[Bubba]

Great photo - was trying to find one similar - read The Dawes account here:

http://www.johnnydawes.com/Indian_Face.htm

I think James McHafie was stranded for something like 4 hourse. Bet his feet ached.

Yeah, these routes ain't no joke - I always remember reading about John Redhead in tears as he comtemplated the jump 80ft to the scree below when he thought he'd blown it. Errr...Thanks, but no thanks.

[dave]

wasn't it also mchafie's dad who did the infamous boxing-gloves-and-rollerscates stunt on little cham? must be something in the water.

[Adam Lincoln]

thanks again.  I hadnt seen that.  Now all I need is to find out which route it is
Cheers

James

You should have asked me yesterday, id have drawn you a map!

Who's going for it, Justin?

[james]

Justin is still in corfu.
Keith wants to have a look.  He wants to be famous and I want to make the most of my last days off school so everyones a winner.
Is there anyway of getting a topo to me?  Could you scan one in and email it?
Cheers

James

[dave]

just but the guide. You'll almost certainly be driving past outside and joe borwn in llanberis anyway, only a few quid and you've got a great bit of history. Probably worth buy for the indian face routes description alone (a work of art in itself!), i think it takes up 4 pages, the longest of any route in britain (the the possible exception of the stanage girdle).

[Rhys]

Before he sets up on this he may want to consider a few things first. I think this is a special route, one with a lot of history- your mate might want to do a little research first, there is a thought provoking article in Redhead's 'One for the crow'- it should give a background to the route, there is also Jonny Dawes' essay on it (I think it's already been mentioned here), and you can find a transcript of a radio programe featuring Dawes and Redhead by this link- www.therockzone.co.uk/therockzone/rock1.html (just go to the transcript.)

I don't want to sound a bit wierd but I think some routes are special and should be treated as such. When you know some of the history and torment behind this route you may agree, I think it should wait for an onsight or not have a further ascent at all. I certainly don't think it should be done just for fame.

Sorry if this is patronising- I don't mean it to be, but by setting off up it without knowing anything about it I think you might be missing part of the experience- possibly on the onsight one day in the future. Anyway, hope you have a great day out on Cloggy- there are so many good routes there you're bound to have a memorable experience!

[hongkongstuey]

I think it should wait for an onsight or not have a further ascent at all. etc. etc.

i think people should climb it however they want (in a not damaging the rock kinda way) and take it away as a personal memory

although, have to say i'm with Nick Dixon on this one - the route would kill you if you fluffed it - which most people who inspected it / TR'd it first seem to have almost done on their ascents!, so i'd take the cautious approach (but i'm a bolt clipping wuss these days so thats no suprise)

i'd have to be running laps on Masters Wall before even contemplating the onsight on it

i agree with what Johnny said about blowing the onsight of some great routes by hopping on them on a rope when i was young and eager for big grades but you've got to improve the grade somehow and there comes a point where pushing it out becomes too damn dangerous

i'd definitely buy the man (or woman - after all, its crimpy slab/face climbing aint it) who onsights it a beer or two though (shortly before they locked them up in a psyciatric ward!)

[Paz]

There was a rare good post on the other place a while ago from someone in the know about what it would take to onsight IF.  It was a bit of a Dawes-esque ramble, but quite inspiring, basically reckoned you want to climb a lot on that cliff, to get to know the rock.  It does have it's own feel, even from the easier routes.  It's like High Tor, you want to do every classic thing on it,in order, it's an awesome tick list of routes.  In Dave's photo, the left wards slanting break is more or less where the route ends, and the blue dot is a guy on the top bit of one of the routes between November, or Vember, E1 - E3 ish.  McHaffie got lost cos Masters and IF have the same start, then (don't quote me) masters traverses right then up, and IF goes left then up, where as he went straight up.  It's a long way out of my league but having done other routes on the cliff (admittedly easier drainage lines or White Slab on the west buttress which has a different character to East Buttress qwhere IF is) a precaution I'd take is to get a mate to ab down and maybe clean the holds a bit.  Vickers had this done for him before he onsighted Linden.  It would be easier with chalked holds though.  I know it's nominally given a relatively modest top rope sport grade, so the physical ability is out there to go for the onsight, but the moves sound hard to get first time and working out where the fuck it goes while hanging on... Still doesn't Dawes mention some rest and didn't Leo flash the masters wall part of it in baggy rock boots before he was weened on to solids?  If your mates still game I wouldn't take any fucking guff from anyone about beta.  If you read all the information available to you, it's just sensible, it's part of knowing the history and having awe and respect for the route.  And it's some of the most wonderful climbing prose ever written.

[Paz]

Bollocks he posted yesterday so he's probably gone already hasn't he?

[james]

No we didnt go. Keith was being silly, long story, and it was all a bit to rushed.  We are going to have a look at it this weekend.  Thanks for all the info it is much apreciated.  As for the onsite, it may happen sooner than you think.
Cheers

James