[Fiend]

Can it please have Ray Wood's (?) b/w photo of Redhead on Raped By Affection from And One For the Crow as the front cover.

Ta,
Fiend.

[Will Hunt]

And can we have it soon please?
Word on the street is that the guide is being postponed so the wads can all finish their projects before going to print!

[Pantontino]

Fiend, I'm afraid I'll have to say no to your suggestion. It's a definitive guide and thus in one sense a historical document/record of the era. Therefore it should have an image on the front cover that reflects the latest wave of development. Fair enough if there hadn't been much happening on slate in recent times a classic image would be appropriate, but as I'm sure you're aware there has been a huge amount of new route activity in the last 2 years.

Right now this is the strongest candidate:



Jack Gelderd's shot of Pete Robins on his new route, Tamborine Man F8a in California.

Will: the main reason the guide has not been published yet is because we're still tussling with the Gogarth North guide (which I did promise would be out in June!). As soon as that is sent off to the printer, we'll be switching all resources to the North Wales Slate guide.

[dave]

we're still tussling with the Gogarth North guide (which I did promise would be out in June!).

you've still got 14 hours to get it done. pull the finger out.

[Pantontino]

Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.

[dave]

You don't need a blonde and an helicopter, you need a montage.

"we have to make you a complete gogarth guide in very little time,... I think i know exactly what we need...."

[Adam Lincoln]

Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.

Have you got all pics for the guide Simon? I have quite a nice picture of Tom Briggs onsighting Wreath Of a Deadly Nightshade?

[Will Hunt]

Mark Reeves' classic picture of slate wad extraordinaire, Will Hunt, climbing Goose Creature is an obvious front cover.

[Pantontino]

Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.

Have you got all pics for the guide Simon? I have quite a nice picture of Tom Briggs onsighting Wreath Of a Deadly Nightshade?

Actually, I am considering doing a last minute switch on one of the North Stack action shots, so do send it over to me.

[Pantontino]

Mark Reeves' classic picture of slate wad extraordinaire, Will Hunt, climbing Goose Creature is an obvious front cover.

Since when has 'obvious' been the best option? 

[nathan wind]

Jack Gelderd's shot of Pete Robins on his new route, Tamborine Man F8a in California.

Liking the cover a lot Si.. never climbed on slate but it kinda sums up what I imagine it's like.. amazing lines, but dark, technical and thin!

[Adam Lincoln]

Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.

Have you got all pics for the guide Simon? I have quite a nice picture of Tom Briggs onsighting Wreath Of a Deadly Nightshade?

Actually, I am considering doing a last minute switch on one of the North Stack action shots, so do send it over to me.

Sent them to info@northwalesbouldering.com

[Pantontino]

Thanks Adam. I've emailed you.

[Fiend]

I don't have any photos of people and I certainly don't know what the word on the street is, but I am definitely looking forward to these two guides, Gogarth especially.

The mock-up cover posted, I think it's a good shot but I think there's better around. The ones of that new arete thing and of that new 8b wall thing, whatever they're called - they all have gothic names and seem to be done by Pete Macaffie or James Robbins or some combination anyway, I'm sure you know the photos I mean. Those sort of photos seemed to have stronger lines and more of a sense of places than the one posted above. Just 0.02 in case user feedback helps.

(On the subject of which, if a nu-skool sport photo is on the cover, it would be nice to have some very trad route as the next most prominent photo, to show the breadth of climbing in the quarries)

[Pantontino]

I don't have any photos of people and I certainly don't know what the word on the street is, but I am definitely looking forward to these two guides, Gogarth especially.

The mock-up cover posted, I think it's a good shot but I think there's better around. The ones of that new arete thing and of that new 8b wall thing, whatever they're called - they all have gothic names and seem to be done by Pete Macaffie or James Robbins or some combination anyway, I'm sure you know the photos I mean. Those sort of photos seemed to have stronger lines and more of a sense of places than the one posted above. Just 0.02 in case user feedback helps.

(On the subject of which, if a nu-skool sport photo is on the cover, it would be nice to have some very trad route as the next most prominent photo, to show the breadth of climbing in the quarries)

Ray has just taken some early morning shots of Pete on The New Slatesman, and they may end up being used yet.

My plan for the cover is as follows:

Front: hardcore state of the art shot (i.e. hard sport route)

Inside front cover spread: classic old school designer danger

Inside back cover spread: accessible state of the art shot (i.e. low grade sport)

I don't want to stir the mud up again, but it is worth pointing out that as far as I'm concerned those classic 80s routes are a very important aspect of the slate climbing, and despite the uninformed vitriol that pours forth from the keyboards of people like John Cox, none of the locals that I know have any intention of retroing them. 

[BenF]

I don't want to stir the mud up again, but it is worth pointing out that as far as I'm concerned those classic 80s routes are a very important aspect of the slate climbing, and despite the uninformed vitriol that pours forth from the keyboards of people like John Cox, none of the locals that I know have any intention of retroing them. 

I've obviously missed something (knowing nothing about any controversy or stirred up mud) but feel likewise about all those 80's classics.  It's for routes like those that most of us head to the slate, as far as I'm aware anyway.  Although admittedly I've yet to sample any of the newer bolted stuff - I think I've only done a handful of true clip (see what I did there?) ups on slate.

[Pantontino]

Ben, last year there were a series of protracted threads on UKC discussing the alleged retroing of classic designer danger slate routes. It all got rather heated. The truth is that one or two obscure routes were retroed, and a number of other obscure routes had the odd bolt added. None of the clasic routes were touched, beyond like for like replacements of 20 year old bolts. I was angry that people were sticking the boot into a group of people who had done an enormous amount of selfless re-equipping work. The fuss has died down of late, but I notice that people like John Cox continue to make uninformed and disparaging comments about Llanberis locals wrecking the quarries.

[Fiend]

Or:

Ben, last year there was, amongst others, one major thread on UKC started by myself, expressing concern over the trend towards newer slate routes being predominantly sport routes, and asking what the decision process is for (re/retro/new) bolting. It all started off rather civilised but unfortunately the activists involved tended to mistake questions for accusations, and respond aggressively by dismissing those concerned about slate as being "against" their bolting efforts, thus spawning some heated and personal arguments (admittedly with a couple of other people (Paz) provoking them). The truth is....hard to find as the activists were reluctant to discuss fact/figures nor how bolting decisions were made, but eventually HoseyB did post some route stats, and the vague feeling of bolting decisions seemed to be "new routers do whatever they like".

I was pretty disappointed that otherwise respectable people responded to questions with disparaging insults. E.g. an initial post containing lines like "Whilst I appreciate and respect the efforts put into like-for-like bolting and rationalising some of the more abstract bolting choices of the past," followed by asking how consense was achieved, was responded to with comments like "an outcry by narrow-minded negative climbers", "what often seems like petty and ungrateful armchair sniping", and "this peurile thread".

Thus fuss has died down of late, BUT I noticed later that year in both Climb and Climber, the online debate was completely mis-represented in new route reports. In one magazine the report said something like this "...people continue to enjoy these routes despite some dissenting voices online", which mis-represents the strength of feeling in the thread, and in another something like "...there was some online discussion but the majority were in favour of the new sport routes" which is simply a lie as it's clear in the discussion that at the very least there's equal numbers on each 'side', but more likely (without going through post by post, but the very fact that my simple question spawned a 300 post debate rather than 30 replies saying "nah slate bolting is fine, end of story" is pertinent in itself) a majority in the online discussion who are concerned or against the new sport routes.

(I wasn't sure to mention the last issue now, but I still regret that I didn't post about it at the time as I was pretty disgusted with the new routes section writers using their position in the magazine to gloss over and falsify the debate and questions raised there-in - and I'd regret if I didn't mention it this time.)

P.S. Just in case I am "painted" as being on "side", I am not on any sides about this sort of issue. I'm not pro-bolt nor anti-bolt, I'm neutral. Pro-balance, if you like. Along with pro-consensus and pro-fair-representation, hence this post.

[BenF]

Sorry, before anyone thinks I was stirring I really didn't mean to restart something with my previous comments, I honestly had no idea of this argument.  Thanks to you both for the summaries though.  I'll continue to enjoy the scary solo/trad/bolt mixtures that I've always enjoyed on slate and seek out some of the newer sport style routes too.  If its just a case of replacing old bolts like for like on the older stuff and some new sport routes being added to an area where there are already plenty of bolts and indeed clip ups, then what's the issue?  It's great to see the quarries popular again (for locals and visitors alike) after a fair few years of being fairly empty of climbers.  That people are back in there climbing both older and newer style routes can only be good I think.

[galpinos]

Simon,

When I think of the slate quarries I think of super long runouts above bolts, scary trad or a combo of the 2. Is most of the new stuff sport (therefore causing you to pick the photo you've chosen)?

On the breifly toched on topic of the Gogarth guide, can't wait to get my hands on it. Went to Gogarth for the first time on Saturday and loved it.

[Jaspersharpe]

You bloody trouble maker Fiend. 

[Pantontino]

Or:

Ben, last year there was, amongst others, one major thread on UKC started by myself, expressing concern over the trend towards newer slate routes being predominantly sport routes, and asking what the decision process is for (re/retro/new) bolting. It all started off rather civilised but unfortunately the activists involved tended to mistake questions for accusations, and respond aggressively by dismissing those concerned about slate as being "against" their bolting efforts, thus spawning some heated and personal arguments (admittedly with a couple of other people (Paz) provoking them). The truth is....hard to find as the activists were reluctant to discuss fact/figures nor how bolting decisions were made, but eventually HoseyB did post some route stats, and the vague feeling of bolting decisions seemed to be "new routers do whatever they like".

I was pretty disappointed that otherwise respectable people responded to questions with disparaging insults. E.g. an initial post containing lines like "Whilst I appreciate and respect the efforts put into like-for-like bolting and rationalising some of the more abstract bolting choices of the past," followed by asking how consense was achieved, was responded to with comments like "an outcry by narrow-minded negative climbers", "what often seems like petty and ungrateful armchair sniping", and "this peurile thread".

Thus fuss has died down of late, BUT I noticed later that year in both Climb and Climber, the online debate was completely mis-represented in new route reports. In one magazine the report said something like this "...people continue to enjoy these routes despite some dissenting voices online", which mis-represents the strength of feeling in the thread, and in another something like "...there was some online discussion but the majority were in favour of the new sport routes" which is simply a lie as it's clear in the discussion that at the very least there's equal numbers on each 'side', but more likely (without going through post by post, but the very fact that my simple question spawned a 300 post debate rather than 30 replies saying "nah slate bolting is fine, end of story" is pertinent in itself) a majority in the online discussion who are concerned or against the new sport routes.

(I wasn't sure to mention the last issue now, but I still regret that I didn't post about it at the time as I was pretty disgusted with the new routes section writers using their position in the magazine to gloss over and falsify the debate and questions raised there-in - and I'd regret if I didn't mention it this time.)

P.S. Just in case I am "painted" as being on "side", I am not on any sides about this sort of issue. I'm not pro-bolt nor anti-bolt, I'm neutral. Pro-balance, if you like. Along with pro-consensus and pro-fair-representation, hence this post.

I've just looked through all my Climber mag North Wales scene reports for the last 12 months and the only thing I can find is the following reference to the new Dali's Hole sport routes:

"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."

That statement is true. I never met a single person at the crag who thought the new wave of sport routes or the re-equipping program was a bad thing. There were hundreds of climbers turning up in the quarries at this time. It seemed very obvious to me that the online furore was not reflected on the ground.

Fiend, throughout this whole affair you have failed to grasp the simple concept at the core of new route development. It is a creative process and one in which the first ascensionist makes decisions based upon what s/he thinks will make the best route. I happen to think that most of the new routes have been equipped well, producing good routes. The nature of much of the unclimbed rock in the quarries suits sport routes.

Anybody is free to go up there and establish designer danger routes if they want. Nobody is stopping them. They are also free to go and de-bolt anything that think is out of character or just plain crap. There has always been a tradition of experimentation in the quarries; rules have been bent, boundaries tested. Many of the old school classics were heavily chipped or altered. It's a credit to JR and his cronies that they did a good job.

But they weren't the only ones who did a good job - Nick Harms for example produced a series of classic sport routes. You may choose to dismiss these, but for a lot of people who get/got involved in slate his contribution was/is just as important as those who put up the classic runouts on Rainbow Slab.

If you want to try and understand the anger of the local activists (and I think you should) go and spend a day or two doing some re-equipping work. I've done it and it is hard and unpleasant work. After an afternoon or two hanging on an ab rope drilling I fully understood why Mark Reeves' had become so disillusioned and pissed off.

People have been predicting the downfall of British traditional climbing for decades now and still hasn't happened. I don't believe it ever will. It is just a load of knee jerk reactionary nonsense. And for the record the quarries were utterly deserted before the re-equipping campaign started.

[Pantontino]

Simon,

When I think of the slate quarries I think of super long runouts above bolts, scary trad or a combo of the 2. Is most of the new stuff sport (therefore causing you to pick the photo you've chosen)?

Most of the new routes (but not all) are clip ups. That said, some of them are pretty spicy and involve some hair raising runouts.

[magpie]

Genuine question; if people are bothered that the majority (I don't know if it is the majority or not) of new routes are bolted rather than put up as trad routes couldn't they just climb them and not use the bolts, or use only the bolts they felt were essential to protect the route?  I might be completely missing the point (again)?

Mainly, I am just excited about the new Gogarth book 

[Kingy]

Nice idea but unfortunately but I think it changes the trad experience completely having bolts ready to clip 'just in case' even if you don't need 'em. the sense of commitment on runouts would be lost for example.

Not the only one excited bout the Gogarth guido. Might be time to dust down the rack....