[moose]

I thought someone had proposed a radical answer to the original question when I saw the thread called "eugenics"...

[Doylo]

Some of this stuff is dynamite Andy

I tackle a  problem a  move at a time whereas I see young guys slap there way up stuff in a  kind of kartwheel motion (eg. Ondra).

Its actually a pretty small area of the sport these youths are excelling at - steep with small holds. I think its fair to say they are not generally good all-round climbers.

Yeah Ondra defo ain't an all rounder. Climbing La rambla 40 metres and Action Directe 10 Metres and doing dreamtime in 4 hours and Shadowfax in 30 minutes is well specific.

[Johnny Brown]

Did you even read my post? Which of those isn't steep with small holds?

Has he climbed any big walls? Cracks? Slabs, Ice climbs, alpine peaks, I mean I could go on... I'm not trying to put him down, just saying this is a big sport

[The Sausage]

For a different perspective, here's how I broke down 'technique' in a recent email to Keith. I think we all know it when we see it, or the lack of it, but it seems no one understands it and fewer know how to train it. Mine is a more holistic approach than how to use slopers/ crimps/ heel-hooks etc, not to say either approach is better mind.

Its just about good movement, and more importantly right movement, the most appropriate movement. I guess that's why it has always appealed to me, I've always been obsessed with doing whatever will get me the most out of a given situation, hence why I go botanising not climbing when in the woodwell area.

I agree its not all about:
1. Footwork, however its usually true to say those who use their arms too much are crap on slabs. I don't see much point in learning to use the smallest handholds if you can't use the smallest footholds, and slabs are the easiest way to sort this. Its no different to using handholds - Precision comes first, then Foot/ ankle Positioning to make the hold work.

The other aspects I'd say are:
2. Reading the Rock, ie spotting and refining the most efficient sequence, and
3. Centre of Gravity Control/ use, ie without neccessarily changing the sequence you can alter body position to make the holds work better.
I wouldn't say Flexibility is an aspect of technique in itself but it does give you more options. Big muscles and inflexibility seem to be a happy couple as a rule

Come on JB, have you never seen male olympic gymnastics?

[r-man]

Has he climbed any big walls? Cracks? Slabs, Ice climbs, alpine peaks, I mean I could go on... I'm not trying to put him down, just saying this is a big sport

You could say it's a big sport, or you could say those are all different sports...

Stuff like ice climbing, alpine peaks, aid climbing, even trad climbing, are all to a greater or lesser extent somewhat removed from the pure challenge of movement on rock, which I assume is what most people are talking about. They all involve lots of equipment, and skills needed to use that equipment. Then there's risk management and head-games, not to mention a whole host of other issues. Climbing is movement over rock, and that's what we are talking about here - the physical limits of pure climbing.

As for whether Ondra has climbed on different styles of route, I just checked his scorecard. He has done the FA of an 8b+ slab (in slight rain!), as well as multi-pitch sport up to 8b+ (silbergeier).

Here's an interview http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews.lasso?l=2&keyid=35758#

[Paz]

Come on JB, have you never seen male olympic gymnastics?

Think he meant within the climing world.  Gymnasts, for all their strength, flexibility, grace, poise, precision and what have you, from a climing point of view are basically just a bunch of jug monkeys.

[Johnny Brown]

I had a mate at uni who kickboxed and was built to fuck as a result, he could still drop into box splits without warming up. I can't, never got close, and yet am regarded as cheatingly bendy by friends.

Ondra is the greatest new talent we've seen in many years, no doubt. I look forward to see him embrace all aspects of the sport and redefine them. Currently he has only done that to sport climbing - the ratiken may be multi pitch but it is still bolted limestone. Bouldering may be next, and then he might go big on the granite, but to be an 'all-rounder' he still has to do all these other things, that's why it called 'all-round'.

edit; we should have just read r-man's link and not bothered with this thread

In the last couple of years you have travelled and climbed a great deal. How has climbing changed?
There are more climbers, but more people climb indoors and don't go out often. And few people go to old school areas. What I find very impressive is how fast news travels. Somebody climbs a new route and next day the whole climbing community knows about it!

In some sports, such as gymnastics, very young athletes excel. Can you see sports climbing developing in this way?
I think many very young climbers are interested in competitions. I see it in my category in the EYS. But few of these climb on rocks. Yes, maybe they can't go outdoors because their parents can't afford it or for many other reasons. But in general I think more athletes will excel in competitions than on rocks. But I don't have the absolute truth, I really don't know....

[Paul B]

Has he climbed any big walls? Cracks? Slabs, Ice climbs, alpine peaks, I mean I could go on... I'm not trying to put him down, just saying this is a big sport

You could say it's a big sport, or you could say those are all different sports...

Stuff like ice climbing, alpine peaks, aid climbing, even trad climbing, are all to a greater or lesser extent somewhat removed from the pure challenge of movement on rock, which I assume is what most people are talking about.

Again i'm in agreement with R-man.

I'm not sure box splits are particularly relevant to climbing    previous discussions have noted that being overly flexible can be a hindrance and can put you at greater risk of injury if you're not strong enough to support the increased range of motion available to you.

[Doylo]

Did you even read my post? Which of those isn't steep with small holds?

Has he climbed any big walls? Cracks? Slabs, Ice climbs, alpine peaks, I mean I could go on... I'm not trying to put him down, just saying this is a big sport

Well according to that no one on the planet is a good all round climber, who does everything at the top level, no one! Your superman doesn't exist. I just don't think you can say the likes of Ondra aren't good all round climbers. He'd eat up most of those el cap free routes and i doubt he'd get pumped with an ice axe in his hand.

[Fiend]

How come young kids are taking down such big numbers?

This is something that's been on my mind for a while and I've finally decided to put pen to paper and start a debate. This covers a big area so I want to limit the scope of the discussion to bouldering and specifically young guys (easy!).

The facts:
Young guys are now taking down some awfully big Nos.

Up until 5 years ago the strongest boulders were almost certainly in late 20's to late 30's.
Check out 8a. nu, particularly the American bit and the amount of guys ticking 8b & above born late 80's early 90's is huge. Interestingly in the UK it's almost a reverse.

Generally these guys are pretty skinny and not fully developed.

Back in the day Ben Bransby climbing E2 aged 10 was big news!!

Why is it so?
I don't think this can be limited to 1 or 2 things but more that it's multi-factorial. In my opinion though I'm sure some things have a greater weighting.

Most people of my age or older didn't start climbing until 18 (basically until joining uni) or maybe 16 if in the scouts.

Clearly training facilities and knowledge are much better now.

By the time they get to 18 some kids have been climbing for 15 years (eg. Sharma).

By climbing from an early age and particularly indoors you develop a sense of movement that is much more efficient & quick. eg. I tackle a  problem a  move at a time whereas I see young guys slap there way up stuff in a  kind of kartwheel motion (eg. Ondra).

Clearly there are so many more people bouldering these days that many are at the upper end of the normal distribution curve.

There is less of an issue these days of believing you could never be as good as the top guys of the time as there are so many more people there. eg. I could never be as good as Ben Moon because he's so much stronger than me.

Regular / cheap travel is now the norm and people can climb all year round.

Steep climbing is good at developing power and now found anywhere.

Comps are everywhere.


Why am I surprised at this phenomenon
Young guys are pretty much at the top in the sport which is not so in other sports (except female gymnastics).
These guys are skinny and have v.little muscle and if put in gym would have little power (even relative to there weight) vs older guys.
This is totally in contrast to 10+ years ago.


Some Q's
Is there some bias to weight in the power to weight equation you don't see in for eg. cars.
By training young do you get abnormally strong fingers so even if you have little power you can apply it.

I think that's enough. let the debate begin and maybe I'll try and summarise the ensuing feedback.

Not sure where the questioning comes into this - it looks like a clear case of asked and answered! That some youths are ticking some big numbers DOESN'T surprise me, for exactly the reasons you mentioned!!

On the other hand it's another good training vs. technique debate in one of it's many guises 

[Nigel]

Fiend I agree that Andy seems to have answered his own question pretty well.

On the other hand it's another good training vs. technique debate in one of it's many guises 

Agreed. On that theme I feel I have to pass comment in response to JB passing wind:

Some of this stuff is dynamite Andy

I tackle a  problem a  move at a time whereas I see young guys slap there way up stuff in a  kind of kartwheel motion (eg. Ondra).

Its actually a pretty small area of the sport these youths are excelling at - steep with small holds. I think its fair to say they are not generally good all-round climbers.

Yeah Ondra defo ain't an all rounder. Climbing La rambla 40 metres and Action Directe 10 Metres and doing dreamtime in 4 hours and Shadowfax in 30 minutes is well specific.

Adam I think its probably accurate to say that they aren't good all-round climbers, but I don't think its fair. Why? Well, because we are talking specifically about "young guys". Your definition of a "good all-round climber" = good at sport, trad, alpine, ice, big wall, bouldering....etc. How the fuck does a sub-18 year old have time to reach the top level at all of this? They aren't good at this stuff because in most cases, they haven't even tried it! Maybe by age 25 they'll have ticked all these boxes. This argument seems especially unfair with respect to Ondra. The kid is 15. 15! And he has done 40+ 8c+'s and onsighted several 8b+'s. How can you expect him to climb El Cap, be an Alpine wad, ice wad, etc.?

The other point is that they probably don't even want to do all this.

[Jim]

as usual nige is the hammer and this thread is the nail

[unclesomebody]

as usual nige is the hammer and this thread is the nail

 

wtf? "As usual"? Is that what Nige tells you when he comes over?   "Look Jim, I'm the hammer, and you're the nail"...

[dave]

is it because nige's got the fly moves and verbal dexterity of MC Hammer, and Jim's a bit of a Spender (Whats £2.50 a month? nothing).

[stevie haston]

hello this is a great question. Some peole have already answered it but the thread is getting a bit confused. Young climbers seem to be improvibng for a number of reasons, more surport from parents(very noticeable in  USA),more surport from general community, comps are very respectable in many places and not ridiculed, training is much more understood, facilities are much more suited to modern hard bouldering(ultra steep reasonable holds), kids heal quicker and improve quicker, fantastic ability to learn and best natural testesterone. Creatine is helpining the elite and finally there is also abit of funny grading going on. Light body wieght due to bones not catching up yet and some preety interesting body shapes in general.Some of these things have been seen before but not altogether or so frequently. Look at the photo of  Benidict Moon in the power of Climbing book and you will see a great climber light strong,exellent body tension result Hubble, how many routes have Font 8b on them today 17 years later? Second ascent of Hubble The great Malc, incredibly light, was he disimilar from todays boulderer? If you add only a few percent of performace and some dodgy grades to a few of the old lads you come to todays standard(maybe).
Onda is a brilliant climber, nurtured by surportive parents, has his own little circuits and gets a great deal of other surport, I imagine he could do a one day ascent of Rapsody as could Paxi. If they turned there hand to other forms of climbing I am sure they would be brill, ice climbing is slightly diferent in that you need to be used to a new medium, ice is a bit like loose rock not every body has the mental skills  to deel with it.
Anyway as an aside dont believe every thing you hear. Onda is having trouble with Punt X a route of Alex Chabot,clearly much harder than Action D. Saw Monsieur Chabot climb the other, a rare combination of power and stamina.
Great topic, am continually stoked to see youngsters sorting things. Yours Stevie Haston.     

[Houdini]

# modern walls

# modern rubber / shoe design

# modern sports science (inc. biochemistry, nutritional science)

# low-cost carriers

# richer parents / better sponsorship opportunities

yours, Lord Lucan

[Johnny Brown]

Adam I think its probably accurate to say that they aren't good all-round climbers, but I don't think its fair. Why? Well, because we are talking specifically about "young guys". Your definition of a "good all-round climber" = good at sport, trad, alpine, ice, big wall, bouldering....etc. How the fuck does a sub-18 year old have time to reach the top level at all of this?

As ever the knickers-in-a-twist-he's-dissing-a-hero gang have missed the point.
Which was not that Ondra has to tick all the boxes before he earns my respect. He has that.

The point was, young kids are not excelling in these other disciplines. Of course there is young talent doing well in these other areas, but not to the same extreme. Colin Haley is 23, for example, and whilst his CV is fantastic is not quite redefining.

This would seem to support Andy's initial suggestion that physiological factors are taking over in one area of the sport and it may be headed in a similar direction to gymnastics.

Young guys are pretty much at the top in the sport which is not so in other sports (except female gymnastics).
These guys are skinny and have v.little muscle and if put in gym would have little power (even relative to there weight) vs older guys.
This is totally in contrast to 10+ years ago.

As Stevie has pointed out, this doesn't seem that new a phenomenon.

previous discussions have noted that being overly flexible can be a hindrance

Really? How so? I must have missed these discussions.

and can put you at greater risk of injury if you're not strong enough to support the increased range of motion available to you.

Perhaps. And if you are strong enough? How can it be anything but good? What drivel.

[Paul B]

Is that opinion formed from reading anything on the subject? I'm done.

[Johnny Brown]

Hit me with some reading then.

I'll stick with the echoes of a thousand whinging stiff guys still stood on the pad, moaning 'I can't get my foot up there.' Never once has any one said 'I can't do it, it's too easy to reach the holds'

[richdraws]

"there is a tradeoff between flexibility and stability. As you get "looser" or more limber in a particular joint, less support is given to the joint by its surrounding muscles. Excessive flexibility can be just as bad as not enough because both increase your risk of injury."

This however is not going to be the case for the majority of athletes (or indeed climbers), the use for which the flexibility is needed pretty much always coincides with a need for strength. You cant heel hook without some hamstring/gastrocnemius strength, no matter how flexibile.

Its only my opinion but I believe there is a strong link between my flexibility from gymnastics as a kid and my decent amount of leg strength.

[Johnny Brown]

In a closely fought battle 21-year old Ned Feehally topped the final problem to become the youngest climber to win the senior male category of the national bouldering championships.

[Bonjoy]

 Ned, now there's a prime example of a young climber who is both beastly strong and bendy as a bendy thing.

[Paul B]

This however is not going to be the case for the majority of athletes (or indeed climbers), the use for which the flexibility is needed pretty much always coincides with a need for strength. You cant heel hook without some hamstring/gastrocnemius strength, no matter how flexibile.

You can try though. The same as if you were doing a hard press move.

[Paz]

Who's that youth who did that direct on Braille Trial too?  Both power and technique camps would probably claim him as one of their own.  I want him on my team anyway - "The next bit looks bold, steep, blind, slappy and is probably capped off by a hideous mantel.  I think I'l belay here, your lead youth".  Probably out getting wasted after his GCSEs now, more power to him. 

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think the power camps would have much call there, by his own admission not a strong boulderer yet. Shouldn't be long though, saw him last night finishing off 500+ routes in a day.