[carefultorque]

There's something I don't understand and would like some help with please.

I want to put more load through the parts that count when I'm bouldering on plastic.  But I'm having problems working out what is stopping me.

I have reasonable arm-strength (can hold footless one-arm 90 degree lock for a second each side), and can crimp okay, hang and dyamically latch small holds.

But still I find:

1) difficulty doing problems longer than 2-4 moves on the 50 degree wall

2) difficulty finding suitable 'threshold' boulder problems.  V2 is a grade I can easily do 4 x 4's on.  V3+ is a grade I can onsight with good control indoors. So I ought to be able to benefit from threshold bouldering on the odd V6s.   Here I'm often blown by limitations in my movement repertoire but can latch holds and move between them somehow or other.

Any other ideas?

I'm never going to be the best boulderer but we all like to release our maximum potential, right?

[Duma]

Sounds like you need to do some core work if you're not having trouble with the holds. Assisted front levers? Sure there are others with more SCIENCE to quote at you.

[Paul B]

Volume is probably the answer (and i'm not talking about those akward traingles that try to remove your nipple on a regular basis) so this might not be applicable but maybe undertake the patented unclesomebody strength based assessment, post up the results and go from there?

How many one armers per arm?
How many pull ups on jugs?
How many pulls ups on a small rung?
What is the smallest hold you can hang one arm open or 3 fingers?
What can you campus at the moment?
Can you do front levers at the moment? if so, for how long?
What weight can you load onto yourself and still do a pull up on a small rung?

I'm guessing from your lock strength theres going to be a whole lot of things you can work on, whether or not they're the best use of your time is another question.
What's making you fall off on those steep problems? wildly bicycling feet?

[carefultorque]

I'm guessing from your lock strength theres going to be a whole lot of things you can work on, whether or not they're the best use of your time is another question.
What's making you fall off on those steep problems? wildly bicycling feet?

Well, I just don't know what's making me fall off. It's not the foot thing.  I've got reasonable core stability and my feet don't tend to pop.  That could always be better, but it's not the key thing here.  I can remove one and place it back where I want it. 

It's just that I  tend to end up in an position where I'm locked-off between moves without being able to make the move.  Then I'll cheat, latch the hold and see what's stopping me.   That's where I go round in circles.  I can hold myself on the target hold. I can latch the hold.  Just can't move off the previous one, often enough.

I will take the Uncle strength assessment.  But I can tell ya now, be prepared to be underwhelmed.

[Jim]

How many pull-ups can you do?

Also as paul suggested, go climbing a lot more, its going to be more benaficial than speciafic training when climbing at this level. Remember to have the odd rest day here and there (Zod's beard take note).

[carefultorque]

How many pull-ups can you do?

I don't do pull ups.  When I last tried, I could do 2 with 50% bodyweight attached, or 14 without.

[Jim]

I don't do pull ups.

There in lies the problem. Do some sets of pull ups every day for a week and you will see a massive improvement

[carefultorque]

I don't do pull ups.

There in lies the problem. Do some sets of pull ups every day for a week and you will see a massive improvement

Jim, thank you.  But before I go off and follow this advice, is there SCIENCE behind this claim?

[GCW]

is there SCIENCE behind this claim?

Possibly not, but there's LOGIC.

[carefultorque]

is there SCIENCE behind this claim?

Possibly not, but there's LOGIC.

Oh, all right then.  I'll go with that.  Weighted ones, presumably?

[Jim]

no because your trying to get some power endurance

[GCW]

Ever tried assisted one arm hangs/lowers/pulls?  Could be worth a go, eh?

[account_inactive]

It's hard to say what your weakness is without seeing you climb, but consider..........

What is letting you down on steeper angles?  Holding on, moving between the holds, keeping your feet on, PE or technique to get to the top?

Then consider..........

Fingerboard exercises, locking exercises (bar/campus), core or PE training (4x4,Tabata, volume etc), technique drills

Hope this helps you figure it out

[abarro81]

Sounds like you might be struggling to initiate the movements? (That's my interpretation of what you said, correct me if I'm wrong)
Two thoughts:
-technique shizzle, initiating with legs/anything else good climbers do
- lack of power (rather than static strength) - do some campussing or summat instead of lock work?
{Disclaimer: most people on here know more than me about training/being strong than me, so probably best to take their word for it if they contradict me.}
Other question: How long have you been climbing for?

[Paul B]

Fingerboard exercises, locking exercises (bar/campus), core or PE training (4x4,Tabata, volume etc), technique drills

Hope this helps you figure it out

Does tabata relate to climbing well, personally I just can't see it? What do you do in the high intensity sections: climb like a madman as per the squat variation that they tested...

[account_inactive]

Tabata didn't test squats AFAIK

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0145.htm

[carefultorque]

It's hard to say what your weakness is without seeing you climb, but consider..........

What is letting you down on steeper angles?  Holding on, moving between the holds, keeping your feet on, PE or technique to get to the top?


Hope this helps you figure it out

Thanks Dylan.  I just don't know what's stopping me.  But some ideas:

 1)I think I need to get my movement repertoire to the next level for starters.  There are movement subtleties, especially 'whole body climbing' awareness that I can see in action but fail to apply under pressure. Basics like inside and outside flagging at various angles of steepness are okay.

2) Not strong enough, but not clear where.  I'm beginning to think it's shoulder girdle.  Also can latch holds open handed but don't convert to a crimp quickly enough, because I can't.
I'd definitely choose 'moving between holds' from your list. 

What is Tabata?


Cheers

[carefultorque]

Sounds like you might be struggling to initiate the movements? (That's my interpretation of what you said, correct me if I'm wrong)
Two thoughts:
-technique shizzle, initiating with legs/anything else good climbers do
- lack of power (rather than static strength) - do some campussing or summat instead of lock work?
{Disclaimer: most people on here know more than me about training/being strong than me, so probably best to take their word for it if they contradict me.}
Other question: How long have you been climbing for?

Yup, that's definitely part of it.  I probably still move like an E3/E4 climber V3-4 punter and that's the extent of my movement repertoire,.  Sure I can pull moves harder than this but however strong I'm capable of getting, applying that is going to be the tricky thing.   When I watch climbers I know well who're in the V9 to Font 8A range, they do things that I simply can't envisage doing, like very powerful rockovers on the 50 degree wall. Okay so not realistic to emulate that at the same hold size, but you get what I'm saying.

[SA Chris]

You still don't say how long you have been at it for? I think getting on outdoor rock as much as possible and doing mileage across all rock types / styles / grades is required to build a decent base repertoire of technique/s.

[carefultorque]

Sounds like you might be struggling to initiate the movements? (That's my interpretation of what you said, correct me if I'm wrong)

I think that's right.

Oh, I should add I have a slight lardage problem.  That's to say, my lean mass was calculated last week as 74 kilgrammes.  I weigh 89, so lean weight plus 10% should be achievable= around 81 Kg.  That should make  a difference.  I know because I've worn a 10Kg weight belt before. 

Not easy to get down this athletic body composition in one's mid forties, but possible with dedication.  I think that'll push me two V grades without doing anything differently.

[Falling Down]

I probably still move like an E3/E4 climber

Nowt wrong with that. Most steady E3/E4 climbers I know have a great technique and movement. More so than some strong boys and girls...

[Paul B]

Tabata didn't test squats AFAIK

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0145.htm

you're correct its some chat waterbury variation that I read on figureathlete or something I think...I still can't see how you can relate it to climbing, you can't exactly spring on a board, so do you go from doing a fr5 circuit to doing your max boulder problem then back or something? still not quite seeing how it would work anyway thats an aside.

[carefultorque]

You still don't say how long you have been at it for? I think getting on outdoor rock as much as possible and doing mileage across all rock types / styles / grades is required to build a decent base repertoire of technique/s.

Absolutely right there.  Did five years, mostly routes on vertical limestone.  Onsight 6c, working 7a+ level.  Started a bit of bouldering to font 6a+.  Couple of trips to font, couple to grit. Not a huge amount of experience outside, all in all.
 
Then I hit an 8 year patch of injuries and serious health problems and did practically nothing - perhaps 10 days over that period.  One of the consequences was that I maxxed out at nearly 16 stone on a middleweight frame and 181 centimetres height.  So I've dealt with the worst part of that now - back to 90 Kg. 

I've been climbing again regularly since mid feb for the first time in 8 years.   So overall, I'm really a climber with 5 years experience, nothing like 13.

[webbo]

how many times a week do you climb.i would suggest you just cilmb more and it will start to fall in to place.at the level your at i doubt getting all scientific with supplementry training is gonna help that much.

[carefultorque]

how many times a week do you climb.i would suggest you just cilmb more and it will start to fall in to place.at the level your at i doubt getting all scientific with supplementry training is gonna help that much.

3 times a week.   

Agree that volume's the way forward, but plainly a touch of hypertrophy would come in handy, too.

If I can do 4 x 4s at V2 and 8/10 V3+ onsight, my theoretical worked level is say V6.  It simply isn't possible that my onsight level is the same as my max level, so another way of asking what I'm saying is, what's stopping me from putting these harder problems together, especially when I can easily deal with the holds involved?

[SA Chris]

As you have said yourself, it sounds like learning movement is what is holding you back. Just play on problems and experiment to find what works. Dare I say a masterclass might help? I was cynical about them until I did one with Dave Mac. While it wasn't a revelation, it definitely helped with expanding and solidifying vague ideas and notions I had about generating movement from legs, rolling body on holds, etc.

[webbo]

maybe your belief that you SHOULD be able to climb v6 is the issue,you might just be putting to much pressure on your self.

[carefultorque]

maybe your belief that you SHOULD be able to climb v6 is the issue,you might just be putting to much pressure on your self.

Good point!  Maybe I should just chill a bit, put the work in while enjoying myself and it'll come with the increased volumes that I'm already doing.

[account_inactive]

Tabata didn't test squats AFAIK

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0145.htm

you're correct its some chat waterbury variation that I read on figureathlete or something I think...I still can't see how you can relate it to climbing, you can't exactly spring on a board, so do you go from doing a fr5 circuit to doing your max boulder problem then back or something? still not quite seeing how it would work anyway that's an aside.

I think it would probably work better with either system/fingerboard as you could gauge the intensity better.  The research was done at certain intensities so that they could assess the relative benefits of the different protocols.  I don't think that Tabata gave any recommendations as to what intensities were best to train..........but I could be wrong 

[i.munro]

maybe your belief that you SHOULD be able to climb v6 is the issue,you might just be putting to much pressure on your self.

Good point!  Maybe I should just chill a bit, put the work in while enjoying myself and it'll come with the increased volumes that I'm already doing.

I don't have any answers but I find myself in a similiar situation in a number of ways.
Not perhaps in the first flush of youth, longish background in trad then injuries & now trying to improve in bouldering, not so strong in the arms (slightly weaker than you) & always feel like I can hang the holds but not move.

One thing I've found useful if there's a move that feels a bit too strong (on a wall) is doing negative sets of the move.
ie cheat up to the hold you can't reach then try & drop back down the stopper move in as much control as you can  & repeat say 3 times in succession, rest & do again. I did that for a couple of sessions & on the third was able to do the move.


Also  few days ago I lashed out on a masterclass & part of the feedback was that I'm poor on dynamic moves.
Thinking about this I wonder if it's because the little arm strength I've got came from supplementary weight training  (ie slow rather than  fast twitch fibres).

The other thing was that motivated by having spent some cash & having a world class boulderer watching I came very close to V6(indoors)  in a couple of attempts, which is unheard of. As a result felt & to my suprise I felt like death the next day.
My conclusion being that perhaps I haven't really been trying as hard as I thought when 'training".

[carefultorque]

Very interesting idea with the negatives there.   

I will give that a try.

Glad the masterclass worked so well for you. Sounds as if you were held-back by self-belief, perhaps as I am.




 

[tommytwotone]

On a mental flava, I'd recommend getting hold of 'The Rock Warrior's Way'. I'm reading it at the moment and it's given me a lot of insight into what I do to myself while I'm climbing. Health warning - it can be a bit cheesy in a bit of an Oprah kind of way, but if you can look past that I think there's value in it.

Oh yeah. And do some pullups too.

[Paul B]

On a mental flava, I'd recommend getting hold of 'The Rock Warrior's Way'. I'm reading it at the moment and it's given me a lot of insight into what I do to myself while I'm climbing. Health warning - it can be a bit cheesy in a bit of an Oprah kind of way, but if you can look past that I think there's value in it.

Oh yeah. And do some pullups too.

why dont you go an buy Horst as well

[carefultorque]

why dont you go an buy Horst as well

I've looked at a Horst a few times.  He has some great ideas, but I prefer a more flexible approach, if you like.  Don't get me wrong, some very good stuff in there, but the whole weight thing and the repetitiveness - not really for me.  I  have listened to some great podcasts from me, especially on recovery.  All good. 

Thanks

[Paul B]

I was joking. Just to make sure people understand the sentiment: Don't buy Horst. Just Don't

[account_inactive]

I was joking. Just to make sure people understand the sentiment: Don't buy Horst. Just Don't

Agreed

[galpinos]

From a punter's point of view (ie mine) "The Self Coached Climber" is pretty good. A lot of the movement stuff gave me a lot to think about. It's not rocket science but a little prompting sometimes make a big difference.

Do you climb on your own? If you do, find other people to try problems with and work out what they do. The group of lads I climb with indoors all have different strengths and weaknesses so between us can usually sort out a way of doing most moves within our capability. It amazing how blinkered I can get when I'm struggling.

[carefultorque]

Do you climb on your own? If you do, find other people to try problems with and work out what they doing.

I boulder 80% on my own (because I tend to just grab a few hours at short notice) and 20% with mates I've known for a long time.  The main contenders are grades more technical than me. One has climbed an English 7a slab and is steady at around font 7b+, the other is steady font 7c.  I obviously can't even think about doing their problems but I do get to see lots of good movement in practice. 

I think I used to be a mardy fucker, looking back, but recently I've been a bit more gregarious down the wall and am tending to have goes of other people's efforts and chat about tactics.  It's more fun that way.

[carefultorque]

I was joking. Just to make sure people understand the sentiment: Don't buy Horst. Just Don't

Does anyone rate Horst?  Far as I can see, it's just a long-winded way of describing system board training with weights.

[Dave Westlake]

in reply to carefultorque-

You Don't do pull ups, but you can do 14!?!?

You must have some natural strength then, I reckon.  I can barely do 10 pull ups some days, in fact some days i struggle to do 5!

My pull up ability has always been shit, even when I had half decent power endurance (after doing burly traverses at woodwell).

Are pull ups really that important?   

[Falling Down]

Does anyone rate Horst?  Far as I can see, it's just a long-winded way of describing system board training with weights.

It certainly helped me make the jump from leading routes in the Fr 6's to the 7b/7b+ level a few years back by setting goals properly, structuring training and such like. Things have moved on since mind you but I still learned a lot and benefited from the book.

[Nigel]

There's something I don't understand and would like some help with please.

I want to put more load through the parts that count when I'm bouldering on plastic.  But I'm having problems working out what is stopping me.

I have reasonable arm-strength (can hold footless one-arm 90 degree lock for a second each side), and can crimp okay, hang and dyamically latch small holds.

But still I find:

1) difficulty doing problems longer than 2-4 moves on the 50 degree wall

2) difficulty finding suitable 'threshold' boulder problems.  V2 is a grade I can easily do 4 x 4's on.  V3+ is a grade I can onsight with good control indoors. So I ought to be able to benefit from threshold bouldering on the odd V6s.   Here I'm often blown by limitations in my movement repertoire but can latch holds and move between them somehow or other.

Any other ideas?

I'm never going to be the best boulderer but we all like to release our maximum potential, right?

Have only skim read the majority of the thread, but in answer to problem 1) I would suspect your shoulder girdle is letting you down. If the board is a true 50 then each move is going to require a very large element of one-arm strength. Now you obviously have some as you can lock off for one second. However as you have found you don't have enough and you've used your second of strength up by 2-4 moves in! Prob best way to make gains at your level is by doing sets of offset pull-ups and frenchies (working up to offset frenchies!). These will give you a bit of an arm and upper back workout with enough volume to have power-endurance benefits while going someway to targeting one-arm and locking strength respectively.

2) is probably affected by the vagaries of grading over anything else! In terms of movement on a 50 board, a good default technique to work from is to keep your hips (and free leg) into the wall as much as poss throughout moves, drop a knee and twist into the move where possible, and stare out the hold you're going for (makes a lot of difference!). Kind of applies on all angles but becomes most apparent the steeper it gets.

in reply to carefultorque-

You Don't do pull ups, but you can do 14!?!?

You must have some natural strength then, I reckon.  I can barely do 10 pull ups some days, in fact some days i struggle to do 5!

My pull up ability has always been shit, even when I had half decent power endurance (after doing burly traverses at woodwell).

Are pull ups really that important?  

Kind of agree on this, I used to bust out some pretty epic power endurance links at Woodwell that could conceivably get big grades, and I've never done any more than 13 pull-ups in my life. Mind you most climbers can do many more than this. Though probably it isn't as strong a predictor of climbing ability or endurance as you would expect; I believe (from what I've read) that forearm endurance is more important. Makes sense, not many people fall off complaining of pumped biceps or back muscles do they?! Even when simply doing sets of pull-ups its always your grip that lets you down.

[Jim]

In terms of movement on a 50 board, a good default technique to work from is to keep your hips (and free leg) into the wall as much as poss throughout moves, drop a knee and twist into the move where possible, and stare out the hold you're going for (makes a lot of difference!). Kind of applies on all angles but becomes most apparent the steeper it gets.

I can imagine big malc reading this whilst tutting and shaking his head

[Nigel]

I'm talking about good technique, whereas Malc is talking about bad technique on purpose in order to gain strength. Looking at the first frame of that vid Malc is more likely to be shaking his head at whoever stole his large deep-fried mars bar baguette just as he was about to tuck in.

[carefultorque]

 I would suspect your shoulder girdle is letting you down. If the board is a true 50 then each move is going to require a very large element of one-arm strength. Now you obviously have some as you can lock off for one second. However as you have found you don't have enough and you've used your second of strength up by 2-4 moves in! Prob best way to make gains at your level is by doing sets of offset pull-ups and frenchies (working up to offset frenchies!). These will give you a bit of an arm and upper back workout with enough volume to have power-endurance benefits while going someway to targeting one-arm and locking strength respectively.


[/quote author=Nigel link=topic=9397.msg152589#msg152589 date=1213906636]

Thanks!!  I think you could be on to something here. I will start to throw a few offset pulls and frenchies into the mix for six weeks and see where that gets me.

I should have said that there aren't any problems on the 50 degree wall lower than font 7b.

[philo]

do some core work, and this may sound daft but do some 45 degree work with trainers on, it will help you place you feet more carefully and i think it helps with core work as your putting less weight on your feet and holding your body close to the wall with your abs more.  proberbly not the best explanation has anyone else tried it?

[Paul B]

No because there are a million other ways that are better 

[carefultorque]

In terms of movement on a 50 board, a good default technique to work from is to keep your hips (and free leg) into the wall as much as poss throughout moves, drop a knee and twist into the move where possible, and stare out the hold you're going for (makes a lot of difference!). Kind of applies on all angles but becomes most apparent the steeper it gets.

I can imagine big malc reading this whilst tutting and shaking his head

It's inspiring to see big malc in action there.  Thanks for posting the clip and the tips: I'll have a go at applying these.

I think the wall I'm trying to do more on is a bit daft.  To keep the numbers that can use it to an absolute minimum, there are very few positive holds  except the odd side-pull. The crimps are mainly rank and I've seen some strong folk having to crimp the fuck out of slopers.  Even Malc there has some positive holds!

It's okay, just going to take a wee bit longer to sus what's needed.



 

[philo]

No because there are a million other ways that are better 

meh i guess your right. i only really do it when ive not tried all the problems and are at the end of a session

[GCW]

Has anyone suggested that you just go bouldering 3 times per week?
Technique and strength all in one, and it's FUN!

[fx]

hey mate

i think you d get most out of your training time by doing easier boulders and while doing them totally concentrate on technical aspects, i e drop knee, twisting and especially body wave (hope, the translations are right :-) ).
and i think, at least for stuff up to v5, pull up strength doesnt count much, you can close to always find a technical way, with that you can solve the problem... and with fourteen pullups youre pretty good, so no worries about that...  i d start to train for one arm pullups or to maximize my one arm locking power... endurance is best gained by climbing long long long boulders (easy stuff, 30-50 moves)...
in case i understood your problem in the right way, you cannot develop enough power/speed/momentum to get from the starting hold to the target? so you probably need to improve your dynamic climbing/body wave (or however it s called, when you initiate the move from your feet over your hips and then use the gained momentum to latch the next hold)... if this is the case, there s a pretty nice training for novices to this technique. get a pull up bar and a chair, put your feet up onto the chair, so that your body will be more or less horizontal (with outstretched arms), then lower your hip and snatch it up. in the moment you re feeling your body getting light you reach out with one hand to a target hold (imagenary or another pullup bar, a part of your door case or whatever). by this training, which isnt hard at all, you ll develop a feeling for this technique which will make it much easier to implement it onto the rock...
hope this helps :-) also, sure, try to lose some weight (in case you have a belly :-D)

cheers
felix