[Will Hunt]

Didnt really think this warranted a whole new UKCaving account but I know theres a few goblins who post on here.

Anyways, I was chatting to a lass today and she mentioned that she had started caving this year with the Leeds Uni club. For some reason we were chatting about abseils etc and it transpired that she had never heard of let alone used a prussik.
Is this normal caving practice? Apparently sometimes she uses a self locking descender but apparently sometimes she doesnt and she has basically been told, as a novice, that she shouldnt let go of the rope lest she perish. I couldnt believe it. She said "Oh well we tie knots in the end of the ropes". Well la de da I thought. You take a full rope length fall onto a knot and I doubt youd be very happy. Nor would the anchors for that matter.
I dont know that much about caving so please correct me if I'm wrong but is this not bloody irresponsible of the experienced members not to back up their novices while abseiling?!

[andy_e]

thank god- for a minute there i thought dave might have poisoned your young, innocent brain...

[Sloper]

Why would you back up a novice?

If belayed off a single novice on a number of occasions and never had any problems.

[Will Hunt]

Well I had a chat with a friend who also caves and they say this is pretty normal. Apparently its not uncommon to have a fair few bolts and other anchors equalised so the falling to the end of the rope scenario isnt the end of the world. Still, not something I'd want to do. I guess the cavers are just more hardcore.

[Bubba]

Cavers use static rope so falling a rope length to a knot would be extremely unpleasant. I've done some quite big pitches on a fig-8 but it's not really a great idea - if a rock hits you on the head then you've no backup.

Petzl Stop has been the cavers descender of choice for many years - they work.

[dave smith]

I have to say that I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would be using anything except a stop for descending. The one exception is on VERY big pitches (as in, bigger than anything we have in the uk - we're talking several hundred metres) where the friction of a petzl stop combined with the excessive rope length, and therefore weight, would be impractical. I have heard of Petzl Simple descenders being used very rarely, but the fact is that prussic loops and wet ropes don't really go together. The only time these are really used are in shafts that are soooooo narrow as to inhibit the caver's ability to have both hands at waist height, which is to say incredibly specific expert use.

Andi: I will bend Will's young mind to my troglodytic ways, just you wait.

Will: I will have a lengthy and detailed chat with you about this issue tomorrow, if you like.

[Will Hunt]

Will: I will have a lengthy and detailed chat with you about this issue tomorrow, if you like.

Thank God you forgot 

[Houdini]

Petzl stops are not rated by Petzl for drops over either 100 or 150m (someone correct me which as I don't have a stop to hand).  I took issue w/ being given a WORN stop to use as part of an certed abseil kit (from one of the largest access companies in the UK) to use on a skyscraper that was 200m tall.  I used my own brand new stop instead as it was not worn and the L3 chewed my butt about it untill I mentioned the rating that was stamped on the casing of the stop.  He stopped talking after that.

The Petzl ID is good kit and should not be overlooked.  I have damage both the static rope and the stop before now (in normal work circumstances).

I've also been part of a two man access team where I have been forced to "shut up and get paid" or "fuck off".   That is to say, work w/ a guy w/ no access experience at all on the ropes (someone who could not rig up his kit to make a cable climb on prussics . . . )  It's a funny game.

[underground]

Well I had a chat with a friend who also caves and they say this is pretty normal. Apparently its not uncommon to have a fair few bolts and other anchors equalised so the falling to the end of the rope scenario isnt the end of the world. Still, not something I'd want to do. I guess the cavers are just more hardcore.

Well it shouldn't be normal - (not prussiking I mean) as it's going o be the only way of getting back out of the hole if it goes pear shaped- even if the plan is to exit at the bottom...

There is a school of thought advocating the use of a simple descender or an immobilisd lever on a stop, to mitigate against the 'clutch and plummet' reaction in beginners, but other than the rack for long straight drops, a stop is the descender of choice...

[fatkid2000]

Any of you cave types taken part in cave diving, that looks seriously hard core.

[dave smith]

Yeah, I was chatting to Will about the 'clutch and plummet' reaction as you so nicely put it. Having heard a lot about it, I have to say that I've never seen it happen. Also, if someone's at the bottom of the rope and pulls downwards, the plummeting mass will stop Prussiking (well, SRT if you're a caver) is standard. You shouldn't be in a pot if you can't climb a rope, simple as.

Houdini: I've heard of these ID jobbies, but never had a chance to use one. I think they're used more for rescue and hauling by cavers than for descending, but correct me if I'm wrong, my experience is with a pretty small group (admittedly a very well trained and experienced one).

I've also (once) been in a situation where the friction of the stop started to melt the sheath of the rope - SCARY! However this was in conditions that won't be found in UK caves - it was abseiling out of a cave down a 30 metre cliff in the south of France, in 35 degree sunshine!

[andy_e]

Andi: I will bend Will's young mind to my troglodytic ways, just you wait.

I meant the other Dave, Brown Dave.

[dave smith]

Psycho Dave?

[Houdini]

ID's avoid CLUTCH & PLUMMET: there is a point in the travel of the handle where progressive descent is halted.  I think they complicate rescues though.

Ask JB about that.

[andy_e]

Psycho Dave?

Quite possibly, he's not psycho, just misunderstood!

[Shy Yorkshireman]

An id is good for 200m but i don't reckon you'd want one down a cave, bit big. don't real hole dwellers use a rack any way. 

[Bubba]

Racks are more expedition/huge pitch type gear. I used to have one but never used it.

A Stop is the standard for most UK caving - safe, easy to use, hard to drop, easy to lock off and to add extra braking if required.