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get involved: access, environment, BMC / Re: BMC Resolutions shout out 📣

« Last post by Aussiegav on Today at 03:42:47 pm »

Difficult to learn from this when there’s lack of understanding, rigour & governance structure to identify where it’s gone wrong. Further compounded by the lack of integrity & probity in the way the BMC runs.

Hats off to Shark and others who valiantly fought to hold the BMC to account and act in the best interests of BMC members.

I’m seriously considering ceasing my membership and transferring the funds to the Peak Bolting group.

Any recommendations for a company that offers good travel insurance for climbers

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news / Re: The inevitable E grade thread

« Last post by Nemo on Today at 03:27:26 pm »

"Who would possibly relate uk tech grades to sport grades? That would make no sense."

Errrr.  Anyone trying to give the UK tech grade to any long hard route to satisfy the likes of yourself or an old skool guidebook writer, when they know perfectly well how hard it is in Fr grades.

"E9 6c and E11 7a do tell you rather more. As much, or more, as 7b+ X and 8c+ R?"

But not anywhere near as much as what you actually should have, which is E9 Fr7b+ and E11 Fr8c+
I'm not saying anything terribly novel here.
The above, for routes over about E6 has already been adopted in many guidebooks.

"Because 8c+ R doesn't suggest something special, whereas E12 might"

Sure.  On that we're agreed.  As said many times now, I'm NOT trying to get rid of E grades.  I'm trying to make them actually work as a coherent system at all levels of difficulty.  I agree that if used properly, they're better than all the alternatives for grading trad routes.

"Unless you're saying the UK trad grade is *not* a measure of how hard it is to onsight."

It is up to around E7.  As I said before, on stuff above this, it's not in practice how it's used.  Things E8 and above are graded on how hard they are to headpoint (and indeed some may be utterly ridiculous to even consider onsighting - doesn't mean they're given E15).

The question is not 'are E-grades perfect' it's 'is there a better system?' If top climbers found it unusable, they would have adopted something like the above. Why haven't they?

They have.  You just seem to not have noticed.  It looks like this (and this is obviously a very small subset of routes over E9 to illustrate the discussion - there's clearly loads of info missing - just posted where I got to with it earlier in the half an hour I had to play with):


E12?
Bon Voyage         9a         Annot (France)        James Pearson (2023), Adam Ondra   

Hard E11 ?
Echo Wall         8c/8c+        Ben Nevis      Dave Macleod (2008)

E11
Power Ranger              8c+                               James Pearson (2017)
Tribe            9a/9a+      Cadarese (Italy)   Jacopo Larcher (2019), James Pearson
The Best Things...      9a                               William Moss (2023)
Crown Royale         9a              Norway         Pete Whittaker (2023)

Hard E10 / E11?
Rhapsody         8c/8c+        Dumbarton      Dave Macleod (2006), >3 repeats
Lexicon            8b+              Pavey Ark      Neil Gresham (2021), >3 repeats
Meltdown                 8c+              Yosemite (US)      Beth Rodden (2008), >3 repeats
The Recovery Drink   8c+              Norway         Nicolas Favresse (2013), Daniel Jung, Pete Whittaker

E10                  
Choronzon         8b+        Pembroke              Neil Mawson (2014), Steve McClure
Equilibrium         8b+        Burbage                 Neil Bentley (2000), Neil Gresham, James Pearson
The Groove         8b        Cratcliffe                      James Pearson
Baron Greenback Direct 8b+        Wimberry                      Pete Whittaker
To Hell And Back      7c+        Hell’s Lum              Dave Macleod (2007), Dave Birkett   
Le Voyage         8b+      Annot (France)      James Pearson (2017).  >3 repeats, including a flash by Sebastien Berthe.
Magic Line         8c               Ron Kauk (1996), Lonnie Kauk, Hazel Findlay, Carlo Traversi
The Bull                 8b+               Jeremy Smith (2013), Ben Harnden
The Bigger Baron      8b+               Pete Whittaker (2014)
Stranger Than Fiction   8c               Mason Earle (2015), Brittany Goris, Lor Sabourin, Pete Whittaker
GreatNess Wall      8c               Steve McClure (2019)
Century Crack         8c               Tom Randall (2011), Pete Whittaker, Danny Parker, Fumiya Nakamura

E9/10
Hold Fast Hold True   8a/8a+      Glen Nevis      Julian Lines (2013), Iain Small, Franco Cookson

Hard E9
Face Mecca         7c+                Cloggy         Nick Dixon (1989)
Widdop Wall         8a+/8b      Widdop         John Dunne (1998), Jordan Buys

E9
The Long Hope Route   8b                       Dave Macleod
The Walk Of Life      8a+      Dyer’s Lookout   James Pearson
Dark Religion         8a+        Dinas Mot      James McCaffie (2016)
Holdfast                 7c+        Glen Nevis      Dave Macleod (2002)
The Fugue         8a+        Glen Croe      Dave Macleod (2002)
Achemine         8b        Dumbarton      Dave Macleod (2001)
If Six Was Nine      8a+      Iron Crag              Dave Birkett (1992)
Indian Face         7b+      Cloggy         Johnny Dawes (1986)
Mission Impossible      8a+        Ogwen         Neil Carson
Something’s Burning   8a+/8b   Pembroke      Charlie Woodburn (2012)
The Big Issue         8b        Pembroke      John Dunne
The Prow                 Font 8A+ Kyloe In           Andy Earl    
Captain Invincible      8b/8b+   Burbage South   Sean Miles (1991)
Baron Greenback      8a+        Wimberry              Pete Whittaker (2013), Ben Bransby
Gerty Berwick         Font 8A   Ilkley              Ryan Pasquill (2009), James Pearson
The Lizard King      8a+        Ilkley         Jacob Cook (2014)
Muy Caliente         8a+        Pembroke      Tim Emmett



Clearly there's a LOT more to add into that (huge numbers of routes missing, probably lots wrong in the above).  As and when I (or probably better someone else) have time, I'll try and improve it, but it may be later in the year.

But it's fine for demonstrating that the above is actually a cohesive grading system.  Giving all the above 6c, 7a or whatever, is not useful and it's not how pretty much anyone climbing those routes thinks about it.

Or at least, it could be a cohesive grading system, if everyone can agree how E grades should actually be applied, particularly for shorter routes.

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news / Re: The inevitable E grade thread

« Last post by teestub on Today at 03:03:29 pm »

Why haven't they? Because 8c+ R doesn't suggest something special, whereas E12 might.

I don’t get this bit; 9aR for Pearson’s thing for example still lets you know it’s amongst the physically hardest trad pitches ever climbed, and not a total clip up either; I don’t see what the extreme grade adds?

Top UK climbers probably like E grades as double digit ones are way better for column inches due to the punter interest!

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news / Re: The inevitable E grade thread

« Last post by ToxicBilberry on Today at 02:52:47 pm »

I’m not convinced the crux of Right Wall would be 4b off the deck?

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competitions / Re: IFSC comps 2024

« Last post by edshakey on Today at 02:18:15 pm »

It did seem that it could have been intended though, since those kind of jumps are very much a trend at the minute. Like when the 180 spin first got set last year. People have clearly been training that move (see Tomoa setting a similar move in that new video with Magnus), so I suppose it's no wonder their minds went towards a jump.
Not disputing that the spin was easier though, Meichi (I think it was him?) made it look quite straightforward.

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news / Re: The inevitable E grade thread

« Last post by Johnny Brown on Today at 02:02:36 pm »

So not read all the above properly, hope I've not misunderstood the gist

Why bother then? You've misread. Who would possibly relate uk tech grades to sport grades? That would make no sense.

JB tends to think about this stuff in terms of a particular subset of short grit bouldery routes.

No, which is why I used lots of sea cliff examples. I'm using these, and grit, to illustrate the extremes, which seem to confuse people. No one is confused about the middle of the road.

I will admit to not being very interested about the grades of E9+. Grades are arrived at by consensus, and there isn't any here, because they have few ascents with less objectivity than normal.

Indian face gets 6c.  (ie: a Fr7b+)
Rhapsody gets 7a.  (ie: a Fr8c+)

Well, as I keep saying, these are half the grade and E9 6c and E11 7a do tell you rather more. As much, or more, as 7b+ X and 8c+ R?

The question is not 'are E-grades perfect' it's 'is there a better system?' If top climbers found it unusable, they would have adopted something like the above. Why haven't they? Because 8c+ R doesn't suggest something special, whereas E12 might. I can see if you've a preference towards safe, hard climbing, you might prefer 8c+ R because it suggests the difficulty isn't remarkable by modern standards, and wouldn't pull focus from the 'real-deal' 9b+. But others might think the opposite; there are many climbs, and many types of climbers, and plenty of room in the modern media to celebrate all of them.

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for sale / wanted / Re: FS: Snap pad

« Last post by Dingdong on Today at 01:39:45 pm »

I'll have it if it's still going mate

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news / Re: The inevitable E grade thread

« Last post by Nemo on Today at 01:24:16 pm »

Very little time today, and probably most of this week.  So not read all the above properly, hope I've not misunderstood the gist.  But very quickly:

"I've always had uk 7a starting around 7B up to 7C+ ish, with 7b covering 8A and up"

But that isn't how it's actually used right, except for on a small subset of micro grit routes?
Indian face gets 6c.  (ie: a Fr7b+)
Rhapsody gets 7a.  (ie: a Fr8c+)
(And given time, I could give more examples all day).

That isn't a frickin useful technical grade.

Whilst he didn't like it when I said it earlier, the truth is that as far as I can tell, JB tends to think about this stuff in terms of a particular subset of short grit bouldery routes.  Sure he's climbed longer safe stuff occasionally, but it doesn't seem to affect his views on grades as that's predominantly not what he's thinking about.
And perhaps more importantly, he has zero interest in headpointing (and indeed a lot of disdain for it), and so has no interest in a grading system that hangs together upwards of E8 (which is primarily where all the bunfights around this stuff happen and where we need a better system going forwards).

"if I recall correctly, is something akin to Xeno's paradox where any move can be subdivided into components no harder than 6c"

No, it has nothing to do with that.
It is the fact that for hard trad routes, all the people climbing them (even hard trad specialists) have climbed way way more things of that physical difficulty as sport or boulders.
And so they compare physical difficulty via the hundreds of similar level sport or boulders they've climbed, vs the one E10 that might have had similar physical difficulty.  That's just how it is.  You can complain about it all day, it just isn't going to change the reality of how people talk about physical difficulty on hard trad routes.

(Obviously there's all the separate issues around the tech grade not having a clear definition, being supposed to be the grade of the hardest move, but never really being used like that etc - put the crux of right wall or positron on the ground and they would be 4b).  It works fine up to around 6b, above that, it just isn't useful, has never been clearly defined, and everyone climbing hard routes stopped talking about physical difficulty that way a very long time ago.

Could say a lot more.
I may not get time, but If I get around to it in the next few weeks at some point, I may try and put together a very quick attempt at a graded list of everything out there over E9.  At which point when everything on the entire list gets 6c or 7a, with maybe one or 2 7bs, the argument about the pointlessness of the tech grade makes itself.

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for sale / wanted / FS: Snap pad

« Last post by Dolly on Today at 01:04:33 pm »

Pick up from or near S8. Got some life left in it but no for my knees. £35

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competitions / Re: IFSC comps 2024

« Last post by dave k on Today at 12:16:52 pm »

The one legged jump on the mens was not the intended beta, but as only 1 athlete really tried it the intended way, then it ended up looking quite dangerous. The intended way 180 rotation was definitely the easiest method.