[Johnny Brown]

a bad sport route is just as worthless as a bad trad route.

Not quite. An unpopular trad route effectively disappears as soon as the chalk washes away. A sport route has a permanent physical presence that is impossible to reverse.

The quarries may be a good place for experimentation but trends inevitably spread. Folk should be wary of an attitude that in a quarry, anything goes. Respect for the rock as a precious and limited resource is something that needs to be nurtured within the community.

[Pantontino]

a bad sport route is just as worthless as a bad trad route.

Not quite. An unpopular trad route effectively disappears as soon as the chalk washes away. A sport route has a permanent physical presence that is impossible to reverse.

The quarries may be a good place for experimentation but trends inevitably spread. Folk should be wary of an attitude that in a quarry, anything goes. Respect for the rock as a precious and limited resource is something that needs to be nurtured within the community.

Come on JB, get real! Trad routes get cleaned, have pegs or threads placed upon them, bear the scars of over used gear placements, polish etc - none of these things disappear after a rain shower.

Experimentation in the quarries dates back to the early 80s - if what you say is true (i.e. that trends inevitably spread), then the rest of the North Wales crags would have been heavily chipped and bolted over the last 25 years. As you know that did not happen.

[dave]

Not quite. An unpopular trad route effectively disappears as soon as the chalk washes away. A sport route has a permanent physical presence that is impossible to reverse.

shit trad routes which get put up, have half a dozen ascents by the FA's mates in a haze of frenzied development then left to compost don't get pollished and gearwarn though, which is I believe what JB was refering to.

[Pantontino]

They could have rusty pegs on them, and still show evidence of heavy cleaning. My point is that it is not as b/w as JB is suggesting. A de-geared sport route, if done well (old bolt holes neatly filled etc) need not be an eye sore.

[Johnny Brown]

Come on JB, get real! Trad routes get cleaned, have pegs or threads placed upon them, bear the scars of over used gear placements, polish etc - none of these things disappear after a rain shower.

We were talking about unpopular, crap trad routes that may never see a repeat weren't we? In which case none of the above is true and my point stands.

They could have rusty pegs on them, and still show evidence of heavy cleaning. My point is that it is not as b/w as JB is suggesting. A de-geared sport route, if done well (old bolt holes neatly filled etc) need not be an eye sore.

They could have yes, but its the exception. The difference is the sport route has to be de-geared - more work than putting it in, and still the rock is scarred even if it isn't an eyesore.  'Evidence of heavy cleaning' is a moot point, in my experience it is more likely on a sport route. All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of leaving as little impact as possible.

In terms of the spread, what I meant was we are revisiting the bolt debate here and elsewhere with the line of division having moved firmly towards bolts in the intervening years. In the eighties and nineties a big reason bolts were placed sparingly was to retained some adventure and hence avoid being chopped. We all know how Joe Brown's two pegs per pitch rule was adopted. (And yes I know they were skint).

That is no longer the case, those who talked about the thin end of the wedge are seeing it being driven in. Bolts are now accepted. We have monthly threads on UKC about the installation of ab stations in the pass. They already exist in the lakes.

I see allowing 'sub-prime' areas of rock to be bolted as a bad precedent. As is pointed out above, these may become more popular than the trad routes around them. I worry this will create more and more climbers who don't appreciate trad and feel dictated to by an increasingly small, outdated moral minority. From UKC its obvious most climbers don't understand that the act of drilling is fundamentally at odds with the act of climbing a cliff using your own skill and what the rock offers. Bolting needs to be taken seriously, just reserving the best for trad and throwing the rest to the bolters is not a wise route forward.

[Paz]

It seems the slate scene isn't as united as you would have us believe Simon. 

Before you get carried away with yourself Paz - we were discussing the situation of last year. Things have changed of late and I know that in the last month or two a few people have questioned the quality of some of the new routes.

OK then I won't.  If the above and:

That statement is true. I never met a single person at the crag who thought the new wave of sport routes or the re-equipping program was a bad thing. There were hundreds of climbers turning up in the quarries at this time. It seemed very obvious to me that the online furore was not reflected on the ground.

are both observations from different points in time that explains the apparent contradiction, and we can still assume you've got your finger on the pulse.  But you've still just seemed a little keen to dismiss anyone who speaks their mind online who you disagree with just because they've not had chance to climb at Llanberis when you were there, unless I've got that wrong.  And I've seen the results of other people assuming that because they never see them at the crag but see everyone else that they're never there - when they had 9-5 jobs and were only getting out at the weekends and evenings and the person they were on about was getting up early during the week.  Even when I bumped into them one christmas, but I'm a nobody and easier to ignore in real life.  I digress, I'm just saying don't be quick to rely on this line of reasoning.  It's not like English people with fast cars historically had nothing to do with the development of climbing in North Wales, so I don't see why we should automatically grant the locals carte blanche.  And that yeah maybe me and others you mention did come out with a lot of `vitriol', but now I for one am sort of sitting back thinking, well I hate to say I told you so...

[Pantontino]

All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of leaving as little impact as possible.

In the eighties and nineties a big reason bolts were placed sparingly was to retained some adventure and hence avoid being chopped. We all know how Joe Brown's two pegs per pitch rule was adopted. (And yes I know they were skint).

I see allowing 'sub-prime' areas of rock to be bolted as a bad precedent.

You may have impeccable ethics when it comes to trad routes, but lots of people don't. The welsh trad crags are peppered with rusting pegs.

Not sure about the 80s/90s thing - sport bolting was fully accepted by the mid/late 80s.

I see bolting 'sub-prime' areas of rock as a useful release of a hidden climbing resource.

As for bolt belays - I clipped an ancient bolt belay on top of Lion Rock the other day when I was climbing with my son. Made me chuckle when I thought of all the fuss 10 years back when one of the centres put bolt belays in at the top of the nearby Craig yr Undeb (Yellow Walls). At the time there was much harrumphing and they were duly ripped out, but no-one noticed the existing bolt just across the way. It's not hidden away either - just sat there on top of the cliff in a very obvious and convenient position.

What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that I don't think there is anything to worry about. The new guide will big up the great trad routes in the quarries, whilst also bigging up the best sport routes. The current Welsh role models (Pete and Caff) are just as keen on bold trad as they are on hard sport - a 16 year old kid is likely to try and emulate them, rather than be sucked into a sport only path. Actually they might try and become the next CJD or Nodder - but where's the harm in that, the only place Nodder uses a drill is on the Mill board.

[Pantontino]

And that yeah maybe me and others you mention did come out with a lot of `vitriol', but now I for one am sort of sitting back thinking, well I hate to say I told you so...

I think you should wait and see how this thing unfolds first.

[Paz]

All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of leaving as little impact as possible.

All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of doing as little work as possible.  My few sport ones too (for which someone else did most of the work).

That is no longer the case, those who talked about the thin end of the wedge are seeing it being driven in. Bolts are now accepted. We have monthly threads on UKC about the installation of ab stations in the pass. They already exist in the lakes.

I see allowing 'sub-prime' areas of rock to be bolted as a bad precedent. As is pointed out above, these may become more popular than the trad routes around them.

I'm worried that you'll get a lot of so called `trad' routes that are sport climbers idealised ideas of what a trad route should be, rather than a more natural challenge that noone's tinkered with.  I think Fiend started it off with a hypothetical question about given three similar relatively gear less lines how do you decide whther to make them into a F4, a runout VS or a HVS solo.  Well the results of the experiment are in - when you get 3 such adjacent routes sharing a lower off what happens is people warm up on the F4, at best pre clip the bolt on the Vs and top rope the HVS to death.  So on a given crag you may as well bolt them all or have them all run out or all solos. 

Simon mentioned Cheddar ages ago, when that's a special case that's been equipped to enable more warm weather access, for everyone, i.e. for you lot as well.  Incidentally on the South side Intructor's aren';t permitted to use the cliffs with orgnaised groups at least, or probably all non Rocksport commercial use is banned, I forget (only 1 cliff on it's suitable anyway, if that).  You just don't get the absolute hoards of tourists infesting the Slate Quarries putting themselves at risk like you do in the (other) gorge (they're all taking the train up Snowdon instead).  At Cheddar now I'm reasonably content on a restored trad route on a mixed cliff to say, `well the decision's been made for me' and `the reason there's no bolt there is either cos there's a runner or because the climbing's easy enough for the run out to be tolerable' and just go for it, though I've not really done much of the hard bold trad routes yet, so for the moment this is just all talk.  I know I'm not going to be getting on a horror show like how it was in the old days. 

From UKC its obvious most climbers don't understand that the act of drilling is fundamentally at odds with the act of climbing a cliff using your own skill and what the rock offers.

That's not what I read into it.  The majority of us easily understand the difference. A growing minority of people new to the sport might think like that.  I think most've us've just got bored of bolting debates and the bright young things spilling out of the climbing walls haven't read all the threads from years ago to get up to speed, so when they start yet another one - they're just asking stupid questions anyway which is the best way to learn - a lot of us just ignore them or take the piss, and it's a bit distracting from anyone who does give a sensible definitive answer, and your youngling under attack just ends up even more entrenched in their own opinion, even when it's plainly wrong. 

Wait and see what happens <paraphrased Pantontino's words>

Sure thing, will do.  I actually don't have a great problem with loads and loads of shit sort routes.  Becuase I have lower standards than some people and I'll climb a shit sport route anyway (I mean, it's shit, but it's not as shit as going for a run or real exercise, it's still climbing), so the other part of me's going `cool, all the more for me to go at then'.  Looking forwards to your guidebook(s) too, by the way, they're looking good.

[Will Hunt]

I cant say that I'm a big fan of all these new sport routes that are being put up. Thats why I generally dont climb them (although theres a couple of gems just above Looning the Tube like Orangutan Overhang which is a diamond).

I do feel though that there is a certain degree of a "I'll bolt anything to get my name in the guidebook" attitude though which is a shame. If I was putting up a route I bloody well wouldn't want it to be a generic offering that was exactly the same as the characterless clip up next door. I would want to create a route that would be remembered by those who climbed it and provided an intense experience for someone climbing at that grade. But thats OK because its not my name that has to sit next to some forgettable rubbish.  This is why I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet and is Fr 6c/7a ish so I could make it into a cracking designer danger low E grade route. Si, if you have any ideas on areas to look then please let me know!

Also, I loved Whizz Bang! Found it very satisfying and a little burly (I'm not that strong).

[Johnny Brown]

sport bolting was fully accepted by the mid/late 80s.

Hardly. The first sport route in the peak was put up in 1983, and the bolts were out and back in several times over the next few years. When did Frankie get bolted?

By the early nineties sport bolting was accepted on certain areas of certain crags, and above certain grades.

Mid-grade sport wasn't accepted until the late nineties, harpur hill was mid nineties remember, you could hardly call that accepted.

[Jaspersharpe]

Horseshoe had some uncontroversial mid grade sport stuff mid 80's didn't it? Sport bolting isn't "fully accepted" now, if you're going to state specific cases, or this discussion wouldn't be happening. Shirley?

[Pantontino]

sport bolting was fully accepted by the mid/late 80s.

Hardly. The first sport route in the peak was put up in 1983, and the bolts were out and back in several times over the next few years. When did Frankie get bolted?

By the early nineties sport bolting was accepted on certain areas of certain crags, and above certain grades.

Mid-grade sport wasn't accepted until the late nineties, harpur hill was mid nineties remember, you could hardly call that accepted.

83 is early/mid 80s. As I pointed out on that 'Moffatt/Dawes - who is god?' thread a while back a lot of big changes occurred between 83 and 86. Them was revolutionary times.

Statement of Youth 84, Malham Catwalk - 86 (in fact psuedo clip ups existed here earlier - as old aid climbs were freed by Fawcett and Gawthorpe)

Frankie was an exception.

Since when was Harpur Hill the first mid grade sport venue - what about Pen Trwyn, Horseshoe? Both of which were established in the mid 80s.

Your original post suggested that sport climbing did not become accepted until the noughties - this is nonsense. The ethical shift occurred 15 years earlier.

[Pantontino]

This is why I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet and is Fr 6c/7a ish so I could make it into a cracking designer danger low E grade route. Si, if you have any ideas on areas to look then please let me know!

Will, F6c/7a, plus a ground sweeping fall potential would not be a low grade extreme - it might even be E6!

I know of a few choice lines, but I'm hardly going to let them go. Just go for a trek around, particularly in the less visited areas and you will soon find something. There is an enormous amount of rock in the quarries. If you do make a designer danger route (or even if you make a clip up), make sure you give it a thorough cleaning and remember slate is not always the most trustworthy medium; holds can snap unexpectedly.

[Pantontino]

Sport bolting isn't "fully accepted" now, if you're going to state specific cases, or this discussion wouldn't be happening. Shirley?

I meant fully accepted at specific venues.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yes, I was actually agreeing with you. 

My point was that if you're going to state specific cases (i.e. Harpur Hill) then of course you can move the time at which sport bolting is fully accepted up to never.

I realise it wasn't a very clear post. 

[Hells Bells]

i like the look of the possible cover at the start of the thread. thumbs up from me.
i'd be suprised to be shown a photo of either of the 8bs that i would prefer. i reckon corners make good images.

neil

[Paz]

I think Will was indulging in a bit of poetic license to big up the slate quarreies.  But he was also asking for it and I'm glad someone told him.

I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet

So am I, but I'm not ransacking snowdonia for one either.  I think a few of the people now accused of simply putting up shit new squeezed in sport routes as close to the car as possible, solely to immortalize their own knob jokes, might be interested in the gold mine of beautiful lines and routes too. 

[Will Hunt]

This is why I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet and is Fr 6c/7a ish so I could make it into a cracking designer danger low E grade route. Si, if you have any ideas on areas to look then please let me know!

Will, F6c/7a, plus a ground sweeping fall potential would not be a low grade extreme - it might even be E6!

I know of a few choice lines, but I'm hardly going to let them go. Just go for a trek around, particularly in the less visited areas and you will soon find something. There is an enormous amount of rock in the quarries. If you do make a designer danger route (or even if you make a clip up), make sure you give it a thorough cleaning and remember slate is not always the most trustworthy medium; holds can snap unexpectedly.

Cheers for the advice. Will bear it in mind if I ever find anything. Perhaps being a bit ambitious with the difficulty. In all honesty difficulty wouldn't really be an issue, quality would be more important. Cant wait for the guide, will make exploring further into Australia much easier.

[Houdini]

I cant say that I'm a big fan of all these new sport routes that are being put up. Thats why I generally dont climb them ...

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say: I don't climb 7c - 8b and therefore I've no clue how good or bad the best of these new sport routes are?

[Will Hunt]

Apols if I was unclear. I was talking more about the grid bolting that has gone on at Dali's and elsewhere rather than the more difficult ones. Obviously I aint got the skillz for them so I cant really put forward an opinion.