[belperpete]

 
Update on Lorry Park stuff - Good Time Emporium (7b) and Shore Leave (7a) now resin bolted and cleaned for posterity.
Both ready to climb and enjoy.

[belperpete]

 
Good to hear, from Jon Clark, that a lot happening at Lorry Park today!! Bonjoy, Lucy C, Neil M, Bill Mc, Matt D, Mark n Rob + a load more (identity unknown) made for more ascents than the place has had in a loooong time.
Wish I could have been there to take pictures (damn)! With the high number of top quality routes and not all higher grade (with more rebolting happening before long and good, new stuff coming soon), there's loads to go at for everybody.
I'd like to say a "job well done" to Dom n Dan, Pete Cresswell, Jon Clark et al for development of the place - you can't beat that first ascent feeling in all honesty!
Finally, remember how shit it was on Saturday? Well Turkey Dip would have been a definite 'goer', when other venues may have crapped out - think about it next time the weather's like that!

[Bonjoy]

Has anyone established the sport grade of Jade yet. Have changed logbook entry to 7a, but that's a guess. Is it worth stars?

[JC]

I reckon its probably 6c bonjoy,  you have to do the stiff move at the bottom of rinsemeal first, but after that its pretty easy. Don't think i would give it any stars; just mainly there for completeness.

[belperpete]

Yep, looks as if it should be better than what it actually is. Strangely, it's a prime example of a line that would be more interesting to climb trad - but only if you're into fiddling bits of specifically shaped things into small cracks (hold on, I'm getting a hard-on!). Seriously, this one has been a bit educational for me, in terms of weighing up what makes a worthwhile transition from neglected trad to sport.
NOW, at the moment, what I'm really interested in is knowing what the populace think about the prospect of 'On The Road' at Lorry Park becoming a sport route.
I'm told that there have been a few 'mutterings' of dissent about the retro-ing of the cracks in the quarry, but believe it or not, there were 20+ people at the crag the other day (never been known) and, if it had been bolt equipped, as I'm openly inclined to do, On The Road would have had loads of ascents and been enjoyed by many, that day!
In fact, I know, without reservation, that, bolted, it would be one of the most popular mid-grade lines in the Matlock area, if not the Peak.
However, I know that the popularity argument does not justify going down the bolting route for everything, but I'm torn,at times.
Now, I 'confess' that , having cleaned it, with a view to bolting, I also fancy it as a trad route - but what's the problem in bolting it anyway??
It's a fabulous line (wow factor 10!) but, in terms of tradding, it's got (as I well know, having done it a few times) easy nut/cam placements all the way up it.
What is the trad based argument against bolting it? Is there any greater intrinsic merit (ie for the benefit of our climbing community) in sticking trad gear in to protect the lead, as opposed to clipping pre-placed bolts, or can we not have the choice?
It's already a despoiled piece of rock (via quarrying), as opposed to a 'naturally' exposed bit of rock like High Tor, anyway and offers itself up as a sport venue, so why do I feel dodgy on this one?
Remember, once bolted, you can still trad the route if you want (but don't mix it, for the true experience), as well as choose to sport it but, un-bolted, you cant sport the route etc.
Well, in the great tradition of our sport, I can do what the f**k I want, anyway and await the consequences. I would like a few opinions though!!
 

[Bonjoy]

 I think I'd rather do it as a trad route than another clip-up. Maybe that's because it's well within my grade and I'd like it to be more of a challenge.
 Now that LPQ is getting a a bit more popular it is possible that On The Road might get the occasional trad ascent. If it's as good as it looks then it might lead to good feedback and more ascents. It would never become as popular as it would if it were bolted, but the few people who did do it would get more out of it then the masses who would if it were another clip up. I think I speak for many climbers when I say that trad climbing a line with bolts in it seems a artificial and unappealling exercise. Routes can be one or the other, but not really both.
 I think it doesn't tick enough of the boxes to justify retro bolting, it's doesn't appear loose, dirty, heavily reliant on pegs, lacking natural line or otherwise unappealling as a trad route. It differs from Supercrack, which was not clear cut but a lot more justifiable due to dirtyness and reliance on (defunct) fixed gear. For Supercrack the number of attempts would never have been enough to keep it clean and the pegs would need repeated replacement. But I think OTR maybe falls the wrong side of the line and to bolt it could show a lack of restraint which might then damage the case for targetted retro-bolting more obviously applicable routes (eg. token trad routes on the Cornice - Fey, Shazam, Basic Power Problem; Raven Tor - Obsecene Gesture; some of the obscurer things at Rubicon; and heavilly pegged psuedo trad-routes like Sloe Gin on Plum Buttress and Dancing With Dr D over the road at Bend Tor).
 I think at least for now it is worth leaving as is, it does look an amazing route. I might bring some nuts next time i'm there.
 

[belperpete]

Thanks for that Bonjoy - that's actually a concise, well reasoned argument. Very useful and I have no problem with it.
I'm not sure, but have no experiences to relate to, regarding the 'diminishment of potential trad-climbing enjoyment via having bolts in proximity of trad placements.
Interesting, your comments about '...token/obscure...and heavily pegged pseudo-trad...' and the matching list offered in your reply.
How about I retro-bolt Fey? Done it more than once - excellent, but regrettably not likely be doing it again in my lifetime.
While some took advantage of the situation to climb and enjoy a very attainable classic line, I can well imagine the protest that would arise ('...desecration...etc) from others.
A dilemma, but by letting things stay as they are, without examination, are we sure we're protecting the integrity of our fine traditions or are we just immobilized by inertia? Discuss!
Personally, I think it's a big enough 'issue' to be raised at National level via BMC (but only if you're in to that sort of thing).

Enough of that - any chance Jon and I could borrow the Fostdrill for a while, to supplement our own, in the re-bolting effort, as I'm gonna have more time soon to input over the school hols?

[Bonjoy]

  Fey is a bit of a funny one and perhaps not a good example. A new route (bolts plus one wire needed) goes just right of it and finishes up the same flake i.e does the best looking bit of Fey but via a different start. I made the assumption that Fey was not climbed these days. The fact I'm wrong on that does illustrate that multiple opinions are worth gathering before picking up the drill.
 I agree it's a subject worthy of wider debate.

 You can borrow the drill. As of Monday I am starting working three day weeks  and and will be using it frequently, to re-equip stuff and to get people other people up to speed, so the availabilty will be limited. My own Hilti has a duff battery so until I can get a new one we only have the one. Until more people up here are up to speed the drill will be available at least three days a week while I'm at work. Next week that will be Wed-Fri.

[Johnny Brown]

Personally, I think it's a big enough 'issue' to be raised at National level via BMC (but only if you're in to that sort of thing).

I agree it's a subject worthy of wider debate

There was talk of raising this at the next BMC Peak Area meet. I think its fair to say that the current activists weren't around when the old debates were had and the trad/ sport boundaries drawn. I certainly wasn't.

The other point which El Mocho has been banging on about following his recent trips to Pembroke and Cheddar is old pegs. Probably worthy of a debate as well? Consensus down there seems to be heading towards removing them all, and if the routes get harder, so be it.

[travs]

Couldn't agree more. I've had 2 accidents were solid appearing pegs have come out upon falling on them. One of them hurt me quite badly. It's not just the look of the peg but the worn nature of the placement after people repeatedly fall on to it.

[Bonjoy]

 I tend to a agree about the pegs, although I'm not sure it would work as a blanket approach for all routes on all rock types. As far as Peak limestone goes I think a lot of the routes with pegs in would be much better without, as either pure trad routes or as sport routes. A lot of the pegs are ugly, dangerous, next to good gear and taint the experience on otherwise trad ground.

[travs]

You are of course correct. Each route / peg would have to judged on an individual basis included the ethos of the particular crag. To be fair I was only considering limestone in the discussion, primarily because pegs are few and far between on grit, and have normally been placed because there really isn't anything else there. I guess quaried grit might be a bit of an exception. However, at least with the lime it's acceptable to replace the peg with a bolt ie Hot Fun.

[JC]

Re-bolted and cleaned up some of the sport routes at Willersley recently. Tonight i climbed Blessed Are The Weak (7a+) and managed to flash Hallowed Be My Name (7c+).  Both routes are really good and well worth doing. Recommend taking a clipstick if anyone goes because the first bolts are quite high to avoid the trad routes.

[Bonjoy]

Nice one. I remember doing BatW years ago on some terrible bolts with no hangers. Seem to remember the climbing being good enough.
How's it going on the projects?

[JC]

The project at Long Tor i filled in the seepage holes with resin, and i reckon it might have done the trick, fingers crossed! Normally it would be seeping now, but its pretty dry still.  I've done most of the moves on it, but the first two or three are really hard.  I'm interested to know how James got on with this? Did he put any work into it?  Guessing at the grade it could potentially be 8b/+??

[Bonjoy]

 I don't think he spent much time on it. He reckoned one bit was going to be very hard indeed, at least font 8a, so probably route 8b+ minimum.

[dpb]

Climbed BATW last night and really enjoyed it, def a worthwhile route. 

Took a look up at crown of thorns on the way past too.  It looks to a good piece of rock.  Any opinons on re-bolting this?  I'm not a 100% on the history, only know whats in the Rockfax guide.

[JC]

Nice one. How did you find it? I thought it was quite reachy even for me    Not the best warm up, but there is quite a good traverse along the bottom of the crag as well.  Did you get on Hallowed Be My Name??

I agree crown of thorns looks good, but i think that the bolts would stand out like a sore thumb. I don't know why they were previously stripped years ago though   

[uptown]

Climbed BATW last night and really enjoyed it, def a worthwhile route. 

Took a look up at crown of thorns on the way past too.  It looks to a good piece of rock.  Any opinons on re-bolting this?  I'm not a 100% on the history, only know whats in the Rockfax guide.

The bolts didn't last very long in COT at all. Shame really as it was superb in line, rock and execution necessary.
My opinion would be to replace the bolts again as it won't get climbed without. I remember the original hard bit was always peg protected anyhow.
Is Mine is the kingdom still climbable - I remember that being good too - probably do with some new bolts.

[belperpete]

Yeah, Mine is the ... well OK and to be bolted soon, giving a decent session between the three.
Crown... is a very good line and am tempted. given the scarcity of regular punters at Willersley these days and YES, like most trad venues, it DOES get some attention.
I'm feeling that we really are well into an opportune period for sensitively bolted regeneration of some sadly neglected 'pseudo-trad' lines in the same vein.
How about a few quality and seriously thought out suggestions? For example, I have a watchful eye for On The Road at Lorry Park (having cleaned it up, with a view to bolting, but leaving it as a result of various things heard and read).
Notably, it's been totally ignored, while most of the other newly rebolted and retrobolted stuff have had more attention in a few weeks than they've had in 15/20 years, or whatever!
Bolted, I guarantee OTR would have more ascents this season than it's ever had (cos it's a brilliant mid-grade line). Leave things alone and it'll get a range of zero to three ascents in the next 5 years, if that.

[dpb]

Nice one. How did you find it? I thought it was quite reachy even for me   

Didnt find it too reachy but used a really poor right hand crimp, was'nt the easiest of moves.  Really enjoyed the climbing.  I tried Hallowed and found that very reachy!!!  Are you spaning from the big undercut by the first bolt to the good pocket/slot in the distance?

I too would lean towards replacing the bolts in CofT.  It looks great and cant of been climbed since the bolts were removed, can it?  The only problem, as Jon pointed out, is the bolts may be obvious and I'm not sure whether it would spark up the access argument with the Arkwright's Soc.

[Johnny Brown]

Pete, Jon has written a very sound argument at the top of this page against retroing On The Road. The way you've repeated the question without reference to it sounds a bit like you are getting itchy fingers for the drill?

Willersley Castle is currently a trad crag and has had access problems in the past. I'd hold off bolting until it has been discussed a bit more. There is a BMC Peak Area meet next week which you guys should get over to, Wednesday 23rd July at The Travellers Rest, Quarnford (on the way to Ramshaw from Buxton), start around 8pm I think. Fixed gear is the main item of discussion this time, pegs mainly but I daresay questions like this will be covered.

[JC]

  I tried Hallowed and found that very reachy!!!  Are you spaning from the big undercut by the first bolt to the good pocket/slot in the distance?

Yeah that's how i did it, big move eh?    Then after that you use a shit slopy sidepull thing for your right hand before going up for the crimps over the bulge.  I thought the moves were fantastic   

[belperpete]

Johnny, well responded and, no, not so much itchy fingers for the drill (I can see the danger to the sport in opening that floodgate - see recent North Wales slate forum messages, for example) as a 'pissed-offness'
with the present situation, whereby, for a long time now, a lot of quality lines are being left to stagnate, some with the occasional ascent, being 'protected' by the unquestioned umbrella of trad ethics.
I'm not reaching for the drill to make some, previously inaccessible routes suddenly available to me - I've already done a lot in trad form.
Having lived and climbed most of the trad up to E5 in the area, beginning in the early 70's, I well know the intricacies of the situation. With time, I've moved on significantly, and so has climbing.
It's about time the people who refuse to see another way got their finger out and 'put bums on seats' in a rock climbing way.
By the way, don't forget that access problems will continue at Willersley and elsewhere, regardless of any ammount of discussion at Area meetings. However, we'll certainly do our best to be at the BMC meet, for sure.

[50plus]

New to this forum but I thought I should post that big fences have been erected at LPQ though it is easy to walk
around them at the momement, any one know what the the long term local plans are? Shame to lose such a great
wet weather venue. Easy access is possible from the upper car park near the friendly resident new age traveller with the pit bull this avoids parking in front of the new fences. Great routes but a bit harder for old fucks and shorties.