[abarro81]

Beta me up. Beta me right up.
Might try this tomorrow if dry, anything useful to help save time/energy? http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=29346 makes it look like left knee gets used.. is this in the obvious big undercut at the roof?
Only gonna try cop out first but thinking of trying the top wall or even waddage in future if all goes well so any sneaky beta for upper sections also appreciated.

[dave]

i think the left kneebar thing is a red herring. here's my beta from the jug at the top of weedkiller:
LH to good flatty left, foot up and RH over to the crimp hold to the right of the hold the guys using there. bring feet up somewhere and span out left to the sloper (guy's got his left hand on this), this forgoes the kneebar pissing around. Then put right heel above the RH adn get a heel-toe in, pull up (rather than just trying to hang on it) and reach to good 3finger crimp over the lip with RH. the clamp something/heeltoe with left foot and bring LH over to the crimp rail on the good bit (clip). match rail. now (and this is the bit the made the difference for me on the lead and turned a powersapping bit into steady climbing) put left heeltoe on top of the sloper hold (you had your left hand on this earlier), smear right foot on rock in obvious place, and reach up for good hold far above with RH, match the lessgood bit next to this with LH without moving feet, cut loose, put right foot up on lip, slap to good incut sidepull, swap feet, pull over for jug.

[Jaspersharpe]

However, if you use the kneebar you can clip the bolt on the lip and reverse thereby removing the need to clip anything on redpoint attempts.     

It's also worth remembering that 16 years ago, age 18, Malc basically onsighted this route. He had beta for the bottom section but eschewed the kneebar sequence and staticed through the roof before onsighting the top section. Possibly the most impressive piece of climbing I've ever seen.

[travs]

Didn't use knee bar either but what I did use was 2 footlocks in at the same time. You need to be pretty flexible in the hips but it makes the moves round the roof piss.

[dave]

the clip on the lip ain't hard, i would have thought just making it on the lead is actually less hassle compared to climbing up, putting in a kneebar that you'll probably have to sort out a kneepad for, then reversing to the ground, and then having the rope in your way when you try to lead through.

I also heard that jerry's sequence for this was get to the two slopers in the guy in the photo has, cut loose and footless to the rail around the lip!

[Somebody's Fool]

put right foot up on lip, slap to good incut sidepull, swap feet, pull over for jug.

And then?

[dave]

tap the back of your hand and drop off, naturally.

[north_country_boy]

the knee is good when you know where and how to use it. Oh and clipping the 3rd draw at the lip is essential rather than pre clipping like many seem to do.......

[Jaspersharpe]

No it's fine provided you do the downclimb four times before each redpoint attempt. This may or may not include doing the downclimb twice, going home and sleeping, coming back and doing it another time, going for lunch at The Red Lion in Litton, completing the fourth downclimb and then redpointing the route, depending on how sound your ethics are.

FFS I thought everyone knew that.   

[dave]

thats fine as long as you've got the same belayer each time.

[abarro81]

Cheers for the beta, got all the moves but not the link.. mostly using Dave's beta, though was doing a wierd cross-under before cutting lose instead of using bad bit with LH - not sure if it'll work that way on the link though so may need a rethink.

[abarro81]

I decided to downclimb with rope assistance from the crux repeatedly so figure it's fine if I just leave my rope throught the last bolt and just start from there next time.

[Bonjoy]

From old thread:

BUT climbing up, clipping, climbing back down, then falling off onto the pre-clipped bolt but leaving it preclipped for the next attempt? No. To me that's cheating. As usual it's what matters to you, but if one of my mates was doing that i'd try to give them enough abuse about it to make it worth their while not to cheat again! If you blow the onsight do you just lower off and leave the rope in yo-yo style? Hell no

Have you changed your mind now? 

[abarro81]

Um.. I wasn't being serious. Aint no dubious 3rd bolt preclipping or downclimb shizzle goin' down on my watch. By downclimb with rope assistance I mean get lowered off to eat cake.

[dave]

seriously though, making the 3rd clip on the fly when you've got at least 1 heel-toe in ain't a problem, its nowhere near as hard as grimacing gresham makes it look in that photo in The Power Of Climbing.

[Jaspersharpe]

Basic Gresham hadn't realised you could get any kneebars or footlocks when he did it. He used to curse that photo because it showed exactly why it took him as long as it did to redpoint it. 

[cowboyhat]

But that clip is easy to make anyway.

As for beta, I was under the impression that the knee bar was for the tricky reach left to the crimp that you later heel toe on, as you need to keep your hips into the rock.

In which case i didn't use a knee bar. I put both feet together on the big polishd foothold and fold my knees over to the left which has the same effect (pulling your hips in). I hope this makes sense.

[dave]

when i was working it i didn't find any move that was made easier by trying to kneebar, infact quite the opposite. i can imagine shorties might find it useful though or some shit like that.

[Bonjoy]

I'm not one to spurn a kneebar lightly, but in this case I didn't use it. It seems to fit better for those with longer legs and it's very painful without a good pad. I think I did the same thing as Cowboyhat.
For the move to the hold over the lip I used a front on heel-toe on the crimp just below the sloper that most people use for a sideways heel-toe. It's harder to place but once in seems to give more benefit for less effort and is less prone to injuring the knee (a lot of people have hurt their knee on this move). I think Rob Smith also did it this way.