[oasis]

What French grade do you think the following would be?
(a) An 8 move Font7a/7a+ into a short French 6c.

and

(b) A 10 move Font 6c into a short French 5+.

 

[nash1]

How about something like:
a) 7b+
b) 7a+

The short easy top bits won't make any difference really. As a rule, I would say 7b+ routes are about the same level of difficulty as a 7a boulder -ish -ish -ish.

[Kingy]

These things are notoriously hard to pin a number on, it all depends on what angle the problems are at, what rest if available between the sections, how long they are etc. There is no set formula. In terms of ball park figures, to hazard a guess:

(a) An 8 move Font7a/7a+ into a short French 6c.

and

(b) A 10 move Font 6c into a short French 5+.

Maybe French 7b and French 7a respectively?

[webbo]

These things are notoriously hard to pin a number on, it all depends on what angle the problems are at, what rest if available between the sections, how long they are etc. There is no set formula. In terms of ball park figures, to hazard a guess:

(a) An 8 move Font7a/7a+ into a short French 6c.

and

(b) A 10 move Font 6c into a short French 5+.

Maybe French 7b and French 7a respectively?

i doubt something thats font 7a/7a+ is going to be f7b.7a/7a+ is going to be hard english 6b or even 6c,there ain't many f7b with cruxs that hard.

[Kingy]

there ain't many f7b with cruxs that hard.

How about Personal Services at Malham, I am sure there are other short 7b's out there. I was trying to compensate for the short nature of these boulder linkups compared to say an 8 bolt route by making the French grade as low as poss. I think French 7b+ is a hard grade actually! The moves may not be desparate on a reasonably long one but they're bloody pumpy and steep if you're not fit - take Sardine at the Tor!

[webbo]

 if i remember correctly personal services is 6b  and the issue is you can't clip till you've done the move. re sardine  why would you try a long pumpy 7b+ if your not fit.

[Jaspersharpe]

I agree with Kingy. A font 7A/7A+ into a 6c sounds a gift at 7b+ although I also agree that it's impossible to generalise with these things and therefore this whole thread is pointless guesswork. 

why would you try a long pumpy 7b+ if your not fit.

To get fit? 

[webbo]

there was a thread some time ago on here about short bouldery routes.an 8a route near honeymoon blues at rubicon was quoted as being v7 i.e 7a+.

[lagerstarfish]

re sardine  why would you try a long pumpy 7b+ if your not fit.

Because I am too weak to get up a short fierce 7b+ and my ego won't let me get on anything with a lower grade (or if it is the easiest route on the crag)

[Jaspersharpe]

Because I am too weak fat to get up a short fierce 7b+ and my ego won't let me get fail on anything with a lower grade (or if it is the easiest route on the crag)

 

[lagerstarfish]

Because I am too weak fat to get up a short fierce 7b+ and my ego won't let me get fail on anything with a lower grade (or if it is the easiest route on the crag)

 

I like you. That is why I am going to kill you last.

Very true though.

At least I don't fail on 4c easy finishes, ladyboy. (I do fail on 4c starts)

[Idol eyes]

What grade would this be... An E5 into an E6,
Highballs though,
But
6b 6C 6C 6C 6B in sequence with no rests?

[lagerstarfish]

What grade would this be... An E5 into an E6,
Highballs though,
But
6b 6C 6C 6C 6B in sequence with no rests?

6c slab, or 6c thug? Isn't 6b approaching a rest anyway?

[Houdini]

a)  H8+

b)  H6


Oh you said French!

[webbo]

What grade would this be... An E5 into an E6,
Highballs though,
But
6b 6C 6C 6C 6B in sequence with no rests?

it would be another grading debate.and as i've just stabbed myself with a sharp implement for getting sucked into this one.
stop now.

[Duma]

Garage Mechanic at the promenade fits the description pretty well and gets 7c. I did think it was a bit soft, but I'm a better boulderer than route climber, and those whose strengths lie with stamina might disagree.

[abarro81]

Hmm... i'd go harder probably. let's not forget that weedkiller's 7a+ but F7c+odd, reve at buoux must be long 7a+/b and is F8a.. obviously those are both a lot more moves and nails for their font grades but the F7b/+ suggested seems a little harsh. jesus, even with the tor routes - 7a+/b and one more hard move = F8a... bloody british undergrading.

[Jaspersharpe]

The difficult bit on Reve is actually pretty short even by bouldering standards. Especially if you have good beta.

The varying grades given (7b to 8a) prove that this is an impossible question to answer.

[Kingy]

I thought Personal Services were quite ard, if you take your brain out and ignore the massive lob potential! French 7b is a tough grade to crack if you've only been sport climbing for a short while. It was for that reason that I thought the crux on this route could not be something like Font 6c, even though its rated English 6b, otherwise it would get far more ascents - the moves before the crux are easy as well as you only have to do the first 2 bolts of consentin.

Admittedly, it seems that the crux of a lot of French 8a's get Font 7a+ and then you have to do some climbing either before or afterwards. How about Connect 4 = French 7b 3 bolt 'mini-route' to a good shake and then a tricky Font 7a+ to finish - this is a benchmark 8a.

Grey areas emerge when short pieces of climbing start trying to be given routes grades when they are more appropriately viewed as boulder problems, irrespective of bolts or ropes. Conversely, long links are better viewed in route grades eg. Pilgrimage seen as a 9a route or V14 bloc??

[IanP]

I thought Personal Services were quite ard, if you take your brain out and ignore the massive lob potential! French 7b is a tough grade to crack if you've only been sport climbing for a short while. It was for that reason that I thought the crux on this route could not be something like Font 6c, even though its rated English 6b, otherwise it would get far more ascents - the moves before the crux are easy as well as you only have to do the first 2 bolts of consentin.

I did Personal Services on cold day early this year (on a top rope I admit, but it was cold and early season  ) - its a pretty hard sequence for a 7b but I don't think its anywhere near Font 7a/7a+ - if the sequence was a ground level boulder problem I would imagine the likes of Ru would have it down as 6c or less.

[Kingy]

I did Personal Services on cold day early this year (on a top rope I admit, but it was cold and early season  ) - its a pretty hard sequence for a 7b but I don't think its anywhere near Font 7a/7a+ - if the sequence was a ground level boulder problem I would imagine the likes of Ru would have it down as 6c or less.

Maybe you're right and Font 6c does roughly equate to the crux on a short French 7b - still seems a bit easy though.

I dunno, it seems incredibly difficult to put a boulder problem grade to a route with any accuracy. I guess it's best just to get out there and climb them!

How about Bongo Fury? Is this the crux of this only Font 6c too?

[IanP]

How about Bongo Fury? Is this the crux of this only Font 6c too?

Haven't done Bongo - I pulled on once, felt the first hard move and there was no way I was pulling that hard on that painful a hold for a 7b!  Interestingly saw someone do it last week by coming in from right rather than starting on the jug to the left and suddenly it looked a load more attractive.

For a bit of perspective - I find font 7a / 7a+ hard to boulder (and I've failed on plenty) but I've think I done most of the obvious 7bs on northern limestone and the majority were first redpoint.

[Kingy]

How about Bongo Fury? Is this the crux of this only Font 6c too?

Haven't done Bongo - I pulled on once, felt the first hard move and there was no way I was pulling that hard on that painful a hold for a 7b!  Interestingly saw someone do it last week by coming in from right rather than starting on the jug to the left and suddenly it looked a load more attractive.

For a bit of perspective - I find font 7a / 7a+ hard to boulder (and I've failed on plenty) but I've think I done most of the obvious 7bs on northern limestone and the majority were first redpoint.

Nice one Ian, I guess we're good at what we do the most. When I did Bongo I just went straight up past the bolts but it was a rather minging set of crimps if I recall correctly!

[Andy F]

The font 7a/+ crux at the start, into a 6c route sounds rather like Chiselling the Dragon, which gets solid 7c. So I'd say F7c.

[oasis]

Thanks for all the comments. And on opening the envelope, the correct answers were...

(a) 7c and (b) 7a+

[Baron]

I believe Zippy considers that the average Peak 8a will have a V8 crux - and he invented sport climbing.

[Paz]

The first example you can fall off the 6c (unless it's like Life is Sweet with loads of nohanders) so it could well be 7c, but the one I did like this (Bullworker) though soft, had a little groove to lead you in, but was then more like a Fnt 6c at best into F6c.  But there's another that again after a lead in is Font 6c into F7a+ (Shock of The New). 

But wht short nails routes surpsingly for a big advocate of French grades like me I find it helpful to think in terms of trad grades. 

Short nails 7b+ is E5 6c (a pumpy one might be E6 6b). 

Short nails 7a+ is E4 6c. 

Ditto 6c+ is E3 6b/c, 6b+ is E2 6a/b, 6a+ coudl be an E1 5c/6a. 
 
So going upwards makes Thing on a Spring (E6 7a) 7c+ (bit under, but it's a slab), The Crack (E7 7a thing near Renegade Master) at Froggatt 8a+ (a bit over but you have to place a wire?). 

All numbers 100% correct to within a french grade either way ;-).

But I suspect a lot of these traditional boulder problem routes in The Peak are undergraded - I even ask you have any been onsighted...  <insert grade debate here>.

[GCW]

The Crack (E7 7a thing near Renegade Master) at Froggatt 8a+  

Probably a better name than "Screaming Dream".

[Kingy]

The Crack (E7 7a thing near Renegade Master) at Froggatt 8a+  

Probably a better name than "Screaming Dream".

This is given 8b in the Power of Climbing. Go figure...

[Paz]

Cheers GCW, the name escapes me. 

Kingy.  I figure the book's got it wrong (if that's 8b, then how hard's renegade master?!) I've got it right to within a grade, or I've got it right that it's undergraded.  That or it's something similar to Parthian - 8a+ climbing, but 8b to place the gear - and everyone's right. 

Incidentally has Renegade seen more repeats than Screaming?

[GCW]

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), but nobody has done Jerry's original finish for RM, which didn't sneak round the right side of the arete.
But, ye- I don't think SD has seen many ascents.

Screaming Dream:  Leach, Moon.
Renegade Master:  Moffatt, Tom Briggs, Bentley, Sellars?, Ben Heason
I'm sure I've missed some, so feel free to add names.


Interestingly RM gets F7c+/8a on The Grit List, and SD gets F8a+.

[Kingy]

Rich Simpson repeated Jerry's original finish up the crack on Renegade fairly recently.

Paz, yes you are right about the grade of SD, probably 8a+ more likely. I was just pointing out that the likes of 8b has been mooted in the past. Yes, SD now appears to be the tougher proposition!! Interestingly it was nearly flashed by Moonie back in the day but he fell off an easy move at the start on his first go.

[GCW]

Rich Simpson repeated Jerry's original finish up the crack on Renegade fairly recently.

Ah, that I did not know.  Cheers.