[i.munro]

Or "the ongoing tale of my attempt to break a decade long plateau."

Hello again all.

Please bear with me while I give a bit of background.
I've been bimbling along at about 6c (without really training) for a loooong time & decided to make a big effort to get a bit less rubbish Big snag  is, I'm the wrong side of 50.

Attempted self-diagnosis (weak arms) so did a lot of gym work increased pull-up strength by about 20%
result: no improvement in grade
Sought the advice of a coach who suggested working on techniques.
I now kneedrop at the drop of a hat
result: no improvement in grade
Sought consensus of others ( too static) Started doing lots of dynos (still not great at these but much better)
however....

Current plan has been to climb (sadly indoors given the weather) more frequently but again I don't seem to be getting anywhere. During last years weights phase I found I made better progress with two days rest after a sesh than one.

Do people think that I'd be better with that than one day rest?
Neil Gresham's Rock & Ice  article about training for the elderly certainly suggests this at my age but then it also suggests it's not possible to get stronger  so I'm choosing to ignore it.


Any thoughts on training requency welcome & thanks.

Ian

[lagerstarfish]

What do you enjoy doing?

Do that.


.... didn't mean to sound like the arse that i sound like i am and probably am, but all my best days bouldering are due to mucking about long term and surprising myself when I have a good day. And as we all know from my extensive research - the best climber is the one having the most fun (or possibly the other way round).

Ignore me. I am bored at/with work and looking to find meaning in my own navel, or summat.

[Kingy]

Your body will adapt to the work that it is subjected to. Obviously the older you are the less well this works but I think it still happens. If you are happy taking 2 rest days then go for that. If over time you feel that you are coasting and need to up the ante, then take it down to one rest day between sessions. Eventually you may find that this is all you need. From a personal perspective, I always thought I would be weaker on my second day and that there was little point in having 2 days on but after a period of increased climbing and training, this no longer held true and I found I was sending strong on my second day. Basically, try experimenting and you may be surprised by the results..then again you may not! C'est la vie.

[lagerstarfish]

What Kingy says is right, but it took me some time to realise that if I am going to have a good second day on, then I must finish the first day on STRONG and not trashed. I am not over 50, but hope to have learned this by the time I am.

[i.munro]

Ok, on trips to the forest I do 2 days on then 1 off & really notice the improvement.
Although I thnk that's largely due to the fact that I ALWAYS lose weight due to noe being stuck behind a desk.

Do you guys train like that though? I don't think I've got the time or dedication to drag myself to a wall 2 evenings out of 3 (|I am stuck in London, getting out isn't that easy)

[SA Chris]

Ian, I have no idea how you climb, but I went from dead static (and relying on my substantial lankiness) to occasionally vaguely dynamic by doing one hand traverses on a vertical wall (like the one they have (had?) downstairs at the castle and along the running track by mile end. Good for balance and footwork too. Try varying between just using hand and just using trailing hand.

I may be teaching you to suck eggs, but I found it a pretty good (if old skool) exercise.

[fatdoc]

what about a variety jolt?

dont do routes? : go to portland for the weekend and climb easy stuff all day long


dont climb in wales?: go bouldering on esorteria in the Pass all day.... then do some slate the next...


or get up to clwyd limestone.... or get seriously lost tramping over hills looking for the boulders in the high lakes....


whatever...



what you need is to do something way off your norm.... enjoy it, love it




and get inspired...

[i.munro]

what about a variety jolt?

what you need is to do something way off your norm.... enjoy it, love it

Probably a good suggestion ...but routes 

[carefultorque]

and along the running track by mile end....

Hey Chris, whereabouts do you mean?  I cycle to Mile End but can't visualise the place you're talking about here.  Is it by the Canal?

[SA Chris]

bear in mind i last went to Mile End in 1996 it may be long gone. Where the big outdoor freestanding boulders are (were) there was a sprint track against the back for the building that had a vertical taversing wall next to it.

[i.munro]

Can't say I've ever been a regular at Mile end but I have no memory of there ever being freestanding boulders.

[carefultorque]

bear in mind i last went to Mile End in 1996 it may be long gone. Where the big outdoor freestanding boulders are (were) there was a sprint track against the back for the building that had a vertical taversing wall next to it.

Hey Chris, I just can't visualise boulders or a sprint track ever having been there! Must have blinked and missed it or perhaps it was during one of my frequent periods of injury!  I think I remember a vertical traversing wall on one of the outside walls but that's long gone. 

Still, the principle of what you're saying could easily be applied elsewhere.

[carefultorque]

I've been bimbling along at about 6c (without really training) for a loooong time...

Jeez I just read this again. Is that Font 6c or English 6c?  Either way, if you can do that with virtually no training, you are a beast!

Seriously, I'd forget about age being an issue except to the extent that clearly, recovery times are gonna be longer and it's less easy to grow muscle quickly.   I read somewhere that a guy in his fifties onsighted a sport 8b.  I know that's not bouldering, but hey, he can probably make light work of a Font 8a problem with that climbing ability, right?

The other thing is had you thought of getting 'stronger' in other ways than pure grip/upper body/ crimp strength?  When we think of a 'strong' climber we are also reminded of their ability to do more circuits, more problems... just more of everything.  Training for that side of being a strong climber isn't going to frustrate you, bearing in mind that it all takes a bit longer to grow and repair tissues as we get older.

You could have an awesome time knocking out problem after problem within your existing grade.  Might that be a good first step before cranking up the difficulty or getting narrowly focussed on that? That broad base of fitness might be just the thing to launch you out of your plateau, if that's what you want.

[SA Chris]

I think I may be confused (old and infirm?), it's been a while. What's the wall under the motorway?

[i.munro]

I think I may be confused (old and infirm?), it's been a while. What's the wall under the motorway?

Ah. The Westway everything now falls into place.

[i.munro]

I've been bimbling along at about 6c (without really training) for a loooong time...

Jeez I just read this again. Is that Font 6c or English 6c?  Either way, if you can do that with virtually no training, you are a beast!

Fontainebleau  6c( Uk 6b  on a toprope on Southern sandstone)  but that's after much work & I haven't done enough at that grade to be sure I wasn't doing soft touches. Voie Michaud, Elephant anyone?

As to beast apparently the 'real climbing2 starts at 7a in the forest. I'm hoping to find out what that means.

[SA Chris]

I think I may be confused (old and infirm?), it's been a while. What's the wall under the motorway?

Ah. The Westway everything now falls into place.

That's the small feline. Sorry, I have been fortunate enough not to have had to use London walls for 12 years now.

[Paul B]

I read somewhere that a guy in his fifties onsighted a sport 8b.  I know that's not bouldering, but hey, he can probably make light work of a Font 8a problem with that climbing ability, right?

Sure ???

I found I made better progress with two days rest after a sesh than one.

Do people think that I'd be better with that than one day rest?

Are you eating right/enough? I can't see that you are if you needed two days rest after a weights session, the 1st few sessions I had I felt like this and it was because I wasn't getting anywhere near enough protein/carbs to recover before my next workout, ok so it could be age but look at this first.

When specifically training power/strength 1 day on 1 day off works well for me, thats because my body needs that day to recover, in the past I've trained conesecutive days but my goals were less power orientated and more directed towards stamina/PE,
 
strength gains during these periods were slow.

What are you training for?

I've also hit a few huge plateau's since I started and the key to busting through them was change and focusing my energy towards one weak point at a time (I'm still to get around to flexibility, its next honest).

I'd also like to add "Get out of london", its a hole and must drive anybody who loves to climb insane.

[carefultorque]

I'd also like to add "Get out of london", its a hole and must drive anybody who loves to climb insane.

 

freckin' too right!  thinking along much the same lines. 

[i.munro]

Are you eating right/enough? I can't see that you are if you needed two days rest after a weights session, the 1st few sessions I had I felt like this and it was because I wasn't getting anywhere near enough protein/carbs to recover before my next workout, ok so it could be age but look at this first.

Fair point. I tend to eat healthily then add a lot of crap on top (chocolate, croissants & coffee).
Would stop if I could.-willpower of a worm.


What are you training for?

Strength & I made reasonable progress (from a pretty low start) once I dropped down to 2 sessions a week (plus a bit of climbing on the same day).


That's what I'm trying but it's a bugger identifying them & there seem to be so many.

I'll be out of London the moment I find a job in France (another thing I've been saying for twenty odd years).
Should have gone the maisonbleau route. I'm not moving further away from the forest! That would be stupid.

[stow]

I'm at a similar level and also aged. It's definitely harder to grow muscle and you need more recovery, both between sessions and between goes. I have though made recent gains by (i) radically increasing the intensity to actually get a training effect and (ii) really long recovery times - like one day on, two days off, one day on, one day off - and more days off if you feel tweaky or tired. The trick is to increase the intensity slowly (but always increase it) so you don't get injured. This works for power, PE or strength.

I'm not sure I agree with 100% of Neil's article - there just isn't a lot of sports science data on old dudes - but the anecdotal evidence is that you can still climb hard even if old. JAckie Godoffe, RAB, Montchausee QED.

Albarracin tomorrow! I am very psyched!

[Paul B]

Fair point. I tend to eat healthily then add a lot of crap on top (chocolate, croissants & coffee).

Useful calories would probably aid recovery more than these

Would stop if I could.-willpower of a worm.

Sorry to be harsh but you can, if you truly want to make a change in your climbing then you'll would do it. Try climbing with a 2kg weight belt next time your down the wall then think what would happen if you stripped away some of your bodyfat? Less fat = Lighter with same amount of muscle, instant gain.

The key to power/strength sessions is stopping strong, I know its hard to do if getting to the wall or board is hassle but you need to stop before you start feeling powered out. You might spend twice the amount of time travelling than climbing but thats that.

N.B. this advice is from a training addict, ignore it all and just go out climbing more it will probably be way more beneficial.

I'm at a similar level and also aged. It's definitely harder to grow muscle and you need more recovery,

Adding muscle is mainly about diet (if you don't believe me go read some bodybuilding forums) but I dont think this should be an issue? Muscle is heavy.

[i.munro]

I have though made recent gains by (i) radically increasing the intensity to actually get a training effect and (ii) really long recovery times

I'm not sure I agree with 100% of Neil's article - there just isn't a lot of sports science data on old dudes - but the anecdotal evidence is that you can still climb hard even if old. JAckie Godoffe, RAB, Montchausee QED.

Albarracin tomorrow! I am very psyched!

I'd be interested to hear details about increasing intensity but I guess you'll be a bit busy so have a good time in Spain.

As for Godoffe et al I suspect they were pretty good at 49 & 40 & 30 I think our problem is getting there
as opposed to staying there.

[webbo]

i too are on the wrong side of 50.for me it would be great to be on a ever increasing grade progression.however life gets in the way i.e. work,stress,family,alcohol,food,injuries plus i've got the best part of 35 years of wank technique to cope with.so my main object is to not get any worse and occasionally do something and suprise my self,so i sort of set myself a bench mark of 7a and this keeps me happy.
with regard to training i find i can hammer it for a week or so then it catchs up with me.last week on hol in tenerife i climbed 3 times weight trained 3 times and swam twice,all in 6 days and on the 7th i was fit for fuck all.
so as said by lagers do what you enjoy.if you like training beast it and sod whether you get any better.

[Ena]

I'm 'only' 44 and find one big difference between now and my peak of climbing/training when I was 30 (and 2 stone lighter) is that I really need at least 2 days rest between training sessions in order to perform at the same level as the last session. If I'm just training that doesn't matter, as long as I don't tweak something, if I then taper before getting outside. But like you I'm a long way from rock, and so doing well at training sessions is mentally important. If I feel like I'm not maintaining/progressing it's hard to keep motivation going.

If I could get out on rock every week I'd hardly train at all, and would probably be much better and have more fun in the process. As it is training becomes disproportionately important. Despite being so heavy I'm climbing as well (or badly) as I did years ago. Now I just need to lose a stone and who knows.

I'd say the key thing is to find little training goals and work towards those. If you need to rest a bit more (or less!) to get them then fine. The other thing is find a younger keen training partner!

[i.munro]

I really need at least 2 days rest between training sessions in order to perform at the same level as the last session.

 The other thing is find a younger keen training partner!

Thanks that seems to fit in with my current feeling about bouldering & my earlier experience with weights.
(great thing about weights, progress is quantifiable.

There seem to be more 40+ers on here than I expected. Perhaps we should set up a "hints & tips for the decrepit" thread.

As to finding younger people to climb with . From my point of view they're all younger. I don't have a choice.

[erm, sam]

You could also keep the rest at two days, but increase the benefit of the sessions you do have. This might suit you more as you have allready said you won't be getting to the wall load more than currently.
You could use a different training process parhaps, eg trying CIR as its called in "The Self Coached Climber".
This is when you climb a number of problems at the same gradeish, with a standard rest time (Continuouse Intensity Repertitions). Over time you increase the number of probs you can do in one session. Eg if you can nail 6b first go on a good day, then doing 5c or 6a probs x10 with eg 2 mins rest in between, increasing to x20 over a few weeks. This results in a great increase in fitness without pushing the maximium effort injury zone. I think this can give you great fitness to use either as a base for some more focused top end intensity training, or to use for that elusive red curcuit blitz.

I have used this a couple of times a week and really noticed a difference in what I could do, at a level above the grade of any individual prob I was training on, if that make sense...

[Vitamin K]

How can you improve or can you keep improving after 40? This is the oft repeated question for the older climber. I'm approaching 50 (3 years to go), but still feel I can keep improving and boulder at a reasonable level (7b/7b+ ish). This is really just down to getting out and training (I have woody in the garage). I did L'Aerodynamite when I turned 40 and put up Right Hand Hank @ Brownstones (V8+)a couple of years ago. OK it's not world class, but I'm happy with it.

At the minute my focus seems to be on running (fells), but bouldering is something I've been doing for nearly 30 years and I know I won't be able to leave it alone. The big plus from my point of view is that the increased level of activity has resulted in a loss of nearly 5 kgs and just from going on my board I know that this will have a very positive effect on what I can and will be able to do outside (OK I have bias to mingingly small crimps, but I don't mind that).

It all boils down to motivation I guess - my biggest problem was breaking a bone in my wrist last November and it was this that made me start running; this has resulted in the shift in focus and I'm finding it difficult to include the bouldering in all of this. Unfortunately, I have a very obsessive streak to my personality, but I'll be drawn to the rock again, I know it.

There are other opinions here, because I asked a similar question a while ago: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7436.0.html