[Bonjoy]

Sloper, Sloper, is that all Mr let’s-talk-politicsTM has to bring to this discussion, a handful of insults thrown from a position of ignorance? I am interested to hear an explanation of why I'm ignorant, egotistical and what these double standards are.

there certainly IS a debate.

the hold has not fallen off mate!!

You mean it WAS a debate. It seems to have descended into something else.


Anyway.

Tribes - You think a three star 7c+ loosing a hold and turning into a grim zero star 8a proves your point?! I'd argue it proves my point.
Zeke – Haven’t been on it so couldn’t comment

BTW, has anyone asked Basher?

ring ring...ring ring....
"Hello Martin 'Basher' Atkinson speaking."
"Would you consent to me putting half a teaspoon of resin on an already glued on hold, on the glued up route you did 25 years ago?"

If I bumped into him at the crag maybe, but call him up about such a trivial non-issue, when I already as good as know he wouldn’t give a crap?

In times gone by the 1st ascensionist would be the one to take the decision on this...

In times gone by the FA would still have been an active climber. This is twenty odd years later and the FA doesn’t really do much sport climbing in the peak anymore.
The idea of FA permission has always been a courtesy thing. Total adherence to it is neither practical nor desirable when it comes to such a minor issue as this.

[nik at work]

Add Johnny Brown to the list of people with whom I am in agreement with.

Also thanks to JC for giving his "at the coal face" opinion as a current suitor of the route.

[Bonjoy]

JB - Given the context of you being totally against the use of bolts and sika at all on any peak crag, I think your view went without saying.
 Clearly my twenty years of climbing in the peak makes me a clueless whippers snapper when held up against these wise old sages. More insults, whatever happened to quality debate?  ???

 Here's an alternative view of how this argument (and many other similar internet 'debates') splits climbers. The group who are directly affected by the point in question hold the pragmatic logical view. The group who it has no practical effect on rush to occupy the apparent moral high ground, then resort to hurling insults when pushed to expound on a subject they don't really understand.

[travs]

That's very interesting Bonjoy. Are you including myself in your grouping of those who have no interest in the route, are hurling abuse, and taking the moral highground? Be careful and reread my postings before answering this one.

[slackline]

I'm firmly in the group who this has no practical effect on, but isn't this a case of artificially modifying a route, irrespective of whether the grade is being brought down/up to whatever level?

If someone had chipped a hold there would be up-roar at the desecration, by the sound of it the demise of this hold has occurred naturally so why try and fight the geological forces that create the strata climbed on?

[Bonjoy]

That's very interesting Bonjoy. Are you including myself in your grouping of those who have no interest in the route, are hurling abuse, and taking the moral highground? Be careful and reread my postings before answering this one.

No I wasn't accussing you of hurling insults. Of all the the no-fixers you are the most likely to get on Mecca I'd guess, although I do admit that having never seen you with a rope on (apart from in old guides) I had thought you only bouldered these days. My mistake.

[Johnny Brown]

JB - Given the context of you being totally against the use of bolts and sika at all on any peak crag, I think your view went without saying.

That may be, however I kept an open mind and found travs arguments more compelling then yours this time. As ever this will not be decided here, it will either be glued back on or not. Andy's initial dismay did seem a bit over the top though.

[Bonjoy]

I'm firmly in the group who this has no practical effect on, but isn't this a case of artificially modifying a route, irrespective of whether the grade is being brought down/up to whatever level?

If someone had chipped a hold there would be up-roar at the desecration, by the sound of it the demise of this hold has occurred naturally so why try and fight the geological forces that create the strata climbed on?

Without going into lengthy explanation or repetition of previous posts. Mecca is not a climbable route due to natural processes alone. If you accept your point, then by the same logic it shouldn't exist in the first place and should be left to become extinct as crucial holds fall off it. This might be your's and JB's view but as someone who enjoys peak sport climbing I see a minimum level of gluing as a nesessity. Where that level is is the point of this discussion, not whether or not it should happen at all. That is a valid discusion, but a different one.

[travs]

To be fair Bonjoy your comment on the rope is very true, however, I have been mulling over the idea of doing a few routes I failed to tick all those years ago with Mecca being one of them. As they say 'Never say Never'.

[Jaspersharpe]

How anyone feels that they can take some sort of ethical moral high ground on this is beyond belief and the fact that one person has decided to drag the thread into the gutter of name calling and insult throwing is very sad indeed and not in the spirit of this forum.

Someone should just go and fix the fucking thing before people start thinking this is a major issue instead of something that has happened hundreds of times in the past and will happen hundreds of times again in the future.

Sloper, Sloper, is that all Mr let’s-talk-politicsTM has to bring to this discussion, a handful of insults thrown from a position of ignorance? I am interested to hear an explanation of why I'm ignorant, egotistical and what these double standards are.

Hear hear.

[nik at work]

Bonjoy I think you have maybe misjudged to mojority of those posting against the glueing.

Sloper has thrown insults, and received a return.

I don't think anybody else has been insulting, unless you count my dismissal of the whole event as historically insignificant?

I also don't think anybody is really playing the "we are the wise elders of the tribe" card. Lets be honest it is hard to have a moral high ground about a glued together piece of limestone that annecdotal evidence would suggest is doing its best to fall down. My feeling (which appears to be shared by others) is that given the route is still climbable in much the same way at much the same grade using much the same sequence nothing needs doing. Had the actual hold fallen of and was lying at the bottom of the crag then by all means glue it back on but in this case it strikes me that nothign needs doing. Who is losing out by doing nothing? Nobody in my eyes. And by the same token nobody gains anything by doing something. So why bother?

At the end of the day it will probably get a dab of glue, and to be honest it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm certainly not going to set up a mini protest camp at the crag but feel perfectly justified in expressing an opinion on this forum.

[Fiend]

There's a lot of talk about history, significance, benchmarks, grades, hardest this, life's work that, and not much about the quality (I mean climbing quality irrespective of whether it's one's big tick or not).

Don't you see? All of those things together equal quality. I doubt the change in the hold makes a vast difference to the 'feel' of the move. But the quality of the experience both for past and future ascentionists is arguably devalued by the change.

Do they equal quality? Is it devalued?

I would put quality of the moves, technical interest, continuity of climbing, balance of the route, distinctiveness of the climbing, beauty of the rock, strikingness of the line, and atmosphere and position to be far above "history, significance, benchmarks, grades". I think the former factors are far more important than the latter factors. The latter factors might make a route more "significant" or "essential" (shades of Hard Rock "essential tick regardless of quality" yuckiness there), but they don't necessarily make it any better a CLIMB nor CLIMBING.

Why else would everyone who it directly effects, who has posted on here, be in favour of fixing the hold?

Because they want to hang on to something important to them....but it isn't necessarily route quality.

I'm obviously in the "I could never climb this in a million years camp", but I'm not totally ignorant about the issues at stake, they apply irrespective of grade or difficulty. But to use an example I do have direct experience of, imagine a hypothetical example with Comes The Dervish:

Say a chunk of rock falls out of CTD at the lower crux, revealing a good wire slot.
(Say a chunk of rock falls out of a Mecca hold, revealing a better hold.)

Say that change to the route makes it an easier proposition, E2 instead of E3.
(Say that change to the route makes it an easier proposition, easy F8b+ or F8b instead of benchmark F8b+.)

Say that route previously has been an aspiration for many people and a highly regarded, historical, and significant big tick at that grade.
(Say that route previously has been an aspiration for many people and a highly regarded, historical, and significant big tick at that grade.)

Say that now CTD is not the same historical big tick and people have lost the opportunity to climb it like that.
(Say that now Mecca is not the same historical big tick and people have lost the opportunity to climb it like that.)

But has the reduction in stature and significance actually make it a worse route?
(But has the reduction in stature and significance actually make it a worse route?)

IMO, if such a thing happened to CTD, I would say it would actually be a much better route - a brilliantly balanced E2 instead of a squittery E3 highball with a proper route stacked on top. We'd all lose the classic tick but we'd gain a higher quality climb.

OBVIOUSLY I have no idea how much change the alteration of a hold will make to the quality of Mecca - but that's why I was asking and pressing the issue, because I believe that is the most important factor to take into account.

If someone is going to say "Actually, not only does it make it easier, it makes it worse, it's now a gash move, it unbalances the route, it's not as much fun or pleasure to climb it"....then totally fair enough, that's a good case.

P.S. It might not be a major issue but I find it interesting.

[account_inactive]

Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to  approach me directly and discuss the issue.

Why would anyone discuss this issue with you?  Does your opinion count?

Just to clarify, my heckles were raised by Sloper thinking that his opinion was so great that people would be so weak as not to challenge him face to face. I wasn't commenting on his view point in this debate.

Things get glued on and fall off all of the time on Limestone. If we want to maintain the routes we need to be proactive about these situations and reinforce holds before they fall off.  If that was the case here no one would have been complaining about someone backing up the hold................. although gluing on the In brine hold for the umpteenth time is ok.

fade to grey

There are instances on grit when this has happened too. What about when the top of the Joker came off?  I don't see JB up there with a crow bar.

[Bonjoy]

Nik – Fiend – Both good posts.
Nik – the reference to insults was not pointed at you at all. The reference to ‘wise sages’ was in response to JB’s assertion that my stance was a product of a supposed lack of maturity in the sport compared to Travs and Fatdoc.
 I think we are tending toward agreement that this is so minor (especially when compared with the volume of glue on the crag already) as to be outside the realm of moral/ethical consideration.
 Which leaves you with the pragmatic argument. You ask who is losing out by it not being fixed? Basically it muddies the water regarding Mecca’s status as 8b+ testpiece. Whether or not the difficulty has actually changed, a perception will exist that it has and it will split people into pre and post hold-change ascentionists. It is a fairly trivial matter, but the remedy is equally trivial so might as well be carried out.

Fiend – Climbing is many things. Protracted redpoint style sport climbing is very different from onsighting on grit. For someone spending months, perhaps years, trying to climb Mecca “quality of the moves, technical interest, continuity of climbing, balance of the route, distinctiveness of the climbing, beauty of the rock, strikingness of the line, and atmosphere and position” are all important, but it is more about personal challenge and difficulty. It’s about getting your frail ass up this monolithic object of difficulty i.e. the route’s testpiece status is a larger than usual factor in the equation. Therefore any slight movement of the goalposts is significant. It’s like running a 4 minute mile, then being told that the guy who marks the track put the line a metre back from where it should be, but figured it was no big deal so didn’t change it back. It might make no practical difference but it has devalued the quality of the achievement. The quality of the track and movements involved are no different, but the quality of the endeavour to the runner is negatively effected in a way seemingly out of proportion to the discrepancy.

[Sloper]

I'm firmly in the group who this has no practical effect on, but isn't this a case of artificially modifying a route, irrespective of whether the grade is being brought down/up to whatever level?

If someone had chipped a hold there would be up-roar at the desecration, by the sound of it the demise of this hold has occurred naturally so why try and fight the geological forces that create the strata climbed on?

Without going into lengthy explanation or repetition of previous posts. Mecca is not a climbable route due to natural processes alone. If you accept your point, then by the same logic it shouldn't exist in the first place and should be left to become extinct as crucial holds fall off it. This might be your's and JB's view but as someone who enjoys peak sport climbing I see a minimum level of gluing as a nesessity. Where that level is is the point of this discussion, not whether or not it should happen at all. That is a valid discusion, but a different one.

Well ALL the routes at millstone are the result of non natural processes, by extension of your argument you would support certain peg pockets being reduced in size etc.

My point about the arrogance was with regard to the posturing of 'only those who have climbed the route etc can comment'.

Dylan, your retraction though welcome appears duplicitous, as for your point about the hold on the joker, that's the replacement of a hold rather than a re-creation of a hold; a subtle but important difference.

In my opinion if the rock breaks so be it, accept the new challenge as it is or not at all.  The significance given to the affect that the breakage has had on the grade, to me, speaks volumes.

[Bonjoy]

Well ALL the routes at millstone are the result of non natural processes, by extension of your argument you would support certain peg pockets being reduced in size etc.

No, one is trad grit and one is sport lime. Different situation, different rules. One rule fits all is a recipe for disaster.
 The comparison is also weak as one is incidentally produced by quarrying and aid climbing and one is deliberately reinforced to stabilise the climbing.

[Johnny Brown]

It’s about getting your frail ass up this monolithic object of difficulty i.e. the route’s testpiece status is a larger than usual factor in the equation. Therefore any slight movement of the goalposts is significant. It’s like running a 4 minute mile, then being told that the guy who marks the track put the line a metre back from where it should be, but figured it was no big deal so didn’t change it back.

This is a good point, but it doesn't stand up. As I said earlier you are assuming one state of the route (when you first tried it?) as being definitive. As others have already pointed out, this isn't the case - it has changed meny times already. It seems you are prepared to let it get harder but not easier.

[Kingy]

you are assuming one state of the route as being definitive. As others have already pointed out, this isn't the case - it has changed meny times already. It seems you are prepared to let it get harder but not easier.

I don't think this is quite the point. It is regrettable that the route changed in the past. We are merely trying to make sure it doesn't happen like this again by being pro-active with the glue tube rather than just let it crumble away before our eyes.

[Bonjoy]

JB - I agree, it's arbitary to call any state the definative one. I have described the changes to this route myself earlier in the thread. However, given that if you do nothing it will eventually cease to be climbable you might as well make the effort to patch repair it as an when you spot hold loss.
The current state has a stronger case than any other for being the definative one and is the only one we have the option to preserve. As i said earlier, it has changed little in the last ten years (bar the crimp in question falling off and being stuck back on again) and the three extensions where done in this state. When people aspire to do Mecca they are, I believe, aspiring to do Mecca as it has been for a decade, if that is not a strong case for calling the state definative, I don't know what could be.

[Jaspersharpe]

My point about the arrogance was with regard to the posturing of 'only those who have climbed the route etc can comment'.

Having reread the thread I'm struggling to see where you got this idea (that has offended you so) from. Nobody (apart from you) has said that "only those who have climbed the route etc can comment" on the hold.

[fatdoc]

now that the abuse hurling has relented I wanna clarify my stance:

I'm old, I'm too heavy to redpoint 8s... i dont care about this...

I in no way consider myself an elder statesmen, nor influencial nor a greater voice than others by being of more years than most..

i've done my time at the Tor, it gave me >15 years of experiences climbing...

the bigger picture of route / crag evolution is my prime concern

I'd love the route to still be a route, no doubt one day i'll be getting a cricked neck belaying my kids on it.. it's really rather good for a tor route IMO..

but as it's still a route, near on a similar grade and it's not in climbing gym. it will and has changed with time..

i agree if the hold was on the floor of the cliff then stick it on, a fine line of personal judgement, it's just an opinion


Andy??

what are your thoughts now?

BTW, I'm not convinced that ruling out Basher's opinion is right. The first big gluing job on the crag was by him, on this route..

[Sloper]

My point about the arrogance was with regard to the posturing of 'only those who have climbed the route etc can comment'.

Having reread the thread I'm struggling to see where you got this idea (that has offended you so) from. Nobody (apart from you) has said that "only those who have climbed the route etc can comment" on the hold.

No they didn't say comment but they did say 'Like Jon said it's up to the people who have already redpointed to make a decision'.

[Bonjoy]

That quote of Dylan's can only be about Fatdoc's remark

It's one to decide by those operating at that level.

  as I have said nothing to that effect in this thread, neither has the only other jon JC.
So you're actually calling Fatdoc arrogant and posturing and he's arguing the same side as you!!   

[Jaspersharpe]

Exactly. It's also a fucking big leap to make from those comments to a position where you feel the need to start throwing insults about - even misdirected ones. Especially as the rest of this discussion has been conducted in a thoroughly civilised fashion. Enough anyway, just thought it worth pointing out that nobody'd actually said these things.

 

[fatdoc]

i'm getting one of my headaches