[Jaspersharpe]

  Genius, I was just thinking that.

For Ted the start is a nice warm up. For me it's a power sapping extra set of moves which make the problem much harder.

[dave]

Saw a genius linkup being tried today (if you are that guy, fucking good effort). started sitting as for low left press, do the start then reverse the low right press pockets bit to the start of Bigger splash, then up this, then reverse kudos traverse, finish up kudos easy. fuck knows what this would get but it must be a hefty grade, since Bigger Splash into kudos reverse into kudos is probably a good 7c+ on it's own (not really any easier than press-rev-kudos), then add in all the low stuff!

[dobbin]

Yeah, but there are big rest jugs to have a cup of tea on at the top of the Press. I dont reckon you'd get a really high bouldering grade to be honest. Route grade 8c at least though...

[dave]

for "big rest jugs" read flatty and and incut. in know i certainly couldn't recover on these.

[Jaspersharpe]

I dunno Dave. I have no stamina (or powers of recovery) whatsoever but even I reckon I could get a bit back hanging off those jugs, stood on the rail. It's a pretty cushty position! This link up sounds like something that would be tricky to give a bouldering grade to. Impressive stuff though.

[Andy Harris]

Interesting link.
Tsunami start & traverse to big jugs Font 7c
Big rest (you could even do a bat hang if it took your fancy)
Bigger Splash Font 7a+
Good shake out but not a total rest
Reverse hot fun traverse to easy hot fun Font 7b+/c

Prospective route grade 8b, maybe 8b+

[The Sausage]

Now I'm not saying that Low Right BSD is 7C+ (although everyone I've spoken to seems to think it is). As I was discussing with Sellars and The Sausage yesterday, in a way I'd rather take hard 7C than soft 7C+...

Firstly, good effort - especially in the middle of summer.

Secondly, I think BSD crouch is 7c, and therefore must be 7c+ from the low start. The quote above was more a general remark when a route/problem really is hovvering on the grade margin (e.g. grooved arete, kilnsey). BSD from low right is surely solid 7c+ - the only ones i've done are Lou Ferrino and The Hulk, and i'm sure it's harder than either of those.

As for Ted's idea about the start moves making the problem easier. Well, I thought he was an intelligent fellow...

[Kingy]

I agree this BSD low right is a solid 7c but don't reckon its 7c+. The crux moves are not as hard as the press, which is a solid 7c+. The start adds not very much/ nothing at all to it. It seems a shame to have a needless upgrade on the back of some relatively easy moves. Admittedly I am approaching this from a route climber's perspective where you're kind of used to doing a bit of climbing to get to the crux. eg. the Zoolook start into the crux headwall or even OOMT start into the crux or RAH start into its crux move. Whilst BSD low right is undoubtedly much harder than any of these examples, I think the same principle applies.

For what its worth, I think BSD crouching is 7b+ with the footlock. Do people not use this? I thought it worked really well and could not do the move without it. Is this where the difference of opinion over the grade stems from? I am quite used to using cheating faggotry on classic problems eg. Chimes and Revelations heel toe cams and think problems should be graded for the easiest method available, unless you're talking about eliminates, which i don't think we are here. If the stand up is 7b, some ppl have said 7a+!!!, then is the crouching really 2 grades harder for only 2 more hand movements with the footlock in place?? I didn't think so but then i have met ppl who think its the living end and swear its 7c+.

BTW I was being slightly tongue in cheek saying it was easier from the low right just to make my point!! I was basing it on my experience of the Press Low Right which felt easier  than the crouching version as I felt it flowed better rather than just pulling on halfway thru the sequence which is effectively what the crouching version does. Anybody else find this sometimes, that its hard to pull on halfway through a complicated move and often easier to start from a few moves in on jugs and climb into it?

Anyway, its really hot and greasy down there right now so lets not get carried away when these things are so much easier in baltic temps!! 

[dave]

ted, you're tripping.

if the low right starts were no harder then you'd find that once people had done the kneeling start then they'd be casually knocking off the low right after a couple of goes, or next session, but I bet in the majority of instances this isn't the case.

on the subject of the footlock, i have only been about to do any moves on the kneeler without it.

[Jaspersharpe]

I didn't use the footlock but not because I thought it was cheating. Presumably you have to do an extra move along the rail so you have LH on the sloper RH in the pocket (as discussed earlier in the thread) to then get the footlock in and once I knew I could do the move from LH in the pocket I didn't try the alternative way. As mentioned I needed to be doing as few moves as possible! I'm surprised that it makes that much of a difference to you though Ted as when I first tried the problem I tried the moves with the heel in and it didn't feel secure or that much easier so I just dismissed it as unnecessary faggotry. I admit that I am shit at stuff like that though, I'd rather stick a toe on and pull hard.

Know what you mean about pulling on half way though a sequence sometimes being harder but it doesn't apply for me on this problem. I found linking the start in made a big difference. About six sessions difference in fact.

Joe - funny you should mention The Hulk. Was thinking of going to try this the other day and then realised that it was 15 years ago the last time I went to C********k and I couldn't even remember how to get there. Retard. Can someone PM me please. 

[Jaspersharpe]

Thanks people. 

[Kingy]

if the low right starts were no harder then you'd find that once people had done the kneeling start then they'd be casually knocking off the low right after a couple of goes, or next session, but I bet in the majority of instances this isn't the case.

I'm only speaking from personal experience here with the low right press which went down the next session after I got the kneeling version. I don't know many other ppl who have done it but will take your word for it.

see you down there tonight Dave, hopefully conditions will be a little better than tues!! There will be an 'hour of power' at 8 I reckon once the sun goes down, nice.

[dave]

see you down there tonight Dave, hopefully conditions will be a little better than tues!! There will be an 'hour of power' at 8 I reckon once the sun goes down, nice.

not likely, i don't think i can face another session of terrible nick!

[dobbin]

Never managed to make that heel toe work, but know plenty of others who can milk it for all its worth. The start from the right isnt hard, but do think also bit harder than trivial. I do think I did LR almost immeadiately after doing kneeling press too, but I cant imagine doing any of them in this heat. Blimey. That on its own is worth an immeadiate upgrade!

[Andy Harris]

There is absolutely know way on earth BSD is 7a+. If it is we might as well downgrade every other problem in the world. I've seen this shut down or at least test many climbers who climb far harder. 7b it is an a 1 move 7b is a pretty hard individual move.

For me there is no grade difference between the crouch and kneel version. It is undoutably harder as it involves a. more moves and b. more fatigue prior to starting those moves. The impact of a & b will be determined by your fitness. I'd say they wee botha  solid 7c with the right version marginally harder for the average climbing population but not deserved of another grade.

As for the heel move I've never done it as we always climbed the problem with LH in the pocket. Does it make it easier? Probably. For me it's just another of the umpteen variations and if you climb there on a regular basis chances are you doing it more for the training . So do the easier version 1st, then the harder one, then forget about the easier one and do the harder one with a  weight belt.

If you really want eliminate and probably the hardest version only use the original sequence which involves stepping on all the tiny edge smears rather than the big edges/sloper.

[dave]

rubicon heads up, couple of things I thought worth mentioning for the collectors/consumerists out there:

I know there's a "ned's problem" going from the sloper/pinch hold to the press jug - not sure if its been mentioned on here though, but its a worthy eliminate. Anyone done/tried this? Grade etc?

Whilst trying this last night I did an easier thing, left hand on the sloper/pinch (actually crimping it), right hand on press sidepull, go for the press jug with RH. Possibly a touch harder than BSD (or easier?), but I'd take a rain check on grading it. Would be a good thing to link it from any of the sit/crouch/kneeling starts.


Incidentally when people have been tickmarking holds on this wall, even holds which aren't blind, could they remember to brush thme off afterwards? cos they don't wash off in the rain.