pretty badly..

And well done to richieb for cruising his way round it in 2:22.

Winning time of 1:36 is just nuts though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: richieb on October 30, 2017, 07:18:50 pm
Cheers Chris, it was ace. A real experience seeing the long line of torches snaking over the moors.
Where else does the pre-race briefing include guidance on what to do if you get attacked by a Capercaillie?  :o
The venison broth at the finish was good as well.



Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on October 31, 2017, 09:45:40 am
I was disappointed not to see any TBH, not seen one yet.

XC winter 10 k series starts this weekend, Knockburn Loch.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: GazM on October 31, 2017, 11:03:21 am
I was disappointed not to see any TBH, not seen one yet.


If you slip me a few bob I can let you in on the secret knowledge Chris ;)

In case any of the funding partners of the Capercaillie Project are reading this, that's a joke, honest.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on November 01, 2017, 07:53:20 am
So shuffled my way around the White Edge-Curbar-Froggatt loop last night at 70% (134bpm), which entailed quite a bit of walking. Despite it being fairly flat I had to pretty much walk any incline. It was actually quite fun in a way being so easy and not feeling tired afterwards. Amusing moment was passing some walkers very slowly!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on December 04, 2017, 11:47:53 am
Update.

I've completed 5 weeks of running incorporating more aerobic work, running at a very easy pace. Quite a bit of shuffling to and from work.

Some thoughts:

For a relative beginner it's taken me a long time to use a HR monitor properly, to leave the ego behind and to learn to run at a very gentle pace. I wish I'd been doing this 12 months ago, as I probably wouldn't have been injured. That said, overall you of course need to increase the volume to mix in some harder training with the aerobic stuff. So climbing has been squeezed. In the New Year I plan to start doing some more specific workouts to try and increase speed, but for now I'm gonna keep plodding (off on a work trip over Xmas, which will involve walking very slowly uphill).

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: bigironhorse on May 04, 2020, 05:16:15 pm
I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction for sorting out a problem I've been struggling with for a few years whenever I try to start running again.

Every year or so I try and get into running again and the result is always the same - the first few weeks of short flattish runs are great, and then my left knee starts to hurt. Specifically, the pain seems to originate from the superior tibio-fibular joint. Through a lot of trial and error and some internet reading I now strongly suspect that this is related to my poor ankle dorsiflexion - as I understand it, poor dorsiflexion causes excessive torsion of the fibula which causes irritation in the superior tib-fib joint. The obvious answer to this would be to improve the ankle dorsiflexion, however my ankles are knackered from jumping off high problems on to crap pads for years (I had an MRI at some point and it showed "chondral defect on the tibial plafond") and no amount of calf stretching seems to yield any improvements. I have also found that taping around the top of the calf to support the superior tib-fib joint to be useful, however this seemed to move the problem further up my leg, as I then developed hip pain (feels like greater trochanter bursitits).

Does anyone have any good resources or knowledge about these kinds of problems? It was previously suggested (after the ankle MRI) that surgery could improve the dorsiflexion, but I would rather avoid this if possible. I have found that running uphill is worst for the knee - I think because keeping feet flat when running uphill requires the greatest degree of dorsiflexion. Perhaps changing my gait could help?

I flipping love running up and down hills and I am feeling quite motivated to sort this out so any pointers would be much appreciated!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on May 04, 2020, 06:12:27 pm
A couple of ideas though feel free to ignore.

Maybe try doing 2 or 3 sessions pw of specific strength training?

Myofacial release? You probably have a lot of tightness somewhere if you’ve got a knackered ankle.

What drop are your shoes? I run in 4,6 and 8mm drop fell/trail shoes. It’s definitely harder going uphill in the 4mm (also have crap dorsiflexion due to broken ankle).

Shorten stride??

Definitely worth persevering, especially at the moment. Can’t imagine keeping sane without being able to run.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on May 04, 2020, 06:15:08 pm
Sally Fawcett has been recommended previously if you’re after a physio.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: bigironhorse on May 04, 2020, 06:59:20 pm
Cheers for the reply. I have been doing a bit more stretching and foam rolling recently so hopefully that will help a bit. I am wearing asics trail shoes with 10mm drop.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on May 05, 2020, 09:42:20 am
In general terms i wonder if compression socks would help? You can pick up some reasonable ones from Decathlon for not a lot of money so might be worth a whirl. Possibly some of the supercushioned Hokkas would be helpful too, not these monstrosities though! https://www.hokaoneone.eu/en/gb/trail-products/tennine/1109689.html
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: TobyD on August 16, 2020, 11:11:04 pm
Has anyone on here ever stress fractured a metatarsal?
I'm very concerned that I probably have, although I had an XR yesterday which didn't show one, symptomatically it seems likely, and mechanism of injury is very typical.
If anyone has, what was your recovery period, and any rehabilitation methods etc recommended?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 14, 2020, 12:59:07 pm
I thought I'd post this up here, to cover a little bit of confusion about "interval training" mentioned in the thread about Recruitment Pulls.

I also think it might be good to start a separate "running for climbers" thread - to look at ways of running that might maximise benefits, hinder recovery less etc.

Re Interval Training. The term "interval" actually refers to the period of rest. More generally, training runs are either (more or less) constant pace, or varied pace. Interval training falls into the latter, obviously.

Interval training sessions can be designed to target many different aspects of fitness - race pace, tempo, endurance-speed, hill work, power, VO2 Max etc.

This could involve running 400m laps or book-ending a couple of 10k runs.

The "rest" interval could mean walking for 60s or running 1km below threshold.

All this, depending on what you want to work/target.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Rob F on November 14, 2020, 03:55:55 pm
Just checked my go to training book:

"Sasha DiGiulian, one of the best endurance sport climbers, and Alex Megos, one of the world's best on-sight climbers, both make running a regular part of their training. Perhaps you should too!"

Doesn't mention either of these two doing any foot on campusing though...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: nai on November 14, 2020, 04:53:16 pm
but what would they do if they were locked down with just a four rung campus board in an alley and the psyche to be fit for routes.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Rob F on November 14, 2020, 05:17:15 pm
He would buy a big beer barrel, hammer some campus rungs onto it...

...and then Jim Pope would beat him in a footless campus fight to the death
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on November 14, 2020, 05:39:15 pm

I also think it might be good to start a separate "running for climbers" thread - to look at ways of running that might maximise benefits, hinder recovery less etc.

Here’s my tuppence. I think you can rotate between the two, say every 4 or 6 months. Trying to do either at the same time at a decent personal level requires too much time for most people and just not enough recovery time, unless you’re really young maybe? I just end up knackered trying to eg run 5 x pw and climb 4 sessions. John M or Stabbsy maybe disagree.

It’s useful to be aerobically fit if you want to climb well after a mountain crag walk in. Climbing in the Alps is brilliant. You can also pull on smaller holds despite being weaker, as you tend to be lighter.

Despite the focus on climbing training, without a lot of time on actual rock you just won’t get anywhere near your potential. I lost a lot of running fitness this summer, but I was climbing better than I have in over a decade. A bit of gentle running is ok but I just don’t see how doing anything infrequently, but at a higher intensity, is not going to lead to injury (though IIRC this is what Ben Moon was doing (prescribed?) a couple of years ago). More volume, so that you can tolerate some more intense sessions, means too much running and not enough climbing!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: tomtom on November 14, 2020, 07:54:19 pm
@TB I remember one of the Randal/Lattice interviews about training for older climbers made that point (lots of other exercise hampers recovery and thus climbing performance and ability to train).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on January 08, 2021, 01:55:28 pm
Noted a couple of people mentioned running on  ice, a set of the cheap shoe spikes (I got some from Lidl) or similar are invaluable. I had some in the bottom of a drawer for a couple of years, but never used in anger. They are a fiddle to get on, probably worth fitting to a spare pair and leaving in place. They fit especially well on Nikes with the pointy heel if you have any.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on January 08, 2021, 03:37:03 pm
At the less cheap end of the scale, I’ve finally got to use my Nortec Trail micro crampons (185gms a pair). They are a bit fiddly to get on, but they’re properly amazing to run in. No good for pavements and I’ve been quite careful on rock as they could scratch up grit.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on January 08, 2021, 03:50:29 pm
I’d been thinking of getting a pair of Orocs or similar that have built-in spikes. I’ve had some Petzl ones that you pull over the shoe and they didn’t last long, so was looking for a better solution.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: RobK on January 08, 2021, 03:54:46 pm
I’d been thinking of getting a pair of Orocs or similar that have built-in spikes.

Obviously a bit specialised but I've had a pair before and they're good. Icebugs are another alternative if you're looking at going down that route.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on January 08, 2021, 04:08:39 pm
No good for pavements and I’ve been quite careful on rock as they could scratch up grit.

Yeah, sound like a tapdancer! I'm sticking to shorter routes around the area up to 10 k for now. I tested them on some wet rock by the sea and they were no better than normal trainers i.e shite.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on June 17, 2021, 11:50:22 am
https://live.opentracking.co.uk/sowjune2021/

214 Lakeland Summits in under 6 days.

If she'd done just one with 2 hangry children and not wanted to kill them I'd be more impressed though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: remus on June 17, 2021, 12:45:15 pm
Jesus, not a lot of time for sleeping in those splits! Looks like something less than 12.5hrs over 6 days...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: galpinos on June 17, 2021, 02:15:46 pm
Jesus, not a lot of time for sleeping in those splits! Looks like something less than 12.5hrs over 6 days...

Stolen from the other channel:
Quote
From Steve Birkinshaw:

Sabrina's Wainwright record stats:
total=144hr, moving=129hr, resting=15hr (~6 hours sleep)
Paul T (previous record):
total=150hr, moving=113hr, resting=37hr.
Sabs has the amazing physical and mental toughness to keep moving with very little sleep/rest.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on June 17, 2021, 02:26:43 pm
Can you imagine that, the mental and physical strain of keeping on going like that when you are exhausted, tired and utterly fucked.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on June 17, 2021, 03:33:00 pm
Chin on floor emoji!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 15, 2022, 10:47:49 am
Because it deserves noting somewhere:

Jasmin Paris completed a Fun Run at this year's Barkley Marathons, becoming the first woman in a decade to do so.

N.B. A "Fun Run" is three loops of the course; this year, only 2 runners even made it onto loop four, and neither finished it within the time limit. The full race is five loops and there have only been 15 finishers in the history of the race.

https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/news/a39393890/jasmin-paris-barkley-marathons/

For anyone not familiar with the living nightmare that is the Barkley, I can rec the excellent documentary  "The Barkley Marathons: The Race That Eats Its Young."
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on March 15, 2022, 10:53:00 am
It's an amazing achievement, up there with her astonishing spine race achievement a few years back

https://www.inov-8.com/eu/jasmin-paris-recordbreaking-spine-race-win

(I do sometimes wonder if my insomnia and ability to fall asleep anywhere when tired would be an asset to completing a race like this, but not really prepared to try it and see).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on March 15, 2022, 11:29:55 am
I guess it’s hard to really know but my understanding is it’s basically impossible to finish Barkley as a ‘virgin’ and that most people rely on teaming up with a ‘veteran’ on their first attempt. I’d be interested in the stats for how many people have finished a Fun Run on their first attempt? Reading between the lines it doesn’t sound like she really teamed up with anyone. She’s obviously a world-class athlete and quite capable of a finish with a bit more experience of the topography. Hope she goes back.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on March 15, 2022, 12:24:44 pm
Some not-thorough googling has led me to John Fegyveresi finishing first time, and Brett Maune having 2 finishes from 2 starts! But generally, people don't seem to be managing it first attempt
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Paul B on March 15, 2022, 01:23:19 pm
For anyone not familiar with the living nightmare that is the Barkley, I can rec the excellent documentary  "The Barkley Marathons: The Race That Eats Its Young."

Can you recommend any streaming services where I can find it please?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on March 15, 2022, 01:34:58 pm
It was on Netflix for ages but doesn’t seem to be any more?

The film about Gary Robbins’ excruciating near completion is on YouTube and is worth a watch.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 15, 2022, 01:55:59 pm
For anyone not familiar with the living nightmare that is the Barkley, I can rec the excellent documentary  "The Barkley Marathons: The Race That Eats Its Young."

Can you recommend any streaming services where I can find it please?

You can currently rent it on iTunes for 99p. Looks like you can also buy/rent it direct at https://barkleymovie.com  -- more expensive, but there's a "bonus features" option.

"Where Dreams Go To Die", the Gary Robbins film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDZdsqbcGTU

While I'm spamming links, here's the wonderful article by Leslie Jamison that inspired the film-makers of "The Race That Eats Its Young" to try to make a film about the Barkley in the first place:

https://believermag.com/the-immortal-horizon/
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on March 15, 2022, 03:05:39 pm
slightly OT, but what is it with (ultra) runners and massive beards. I can think of nothing worse than have that on my face when running long distance.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 15, 2022, 07:39:49 pm
I guess it’s hard to really know but my understanding is it’s basically impossible to finish Barkley as a ‘virgin’ and that most people rely on teaming up with a ‘veteran’ on their first attempt. I’d be interested in the stats for how many people have finished a Fun Run on their first attempt? Reading between the lines it doesn’t sound like she really teamed up with anyone. She’s obviously a world-class athlete and quite capable of a finish with a bit more experience of the topography. Hope she goes back.

Interview with her about it (apparently she did team up with other runners a bit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_CslWF81DE

She says she's not yet officially decided whether she'll go back. But also she's got ideas on how she'd improve her chances if she did ...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on March 16, 2022, 10:02:57 pm
Very impressive. I’ve got a cherished race photo if me in front of Jasmin Paris …she was in a fun team on a relay and closing fast  :look:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on May 01, 2022, 10:29:53 pm
JK out on the Wainwrights again this week, starting 10am tomorrow. Hopefully he makes it round this time - record or no record, would just be great to see a completion. He says he's got "an ambitious goal" which I assume would be record pace, but not explicit about that yet.

https://live.opentracking.co.uk/jkw2022/
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Bradders on August 12, 2022, 07:34:38 am
Anyone have some advice on making running with a large rucksack comfortable?

I'm running home from work once a week and, with my laptop, clothes, etc., especially if I've been to the wall in the morning, I'm carrying a fairly large, heavy ish pack. This has been giving me friction burns around my lower back where it's rubbed, despite it being a very adjustable and comfortable bag. Is there any way to stop / reduce this?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lukeyboy on August 12, 2022, 08:29:42 am
That's a tricky one, if you already have a decent bag. My advice would be to reduce bounce in the bag by tightening all the straps etc and bringing the load as close to your back as possible, strap the bag tightly to you to try and minimise movement / chafing, and then finally try to adjust your gait to be as un-bouncy as possible, basically a lope. You might be doing all of these things already.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on August 12, 2022, 10:13:40 am
Yeah assuming your bag is tight around your torso at the bottom (some sort of strap(s) around your waist/abs/chest, depending on bag size), I can't think of many ways to stop it rubbing! At some point, a heavy bag is a heavy bag and it's always going to be difficult to run with. Maybe worth looking into what people use on things like The Spine Race, with heavy/bulky kit requirements - the caveat being that they often aren't running fast so may be less prone to issues caused by bouncing.

A way to avoid the issue all together might be something along the lines of: travel to work normally, then leave your bag at work and run home; next morning run to work, and pick up your stuff and return as normal. There's a variety or reasons this may not work but if you can do it, it gets an extra run in and means you have minimal gear to carry while running!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on August 12, 2022, 10:38:21 am
Probably obvious stuff that you're already doing, but make sure the weight's as close to your back as possible - a bag with a laptop pocket next to the back would be a must for me. I've got an Osprey one, although don't run with it unless I really have to! Then make sure you tighten all the compression straps to flatten the load front to back. It's amazing how big a difference this makes, even with something as small as a bumbag.

The rubbing/chafing issue depends on the cause.

Ultimately you will probably get chafing whatever you do, because it's next to impossible to stop all movement of the bag. However, limit the movement as much as possible with a waist strap and maybe a bit of vaseline on the affected area might hold things off for long enough to run home? T_B on here recommended some natural runners lubrication (Squirrel's Nut Butter) that I've yet to try but probably will - similar idea to the vaseline, i.e., takes longer for the rubbing to become an issue.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on August 12, 2022, 10:55:24 am
As above, smallest bag, compression straps, hip/chest strap, etc. Solid state hard drive next time you buy a laptop :)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on August 15, 2022, 11:44:38 pm
If you can, carry the weightiest things higher in the pack (shoulders) rather than lower back, or make some mods to the pack so this is possible. I have unintentionally run to work once with a big bulky laptop in my race vest (forgot to leave it at work) and was surprised it didn't feel too bad once i had it packed properly; high up, strapped in tight. Something to give it a bit of padding helps (I had it wrapped in a travel towel). 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Bradders on August 16, 2022, 06:19:59 am
Thanks for all the advice, plenty of new ideas in there which I'll try.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on August 26, 2022, 04:42:32 pm
One for the sliders?

Fucking incredible effort on Tryfan Franco, the skidding looked horrifying.

https://youtu.be/cLIW-oKvDgs

The camera was cool for stabilising when you fell over, although a bit weird at times. But not really any other way to film something like that.
Hope to see you back for the record - pretty iconic one to grab if you manage it!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on September 25, 2022, 01:05:17 pm
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/63025365.amp


He's gone and done it again. Not the sub 2 he wanted, but wow. What a beast.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on September 25, 2022, 04:56:08 pm
Watched most of it on some dodgy streaming service. I reckon he was definitely going for sub 2 given the split at half way. There were some pretty ‘slow’ km from around 27k so presumably he realised knocking out 2:50s was not sustainable and dialled it back. Still completely amazeballs.

Was also following YouTuber Nick Bester who was aiming for sub 2:20 and finished in 2:20:09. So close.

I’m running London a week today so psyche is high!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on September 25, 2022, 07:03:12 pm
Yeah he definitely wanted sub 2, but hey ho. 2.20.09, dang just outside that's a strong time.

Good luck in London, fingers crossed for decent weather & the time you are aiming for.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fultonius on September 25, 2022, 08:29:52 pm
That Franco vid was just bonkers!  Is it normal to spend so much time flipping, rolling, sliding and generally not being on your feet?

Maybe a pair of these next year....or is that cheating??  (https://cdn3.volusion.com/jncwp.jwbfy/v/vspfiles/photos/DS5155-12-2.jpg?v-cache=1432737012)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 07:36:38 am
I’m running London a week today so psyche is high!

Good luck Tom, it's an incredible experience. Expect to run over the distance btw, and factor it into your pace, it's impossible not to. And get a pacing wrist band if you can, GPS goes to wonk in a few places, so watch not 100% reliable.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 08:09:24 am
I'm made up, I managed a 1:38:03 Half Marathon PB at Crathes on Saturday. First Half since Feb 2020, and last PB was Great Aberdeen Half in 2018. Sometimes everything falls into place right..
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Duma on September 26, 2022, 08:37:06 am
Nice one Chris!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on September 26, 2022, 09:28:18 am
I'm made up, I managed a 1:38:03 Half Marathon PB at Crathes on Saturday. First Half since Feb 2020, and last PB was Great Aberdeen Half in 2018. Sometimes everything falls into place right..

Great stuff, that's a quick time! And a bumpy course too, there's got to be even more time to take off at a faster race  :ohmy:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 09:40:00 am
Yeah, I had it in mind the course was mostly tar, but a lot of tracks too. Weather was pretty ideal though, low teens, not a lot of wind and light drizzle about halfway. Not going to lie though, feels like carbon plate shoes (Vapourfly) do make a difference.

Need to decide if I want to commit to training for Dava Way Ultra (12 Nov) or do Fraserburgh Half (20 Nov) which is as flat as you like http://www.runningandtraveling.com/2020/11/fraserburgh-half-marathon.html

(And don't say do both!).

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on September 26, 2022, 11:06:54 am
Yeah, I had it in mind the course was mostly tar, but a lot of tracks too. Weather was pretty ideal though, low teens, not a lot of wind and light drizzle about halfway. Not going to lie though, feels like carbon plate shoes (Vapourfly) do make a difference.
I've not tried any "performance" type shoes, like the Vapourfly, I've been wondering whether to give it a try. The numbers of people I see with them is growing by the day, I can't decide if it's all just jumping on the bandwagon or if I'm missing out on huge potential gains!

Need to decide if I want to commit to training for Dava Way Ultra (12 Nov) or do Fraserburgh Half (20 Nov) which is as flat as you like http://www.runningandtraveling.com/2020/11/fraserburgh-half-marathon.html

What's your plan for next year? My process for deciding would be:

- if you're going to keep doing the ultras next year, and maybe this half marathon stuff is just a temporary phase, then do Fraserburgh. You've got good pace currently, and you've got time for a good 6/7 weeks training, taper, and then put in a solid race, with huge PB potential (flatter course, confidence, extra specific training, cooler temps). Then you can move towards distance after that, with a good record in the bank, and you'll have a nice foundation of pace to start the training in the new year.

- if you think you'll be doing fast halfs longer term, then I'd just do whichever race you're more interested in. There's no need to rush into trying to improve your half PB this year if you're going to keep pushing it next year so just go on the basis of enjoyment. Maybe the ultra will be a nice adventure (it does look very cool) and it won't do your half marathon times any harm.

(And don't say do both!).

If the dates were the other way round, doing both would be pretty plausible. A fast half is not ideal tapering for an ultra, but it wouldn't ruin your race (probably). But as it is, you'll probably not be in peak condition the week after the ultra, so your PB chances in the half will definitely take a hit. So yes, it looks like one or the other.

This is all how I'd approach it - your logic may vary!  :)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: sxrxg on September 26, 2022, 11:56:24 am
If you do go for some performance shoes with carbon and fancy foam it might be worth looking at Decathlon, they have released a high end shoe for £130 so about £100 less than most others.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/kiprun-kd900x-men-s-running-shoes-with-carbon-plate-white/_/R-p-326082?mc=8666803&c=WHITE
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on September 26, 2022, 12:22:33 pm
It’s possible to pick up a pair of Vaporflys for £130 ish if your club has a 10% discount with Sportsshoes.com. Or they have a full range of sizes for Endorphin Pro 2s at the moment for £130. I’ve had a pair of Carbon X 2s for over a year but they’re pretty heavy and don’t seem to make me go any faster. Fairly certain you recover more quickly though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on September 26, 2022, 12:27:24 pm
On the carbon shoes point, it's worth having a look at this paper :-

https://scholarworks.sfasu.edu/kinesiology/33/

TL;DR not all carbon shoes gave a statistically significant improvement in running economy. A lot of the stuff I've read/listened to suggests that there are a couple of confounding factors when looking at carbon shoes and it isn't just the carbon plate that improves running economy. The increased stack height has the effect of increasing stride length but would be unstable without the curved carbon plate. However, the plate can only be curved because of the increased stack height and, if it wasn't curved, wouldn't have the same "propulsion" effect. Add to this that increased stack height is only possible because the density of the foam has been reduced so you aren't carrying extra weight on the end of each leg. So the end result is you can't separate the effects of the stack and the plate very easily. The Vaporfly has both, but not everything does.

FWIW I've ended up with a pair of Saucony Endorphin Pros (small improvement over non-carbon in the paper), largely because I'm a huge fan of the Endorphin Speed so I went with what I know. You can definitely feel the additional stiffness off the foot, but they aren't noticeably stiffer to run in - although I only wear them for races when I'm pushing far harder so difficult to compare. I've been really resistant to going down the Vaporfly route as, if they are as good as people say, I'd get a PB and wouldn't know if it was me or the shoes - I only bought the Pros as they lighter than the Endorphin Speed.

Need to decide if I want to commit to training for Dava Way Ultra (12 Nov) or do Fraserburgh Half (20 Nov) which is as flat as you like http://www.runningandtraveling.com/2020/11/fraserburgh-half-marathon.html

(And don't say do both!).

I'd do the half - fitness, motivation and a good course don't always come round at once. Folks like us on the wrong side of 40 need to take the PB opportunities when they arise as they won't keep coming.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on September 26, 2022, 12:33:25 pm
On the carbon shoes point, it's worth having a look at this paper :-

https://scholarworks.sfasu.edu/kinesiology/33/

Sorry, just noticed this is paywalled. One of my friends sent me a copy I think - I'll try and find it!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 12:49:04 pm
My previous race shoes were Adidas Ultraboosts, which have practically zero stack by comparison, so guess anything is beneficial. I have been working on increasing cadence and not overstriding, as I think that was causing fatigue and injury, and i think doing this gives benefits from shoes like the Vaporfly, where i think you get better economy if you midstrike.

As T_B says, you can get the older Vaporfly for a reasonable price if you don't mind colour (mine are bright orange!) I think i go them direct from Nike. Fit is not ideal, I think they suit a slightly wider foot than mine.

I'll probably try do another half before the end of the year, there are a few choices around. Fitness and motivation, plus not being injured! (touch wood!).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on September 26, 2022, 01:43:02 pm
I'm a carbon convert, they definitely make a difference. Thing with them is they all have a different tune, foam, fit etc. Nike are a go to because they are the obvious choice.

I have some New Balance TC (v1), incredibly soft foam & relatively heavy for a race shoe, but I did my 5k pb in them. I also have the Endorphin Pro (v1) such a light & fast shoe. They have the Hoka speed roll type thing, but feel narrow on the sole. Personally I'm not heavy or fast enough for them on say a marathon, but up to a half they are ace.

Main take away with carbon is try a few. They are also hard on the Achilles & calves, so watch out.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: tk421a on September 26, 2022, 01:49:17 pm
Jack Kuenzle and Finlay Wild both went for cutting laces off their fell shoes and swapping to carbon plated shoes for the last stretch to Keswick on BGRs.

Ran 1:29 HM in Vaporflys that were £100 on sale from Nike. Felt faster than training shoes / I did a lot of training on park trails.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on September 26, 2022, 02:07:03 pm
I’m running London a week today so psyche is high!

Good luck Tom, it's an incredible experience. Expect to run over the distance btw, and factor it into your pace, it's impossible not to. And get a pacing wrist band if you can, GPS goes to wonk in a few places, so watch not 100% reliable.

Thanks for the tips. I thought I had the GPS issue sorted by hitting the lap button at each 10k marker, so I could track pace more accurately. But I haven’t got the right display options or something set up.

Regarding time, a devil keeps jumping from shoulder to shoulder. One tells me to ignore time as this is likely a once in a lifetime race, so don’t muck it up, the other is saying this is a one in a lifetime race and you’ve just trained in a focussed way for 16 weeks so try and get the best time possible.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 02:29:57 pm
You can grab timing bands for free when you collect your event pack, along with anything else you might possibly ever need for running, it's quire a spectacle. TBH I didn't stick around there for long, found it just raised my nerves higher than needed.

I know what you mean re: timing. I had 4 hours in my head, but didn't factor in 1) the amount you run over distance due to sheer numbers 2) that I overhydrated and needed to stop for a piss 3) stopping to give family who had come to support me a hug 4) my ITB starting to pack in in the last 5 km when I realised how close I was to my time. In the end, 4:00:12 is not bad, but those 12 seconds still bother me.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 04:56:37 pm
Main take away with carbon is try a few. They are also hard on the Achilles & calves, so watch out.

Expensive option! My calves are in bits today.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 26, 2022, 05:02:52 pm
What's your plan for next year? My process for deciding would be:

- if you're going to keep doing the ultras next year, and maybe this half marathon stuff is just a temporary phase, then do Fraserburgh. You've got good pace currently, and you've got time for a good 6/7 weeks training, taper, and then put in a solid race, with huge PB potential (flatter course, confidence, extra specific training, cooler temps). Then you can move towards distance after that, with a good record in the bank, and you'll have a nice foundation of pace to start the training in the new year.

I have no plan! I chop and change interests between activities based on moods. I think I've done about 10 half marathons, a couple of 15 milers, 2 Ring of Stealls, one marathon and 1 ultra.  Might do Illuminator again just for the experience.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on September 26, 2022, 05:26:18 pm
I have no plan! I chop and change interests between activities based on moods. I think I've done about 10 half marathons, a couple of 15 milers, 2 Ring of Stealls, one marathon and 1 ultra.  Might do Illuminator again just for the experience.
Then no worries! Whichever you decide will be fun, and you'll still be fit for whatever you take on next. Can just enjoy the running now 8)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 28, 2022, 10:49:50 am
https://www.facebook.com/Strava/photos/a.2367263883288021/6177818095565895/

Thought this was very interesting. Shows a lot about psychology.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lukeyboy on September 28, 2022, 05:14:27 pm
https://www.facebook.com/Strava/photos/a.2367263883288021/6177818095565895/

Thought this was very interesting. Shows a lot about psychology.

Interesting graph. Are you referring to the spikes where people are finishing just inside a benchmark time (e.g. 4h)? It appears that this is enough motivation for most people to push that bit harder.

Equally suggests most people aren't trying as hard as they could, otherwise it'd be a smooth bell curve!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 28, 2022, 09:47:32 pm
Are you referring to the spikes where people are finishing just inside a benchmark time (e.g. 4h)? It appears that this is enough motivation for most people to push that bit harder.

Yes. pacers who are running to half hour intervals at a lot of major races could have the effect too.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Nutty on September 29, 2022, 08:43:01 am
Are you referring to the spikes where people are finishing just inside a benchmark time (e.g. 4h)? It appears that this is enough motivation for most people to push that bit harder.

Yes. pacers who are running to half hour intervals at a lot of major races could have the effect too.
I think the data source probably has an impact, being marathons uploaded to Strava. The data source will presumably be biased towards the runners who'll be monitoring their pace rather than those who'll pace themselves by feel. Would be interesting to compare to data before the widespread adoption of GPS watches.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 29, 2022, 09:23:15 am
It would be, but be very hard to collate. The uptake of GPS watches is very high among runners, and I think those that don't use their phones. 90% of runners I know use Strava too.

Wonder if the same would exist in climbing with number of ascents of 7a/As and 8a/As? 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on September 29, 2022, 09:41:37 am
Wonder if the same would exist in climbing with number of ascents of 7a/As and 8a/As?
Pretty sure jwi has produced a graph to show that it definitely does. It wouldn’t surprise me if the spike was even more marked in climbing as you can achieve on any day at any time on any route. With a marathon (or any other distance), you have to perform on the day.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Nutty on September 29, 2022, 10:06:09 am
It would be, but be very hard to collate. The uptake of GPS watches is very high among runners, and I think those that don't use their phones. 90% of runners I know use Strava too.

Wonder if the same would exist in climbing with number of ascents of 7a/As and 8a/As?
Yeah, I was thinking that when I did my first marathon (2005), then GPS watches existed but weren't ubiquitous. I went into it not really knowing what time I was aiming for (partly because I never bothered to figure out how far I ran on training runs) and ran it by feel. Total contrast to my last half-marathon where I had a definite target time and knew my pace, distance etc. throughout and finished 15 seconds inside my target.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on September 29, 2022, 12:52:45 pm
I ran my previous fastest race 10k & half without GPS as I forgot to charge my watch.

If you are fairly experienced, feel fit on the day you don't necessarily need a watch to tell you you are running hard & on for a decent time.

Famously Steve Jones never raced with a watch & missed the marathon WR by a few seconds, saying I couldn't of gone any faster.

**Edit** I then got a bit more serious, bought flash shoes & smashed my pb's on my own.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on December 06, 2022, 01:45:14 pm
https://runningmagazine.ca/trail-running/legendary-climber-alex-honnold-is-also-a-ninja-ultrarunner/

I'm better than Honnold at something (although I would probably melt doing an Ultra there).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Eddies on December 09, 2022, 10:11:10 am
https://metro.co.uk/2022/11/15/man-completes-marathon-in-three-and-a-half-hours-while-chain-smoking-17760209/?ito=facebooksocialmetroukfacebook
Get on the tabs, lads  :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on December 13, 2022, 11:23:49 pm
Need to decide if I want to commit to training for Dava Way Ultra (12 Nov) or do Fraserburgh Half (20 Nov) which is as flat as you like http://www.runningandtraveling.com/2020/11/fraserburgh-half-marathon.html

(And don't say do both!).

Which did you do in the end, if either?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on December 14, 2022, 08:01:27 am
LOL, no, I decided i really couldn't be bothered with the block of training needed for the Ultra, and the half was on a weekend when the kids had 2 inset training days off, so went to Edinburgh (which was fortunate as the weather was appalling.

Did the Illuminator instead, a 15 mile night run around Glen Tanar estate. Except it had to have a detour due to an apparently aggressive capercaillie, so was closer to 16.5. In spite of it being pretty foul (drizzle most of the race) and stacking it quite badly on the final descent, I still managed a pb, so pretty happy.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on December 14, 2022, 08:31:54 am
Sounds like a good choice then.

I had to look up what a capercaillie is. One that's aggressive enough to cause a detour sounds very scary! I pity to person who happened upon it first.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on December 14, 2022, 08:46:06 am
I've never seen one, only heard it, apparently impressive birds, and not to be messed with, and especially territorial in mating season

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDEw3pJlzVA
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: RobK on December 14, 2022, 02:25:54 pm
Have had a face-off with one in a Speyside forest before, I beat a pretty hasty retreat. Not an experience I want to repeat in a hurry!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fultonius on March 21, 2023, 08:02:15 am
Kneepain...

My right kneecap has a bit of wear in the cartilage and as a result I've all but given up running (it was never a major thing for me) but I want to make sure I keep strong legs for bouldering (landings) and skiing.

The usual exercises are squats, lunges etc. but these both aggravate it. I'm going to book some physio when I finally get paid but in the meantime, does anyone have any experience of this and any thoughts on what exercises I could do to help this?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on March 21, 2023, 08:45:03 am
Is it classic runners knee / Patellofemoral pain?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Fultonius on March 21, 2023, 09:10:33 am
Is it classic runners knee / Patellofemoral pain?

It'll be a mix of that and the fact I had 3 knee ligaments replaced in 2009...  So my biomechanics will be a bit "off".

Edit:the surgeon said it was early stage cartilage degradation (some minor signs of the start of fissuring etc.) and reading online it does sound a lot like:  Chondromalacia_Patellae  which is the more degenerative version (rather than a tendinitis type thing).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on March 21, 2023, 10:02:44 am
Ooof, forgot about the ligaments, that can't help.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on May 11, 2023, 10:05:19 pm
I’ve got a recurring injury which i need to go back to my physio about. But its been bugging me lately due to one weird aspect.

I can happily go out for an hour or longer doing 2 mins run, 1 min walk. But if i try to do a solid run (i.e. no walking) my injury always flares up after 15 or 20 mins, without fail.

My injury is in the top of my calf(outside of leg)/back of knee. My physio said there was trapped fluid (found via ultrasound) and that my running technique was shit.

I did loads of physio (full year worth) got way stronger and my technique improved hugely, but the same thing kept happening if i tried to run without any walks.

I’ve fallen off the physio bandwagon this year, but I’m walk-running 3 times a week. Tried today to just run and the same thing happened again after 15 mins (at a pretty slow pace).

All i can think of is the lack of break might impact my technique a little, but it’s not like I’m pushing myself or anything.

Before i book back in i thought i would walk to see if anyone has heard of something similar happening as it’s got my stumped 🤔
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Mr_Cus on May 12, 2023, 06:41:10 am
I've not had that problem so can't be of much help but I was wondering if it could be shoe related?  I'm guessing you've tried a different pair for a bit?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on May 12, 2023, 08:20:29 am
I'm no expert but... In my mind having trapped fluid for that long surprises me.

Can you isolate the pain point, or is it a general area? IIRC there are 2 layers of muscles back there, the deeper the pain feels, the trickier it is to treat.

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on May 12, 2023, 08:34:45 am
Ive not tried different shoes in the last 7/8months so I’ll give some a go next run. It’s nearly dry enough for me to use my road shoes on my woods loops.

And the pain is very much on the surface. Its the calf muscle at the very top of my fibula.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on May 12, 2023, 08:55:32 am
My experience on various persistent problems for both me and my wife is that all physios are not the same. Is it worth trying a different one? The Wharfedale Clinic in Guiseley always had a good rep amongst runners - I think that’s fairly local to you?

Have you tried varying the run/walk splits? Can you do 4 run/1 walk for example and then slowly increase to work out where your limit is? Progressively loading might help with rehab.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on May 12, 2023, 09:46:01 am
I have something similar many years ago. When I took up running again after a long lay off. Walk and run was fine but like yourself after 20 minutes running pain in the top of my calf and needing to stop running. In those days it was advised to to stretch before running and the physio’s conclusion was this was giving a message to muscle that there was hard work coming and the muscle was shutting down.
So the advise was no stretching and a very gentle build up in the run. However in the end I just gave up on the running as it I was something I was doing when I didn’t have time to ride my bike.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on May 12, 2023, 11:27:49 am
I've had a few running injuries/ niggles over the years and personally have had more success with sports therapist or an Osteopath than physio- anyone in the profession please don't take offence.
I sourced them via running club's or running social media (FB groups).

I'd also consider going to a good running store to get an update gait analysis as it can change over the years. Thing's like heel striking aren't as bad as over striding.

Last one a 5 min warm up at home to wake up and mobilise the muscles, followed by a cool down with foam rolling/ Thera gun type machine will help.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on May 12, 2023, 11:40:54 am
Agree on the trainers, especially if they are due for replacement / done over the recommended 500 miles (I don't stick to this btw but can see why people do).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on May 12, 2023, 03:31:34 pm
Weird sounding injury. It’s not a bursa is it? I know people who’ve had a baker cyst but that’s more on the back of the knee.

Yeah I’d get a second opinion from someone who specialises in running injuries. Good luck!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on May 12, 2023, 08:25:55 pm
My experience on various persistent problems for both me and my wife is that all physios are not the same. Is it worth trying a different one? The Wharfedale Clinic in Guiseley always had a good rep amongst runners - I think that’s fairly local to you?

Have you tried varying the run/walk splits? Can you do 4 run/1 walk for example and then slowly increase to work out where your limit is? Progressively loading might help with rehab.

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of interesting thoughts.

I was actually climbing with a physio today and he said similar to Stabbsy. He said it could be a weird nervous system reaction where my body is shutting the movement down after a certain amount of trigger.

I don’t think the pain is actually an injury as such, more that it is immobilising my leg before an injury occurs. As once it’s settled down there don’t seem to be any lasting effects.

He suggested upping the running time but keeping the 1 min rest and seeing if i can work out a trigger, or at least get my body used to something a bit different.

I’m actually quite happy with the walk-run normally, but it would be nice to do the odd run with others but where I can just go for an hour without worrying.

Its also good to know about the Guisley physio, thanks. I think there’s also another in Skipton who used to Chair a fell running organisation who I’ve not seen before.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on May 12, 2023, 08:36:07 pm
My experience on various persistent problems for both me and my wife is that all physios are not the same. Is it worth trying a different one? The Wharfedale Clinic in Guiseley always had a good rep amongst runners - I think that’s fairly local to you?

Have you tried varying the run/walk splits? Can you do 4 run/1 walk for example and then slowly increase to work out where your limit is? Progressively loading might help with rehab.

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of interesting thoughts.

I was actually climbing with a physio today and he said similar to Stabbsy. He said it could be a weird nervous system reaction where my body is shutting the movement down after a certain amount of trigger.

I don’t think the pain is actually an injury as such, more that it is immobilising my leg before an injury occurs. As once it’s settled down there don’t seem to be any lasting effects.

This is what I was saying above. It’s the muscle saying it doesn’t want to work hard or get injured.
My physio thought at first I’d torn the muscle but given I was pain free with a couple of weeks he discounted this and came to immobilising theory. He also come across in a semi professional footballer who could train and warm up fine but once he was running continuously he would get the problem.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on May 13, 2023, 02:12:21 pm
My experience on various persistent problems for both me and my wife is that all physios are not the same. Is it worth trying a different one? The Wharfedale Clinic in Guiseley always had a good rep amongst runners - I think that’s fairly local to you?

Have you tried varying the run/walk splits? Can you do 4 run/1 walk for example and then slowly increase to work out where your limit is? Progressively loading might help with rehab.

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of interesting thoughts.

I was actually climbing with a physio today and he said similar to Stabbsy. He said it could be a weird nervous system reaction where my body is shutting the movement down after a certain amount of trigger.

I don’t think the pain is actually an injury as such, more that it is immobilising my leg before an injury occurs. As once it’s settled down there don’t seem to be any lasting effects.

This is what I was saying above. It’s the muscle saying it doesn’t want to work hard or get injured.

My physio thought at first I’d torn the muscle but given I was pain free with a couple of weeks he discounted this and came to immobilising theory. He also come across in a semi professional footballer who could train and warm up fine but once he was running continuously he would get the problem.

This definitely sounds like what’s happening with me. It’s really annoying but hopefully i can train my body to not do it…
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on May 13, 2023, 05:32:55 pm
I tested out some different shoes today and went 4 min run, 1 min walk with the aim of doing loops and just seeing what happened.

Right knee was largely fine (could feel it a tiny bit, but my other “good knee” did exactly the same thing after about 35 mins (so 28mins of running minus some stops to send the dog in the river).

Ended up stopping at 40 mins for 7.5km, got a sausage roll and wandered back home. Dropped a friend (whos a physio) a message and he said it definitely sounds like a weird nervous system response.

So I’ll keep playing with splits and keep it varied and see how i can make it work. I’d like to join the local running club so could do with getting to be able to do 5-8 miles without having to walk too much…
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on July 26, 2023, 11:45:04 am
I tested out some different shoes today and went 4 min run, 1 min walk with the aim of doing loops and just seeing what happened.

Right knee was largely fine (could feel it a tiny bit, but my other “good knee” did exactly the same thing after about 35 mins (so 28mins of running minus some stops to send the dog in the river).

Ended up stopping at 40 mins for 7.5km, got a sausage roll and wandered back home. Dropped a friend (whos a physio) a message and he said it definitely sounds like a weird nervous system response.

So I’ll keep playing with splits and keep it varied and see how i can make it work. I’d like to join the local running club so could do with getting to be able to do 5-8 miles without having to walk too much…

An update on this injury…

Things were going well, got back to doing 10-15km (6 run, 1 walk). Took a week off and seemed to go back to square one.

I decided to get an Ultrasound yesterday just in case it was some weird psychological thing.

They identified a tiny tear where the calf attaches to my Fibula. It was small enough that she didn’t think it could be the source of any real pain.

But then she noticed that I have what she described as “stonking vein and arteries” running directly over it.

She thinks that the tear is exposing some nerves and at a certain point in a run (15-20mins) i must be reaching a critical HR/Blood pressure which is putting pressure on the nerve. Hence why the injury is so acute and means i can’t carry on, but also why it disappears very soon after i stop/cool down.

Also why walk/run was so successful as my fitness meant my HR dropped significantly with 1 min of walking, and hence delayed getting to that critical point. The fitter i got the longer it would hold off.

I’ve been advised to have 4-6 weeks of proper rest (potentially including climbing) to let the tear fully heal and then build up slowly from there.

That can start after Font next week… time for some
Campusing!

Assuming its a correct diagnosis i find it fascinating!

Also have some scans on Friday for Varicose veins in the same leg (GP this time so dont have to shell out £180  :2thumbsup:). Not sure if it’s linked at all but good to know before then anyway.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on July 26, 2023, 01:24:18 pm
Interesting!

Sounds promising. Good luck with it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on September 29, 2023, 09:14:43 am


TL;DR not all carbon shoes gave a statistically significant improvement in running economy. A lot of the stuff I've read/listened to suggests that there are a couple of confounding factors when looking at carbon shoes and it isn't just the carbon plate that improves running economy. The increased stack height has the effect of increasing stride length but would be unstable without the curved carbon plate. However, the plate can only be curved because of the increased stack height and, if it wasn't curved, wouldn't have the same "propulsion" effect. Add to this that increased stack height is only possible because the density of the foam has been reduced so you aren't carrying extra weight on the end of each leg. So the end result is you can't separate the effects of the stack and the plate very easily. The Vaporfly has both, but not everything does.

Stabbsy's post in another thread reminded me of the great Science of Sport podcast about Carbon plated shoes.

https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/theshoethatmayhavechangedrunningforever
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on October 22, 2023, 10:04:39 pm
I’m building my running back up after getting some insoles and new shoes which, hopefully, are helping my calf injury…

I’ve done up to 25 mins running, sometimes in one go, others with a 2-4 minute walk around halfway through.

I’ve been going at about 5min/km pace with HR staying around zone 3 (or very bottom of zone 4). Today i was a bit faster - 4:44/km but felt good. The last km was a bit harder to keep my cadence up as i was a bit tired, but in this km my HR jumped from 155bpm to 165, and then up to 204bpm and stayed there (new max HR according to my watch).

My rate was definitely elevated but it seems so high given the pace still felt fine. I’m not sure if my watch was playing up or if there is some reason for it jumping so high.

It’s as far as I've ran for a while, but i don’t think I’m that unfit! Is there anything which could cause such a spike if it wasn’t my Garmin give erroneous readings?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 22, 2023, 10:21:15 pm
Garmin playing up. Get an external HR monitor if you want an accurate reading (ones that fit over your upper arm seem all the rage). Or ditch the tech and run on feel.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: turnipturned on October 23, 2023, 01:19:17 am
Sounds like a garmin error- 204 for any length of time is pretty wild (had similar with my watch)

External HR are good. Get a chest strap (however remember to damp the sensors otherwise you will get similarly strange readings).

Agree with Tom try and go by feel, I use a HR monitor every now and then to gauge my heart for Z2 but don’t wear it on a regular basis. (Too much data drives you crazy)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on October 23, 2023, 09:20:44 am
Cheers! I assumed it must have been the watch, but it’s been so long since I’ve got to a high HR I can’t remember what it would be like!

I’m not really using the data at all, mainly using the metronome on the watch and using it for timings (building back up slowly). Once I’m more confident in my calf I’ll start to run a bit less constrained.

Good news is that some new shoes and some supportive insoles seem to be doing the trick, touch wood! I’ve ran (without any walk) for longer than 15 mins for the first time in about 5 years anyway! It’s nice to be moving again!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Paul B on October 23, 2023, 12:47:49 pm
External HR are good. Get a chest strap (however remember to damp the sensors otherwise you will get similarly strange readings).

...and remember to wash them / clean them or else they'll also do crazy things. It's worth noting that Whoop! bands still work as external HR monitors without paying the frankly ridiculous monthly fee.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 23, 2023, 03:42:29 pm
Good news is that some new shoes and some supportive insoles seem to be doing the trick, touch wood! I’ve ran (without any walk) for longer than 15 mins for the first time in about 5 years anyway! It’s nice to be moving again!

That’s brilliant. I’ve been really lucky with injuries but went over on my (already bad) ankle in June and it’s been very unstable/weak since. Seeing a podiatrist next week (Colin Papworth who is well known in Sheffield). I run in 5 different shoes so I’m hoping he doesn’t tell me I have to chuck them all away and buy some stability shoes!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on October 23, 2023, 08:22:28 pm
Good news is that some new shoes and some supportive insoles seem to be doing the trick, touch wood! I’ve ran (without any walk) for longer than 15 mins for the first time in about 5 years anyway! It’s nice to be moving again!

That’s brilliant. I’ve been really lucky with injuries but went over on my (already bad) ankle in June and it’s been very unstable/weak since. Seeing a podiatrist next week (Colin Papworth who is well known in Sheffield). I run in 5 different shoes so I’m hoping he doesn’t tell me I have to chuck them all away and buy some stability shoes!

I never got an actual diagnosis, but this was a last attempt to try and correct the way i was landing. Stiff shoes and some insoles to correct overpronation - the way i was landing was causing a fast change of angle in my ankle due to not landing straight.

I changed shoes and how i ran at the same times of the insoles, so not sure if any aspect if helping more than others, but for now I’ll take the benefits that seem to be happening.

I was surprised how many of the shoes which I’d been “fit” for looked awful when i was videoed on a treadmill.

I hope your appointment goes well!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on October 23, 2023, 08:56:01 pm
Glad you are getting there, running injuries suck.... RE heartrate on the watch, you do wear it past the wrist bone (heading towards the elbow) You probably do, but thought I'd mention it.

I also have 4 road & 3 trail pairs of shoes, but they cross over (2 are due to be retired). It helps with injury prevention as it's a different foot strike with each pair. Essentially the only 'bad strike' is over striding.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on October 23, 2023, 09:15:18 pm
The only pair of shoes I’ve not really got on with was when I was persuaded I needed stability shoes!

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on October 23, 2023, 09:59:16 pm
The only pair of shoes I’ve not really got on with was when I was persuaded I needed stability shoes!

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?

I’m always surprised at how slow friends who do long races do in their regular runs. They said that sticking in zone 2 does wonders for their endurance and means they can do more runs as it takes less out of them.

Though I’ve no clue about any of that kind of thing…
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: turnipturned on October 23, 2023, 11:37:55 pm
I did the BGR this year and my three rules of thumb seemed to work well.

1. 80:20  i.e. 80% of my weekly run was Z2 with 20% speed/ intervals.

2. Don’t increase mileage for the 15% per week

3. Easy runs on tired legs

Took me a while to get used to running slowly (Z2) , but once I did, I really started to enjoyed it, you can think, connect and take in the environment much betters.

(*ps I know very little about training)



The only pair of shoes I’ve not really got on with was when I was persuaded I needed stability shoes!

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on October 24, 2023, 12:09:04 am
I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?

I also know someone who is regularly top 5 locally, who also trains z2 mostly. He was explaining it (something he read in a book) as keeping your HR in z2 burns fat supplies, so is sustainable for longer races. If your HR is in z3+, then you're using carbs, which normally causes a bit of a crash after 90-120 mins. [I don't perfectly recall what he said, so this might be slightly or totally false, pinch of salt, etc.] So fine if you're racing that time or less, but anyone looking at longer races probably wants to work on lowering heart rate during training runs. Apparently aggressively training this was very tedious and involved lots of walking, but something's working, he's having a great year results-wise.

I've also heard Emile Caress talk about this on a podcast, how he and many other elites do most of their training at very easy pace, and then just mix in some high intensity sessions - much like Dan's 80/20 idea above. I believe this strategy also has something to do with keeping your legs relatively fresh so the high intensity sessions are also high quality, whereas if you are constantly thrashing yourself, you won't be able to do a really good speed/hill session because your body is just knackered before you begin.
My one reservation with this is that it would appear to work for professional athletes, since they have the time to do 15+ slow miles every day, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'd be the right strategy for someone more time-poor, who maybe only gets to run 3 times a week. Maybe that person should be running harder in the sessions they can actually manage to fit in? This is just conjecture really though, I wouldn't be surprised if easy running could be a fundamental part of anyone's training plan.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on October 24, 2023, 08:22:08 am
I did the BGR this year and my three rules of thumb seemed to work well.

1. 80:20  i.e. 80% of my weekly run was Z2 with 20% speed/ intervals.

2. Don’t increase mileage for the 15% per week

3. Easy runs on tired legs

Took me a while to get used to running slowly (Z2) , but once I did, I really started to enjoyed it, you can think, connect and take in the environment much betters.

(*ps I know very little about training)
There’s probably a longer post about this, but basically what Dan said.

There’s been numerous Science of Sport podcasts on it. I think this one was maybe the most accessible.

https://shows.acast.com/realscienceofsport/episodes/how-the-pros-train-and-what-we-can-learn-from-it
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on October 24, 2023, 08:27:33 am
Lot's of runner's local to me work with a coach that does everything via heart rate, all of them have had good results knocking out regular PB's. This includes  seasoned & fast runner's, not just newish people.

Again it focuses on low intensity, with say 2 quality session a week. I've trained a similar, but less scientific way & had good results. As mentioned it helps with fat adaption, you are also able to train more consistently which is the name of the game.

Few years ago I went to a talk with said coach & London marathon winner Mike Gratton. He said best improvements were running every day, the next step being twice a day. I guess this approach is for the dedication amateur, but standard for the elite. From memory Steve Jones used to just run hard all the time, the Ingebrigtsens mainly run at tempo.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on October 24, 2023, 09:44:29 am

My one reservation with this is that it would appear to work for professional athletes, since they have the time to do 15+ slow miles every day, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'd be the right strategy for someone more time-poor, who maybe only gets to run 3 times a week.

Mm, I get the theory but that's exactly my fear. I don't run anywhere near daily and less now I'm prioritising climbing more. Given I don't need much excuse to be lazy, I'm worried I might forget to try hard. Still if I can get a decent xc season that's guaranteed effort.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on October 24, 2023, 09:53:45 am
N+1 etc., but I went from 5 runs a week with 2 sessions (1 speed, 1 threshold) and a weekend long run that was harder than easy to 5 runs a week all easy except one session and a few strides during one of the easies and improved dramatically at longer distances. My 5k time hardly changed.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 24, 2023, 10:49:39 am
My tuppence worth based on personal observations and spending a lot of time following the training of sub-elites. Caveat: I am shit at running and have never run more than 60km pw.

There’s loads of evidence for 80/20 but my view is it does not apply to the casual climber-runner who is running sub 5 hours per week. Even less so for anyone who cannot run faster than a 45-minute 10K.

1. The whole idea is to tolerate more volume and that will get you fitter. I reckon to run 80% Z2 you need to be running at least 60km/5 times per week and even then you only have 12km of faster work or 1 run realistically. If you’re running 30-40km pw and most of that is easy you will not get faster.

2. ‘Long Slow Run’ is a myth unless you’re quite fit. Even at a very slow pace your heart rate climbs as you become more fatigued so what might start off as Z2 can end at top end of Z3.

3. In my opinion you need to be at least a sub 22 minute 5k runner to run 80% at Z2. Otherwise your true easy effort is so slow that it’s only possible on flat roads. So any slower fell/trail runner is going to be running at a higher effort than ‘true’ Z2.

4. You need to train race effort. Plodding around then expecting to run 1 - 2 minutes faster per km in a race is unrealistic.*

5. Some runners perform very well off natural talent and low mileage.

6. Consistency is a better thing to focus on than 80/20 for average/slow runners.

*If you have good natural form and are experienced i.e. know what effort whatever the distance is you’re racing then this may be less true.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: duncan on October 24, 2023, 01:30:08 pm
My tuppence worth based on personal observations and spending a lot of time following the training of sub-elites. Caveat: I am shit at running and have never run more than 60km pw.

There’s loads of evidence for 80/20 but my view is it does not apply to the casual climber-runner who is running sub 5 hours per week. Even less so for anyone who cannot run faster than a 45-minute 10K.

1. The whole idea is to tolerate more volume and that will get you fitter. I reckon to run 80% Z2 you need to be running at least 60km/5 times per week and even then you only have 12km of faster work or 1 run realistically. If you’re running 30-40km pw and most of that is easy you will not get faster.

2. ‘Long Slow Run’ is a myth unless you’re quite fit. Even at a very slow pace your heart rate climbs as you become more fatigued so what might start off as Z2 can end at top end of Z3.

3. In my opinion you need to be at least a sub 22 minute 5k runner to run 80% at Z2. Otherwise your true easy effort is so slow that it’s only possible on flat roads. So any slower fell/trail runner is going to be running at a higher effort than ‘true’ Z2.

4. You need to train race effort. Plodding around then expecting to run 1 - 2 minutes faster per km in a race is unrealistic.*

5. Some runners perform very well off natural talent and low mileage.

6. Consistency is a better thing to focus on than 80/20 for average/slow runners.

*If you have good natural form and are experienced i.e. know what effort whatever the distance is you’re racing then this may be less true.


T_B has run the London marathon so he's not completely shit at running! I am completely shit at running but I built up to 5km consistently and 8-9km on a good day a few years ago before a knackered ankle and hip and the after-effects of covid put paid to it.

From my n=1 I agree with the main point about z2 not applying to shufflers like me. My z2 is a brisk walk which I've done plenty of for 50+ years; my running would never have progressed if 80% of my training was walking. The other points seem pretty sound too, especially the one about consistency (so, by implication, not getting injured).

I wonder if this also applies to ARC/aerobic capacity training for punter-climbers?

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on October 24, 2023, 03:02:51 pm
The other points seem pretty sound too, especially the one about consistency (so, by implication, not getting injured).
I'd have said the 80/20 split might lend itself to less injury, no? Given a certain amount of time running per week, running more of it at a slower pace sound less injury provoking than running at consistently high effort.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Paul B on October 24, 2023, 03:30:47 pm
I wonder if this also applies to ARC/aerobic capacity training for punter-climbers?


I'd be massively surprised if it doesn't. Imagine spending 80% of a limited time commitment per week simply traversing around in the Foundry corridor and expecting endurance improvements  :worms:

I've been lucky enough this summer to take a break between work and the improvement I've seen in my own (cycling) has been ridiculously marked (and a lot easier to 'measure'). It probably fell well into 80/20 in that 80% of the time I was mooching around by msyelf/with Nat and 20% of the time I was trying desperately to not get dropped by a much stronger UKBer. My takeaway from this going forward is to adopt the Mark Katz mantra of "do something".
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on October 25, 2023, 09:21:46 am
From my n=1 I agree with the main point about z2 not applying to shufflers like me. My z2 is a brisk walk which I've done plenty of for 50+ years; my running would never have progressed if 80% of my training was walking. The other points seem pretty sound too, especially the one about consistency (so, by implication, not getting injured).
I struggle with the logic behind this, although that’s not to say it isn’t right. Given it’s a relative to fitness level, why would it be different for different fitness levels? One thought might be that Z2 is not that well defined. In my case, I mean 80-90% of lactate threshold. If I defined it in terms of max heart rate as a lot of websites do, it would be lower in my case. Maybe that’s part of the difference?

Tom - on your long slow run point, yes agree that you get HR drift with fatigue. However, I set the pace at the start and maintain that pace/effort and just expect the HR to drift. I don’t see this as a problem.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: jwi on October 25, 2023, 11:41:23 am

I struggle with the logic behind this, although that’s not to say it isn’t right. Given it’s a relative to fitness level, why would it be different for different fitness levels? [...]

One of the most established and important principles of training is that the effect is vastly different from one person to the next.

All training should be based on the individual's preparedness, age, gender, etc... It is well established that the result of an intervention, even in fairly homogeneous groups, is vastly different.

(As an aside, a long time ago I used to share an office with a world-class bi-athlete, and asked him how to train for endurance. According to him, if you had only one session a week that session should be interval training.)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on October 25, 2023, 12:01:43 pm
Neil -

My threshold HR is about 170bpm and I tend to think of my Z2 topping out at 153bpm.

The point I was trying to make is I can run flat roads ‘easy’ or around 148-150bpm at a pace you might describe as jogging. If I run a flattish loop off road as gently as possible, but without walking, I struggle to keep my HR below 153bpm.

I see better runners doing ‘easy’ runs on the fells/trails but back to Steve’s original post I can’t see how the slower runner can realistically run 80% at Z2 without being very disciplined about flat road running.

Regarding the long runs, if you end up working quite hard later in the run as you fatigue it’s not ‘Long Slow Easy’ is it?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: duncan on October 25, 2023, 06:19:43 pm
I'd have said the 80/20 split might lend itself to less injury, no? Given a certain amount of time running per week, running more of it at a slower pace sound less injury provoking than running at consistently high effort.
Don't listen to me about running, I have minimal command of the physiology and less experience. Right on cue though here is an article from the BJSM on long slow training which supports your idea:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2023/10/23/the-error-of-easy-running-in-terms-of-stroke-volume-response-to-exercise-or-why-peter-coe-was-right/
TL/DR: running slower enables you to do more training distance.

It’s definitely true for my climbing but I am a better climber than runner. I can manage something like zone 2 climbing for ages and ages (I know they are not exactly equivalent, but let’s say TRing a 5+ whilst chatting away happily and not getting pumped). I do quite a bit of this it's been good in that I don't get injured and it helps trad. onsighting and multipitch. Sport redpointing not so much...
 
Unfortunately barely jogging (zone 1 speed) elicits a zone 3 heart response, >70% MHR, and I get short of breath. If I went any slower to lower my HR I’d be walking. I can't do long slow, only short slow.

5. Some runners perform very well off natural talent and low mileage.

Was talking with a good friend today who said she’d just “accidentally” run a half marathon this morning. She swims and goes to the gym regularly which I know includes a few minutes of treadmill or static bike but never runs on the road. She was on holiday, couldn't get to a gym, so went for a jog. She’s in her 50s...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on October 27, 2023, 09:28:36 am
T_B has run the London marathon so he's not completely shit at running!

Not saying T_B is shit, but this isn't an indicator!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on October 27, 2023, 09:30:51 am
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/27/harvey-lewis-ultramarathon-backyard-championship

This is just batshit bonkers.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: James Malloch on November 01, 2023, 09:48:46 am
I managed to injure my adductor the other day doing some faster intervals. I wanted to join the local club but can’t manage their distances yet, so joined the interval session instead.

As is standard for me, whilst reining it in I still overdid it on the sprints. The next few runs I only got 50m from the house before having to stop.

After a few days it settles down, so I’ve started doing some adductor exercises. Main one is a band around the table leg and pulling it with the injured leg across my body and past my other foot.

Seems to be going okay at the moment and I’ve increased the band resistance today. Does this seem like a sensible approach? Plans to have a very light jog in a few days if things are still improving and see how it feels.

I’d normally book in with a physio but things are busy at the moment so just going by feel for now…
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on November 01, 2023, 12:01:31 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/27/harvey-lewis-ultramarathon-backyard-championship

This is just batshit bonkers.

I mean, Laz invented the Barkley Marathons (which the article manages to avoid mentioning directly), so I don't know what else you'd expect from him.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2023, 12:42:52 pm
Different game to the BMs though. This is more akin to the old dance marathons or the original Running Man story. 5 days of 15 minute catnaps at most.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Durbs on November 01, 2023, 03:57:33 pm
I've just started on a Garmin training plan, partly to better my 5k PB (Currently 25:19, target of 22:30), partly to actually have a plan to get me out the door, and partly cos I'm getting tubby.

The overall plan is lots of easy runs, some long, some shorter, mixed in with some strides, and then some "pace runs", i.e. 400m at target pace, then 5 minutes at  a chilled pace.

Only in week 1, and ended up getting Norovirus, but Garmin at least seem to subscribe to the "lots of slow pace" as a key to success.

Shall report back on "race day" some time in January.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2023, 04:21:46 pm
If you want to burn calories and lose weight, long and easy worked for me. When I did marathon training I was nearly a stone lighter than I usually am, come race day. And if you can, time runs so you can eat a meal when you get home, as I am usually really hungry after a few hours out on the road, and will eat anything I get my hands on as i walk in the door.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on November 01, 2023, 05:10:22 pm
Back on the Zone 2 malarkey, I guess it's only a silver bullet if you're running more frequently. A harder 20% of not very much mileage is even less. So I'd better keep trying occasionally, and as Tom points out it's easy to get your HR up on the trail - pride prevents me walking easier hills - I'll do maybe 500' of ascent on a regular short run.

@durbs - the occasional parkrun is good for a fitness sanity check
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 02, 2023, 06:40:08 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2TxXYt1c8Y

Nice little video covering the Back Yard Ultra. They do one near ish me in Suffolk tempted to try it.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on November 04, 2023, 07:30:25 am
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/27/harvey-lewis-ultramarathon-backyard-championship

This is just batshit bonkers.

I mean, Laz invented the Barkley Marathons (which the article manages to avoid mentioning directly), so I don't know what else you'd expect from him.

Btw, on that topic, did everyone see that, after her Fun Run last year, this year Jasmin Paris became the second woman ever to start the fourth loop?

She timed out on it (at 9 out of 13 pages), but came in looking ridiculously strong.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 05, 2023, 09:59:04 pm
Yep. I did, she's a complete running beast.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Durbs on November 06, 2023, 08:38:50 am
If you want to burn calories and lose weight, long and easy worked for me.

Alas I'm time poor, what with 3 kids and a 9-5, so 90% of running is in my lunch-hour, which needs to include post-run shower, hence focussing on speed rather than distance.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 06, 2023, 08:47:52 am
Fair enough. I was generally the same, had to resort to night time runs once kids were in bed, and foregoing a lie in and getting up early and running into town on a Saturday while my wife drove them in for various activities (or running back). It's not easy with continual family time constraints (and doubly bad if you are both training for the same marathon).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: El Mocho on November 12, 2023, 01:35:32 pm
Does anyone have experience on dealing with ITBS? Think this is what I may have. It's probably largely triggered by being middle aged and not built for running rather than doing massive miles.

Been running last 10 months or so, mostly off road, decent shoes (I think, seem a good fit/I like) mostly now in the 5-10 mile distances and normally once a week twice max. Initially struggled a bit with legs aching but as I have done more it had got a lot better (mostly shin splint type stuff) and no/very little pain last 4 months. Run a few weeks back and went a bit faster than would normally as I was feeling great. Had general stiff/achy legs next day. Next run and outside of knee got really sore half way through, limped/jogged home. Sore walking dogs for the next week or so. No runs for 2+ weeks. Next run pretty slow and again part way through same pain so walked home (pretty painful!). 3 or 4 days of pain when walking dogs and now (week later) pretty much fine walking. It does feel better with a knee brace on.

Walk couple of hours every day with dogs, have reasonably strong legs (can do 1 leg squat thing fine) and have 'ok' form when running - not had gait analysis but nothing glaringly obviously terrible, and had foot/walk analysis and that's pretty good, do roll from outside of heel - wear out outer edge of heel on shoes first.

Stretches? Strength exercises? Googled a few stretches so will try them. Or a good physio in Shef!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on November 12, 2023, 03:18:57 pm
Sent you some msgs via WhatsApp Ben.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 14, 2023, 08:24:06 pm
Finally did a road race Sunday the Stebbing 10 in Essex. It's a lovely one that starts just after the Remembrance Service, 10 miles of rolling countryside roads. This was my first road race since 2019 & fourth since covid/injury. Really enjoyed it, my mate paced us for 1.20, but we cracked on & finished in 1.17.23, pleased with it after such a long lay off.

Keen to train again for something else.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 15, 2023, 08:47:48 am
Well done, not much further to a half, can easily do it! Nice flat one and you'll be good.

https://www.letsdothis.com/gb/e/barry-buddon-fast-half-marathon-193711 is apparently as flat as they come, doing it next year as it's the day of my 55th. Not exactly on your doorstep though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 15, 2023, 08:55:56 pm
Well done, not much further to a half, can easily do it! Nice flat one and you'll be good.

https://www.letsdothis.com/gb/e/barry-buddon-fast-half-marathon-193711 is apparently as flat as they come, doing it next year as it's the day of my 55th. Not exactly on your doorstep though.

My wife loves Scotland, so could possibly do a trip up & new race somewhere cool is always fun too.

I like a 10 miler, it's a great distance. Need to pull my finger out and get back down to some decent times.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 15, 2023, 09:26:47 pm
10 milers don't seem that popular (round here?), it's either 10k or half.

If you want to come up to Scotland, there are some beautiful races you can do; eg Clova Half (which I did last Sat) and Loch Rannoch events are amazing scenery.   
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 15, 2023, 09:34:07 pm
There's 3 regular ones down here, I've also done some 15 milers - another rare, but fun distance.

I personally find 10k the hardest to perform in (bar a marathon if you want to have a go at it).

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check em out.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 15, 2023, 10:13:29 pm
10 k is a brutal distance, always gets me. I found marathon OK on the day, just the massive block of training involved that dampens my enthusiasm for another.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on November 16, 2023, 08:08:08 am
10 mile/half marathon definitely my preferred distance - there’s quite a few dotted round North/West Yorkshire from flat (Tadcaster, Thirsk) though undulating (Snake Lane) to proper hilly (Otley, Guy Fawkes). I was originally planning on doing Derby 10 mile this year (another flat one), as my actual 10 mile race PB (from Otley) is about 5 mins slower than my best 10 mile split in a flat HM.

I’ll keep that April HM in mind Chris - was hoping to get back fit for Wilmslow HM in March, but that would give me an extra 6 weeks if post-viral symptoms don’t settle down in time.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 16, 2023, 08:30:24 am
Hope you get over it! Just noticed that Run Balmoral is the same weekend as my birthday too. Darn, The 15 miler there is the most scenic I've ever done, Spring in Deeside at it's best. Definitely not flat though.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dingdong on November 16, 2023, 10:20:26 am
Well done, not much further to a half, can easily do it! Nice flat one and you'll be good.

https://www.letsdothis.com/gb/e/barry-buddon-fast-half-marathon-193711 is apparently as flat as they come, doing it next year as it's the day of my 55th. Not exactly on your doorstep though.

My wife loves Scotland, so could possibly do a trip up & new race somewhere cool is always fun too.

I like a 10 miler, it's a great distance. Need to pull my finger out and get back down to some decent times.

Word of warning Barry Buddon may be flat but you’ll be running into headwinds pretty much the whole race  :lol:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 16, 2023, 10:33:30 am
It's a circular route?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dingdong on November 16, 2023, 01:59:27 pm
It's a circular route?

Its not a circular route, just a single loop but the track itself weaves around corners and even if it were circular you can still run into/away from headwinds especially on something as long as a half, and doubly especailly in Scotland  :lol:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 16, 2023, 02:49:01 pm
OK, sorry, there and back. So wind can be a help but also hindrance. You don't need to tell me about wind in Scotland, I've done more than enough halves and other runs here to know you can feel it in any direction at any time.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Dingdong on November 16, 2023, 03:23:09 pm
It was more of a warning to those who may conflate FLAT and FAST  :lol:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on November 16, 2023, 05:15:53 pm
If we're doing recommends, our club half in Jan is decent (but not flat): https://www.helsbyrunningclub.org.uk/four-villages-half/

On topic: course runs underneath an excellent bouldering venue and near 2 others (Manley, Helsby, Harmers).
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on November 19, 2023, 10:55:38 pm
Maybe this'll be of interest to one or two of you? Seems like the best thread to stick it in.

In September, my dad ran the Across Wales Walk, and I went along to support, and also film his day. I've put together a film which I've just uploaded to YouTube. This is the first thing I've ever filmed or edited so it's nothing incredible, but if anyone likes peaceful running films and has some time to kill, it's probably worth a shot.

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/xQB6CABj2e8
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 28, 2023, 09:43:26 am
Has anyone unintentionally put themselves into ketosis before? I think I have been for 2 weeks now since I ran the Glen Clova half. I felt OK during the run and had my usual eating regime before and during the race, only difference is I mixed my recovery shake, started chatting to a mate, went for coffee with him, then went bouldering up the Glen, and completely forgot about it, so didn't really eat much of significance until I got home at 6.

Since then I have lost weight, had a raging thirst, been sleeping badly, lost appetite and had no desire to eat anything sweet, plus had strange taste in mouth. I've been shitting myself that something serious is up (given my brother's cancer of the digestive system), but was chatting to a mate when running yesterday, and i think he cracked it?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on November 28, 2023, 05:51:55 pm
I was under the impression that ketosis required significantly more effort/time to get into, like it wasn't something you could accidentally get into. Is that not true?  :shrug:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on November 28, 2023, 09:44:19 pm
I was under the same impression as Ed, but also prepared to get educated... Did you absolutely hammer it & drain yourself.

Two weeks on & still having symptoms I'd definitely get a DR appointment just to be safe.

Take it easy man.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: webbo on November 28, 2023, 10:29:58 pm
As above I would be going to docs. A run then going bouldering that’s really not a lot more than a big day out and running out of food and not getting much afterwards. However If you started eating reasonably normally even with a reduced appetite over the next days, Given your current symptoms GP appt.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 29, 2023, 09:23:29 am
Went to see one on Monday, got full bloods etc. Scheduled for another appt a week on Monday.

I went pretty hard in the first half of the HM, but according to HRM nothing like i have done in the past. It started at Midday, which is a tricky time, quite a while after cramming in as much porridge as I can, like I usually do. I thought it was unlikely too, but of the signs here https://www.medicinenet.com/top_11_signs_you_are_in_ketosis/article.htm I have had them all except 6 (and possibly 2, the response i got at home was "no worse than usual". I've stopped caffeine too, as my pulse was going through the roof.

Might be a bit late, but I have ordered some strips, see what result they show.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on November 29, 2023, 09:32:42 am
FWIW the majority of those symptoms along with raised HR are what I’ve had since June and have been putting down to some sort of post-viral/long Covid type thing. Sleep has finally started to improve and HR getting slightly less “over-responsive” in the last month.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on November 29, 2023, 09:42:34 am
Went to see one on Monday, got full bloods etc. Scheduled for another appt a week on Monday.

I went pretty hard in the first half of the HM, but according to HRM nothing like i have done in the past. It started at Midday, which is a tricky time, quite a while after cramming in as much porridge as I can, like I usually do. I thought it was unlikely too, but of the signs here https://www.medicinenet.com/top_11_signs_you_are_in_ketosis/article.htm I have had them all except 6 (and possibly 2, the response i got at home was "no worse than usual". I've stopped caffeine too, as my pulse was going through the roof.

Might be a bit late, but I have ordered some strips, see what result they show.

As I understand it, if you went back to eating normally (assuming your "normal" isn't super-low-carb) after that day, you shouldn't still be in ketosis 2 weeks later, even if you dipped into it then.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 29, 2023, 09:59:03 am
I've been eating as much as my appetite allows me without feeling sick, so less than normal, but not like I am starving myself. I would have though the same about going out of it, but still getting the symptoms, especially the coppery taste in mouth. I lost about 9lbs in about 2 weeks, but not underweight yet according to BMI charts.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lukeyboy on November 29, 2023, 04:42:35 pm
I don't have anything helpful to contribute, other than to say - that sounds shit Chris, hope it's nothing serious and you're back to full health soon  :(
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: seankenny on November 29, 2023, 08:52:12 pm
FWIW the majority of those symptoms along with raised HR are what I’ve had since June and have been putting down to some sort of post-viral/long Covid type thing. Sleep has finally started to improve and HR getting slightly less “over-responsive” in the last month.

I also thought the symptoms sounded a little long covid-esque - I’ve had similar.

Stabbsy - are you au fait with things like non sleep deep rest/yoga nidra and various breathing exercises that are recommended for post viral HR issues? Happy to suggest some things if you like, they’ve been very helpful for my long covid.

Chris - hope you get some swift and successful resolution of your symptoms, good luck!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: tk421a on November 29, 2023, 09:12:18 pm
Doesnt sound like ketosis to me. From my experience / memory, ketosis is hard / slow to get into and easy / fast to get out of. If you wanted to rule it out have a few gels / sugary sport / haribo if you can stomach it. One gel is pretty much the carbs a normal keto diet would be doing.

Hope you feel better soon.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 29, 2023, 11:12:06 pm
Thanks for all the good wishes guys. I have been trying to eat as much carbs as I can stomach, lots of small meals. A lot of the unpleasant signs have settled down and I don't feel weak or anything, and managing some reasonably fast paced short runs. Still off caffeine.

I had COVID back in July, suffered worse for a few days, but recovered quicker than last time (April last year). I did have a bit of a mild sniffly cold for about 10 days the week after we got back from Mallorca (COVID test negative, but given the age of the kits it could be a false negative) and took it very easy for 2 weeks  / 10 days, then did a few runs before the HM, and felt fine. I also felt fine during the race, just dropped off pace in the last 3rd.

Hopefully get bloods back soon.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Stabbsy on November 30, 2023, 09:48:58 am
Stabbsy - are you au fait with things like non sleep deep rest/yoga nidra and various breathing exercises that are recommended for post viral HR issues? Happy to suggest some things if you like, they’ve been very helpful for my long covid.

Thanks Sean, I'd be interested to hear what you've tried. I tried a few breathing exercises over the period that is was at its worst, but I'm not sure how successful they were. It was usually in the middle of the night when I'd wake up with my HR pounding, so it's maybe harder to judge if it's working. By the sounds of it, my symptoms were never as severe as yours - if I wasn't a runner (and therefore hyper-aware of my HR when exercising), I might have put it down to being very rundown/stressed.

Possibly/probably just coincidence, but my biggest improvement started not long after I started taking a vitamin D supplement. Sleep improved, recovery improved, headaches reduced, mood improved. There are some papers saying there could be a link, but it could equally have just been reversion to the mean.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 30, 2023, 11:39:01 am
So, if anyone is still interested, bloods show high level of bilirium. Getting a retest next week. Could be a worry, could just be higher than "normal" due to strenuous exercise, stress  or cutting out caffeine.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on November 30, 2023, 11:47:04 am
Definitely still interested - and safe to say I'd never heard of bilirium, let alone guessed that was the issue! Best of luck mate, hopefully it's nothing major and you're back to normal soon
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on November 30, 2023, 11:58:08 am
Thanks, hopefully it's treatable, and not worst case..
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on November 30, 2023, 12:23:46 pm
Fingers crossed that it's innocuous or treatable and you're feeling better soon!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Falling Down on November 30, 2023, 06:43:26 pm
I hope you get treated Chris and get well soon.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: seankenny on December 01, 2023, 12:10:13 pm
Stabbsy - are you au fait with things like non sleep deep rest/yoga nidra and various breathing exercises that are recommended for post viral HR issues? Happy to suggest some things if you like, they’ve been very helpful for my long covid.

Thanks Sean, I'd be interested to hear what you've tried. I tried a few breathing exercises over the period that is was at its worst, but I'm not sure how successful they were. It was usually in the middle of the night when I'd wake up with my HR pounding, so it's maybe harder to judge if it's working. By the sounds of it, my symptoms were never as severe as yours - if I wasn't a runner (and therefore hyper-aware of my HR when exercising), I might have put it down to being very rundown/stressed.

Possibly/probably just coincidence, but my biggest improvement started not long after I started taking a vitamin D supplement. Sleep improved, recovery improved, headaches reduced, mood improved. There are some papers saying there could be a link, but it could equally have just been reversion to the mean.

Yeah these things are super hard to untangle, even in the lab: it looks like long covid has several different types, so without separating patients out it's really easy to make an underpowered study that would lead to a rejection of treatments that might well work very well for a certain subset of patients. (I have no idea if this is a regular problem in medical research but scientists looking at long covid seem quite excised by it.) So there's tons of room for patient experimentation/folk remedies/charlatans, delete as appropriate.

I had gut issues early on and found a specially developed probiotic worked really well at clearing them up.
https://yourgutplus.com/
There's some evidence from a couple of years ago if that helps, anyhow I found it useful. The Phyto-V stuff didn't do much for me.

As for breathing exercises, I've been told to do them by my cardiologist but that is specifically because I have nervous system issues - other types of long covid/post viral illness might be a bit different. I have to say that I think even healthy people should look into this stuff as it's so good for getting really high quality rest, and I suspect that for some people a regular non-sleep deep rest practice would go a long way to helping alleviate their tendon niggles. I am a bit evangelical!


Lagers recommended me these body scans from Bangor Uni:
https://www.bangor.ac.uk/centre-for-mindfulness/audio

I like Ally Boothroyd, she will undoubtedly be a bit woo for most UKBers but as long as you ignore the chakra business I reckon she's good. This one is very short and straight, iirc:
https://youtu.be/_noquwycq78?si=xl3Mq_SW16bQxGuB

Something like this is really good for getting your HRV down which always makes me feel a bit better:
https://youtu.be/lRLQ6VtI1qQ?si=0gURRcekY-o6H1fG

This channel is recommended by my doctors, it's a very gentle breathing exercise:
https://youtu.be/Jm5dhUXIQmE?si=FDHN4KN4r_JqDIDj

I usually do this laying down, with a pillow under my knees and head, a blanket and eye-patches... sorry for the image guys but I find it helps with dropping down into a really rested state. Ten mins is the minimum that works for me, initially it was twenty but my whole body was aflame with sickness so calming down was super tough. I don't think any of these methods are necessarily instant fixes but over time they help me. Usual provisos apply - I'm not a doctor, this isn't medical advice just what works for me, etc. Good luck!



Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on December 14, 2023, 01:42:41 pm
Well, second do visit, she seems to think it's this https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gastroparesis/ (doing too little core, or too much??) and has prescribed metacopramine, which seems to help. Bilirubin level still high, but she didn't seem overly concerned with that.

Appetite still very low, and feeling full, seems like I need to eat less healthy fibre, and drink more coffee! Weight loss has stabilised, mainly through using a calorie counting app and eating as much as I can stomach. Staying steady after losing about a stone. Hopefully it will recover, it's a weird feeling, never being hungry.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on December 14, 2023, 04:34:43 pm
Blimey, get well soon Chris. I bet you could sell that condition on second hand.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on December 14, 2023, 04:48:52 pm
Natural gastric band? :)

Hope that's all it is, on waiting list for a scan to see if it's anything more serious though, given that my brother died from cancer of the digestive system.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on December 14, 2023, 05:06:46 pm
Well, bollocks. Acquiring a chronic condition is never fun.

But glad you have a potential diagnosis, and hopefully it is that rather than anything more ominous!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Paul B on January 18, 2024, 11:17:01 am
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2024/01/jack_scott_wins_the_2024_montane_spine_race-73579

I've looked at this result a few times and it looks absolutely bonkers?
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on January 18, 2024, 11:23:06 am
Been following closely - I started the forum thread that's linked in the article.

And yes, it is as ridiculous as it sounds. Genuine contender for performance of the year across the world of ultra running, without a doubt, it'll take something huge to top that.
 
A record was maybe on the cards given the weather and strength of field, but never 10 hours taken off it. Incredible stuff
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on January 18, 2024, 11:27:46 am
Holy shit. And remember Paris's record smashed the previous one by 12 hours.  So that's 22 hours off the record in 5 years.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on January 18, 2024, 11:46:41 am
and 54 minutes of sleep in 3 days of that much effort. Just insane.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on January 18, 2024, 11:53:41 am
and 54 minutes of sleep in 3 days of that much effort. Just insane.

https://www.inov-8.com/inov-8-athlete-jack-scott-smashes-268-mile-spine-race-record

Quote
beside Hadrian’s Wall when I asked a member of the public to watch over me and wake me up after four minutes

I love the stories of 4 minute naps. Seems incomprehensible that it somehow helps, but it happens every time, must be a genuine tactic that works
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on January 18, 2024, 03:31:49 pm
WTF what an effort. Hats, shoes, shirt off to the lad.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chicane on January 19, 2024, 12:46:57 pm
Good job the member of the public didn't think 'poor lad looks tired' and let him sleep for an hour not that it would have affected him leading and so far ahead of the record.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: Durbs on January 24, 2024, 03:28:35 pm
I've just started on a Garmin training plan, partly to better my 5k PB (Currently 25:19, target of 22:30), partly to actually have a plan to get me out the door, and partly cos I'm getting tubby.

The overall plan is lots of easy runs, some long, some shorter, mixed in with some strides, and then some "pace runs", i.e. 400m at target pace, then 5 minutes at  a chilled pace.

Only in week 1, and ended up getting Norovirus, but Garmin at least seem to subscribe to the "lots of slow pace" as a key to success.

Shall report back on "race day" some time in January.

So, just an update.

Started the program with a 5K PB of 26:03 (not 25:19 as originally posted - that was the Mrs' using my watch...)

14-weeks (over Christmas period, so fairly hectic), mostly lots of 6-10k runs, at slow & easy pace 5:50/km, a few strides and hill sprint sessions.

Went out for 3rd attempt at PB today (1st was terrible, weirdly nervous, 2nd my watch stopped me 800m too early) and managed 23:39. Not a great time by most runners standards, but considering I only started running at all in 2020 and only did my first 10k in July '23, pretty good?

Was still 01:09 below my target time, but I'm pretty happy with it. I reckon on the flat I'd easily manage it (there's a killer hill half-way round my regular lap which just sucks the energy out of me), and regardless, my cardio is way better than it was.

What was interesting was that during the entire 14-week program, I never beat my previous PB*.
Not once in the training program was there ever a "run quite a quick 5k". The most it had me run at goal pace was 2.5km, the rest was just 45-minutes at an easy pace, with 5-10 warmups/cooldowns each end.

*There was one run where I was doing 1k at target pace (4:30/km) then 200m jogging, I stopped paying attention and didn't stop so ran an extra 1k at target pace when I was meant to be doing a cool-down - this shaved 7 seconds off my PB...


Not that fussed about working on this further, much more enjoying 10-15km runs. Added benefit of the training program is I can now squeeze a 10k run into a lunch hour.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lukeyboy on January 24, 2024, 06:22:39 pm
Congrats, that's great progress over a fairly short time period. And interesting to hear the feedback on your training regime.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SamT on February 11, 2024, 07:25:43 pm
Not into jogging myself but loved this (utmost respect for the man)

https://youtu.be/SWDUc31tTNg?si=eu8HKf7ONOrOjNyi
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 22, 2024, 10:21:15 am
OH SHIT THIS IS NOT A DRILL

Reports coming in from the Barkley that Jasmin Paris has started loop 5!!!  :bounce:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on March 22, 2024, 10:31:11 am
It’s exciting. You wouldn’t bet against her.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on March 22, 2024, 11:39:11 am
Whoop!

Anyone got any interesting races lined up? Just signed up for 15 mile Balmoral Trail Race at the end of April. Day of my 55th so seems like a good way to celebrate. Need to get hill fitness up. Amazing scenic route. 
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on March 22, 2024, 12:54:05 pm
Don’t know about interesting but I’m doing Sheffield Half in a couple of weeks with my bro. He’s not done much running but has done a lot of cycling.. I’m pacing so it’s a bit tricky to work out how fast/slow to start off. As ever for me it’s been as much a motivation to run regularly as it is about the event itself. Not sure beyond that as I’m prioritising my climbing and whilst roads fit in better around that I am getting a bit bored.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on March 22, 2024, 01:04:53 pm
Yep 7 are out on loop 5, including Jasmin. Unbelievable year, will be particularly tight for Sebastien to make it back considering he only left camp with 3 mins to spare, but it's certainly possible - daylight in their favour too.

If anyone is slightly out of the loop:

- This document has the times
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vS7bFn8RH5Na4vVxNijCsFCiHeYqRksDi5D9ddC9Fz4yK7nOQhEg8HwG78lz-PFVB2EkFn4QlJKEXMV/pubhtml#

- This is the only "official" source of updates
https://twitter.com/keithdunn

But there's a fair amount more on twitter - at least, lots of speculation and fan chat!

Cutoff is 9:17pm in UK, 5:17pm local time. So all done by this evening. Exciting!

Anyone got any interesting races lined up?
Three Peaks Race in a month or so. Then Borrowdale in early August. Currently negotiating a foot niggle so will see how those plans develop. Your trail race sounds like a cracking way to celebrate your birthday, best of luck for training and the day itself!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: SA Chris on March 22, 2024, 01:49:44 pm
As ever for me it’s been as much a motivation to run regularly as it is about the event itself.

This. Nothing focusses the mind like a looming deadline.

Always fancied 3 Peaks, but not sure it's worth the trek! Getting lazy, rather do nearby events!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: shurt on March 22, 2024, 01:56:49 pm
Although not a runner I have a strange fascination with the Barkley. Would be amazing to have 2 UK finishers and Jared Campbell could finish his 4th which is mind blowing.

There are some really interesting write ups by people who have finished here:
https://barkleymarathons.com/
and if you want your full coffee table experience, the book called The Finishers looks really cool (I don't own it)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 22, 2024, 03:23:51 pm
Although not a runner I have a strange fascination with the Barkley. Would be amazing to have 2 UK finishers and Jared Campbell could finish his 4th which is mind blowing.

There are some really interesting write ups by people who have finished here:
https://barkleymarathons.com/
and if you want your full coffee table experience, the book called The Finishers looks really cool (I don't own it)

I feel like the Barkley goes beyond running as any sort of "sports"-type activity and into being fucked-up sadomasochistic performance art engaging in an existential exploration of the nature of failure. And I respect that.

Also, for anyone interested, "The Barkley Marathons: The Race That Eats Its Young" is still 99p to rent on Apple, and outstandingly good.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: lukeyboy on March 22, 2024, 03:40:56 pm
Whoop!

Anyone got any interesting races lined up? Just signed up for 15 mile Balmoral Trail Race at the end of April. Day of my 55th so seems like a good way to celebrate. Need to get hill fitness up. Amazing scenic route.

Nice one Chris, sounds like a great race.

I've just finished a winter of lots of local (Bristol), hilly, very off road races in the 10-15 mile bracket which I've really enjoyed. It's been nice to charge and attack descents etc after a period of doing ultras.

No races lined up but I'm planning to do the Yorkshire 3 peaks loop (assume that's the same as Ed mentioned?) when we're in the Dales in May for a family wedding. I've done the loop before as part of a longer race but keen to give it a bash on it's own, plus don't think I'd have the fitness for anything longer. I'll try and start from near to our accommodation to reduce driving time, which will make it a few miles longer than usual.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: JamieG on March 22, 2024, 05:06:47 pm
Although not a runner I have a strange fascination with the Barkley. Would be amazing to have 2 UK finishers and Jared Campbell could finish his 4th which is mind blowing.

There are some really interesting write ups by people who have finished here:
https://barkleymarathons.com/
and if you want your full coffee table experience, the book called The Finishers looks really cool (I don't own it)

Ditto. I really don't like running (for me personally), but I find the ultra-running stuff weirdly compelling.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: sxrxg on March 22, 2024, 06:55:20 pm
9:17pm UK finish time. Will be glued to x (twitter) until then. Fingers crossed for the 6 heros still out there, especially #smalleuropeanwomen though really really hope she makes it, it will be tight though as she was seen at the tower with approx. 4 hours to go.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: shurt on March 22, 2024, 07:47:34 pm
More nonsense from last year
https://youtu.be/R-oEFaqUQEQ?si=DayFSQYFbHrLvjR0

The Gary Robbins doc on YouTube is worth a watch, if quite heartbreaking
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 22, 2024, 08:28:10 pm
Ihor Verys has finished!

https://twitter.com/keithdunn/status/1771266642330218762
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: sxrxg on March 22, 2024, 08:45:22 pm
And John Kelly for the third time.

Buggle has gone for Damian Hall from the UK though who arrived at the gate from the wrong direction.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 22, 2024, 09:21:35 pm
YYFY:

https://twitter.com/keithdunn/status/1771285169963438324

Jasmin Paris @JasminKParis finished loop five of the #BM100 in 59:58:21.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on March 22, 2024, 09:28:13 pm
She must have been pushing so hard those last few hours.

So, so impressive.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: sxrxg on March 22, 2024, 09:29:14 pm
1 minute 40 seconds inside the cut off for a 60 hour race is crazy. Apparently if she had taken 2 seconds more per book page she wouldn't have made it.

5 finishers, dread to think of the changes that will be made next year to make it harder...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 22, 2024, 09:56:09 pm
1 minute 40 seconds inside the cut off for a 60 hour race is crazy.

Better than 6 seconds over ...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on March 22, 2024, 11:36:19 pm
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Y4CNGFuGLdeTny9x/

Bit of video of the finish.

What a machine  :bow:
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: MarkJ on March 23, 2024, 01:32:10 am
What a legend ! I was watching Karel Sabbe's race from 2023 only two days ago. It's madness.
How many times has she raced it ?

Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: nai on March 23, 2024, 03:14:01 am
As ever for me it’s been as much a motivation to run regularly as it is about the event itself.

This. Nothing focusses the mind like a looming deadline.

Always fancied 3 Peaks, but not sure it's worth the trek! Getting lazy, rather do nearby events!

I did it last year, wanted to do it as it's so iconic and the area was where I started hill walking years back.

Not worth the travel I reckon though, no longer a fell race but for a small section on PyG and the slog up Whernside. and that section is really frustrating as you're all in the only trod so can only go at the speed of folk in front. Trying to overtake is about 4x the effort.  Guess it is quite tough on the terrain on Ingleborough and coming off there with 30k in your legs, folk in trail shoes will have been regretting their shoe choice by then.

Poor organisation as well last year at checkpoints with big queues for water due to only have one dispenser on the go.  You can send your own bottles ahead but mine both ended up at the first CP despite having put them in different buckets (that was better than them going to CP2 though, countdown clock's still ticking at 1). 

And YYFY Jasmine. Watch some 800m runner win SPOTY for doing a couple of laps at the Olympics
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 23, 2024, 06:24:22 am
What a legend ! I was watching Karel Sabbe's race from 2023 only two days ago. It's madness.
How many times has she raced it ?

I believe this was her third attempt -- on her first attempt (in 2022) she got a Fun Run, in 2023 she timed out on the fourth loop (after 9 out of 13 pages), and now here we are!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: chriss on March 23, 2024, 07:21:12 am


And YYFY Jasmine. Watch some 800m runner win SPOTY for doing a couple of laps at the Olympics
[/quote]

What Jasmine (and any other finisher) of the BM has done is simply incredible, but I think you are being a little disingenuous to Track & Field athletes. They don't get much financial support & it's as, if not more competitive than ultras at the top level.

I don't see anyone calling Bosi shit because he bashes out 6 move boulders instead of spending Day on the Nose.

Anyway rant over, take a bow & a hot bath Jasmine, what an epic effort.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: nik at work on March 23, 2024, 07:54:21 am
Was going to post exactly the same.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: shurt on March 23, 2024, 09:22:02 am
Gutted for Damian Rice and Jasmin finishing is incredible.

I'm also amazed that Jared Campbell made it round as so many of his recent attempts have been stopped due to a recurring knee problem. 4th time finishing is utterly mind blowing considering when his first was (years back can't remember the date). He also very sportingly offered Jasmin the choice of which ch direction she wanted for last lap but what the fuck is easy about the race...
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: edshakey on March 23, 2024, 09:47:47 am
I think one thing that really underlines how good Jasmin is is how Courtney Dauwalter fared in 2021 and 2022. Granted, there were no finishes those years, but Jasmin still managed a fun run in 2022. And Courtney is seen as the best female ultrarunner by a long way, so for her to never manage more than a single lap at Barkley really goes to show that Jasmin has done something quite special.

Racing this morning, will be channeling this inspiration!
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: T_B on March 23, 2024, 10:07:06 am
Her peers are describing it as one of the greatest ultra performances ever. Says it all.
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: remus on March 23, 2024, 12:56:09 pm
Front page of the BBC!

(https://climbing-history.org/file/3ac5b471-3b9b-0ade-a20c-5f49c9b44ca4/Screenshot_20240323_135417.png)
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: steveri on March 23, 2024, 01:20:39 pm
Flipping magic, if you haven’t seen the finish it’s worth a watch, redefining trying hard…
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Y4CNGFuGLdeTny9x/
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 24, 2024, 06:47:45 pm
Flipping magic, if you haven’t seen the finish it’s worth a watch, redefining trying hard…
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Y4CNGFuGLdeTny9x/

Her description of her thought process:

https://run247.com/running-news/trail/jasmin-paris-barkley-marathons-2024-dramatic-finish

"And then I guess I thought I’ll either pass out or I’ll finish."
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 26, 2024, 02:17:16 pm
First interview!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/mar/25/jasmin-paris-interview-barkley-marathons-ultramarathon-history
Title: Re: One for the runners
Post by: slab_happy on March 26, 2024, 05:29:22 pm
Also a really lovely little piece from John Kelly, one of the other 2024 finishers (and a member of the miniscule club of people who have finished more than once):

https://www.instagram.com/p/C45tCzHLxUR/
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