[Cookie]

I was interested to read the recent climbing/anorexia discussions at 8a.nu.
What are the thoughts of the UKB gang?

[account_inactive]

It makes me sick

[GCW]

It makes me sick

Oooh, that's a bad one

[Cookie]

Ha, I had a feeling that thoughts here might be more light-hearted than over there 

I wasn't sure what I thought about it until I read Adma Ondra's stats.  If his height and weight are correct at 170cm and 48kg, his BMI is 16.6.  But he's clearly not unhealthy, he's just not fully grown yet, and has a muscular and slim physique. 

Anyone who keeps their BMI below 18 and maintains the strength and stamina to climb well has my respect.  My BMI's between 19 and 20, and when I've tried to lose weight I just get weak and tired and stroppy.

[Houdini]

                                      Rather you than me.

[Jim]

Most climbers look malnourished if you ask me

[saltbeef]

It makes me sick

thats bulimia nervosa.

anorexia is a sorry illness, and interestingly more or less exclusive to developed nations. whether this is down to media influences in the west and lack therof in developing countries, underdiagnosis (unlikely) or just the fact that the poor buggers have more interresting things to worry about (tsunamis, malaria, war etc) than if their a size zero. poor bastards.

[account_inactive]

It worked for the point of the pun

[webbo]

It makes me sick

thats bulimia nervosa.

anorexia is a sorry illness, and interestingly more or less exclusive to developed nations. whether this is down to media influences in the west and lack therof in developing countries, underdiagnosis (unlikely) or just the fact that the poor buggers have more interresting things to worry about (tsunamis, malaria, war etc) than if their a size zero. poor bastards.

anorexia is just a medical condition.anorexia NERVOSA is the psychiatric illness/condition.the icd-10 classification of mental and behavioural disorders code f50 eating disorders.excludes anorexia or loss of appetite.
there is a whole bunch of other symptoms beside a b.m.i. of 17.5 before you can diagnose a.n.

   

[dave]

It worked for the point of the pun

I would question if that was actually a pun. It was hilarious though.

[Jaspersharpe]

While I'm sure it has it's uses, in my experience calculating ones BMI is a load of wank.

[Cookie]

there is a whole bunch of other symptoms beside a b.m.i. of 17.5 before you can diagnose a.n.

Exactly, hence Odrna's stats being healthy for a young skinny boy.  I also agree with Jaspersharpe's comment too, as its possible for muscular trained athletes to have an 'obese' BMI with a body fat <5%

Still, on the 8a.nu discussion I got the impression there was a bit too much protesteth going on...

[Nibile]

8a is the most insane bunch of idiots ever. they are obsessed by rules and stats, trying to cut down this discipline to bare numbers and to make everything uniformed.
they are disgusting, they lack fantasy, joy, self humour and bona fide.

[Cookie]

8a is the most insane bunch of idiots ever. they are obsessed by rules and stats, trying to cut down this discipline to bare numbers and to make everything uniformed.
they are disgusting, they lack fantasy, joy, self humour and bona fide.

Ooh, is it wrong that I got slightly aroused reading this post?

[Jaspersharpe]

Well said Nibs.

[Houdini]

8a is the most insane bunch of idiots ever. they are obsessed by rules and stats, trying to cut down this discipline to bare numbers and to make everything uniformed.  they are disgusting, they lack fantasy, joy, self humour and bona fide.

They are c*nts (my trans.)

[slackline]

BMI is a pretty wank metric anyway.  When I've included aspects of individuals body fat based on physical parameters I've tended to use the waist-hip ratio (WHR) as its a more reliable than BMI (measuring body fat using those fancy eletronic resistor things was not feasible in this study and they're not massively reproducible either).

[nik at work]

It makes me sick

thats bulimia nervosa.

 

He could mean sick as in unwell rather than vomiting?

[dave]

or sick as in really good, rad, awesome, ill, crazy etc

[Paul B]

there is a whole bunch of other symptoms beside a b.m.i. of 17.5 before you can diagnose a.n.

Exactly, hence Odrna's stats being healthy for a young skinny boy.  I also agree with Jaspersharpe's comment too, as its possible for muscular trained athletes to have an 'obese' BMI with a body fat <5%

Still, on the 8a.nu discussion I got the impression there was a bit too much protesteth going on...

my bmi would currently be ok but roll it back to about a year ago and it would be to low...

[Nibile]

21,7 ningun problema here.

[BenF]

I love the way there are two threads going here:

A) a discussion about anorexia
B) a debate about puns and anorexia jokes

Obviously I find the punning/joking element the more informative one.    

[GCW]

My BMI is just over 24 at present, but that's all beer gut.
"Anorexia" simply means lack of appetite and is a symptom not a condition.

BMI is fair for the general population, but in athletic people is often a waist of time.  If you are wiry and strong your BMI may well be low, if you are a bodybuilder you may be obese according to BMI.
And why can't you just lie on 8a?  Or do you get a medical before you can sign up?

[Fiend]

8a.who?

[Jaspersharpe]

BMI is fair for the general population, but in athletic people is often a waist of time. 

That certainly is a bad pun. Well done for combining both threads in one post.

My BMI is about 19 by the way and the calculators alway say I'm underweight which is total crap.

[dave]

mines 23.2ish, which puts me on the upper end of average. which given i'm alaleged to be 6'8", puts me at about 20 stone.

[GCW]

"Normal" is 18.5-24.9, whatever difference that makes.

I'd have to be 66.5kg to get down to 18.5.  No way I can lose 20kg    so I should be OK for 8a.nu should I ever wish to register

[moose]

And why can't you just lie on 8a?  Or do you get a medical before you can sign up?

Before being given your 8a scorecard you must withstand an initiation ceremony.  Few live through it, and of those who have, only the bravest dare break the covenant of silence.  Dissent is often limited to a muffled sob, perhaps a whimper, before the poor broken wretch scuttles furtively away, fearing at any moment a most terrible retribution.

My own studies of this ceremony are inconclusive and often contradictory, a legacy of interviews at mental asylums and with the shattered remnants of "accidents". Amongst the few constant themes are a huge subterranean cavern, a procession of robed and masked torch bearers, and a bewildering Power Point presentation, replete with tables and graphs, after which the inductee must pledge an oath of allegiance to the "number one ranking climber".  Some credence must also be given to tales of microchip implants that deliver searing agony to anyone foolish enough to confuse Flash and Onsight when compiling their scorecard... the scars and residual epilepsy are certainly real.

[Plattsy]

Any offers on 25.2?

Probably accurate although it hasn't changed in 3 years and my fitness levels are through the roof (my roof is low alright) at the moment compared to 3 years ago. Conclusion I'm still overweight but fitter and stronger and enjoying life still  .

To make this more accurate I think other body dimensions should be included. Shoulder width, Waist size etc.....

[GCW]

Cheers, Moose.  Yet another reason not to register.
You've been reading too much Lovecraft, my lad.

[Bubba]

I've seen quite a few borderline eating disorders displayed by climbers over the years. I once saw somebody eat two chocolate flapjacks then ten minutes later go and force themselves to throw up because they should have only had one. Not healthy really.

[fatkid2000]

As GCW states above Anorexia is a symptom. Anorexia Nervosa is the condition we all hear about in the papers, relating to distorted body image and extreme weight loss methods. I lived with a girl at Uni who suffered with a cross between Anorexia and Bulimia Nervosa. She was also a top level sprinter and held 2 national records, however she also practiced some pretty extreme methods of weight control. She was the sterotypical girl to suffer from this illness - high achieving perfectionist.

I've also come across it in cycling, and I'm sure it must be common for climbers to suffer from anorexia. Any sport where power to weight ratio is an issue, must be affected by it. I've read articles in sports medicine journals stating the number (around 60%) of endurance athletes that started marathon running etc due to body weight issues.

[Jim]

25.5. I am overweight

[carefultorque]

I was interested to read the recent climbing/anorexia discussions at 8a.nu.
What are the thoughts of the UKB gang?

A. Nervosa is a horrendous illness.  It killed a friend (female) of mine when she was 14.  She kept swimming regularly, even when she looked like something out of Belsen.  She died of a heart attack.
I met another (female) sufferer in her teens who got over it by her early twenties. 

I wouldn't be surprised it there were a lot of folk, including male climbers, who could go that way.    It's clearly advantageous to have a body fat % similar to that of an olympic athlete.  If 14% is okay, 12% feels great.  It that works even better, why not try 8%?

For those who lack the predisposition, willpower or knowledge to make this possible, I imagine there's a great deal of misery, obsession and possibly illness in the process of trying.

[andy_e]

I was 16-17 last time i checked. I eat shit loads of terrible foods and hardly ever excercise. I think my tapeworm is about to suffer a heart attack though.

[Bubba]

It killed a friend (female) of mine when she was 14.  She kept swimming regularly, even when she looked like something out of Belsen.  She died of a heart attack.

That's so sad

[stevie haston]

hello , this is probabably one of the most important things ever discused and its a bit telling that most people are either making jokes or hide theirs heads in the sand. I am very sorry for one posters loss but there are propably others. The austrians are right to try at least something, there are five other criteria for a banning and although the flawed Bmi tables are indeed ify they are at least something. I have been involved in high end rockclimbing and alpinism for more than 35 years I have seen apalling things like girls clearly below 17 bmi breaking leg bones when landing on mats in comps.Some women have given up comps because the next up and coming girl was clearly nearly dying and they wouldnt or couldnt go that light. I have known inter national champs who have been bullimic,  who have misused laxitives, who have used sport enhancing drugs, and who have fucked themselves physically and mentally, not to mention the pain they have caused their friends and families. A. N. sufferers can not help themselves , some one must step in. Children who are extreamly underweight are the responsibility of the parents and in some cases should be taken to court, because aiding  and abetting in hurting themselves is criminal .
At the bottom of this lies the fact that to be good at climbing you must be very light or as light as possible. It is much easier to loose wieght than to get strong. I repeat I have known many people (men boys women girls) some times they have been couples which compounds things more. Anyway   
I myself have been down to below 700 cals a day for months on end and was very ill, my climbing went thru the roof, I could run like the wind and the cost was appalling. My wife has been thru similar issues, and we are the tip of iceberg. Please think about this a bit more than slagging of BMI tables. Yours Stevie Haston.

[c.j.d.]

I agree with Mr Haston - it is far easier to lose weight than get strong, only problem being is that fast weight loss is short lived and once you decide to eat again, you will pile on pounds, and retain this weight more than likely as fat.  There is nothing wrong with an extremely healthy diet, but bare in mind, you need fat/oils (and I don't mean saturated) in this diet to function.  I'm 71kg, 5.11, and my BMI is 15 - I love wine and fine food, but am also careful with this, and when it is needed, I train like a fucker.  Dieteary disorders are very easy to slip into, and detramental to your health in more ways than you can imagine (in many cases leading to serious mental disorders also).  Eat well, and train harder - the goals will be long term.

[Joepicalli]

hello , this is probabably one of the most important things ever discused and its a bit telling that most people are either making jokes or hide theirs heads in the sand. I am very sorry for one posters loss but there are propably others. The austrians are right to try at least something, there are five other criteria for a banning and although the flawed Bmi tables are indeed ify they are at least something. I have been involved in high end rockclimbing and alpinism for more than 35 years I have seen apalling things like girls clearly below 17 bmi breaking leg bones when landing on mats in comps.Some women have given up comps because the next up and coming girl was clearly nearly dying and they wouldnt or couldnt go that light. I have known inter national champs who have been bullimic,  who have misused laxitives, who have used sport enhancing drugs, and who have fucked themselves physically and mentally, not to mention the pain they have caused their friends and families. A. N. sufferers can not help themselves , some one must step in. Children who are extreamly underweight are the responsibility of the parents and in some cases should be taken to court, because aiding  and abetting in hurting themselves is criminal .
At the bottom of this lies the fact that to be good at climbing you must be very light or as light as possible. It is much easier to loose wieght than to get strong. I repeat I have known many people (men boys women girls) some times they have been couples which compounds things more. Anyway   
I myself have been down to below 700 cals a day for months on end and was very ill, my climbing went thru the roof, I could run like the wind and the cost was appalling. My wife has been thru similar issues, and we are the tip of iceberg. Please think about this a bit more than slagging of BMI tables. Yours Stevie Haston.

With you on the no joking matter. If there's a thread for the jokey shit people should do it there.
However the problem with b.m.i. and sportspeople is a real one it is unable to take account of muscle mass. Perhaps body fat % might be a way to go for judging weather a person is dieting dangerously?

[jwi]

I'm 71kg, 5.11, and my BMI is 15

Eh. No. 71 inch = 1.8 meter. BMI = 71/1.8² = 22

Yes, BMI is a simplistic model, assuming an adult, average, non-athletic, body-type. Having less than 17 BMI  is way more dangerous for an athlete than someone not doing exercise.

[Nibile]

i too have gone through an alimentary disorder many years ago. i wasn't much obsessed with weight, more with fat percentage. i have terrible memories of eating one entire cream pie and then training for days to come without eating, or going on for weeks just on cans of tuna. it was terrible, i couldn't go out for dinner with friends, and so on. i was just running, cycling and lifting weights all the time.
one summer i hadn't trained as much as usual, and i was very concerned about being fat and weak, but one day i went climbing and redpointed my first 7c, and it changed everything. i understood that i could climb better than i had done before, and that being ripped is good but not essential. from that september 7th 1997 i fought my way back into - almost - normality, and i live better now. i like to think that climbing saved my life.

[Paul B]

I agree with Mr Haston - it is far easier to lose weight than get strong, only problem being is that fast weight loss is short lived

Thats true but you fail to differentiate between weight and fat, yes its easy to loose weight, but to do so without loosing lean muscle mass isn't quite so easy. I fail to believe that in a sport such as bouldering loosing weight (inc. lean mass) has more gain than the strength that you get from that mass. I certainly haven't found it to be so and the only dieting i've ever undertaken is to consciously add some extra muscle. Obviously there will be some kind of optimum level but I just can't see this being infinitely close to you weighing the same as a feather, hence the whole extreme weight loss thing should be self defeating?

and once you decide to eat again, you will pile on pounds, and retain this weight more than likely as fat. 

that'll be due to you your metabolism slowing right down.

(I'd also like to point out to stevey that random leg breaking on mat's sometimes just does happen and just coincides with being runt-esque in appearance.  )

On another (gossip related) note, I'd heard that the BMC had prevented someone from competing in international comps really quite recently and that person really does looks ill.

[The Sausage]

my BMI is 19.6, and I'm pretty bloody skinny, and not that muscular. That said, I think that SHORT TERM weight manipulation is not unhealthy per se. Let's say, for example, that my "normal" weight is 67kg. If I'm trying something at my limit, it makes more sense to cut out the beer/chocolate/2 rounds of toast and butter when I get in from work for a few weeks, lose a couple of kilograms, and get it done.

[stevie haston]

hello Paul B, the girl who broke bones from a fall of a foot was  thougth to be 35 kgs at a hieght of 5 foot 5ins. Internatinional competitors were complaining about her (they incidently had not had periods for years), I had route setters complaining to me who were of course 5 percent fat and mad as hatters, but all these persons were very concered for the girls future health. There were a few very serious cases which led to prolonged illness,I am sure there are probably more now as climbing is tougher at the top. One lovely girl went public about her anerexia which gave her the courage to stop climbing at a high standard. The illnesses associated with top level weigth related sport are very well documented, it seems very serious in girls,and boys and women, men suffer too but osteoperosis is much more insidious in females.
As to weigth and climbing, if you loose wieght too fast you may (probably) loose more muscle than fat, with steroids this effect would be negated. If you wish to do a test to see how good you would be at a lower wieght try pulling on a hold you cant pull on normally but with 4 kgs taken off with a pully and weight, you will be shocked. The incredible thing about climbing is that most routes dont require very big muscles and the hard routes just have a tendency to have smaller holds, added weight on small holds causes failure. Your posts are very good Paul and well thought out, thanks. If I wanted to get good in three weeks how would I do it? Would I stick at it training in the gym getting maybe two more pull ups on my max or would I just drop 4 kgs and be able to pull on that hold that I keep slipping off.
I once spent two weeks with a guy who was an international champ, we climbed and hardly eat, I went from onsighting 7b+ to easy 8s, in that time the guy I was with eat a few raw vegtables a few apples drank lots of water and coffee,he came outside of the top three and put it down to getting it a bit wrong. I was glad to get away and eat, I was happy to see my standard drop. Like I said the bmi thing is very iffy but it is ony one thing to be considered, and for folks who think why not measure body fat, nearly every top competitor goes in around 5 %. Yours Stevie Haston.

[Paul B]

hello Paul B, the girl who broke bones from a fall of a foot was  thougth to be 35 kgs at a hieght of 5 foot 5ins.

I hope you noted the smiley but just in case: I'm very thin and managed to break myself on a very squishy mat. 

As to weigth and climbing, if you loose wieght too fast you may (probably) loose more muscle than fat, with steroids this effect would be negated. If you wish to do a test to see how good you would be at a lower wieght try pulling on a hold you cant pull on normally but with 4 kgs taken off with a pully and weight, you will be shocked.

I see your point completely and a la le sausage I can't see that being a particularly bad thing if you've got a bit of leaning out to do. What I fail to comprehend (or don't wish to believe) is that you will see the same increase in performance as you reduce the weight even further (to a level that makes you ill). There's got to be a point where it just doesn't get you anywhere, yes you might be able to hang a micron wide edge but energy levels and recovery surely suffer and hence make the whole process a waste of time (but you didn't find this to happen?). I guess this point will be at an earlier stage in bouldering where power is more of a focus compared to routes.

[luckyjez]

Just calculated mine as 17.5, which will surprise no-one who knows me. I seem to spend most of my days chasing calories too and get hungry every 3 hours. I think that i'm a good example of why BMI only gives part of the story having a slim frame and generally being a classic ectomorph. A measuring tool that simple clearly doesn't have enough parameters to give the whole story. It's a good starting point when trying to spot possible problems though.

[jpx]

My BMI's between 19 and 20, and when I've tried to lose weight I just get weak and tired and stroppy.

I guess that means you've found your healthy weight. Probably everyone has a different natural healthy weight and it's when they do below this that they become weaker. God knows if most of us got our BMI as low as Adam Ondra we wouldn't be able to climb for shit.

[The Sausage]

BMI and E grades are similar in that they only really make sense with the object in question in front of you. An E3 overhanging crack is obviously strenuous but not bold, whereas a blank E3 slab is obviously bold but not strenuous. Likewise, a bodybuilder with a high BMI is obviously not obese, whereas a fatso with a high BMI is obviously not a bodybuilder.

[Johnny Brown]

Not so easy to tell at the other end of the scale though. You may be a natural skinny fuck, but you don't look any different to someone who's got their head over the toilet after every lettuce leaf.

A mate of mine bumped into Josune and husband at a spanish crag and said they were clearly unwell through dieting and had to spend the whole morning struggling up the hill to the crag with rests every fifty yards.

[stevie haston]

hello again, there is a well thought out artical at www.8a.nu  on anorexia by a doc who is a climber. It seems preetty good, there are a few errors in grammer but I;m sure you,ll still understand.Bodybuilders eat more protein and less carb and fat when getting in comp wieght than this doc advise, but they like this doc do not stay below 8 for more than a few weeks, as opposed to climbers who are often below 8 for years. He gives a sensible assesment of the bmi debate and I really recomend you look at this. cheers Stevie. 

[Paul B]

It oversimplifies the way to loose bodyfat without loosing lean muscle mass. Cutting diets aren't quite as simple as the article might suggest imo.

[tc]

Greetings Steven! I've sent you a Personal Message.
tc

[athletikspesifik]

As to weigth and climbing, if you loose wieght too fast you may (probably) loose more muscle than fat, with steroids this effect would be negated. If you wish to do a test to see how good you would be at a lower wieght try pulling on a hold you cant pull on normally but with 4 kgs taken off with a pully and weight, you will be shocked.

I see your point completely and a la le sausage I can't see that being a particularly bad thing if you've got a bit of leaning out to do. What I fail to comprehend (or don't wish to believe) is that you will see the same increase in performance as you reduce the weight even further (to a level that makes you ill). There's got to be a point where it just doesn't get you anywhere, yes you might be able to hang a micron wide edge but energy levels and recovery surely suffer and hence make the whole process a waste of time (but you didn't find this to happen?). I guess this point will be at an earlier stage in bouldering where power is more of a focus compared to routes.

Completely agree, the catabolic state of the caloric deficit will render musculotendinous injury at some point (varies by age/training age) making the A.N. condition at odds with climbing performance (although I agree that clipping bolts will probably favor the A.N. over bouldering).

At the recent Bouldering World Cup in Vail, the female Finalists (Euro and American) didn't appear to be in unhealthy BF conditions.  The shift (in the States) from sport to bouldering, I think, has taken the edge off of extreme weight management.  It seemed like the top female competitors of the lat 90's were unusually lean, and today's competitors look more athletic. 

The climber who has decided to cut weight (short term, as per the example of 3 weeks) is playing a risky game in relation to performance.  Is the cut weight water (does that person normally retain water, if so fluid loss may be a benefit, if not, then they should expect a performance deficit) or lean mass (is the lean mass from the chain of climbing specific musculature...depends on the anthropomorphic features of the individual) or fat loss (generally of benefit, but unlikely in such a short term without risking lean mass loss)?  Loss of lean mass may not be a big issue as climbing performance is closer to neurological upregulation and tensil strength than large muscular cross-sectional diameter strength...some balance must be had.  Some hypertrophy is needed for performance and some is needed for structural integrity to avoid injury.

[Nibile]

i think that to train at your limit you need a healthy, solid body. modern routes are far more brutal than years ago, when the playing ground was mostly vertical. i am absolutely nobody at climbing, but since i started to train seriously i can't cut any food from my diet and don't want to lose weight. bouldering is very different from sport climbing on this, but even in world cup lead events i always see powerful, thick and muscular climbers.
i think that for someone losing alot of weight is a shortcut for some higher performance. i don't like it and don't do it.

[Sloper]

The whole subject is perfect for misinformation, idle speculation and confusion between casualty and causality.

The trouble is climbers for many years thought that light was good and heavy was bad forgetting that the issue was health and specific fitness.

You'll never be fit living on a head of broccoli a day etc etc.  Just imagine how good the likes of Malc Smith (picking random person who used to have a high profile regarding weight and training to illustrate the point) could have been if they'd had sound advice on diet and training.