[cider nut]

I'm posting this on UKB rather than UKC to elicit serious responses (hopefully!), and also hopefully the question applies to bouldering as well as trad!  Sorry for the wordy-ness, the basis is the following sentence, the rest of background:

Does anyone have any tips on how to avoid falling into the trap of 'this route is at a grade below my hardest lead, it should be easy'?  Short of just *knowing* that that's silly thinking.

Last year I started pushing into a grade I'd been aiming at for 3 years (HVS).  All the routes I did at the grade put me into a great mental state as I had to pull everything out of the bag to complete them, so as a result they were all mind blowingly awesome.  That created a divide from all the lower grade routes though, and I kind of saw HVS as 'hard' and anything below that as 'easy'.  Which invariably meant that I'd jump onto an HS to warm up, not be prepared for its challenge, fail on it, then my day would be spoilt.  I got around this by warming up on solo or a second instead rather than an easier lead, as I can separate seconding and soloing problems in my head from leading.  However, sometimes I only wanted to lead easier routes and was still finding them hard - quite frustrated as I never had a problem on HS until I started climbing harder!  Think is, I KNEW what I was doing, but couldn't snap out of it - no amount of repeating 'HS routes can STILL be hard', 'nobody is entitled to be able to climb a certain/route grade' was working.

Over the winter I just tried to get out on whatever routes the weather allowed so this problem didn't rear its ugly head.  I seemed to be climbing well, so was excited for the good weather to come round so I could push myself on hard stuff again.

Which it has, and so the pushing myself has started!  Only just started mind - as I had a bit of a month off in April and have spent the start of May finding my feet.  I've just had a storming week though, and things are going well (almost entirely because I've overcome several mental problems with climbing that I've struggled with, identified, and work on).  So far I've been enjoying each route for what it is regardless of grade, but I'm wary that this won't last and the 'HS should be easy' problem will crop up again.

I suppose this might be seen as a grade mindset.  And I agree it is in terms of the division between top grade and lower grades.  I don't believe I'm grade chasing though - I want to make it clear that HVS is just my 'climbing hard' / 'next step up' grade, rather than a number I'm after, I only added the details of which grade for completeness.  I enjoy those routes because of the mindset I have to get into to complete them, not because of the 'tick' - although I'm also a geek and ticks are good

[Houdini]

Meh!

Just throw yourself at E1's w/ great easily placable gear and a clean dropzone and you'll be fine.

Find a nice grit parallel jamming or finger-crack so you can punch in cams quick as you like and bosh to the top.  Balls to thinking about it.

Good luck.

[Paz]

A state of mind that helps is `this will be hard, but doable'.  That or get sandbagged a bit. 

[cider nut]

Houdini - so never try easier climbs?  Right, got it

Paz - ta.  We gonna meet up for a sandbagging then?  Fancy Clwyd by the way?  Mentioned a possible trip there to AJM...

[Houdini]

so never try easier climbs? 

That's right.

Just how long do you want to consolidate HVS? 

[cider nut]

Just how long do you want to consolidate HVS? 

Well certainly not before I've onsighted into double figures of them (which will hopefully be tonight).  They've only just started to feel a fraction less than very hard, I'm not quite ready to consolidate yet!  When I first climbed HS I didn't feel the need to consolidate, I jumped on a VS after doing 2 or 3 of them.  HVS is different!  Not saying I won't try any E1s, I almost jumped on one on Saturday, and my climbing is so variable that the grade is often meaningless.  But HVS is such a big milestone for me, and that's what this is all about I guess.

[webbo]

once up a time when men were men and sheep were nervous and i had some hair.i went to wales for a weekend at the time my hardest route was grit vs.one of the lads with us was more or less retired from climbing but in his day had done some of the harder routes in wales and the lakes.we asked him what were good routes given our experience.3 routes later i'd led my first extreme.
 

[Paz]

You're going to have to try pretty hard to sell Clwyd to me now I can climb on Sunset Buttress for the next six weeks. 

[cider nut]

Webbo - I'm sure that happens, sometimes it's just about finding the right partner and jumping on stuff.  But this is more a question of getting stumped on easier routes, not succeeding on harder ones...

[Will Hunt]

I failed miserably on Tippling Crack at Caley today. Gutted. Got to the large horizontal break absolutely knackered from stopping to place gear on the slightly overhanging wall and just couldn't do the heinous jamming crack above.

It was rubbish.

[Paz]

Did you not spot that you can get both legs in the break and lie back and wave to your belayer upside down?  I sat on my gear before that bit on my go mind...

[SA Chris]

I was rubbish.

To be fair, I always strenuously avoided that route. Tip Off is more my style.

OP, just regard the warmup as a warmup and don't stress if you need to rest on gear or anything. Also if you are just knocking on the door of HVS (as opposed to solid on it), HSs are not really that much behind. In fact if you choose carefully you can find HSs that are harder than HVS. Nothing wrong with some mileage with a day of S and like to get your rock sense and gear placements sorted at the beginning of the cragging season.

How fit are you as opposed to when you were doing these HVS routes last year? 

[webbo]

Webbo - I'm sure that happens, sometimes it's just about finding the right partner and jumping on stuff.  But this is more a question of getting stumped on easier routes, not succeeding on harder ones...

avoid easier routes.then you only fail on hard ones.

[cider nut]

Chris - thanks, although I couldn't possibly go with the resting on gear suggestion! 

I'm probably not as fit at the moment, but they're starting to feel easier.  No idea why, thought it might have been a fluke but I've done three in fout days now.

Actually you've given me a thought, which is a solution to the problem but a bit of a cop out rather than an exact fix.  Still, it's something I need to do though - I've got FAR too used to cams and I've got so out of practise placing nuts it takes me ages to get a placement I'm happy with.  So only my warm up routes I ought to try to climb them without placing any cams.  That way if I struggle I won't see it as an indicator that I'm not having a good leading day, as in my head I'll be treating them as a different challenge.

[SA Chris]

On grit, that would be quite a challenge.

When you said in your OP

fail on it

I figure that would mean resting on gear at some point.

[cider nut]

Ah right, sorry for the confusion - I meant fail to get up it, I normally downclimb to the ground.

"In fact if you choose carefully you can find HSs that are harder than HVS" - I think this is something useful to remind myself.  However it has the disadvantage that it might make it harder for me to compose myself for a HVS, if I think they're no harder than HS...

[SA Chris]

Ah right, sorry for the confusion - I meant fail to get up it, I normally downclimb to the ground.

Well if you are downclimbing under control you havent really given your all have you? Press on, trust the gear and fight the good fight.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah by the sound of things you're confusing "failing on" with "giving up on". Puts a different complexion on the question as it IS a purely psychological one if this is the case. You're thinking "this should feel easy as I can climb x many grades harder" and so when it starts feeling hard you think "this can't be right" and give up. I often have to look at why I am failing on something which I know I can do and realise that it's simply a case of trying harder. When something's at your limit the default setting is that of trying really fucking hard anyway so you don't have to make the conscious effort.

[cider nut]

Yeah by the sound of things you're confusing "failing on" with "giving up on".

Failing on *is* giving up on in my book.  If you get to the top, you've learnt lots even if you didn't do it in good style.  If you give up before you started, you're jumped wimped out of the learning experience.

Puts a different complexion on the question as it IS a purely psychological one if this is the case. You're thinking "this should feel easy as I can climb x many grades harder" and so when it starts feeling hard you think "this can't be right" and give up. I often have to look at why I am failing on something which I know I can do and realise that it's simply a case of trying harder. When something's at your limit the default setting is that of trying really fucking hard anyway so you don't have to make the conscious effort.

Yup, it is psychological, that's what I was trying to describe.  You've worded it better than me, especially the last sentence   Now what to do about it.  Although just 'trying harder' could well do it...

[Jaspersharpe]

Like Chris said. If you have good gear then you should be falling off (or succeeding) not climbing down. Easier said than done I know but that's what you need to do. Mind you, I don't even own a harness any more.........

[Houdini]

Failing on *is* giving up on in my book. 

Wrong.

Sounds like you are afraid of numbers.  And of listening to sound advice.  Think I did one HVS before my 1st E1 . . .  Choose them right and nothing can hurt you.

[cider nut]

Not wrong, although maybe I should have said it the other way round, i.e. Giving up on it is failing (in my book - that's just the way I see it, not trying to preach it or owt).  What I meant was that if I get up it that's not a failure, as I can learn more from what went wrong in terms of style. 

Anyways, which sound advice have I not listened to?   Perhaps comments like "Balls to thinking about it" are likely to put a person off one's advice...

[Houdini]

Use all the smilies you need, they won't help you here.  You don't need to think to climb.  You just climb.  The more you think the more doubt enters your mind.  The more doubt the closer you are to failure.  It seems reading your posts that you have an answer pre-prepared to shoot people down w/ as soon as they say something.  It gives me the impression that you don't actually want to improve, that you are afraid to embrace what needs to be done.

Have you ever been involved in a mountain rescue?  I've been involved in two.  On both occasions (one involving someone who posts on here) they were fucked up enough to give me nightmares for weeks.  On the first I spent a good hour waiting for a heli-rescue wafting flies from the open wound left by a kneecap that was knocked clean off (this was the slightest injury, mind).  Both accidents occured on very easy but trecherous VS ground. These aren't the kind of routes you fuck about w/.  If you are unsure, unsteady and looking to push your grade you get on overhanging terrain w/ a clean dropzone: no shelves, nothing to hit.  It may feel more strenuous (it is) but it's a fuck sight safer.  That's the advice I give to you.  Give it a whirl, you might even surprise yourself.

[cider nut]

Blimey, I'm not sure where mountain rescue and accidents came into all of this!  My struggles with easier routes is in my mind, not because I'm lacking in technical ability and likely to fall off.

I don't agree that you don't need to think to climb.  And I don't agree that I haven't listened to adice - SA Chris and JasperSharpose made some good points, and I hope I sounded appreciative.  Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm not listening, I just think it's unrealistic advice.  I can't warm up for a route at the top of my grade by getting on something harder.  Especially when I have chronic elbow injuries.  And it just bypasses the original problem, in my OP I already stated I have tried and tested ways round the problem, I was just looking for tips for facing it head on, which the other posters have given.  Not everybody that disagrees with you is shooting you down, and just because I'm looking for advice doesn't meant that all given will be useful.

Maybe I should have posted on ukc after all 

[lagerstarfish]

I think that part of what Houdini was saying was - think about the important stuff to do with the consequences of possible falls before you climb and do your best to reduce these risks by picking routes that are safe(ish) to fall off and then when you are actually climbing, don't let the dark thoughts of falling distract you (as you have already put plenty of rational, sober effort into resolving the issue) and just try your physical, instinctive best?
That used to be my approach and it worked fine for me.
I also think it is important to do plenty of routes that you find so easy that you can think about other stuff whilst doing them - that way you get used to not thinking about the possibility of failing.