[Adam Lincoln]

Not the only one excited bout the Gogarth guido. Might be time to dust down the rack.... 

Just say the word!

[Fiend]

...a lot of words that are addressed to some "side" I'm not a part of...

You're arguing with the wrong person here, go argue with someone else who might actually be opposed to sport routes and re-equipping per se, not me.




Jasper, I realise it would be more socially acceptable to keep quiet and let one person put forward his summary of a debate I instigated, without anyone providing an alternative perspective. However I'm the wrong person for that sort of toeing the line too.

Bear in mind I had no intention whatsoever of raising any of these issues when I posted this thread. I was talking about an inspiring photo, that is all.



Edit: To further understanding I will say one more thing - my thread and subsequent postings *may* have received more hostility because I have had a grossly exaggerated and entirely undeserved reputation for being highly opinionated and argumentative about climbing issues. This issue was a rare occasion where I was NOT strongly opinionated nor judgemental about the matter (more concerned and curious), but it could be a case of "crying wolf" as it were, maybe.

[Pantontino]

You said you were pretty disgusted with me for abusing my position as a scene reporter to misrepresent what had happened. I made the following defence:

I've just looked through all my Climber mag North Wales scene reports for the last 12 months and the only thing I can find is the following reference to the new Dali's Hole sport routes:

"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."

That statement is true. I never met a single person at the crag who thought the new wave of sport routes or the re-equipping program was a bad thing. There were hundreds of climbers turning up in the quarries at this time. It seemed very obvious to me that the online furore was not reflected on the ground.

But you haven't answered.

Are you still disgusted? Or are you thinking that you've just accused me of doing something that I clearly didn't do? I can't remember what was written in Climb mag at the time (presumably by Mark) - maybe that is what you are referring to?

[Fiend]

But you haven't answered.

Are you still disgusted? Or are you thinking that you've just accused me of doing something that I clearly didn't do? I can't remember what was written in Climb mag at the time (presumably by Mark) - maybe that is what you are referring to?

Okay, to answer (I don't want to debate but equally I don't want to seem rude by ignoring questions).

(0. I said "using" not "abusing" your position.)

1. "a bit of a stir" would be what I crudely paraphrased as "some dissenting voices online", and what I was referring to as mis-representing the strength of feeling of the replies in the thread.

2. No I'm not still pretty disgusted now, I was at the time and I still don't like the way the debate went, but it's old news really.

3. Since that's what you wrote in Climber, then the other news report section which mentioned something about a majority of opinions in the debate, would be in Climb, and I regarded that as a more serious mis-representation - if I have remembered the gist of that news report mention correctly. If I haven't then of course I'll retract my mention of it.

[cider nut]

"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."

To be fair though, those at the crag probably would be more positive about the new sport routes, as they've likely gone there to climb them.  Those less convinced are possibly climbing elsewhere.

Like for like rebolting is a great thing IMO!  I'm not convinced that some people aren't getting retro fever though (argh, too many negatives in that sentence), for example see the post by callummonkey here: http://slate.wetpaint.com/thread/1059362/The+slab+below+Never+Never+Land

[Pantontino]

"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."

To be fair though, those at the crag probably would be more positive about the new sport routes, as they've likely gone there to climb them.  Those less convinced are possibly climbing elsewhere.

Like for like rebolting is a great thing IMO!  I'm not convinced that some people aren't getting retro fever though (argh, too many negatives in that sentence), for example see the post by callummonkey here: http://slate.wetpaint.com/thread/1059362/The+slab+below+Never+Never+Land

It wasn't just at the crag. I never heard any dissenting voices at any of the BMC Cymru meetings, or in the pub, in the cafe, etc. I'm not making this up. If there really was a strong anti-bolt feeling with regard to the quarries I think I would have at least heard the odd comment outside of the confines of an internet forum.

As for the discussion on the slate wiki - nothing wrong with talking about things. Using phrases like 'retro fever'  - you should get a job as a headline writer for a red top.

[Tommy G]

Internet forums never cease to create this sort of debate as I often think that things can become misconstrude.
There is also however, a definate feeling that people can promote their opinions against those of others, there is nothing wrong with that but when it gets top the point that people are insinuating that people miss report information and the like thats when it becomes silly.

The whole reason most people get into climbing is becuase of the freedom that brings. Instead of getting bogged down in the rules we have ethics to guide us. When putting up routes it is up to the the firt ascentionist to choose how they will complete the route. If you dont want to climb in that way then don't, there is no one stopping you!

The North Wales boys have been doing a great job of putting up great quality lines and also maintaining exisitng classics, for their own pleasure and also the good of the climbing community. If this is the way some people approach their efforts I can totally see why it pisses them off. It would anyone.

The new wave of creating technical desperates is great for climbing in the quarries and is a real injection back into a great style. This can only be a good thing and should be the focus of this thread rather than peoples narrow minded opinion of the scene over their. Especially when they are not activly involved in the re development programme! 

[Bonjoy]

For what it’s worth I think the bolting on the slate has been judged just right. The right routes have been retroed and the right routes re-equipped like for like. The end result is a vastly improved climbing area. I think this might not have happened had the bolters been shackled to a tortuous consensus gathering process prior to approaching every route. Re-equipping is hard enough work in itself.

[cider nut]

Pantontino - Cheers for that.  Hope you don't think I'm not making any accusations about the quarries, I'm just not convinced either way, yet - happy to keep an open mind.  I'm keeping a close eye on developments anyway.  I'll trust you that local voices are approving - I can't make it to the meetings in the evenings, bit far for me on a school night (the Peak ones are far enough away as it is).  Don't forget though - differing views may seem to come out online, but despite claims, the web's not all full of armchair climbers (as you know, being on here yourself), nobody's a purely virtual presence.  I've climbed in the slate quarries as many times as I've been to Froggatt, and nearly many times as I've been to Stanage Popular, and on top of that I've wandered round the place numerous time in the drizzle taking dozens of photos (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=21055) when I'm not inspired by sun hunting at Tremadog.  If you saw me there I'd say the same as I have on here, but you won't at the moment cos: 1) I've run out of inspiring routes within my ability (although I'm starting to eye a few things up again now - not the new clips ups mind), and 2) I'm wary of going and finding the place heaving, I liked the atmosphere of the place when it was deserted and eerie (and I'm far from a quarry fan!)

[cider nut]

p.s.  Regarding like for like replacement - I'll just re-state that this is all great!  And a related question - when I first climbed on slate, I was shown a few classic routes and told not to climb anything else, because they're tottering death traps with bolts that have been known to pull out (I soon learnt this wasn't always true).  Now the bolts are solid, and it's well known what's a death trap and what's not, are there any intentions to up the star count a bit for the new guide?  I used to only trust anything with a star, I now trust my own judgement by actually looking at the routes but some people are maybe not able to do that.  When talking about slate people often say "but is it safe?" and "what's the gear like?"  If some previously unstarred routes were now given a star, it might encourage more traffic and also spread the load off the classics if the place is getting busier.  For example Zambesi is unstarred but a perfectly amenable trad route, and I'm not sure but I don't think 'Looning The Tube' has a star either (I'm referring to the very old guide that did have stars of course, rather than the recent ones).

[Pantontino]

The intention is to star according to relative quality, same as is normal. There will be a reassessment though; we might even introduce minus stars for really naff eliminates or particularly rubbish routes (Wizz Bang in Bus Stop Quarry springs to mind as an obvious candidate for the crock of shite award).

I like stars in guidebooks, I think (along with action shots and pretty topos) they encourage people to explore and move away from the same old same old.

[slackline]

I like stars in guidebooks, I think (along with action shots and pretty topos) they encourage people to explore and move away from the same old same old.

But isn't there a balance?  Those "same old, same old" tend to be the starred routes, so how does one decide what to star in each guide?

" well this routes had three stars for 30 years now, I think the route over there should have them so it gets a bit more traffic."

I've no idea of the best solution, and also like stars.  I'll always try one or two starred routes in an area but am never averse to trying out unstarred ones.

[magpie]

I'm far more likely to want to climb a route after seeing a great picture of it then if it has stars, stars aren't really very inspiring in the same way a great photo is, are they?

[slackline]

I'm far more likely to want to climb a route after seeing a great picture of it then if it has stars, stars aren't really very inspiring in the same way a great photo is, are they?

But the fun (for me) comes from discovering what a climb is like for yourself.  Three-star routes tend to be great climbing in great positions, but then you also find yourself in some way-out places on non-starred routes.

Besides, there's only so much space/money available for pictures in guide books too, so stars are a way of compensating for not being able to have a picture of every route that might inspire people.

[cider nut]

slackline -

"But isn't there a balance?  Those "same old, same old" tend to be the starred routes, so how does one decide what to star in each guide?"
I agree.  Some routes should lose their stars when they no longer worth them, but it doesn't seem to happen.  For example this should get less than three, as anyone leading at that grade is going to slip off the polish and not want to go back to Stanage Popular for three years as they'll think that all 3 star routes there are the same <ahem>  http://new.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=908

Magpie -

As sl says - can't have photos of everything.

[magpie]

I know, it's my inherent laziness showing, I tend to flick through the books and only really concentrate on the pictures a lot of the time.    But then I'm also more likely to go and look in a guide after seeing a picture of a route online somewhere, I don't tend to read through books deciding on routes.  I'll blame it on an aural / visual learning thing rather than laziness to save face.    Horses for courses, I'm in no way saying that stars are a bad idea, just that not everyone bases route decisions on them.

[slackline]

Horses for courses, I'm in no way saying that stars are a bad idea, just that not everyone bases route decisions on them.

Missing out there, routes (generally) have stars for good reason.

[cider nut]

But then I'm also more likely to go and look in a guide after seeing a picture of a route online somewhere, I don't tend to read through books deciding on routes. 

I don't tend to read guidebooks either (unless I'm organising a trip that others are coming on), or choose routes based on descriptions.  I still find stars and descriptions are handy when you go to a crag though, either if don't know where to start or have done the route you went there for and still have time left.  If you're me, you'll pic the most hideous looking unstarred chimney and go and climb that ;o)

[Hoseyb]

Reply to Fiend: Hello sir, I have been trying to increase the non clip up content of the new routes, with Taith Mawr; the Twll Mawr Girdle being the biggest big up yet. However I have a baby on the way, so if you want to add to the non clip up wave, then mail me for some free projects... for instance there's the line of "Stannah to hell..", and some Joe Brown handed over.

Hose

[Fiend]

Reply to Fiend: Hello sir, I have been trying to increase the non clip up content of the new routes, with Taith Mawr; the Twll Mawr Girdle being the biggest big up yet. However I have a baby on the way, so if you want to add to the non clip up wave, then mail me for some free projects... for instance there's the line of "Stannah to hell..", and some Joe Brown handed over.

Cool, and congratulations (on the expected child not just on the new routes). Although I'm personally more likely to go for the friendly sport routes rather than whatever detatched chimney flake car jack horrors you've found .

[Fiend]

The intention is to star according to relative quality, same as is normal. There will be a reassessment though; we might even introduce minus stars for really naff eliminates or particularly rubbish routes (Wizz Bang in Bus Stop Quarry springs to mind as an obvious candidate for the crock of shite award).

I like stars in guidebooks, I think (along with action shots and pretty topos) they encourage people to explore and move away from the same old same old.

Excellent, glad to hear it, and I agree entirely (BTW, I didn't buy the recent Tremadog guide specifically because it didn't have star ratings thus not giving a convenient guide to relative route quality).

I also agree with your reasoning (that reasoning being evident in NWB guide in particular - I noticed plenty of encouragement for people to explore new areas in that), which goes along with a reassessment and according stars for pure quality not just convenience / fame / popularity etc.

P.S. For crap routes, wouldn't the black spot cover them??

Glad this thread is back on track now, phew!!

[Johnny Brown]

http://new.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=311897

[Fiend]

I am, for once, actually lost for words.

[Paz]

I still think someone should've raised the point about instructors not being the best people to put up new sport routes, but clearly I couldn't have chosen a less apt example in mark. 

It seems the slate scene isn't as united as you would have us believe Simon. 

[Pantontino]

It seems the slate scene isn't as united as you would have us believe Simon. 

Before you get carried away with yourself Paz - we were discussing the situation of last year. Things have changed of late and I know that in the last month or two a few people have questioned the quality of some of the new routes. My view as guidebook editor is to not judge too harshly until I've actually been and experienced some of these new creations. After all, some routes look appealing, but climb very badly (remember Wizz - Bang), and others look rubbish, but climb well.

I certainly won't be condemning out of hand the people who have put up these routes until I've checked out exactly what they have done, and I don't think anybody else should either.

And I absolutely do not believe that bolts are 'bad' by default. A good quality sport route in the quarries is just as legitimate as a good quality trad route, and on the flipside, a bad sport route is just as worthless as a bad trad route. The only point when I would object to a new sport route was if it had a seriously detrimental effect upon a good quality neighbouring route. If that was the case then I would go and talk to the person who put up the new line. I guess it all depends what is at stake - if a classic route has been ruined - then fair enough the bolts should come out, but if we are just talking about a bit of overcrowding, I don't think I'm going to lose much sleep over it.

And everybody should remember, before high horses are mounted, that the quarries have always been, and will always be a place of experimentation. Sometimes experiments work, sometimes they don't.