[Houdini]

Yo --

I'm looking for a modern equivalent/s to gash old-skewl texts such as Horst et al.  Who isn't even a sports scientist.

W/ the focus on gaining modern beastitude w/ modern techniques (ie -- increased bodyweight etc..)  Preferably backed up w/ SCIENCE from SCIENTISTS -- if it's climbing-based, then even better.

What do people know about this?  I know there's not loads of stuff out there pertinent to bouldering, but . . .

[Paul B]

Ripptoe's starting strength, its not climbing based though.

[Houdini]

Anyone know where one may purchase bodypacks (some vest that takes added weight) or whatever they are called?

Interesting book and site.  Shame it's not more bouldering based.  Paul_ - write that book will you?  Go on be a sport, I'd buy three copies. 

[Paul B]

a while ago i thought about doing a useful training/injuries links thread.

[Houdini]

Meaning what, were you employing sarcasm/irony?  (I'm uninjured)



But seriously, who else is writing about climbing training right this minute?  Aside from Gresham and other Poodle breeders.

You could corner the market in one and employ the knowledge of the School.  That's quite a resource.

[GCW]

Dumby D has done a fair bit of research/ writing.  Used to be somewhere on his site.

[Houdini]

Gresham's DVD's are like watching paint dry.


Or as Ginger Cain is fond of saying It's like watching paint dry!

[Houdini]

There's always Nibile's guru . . .    Book would be much cheaper though.

[Paul B]

Meaning what, were you employing sarcasm/irony?  (I'm uninjured)

no  

But seriously, who else is writing about climbing training right this minute?  Aside from Gresham and other Poodle breeders.

steve mclure
dave macleod

You could corner the market in one and employ the knowledge of the School.  That's quite a resource.

its simple: basic, fingery, stop strong,however people will always look for a shortcut

[GCW]

It's like watching blood dry.

Have a look at Dave's articles- various under training.  I don't know if you've read them before.
You have to remember Houd, that not a lot of the info out there is based on SCIENCE, a lot of it is "this works for me".  Dylan is another one in the know, I'm sure he'll add something of use.

[GCW]

There's a review article HERE which may help you.

[Yossarian]

its simple: basic, fingery, stop strong,however people will always look for a shortcut

can you elucidate just a little more generously?

[Serpico]

Of the current climbing books, this is my favourite:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LV4O2YpzM-YC&pg=PP1&dq=the+self+coached+climber&sig=qVZSNIzAIG-LGpHqctANv-uF8rk
But It mainly covers chuffing.
For periodisation and strength training try this:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RUowTe6UvbcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Bompa+periodization&sig=ozsuIwVFXH_e79b9bP5QtKQZXNI
And before you strap a load of weights to yourself you might want to plod through this thread:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1644053;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
In particular note the posts by Aerili who's a certified strength and conditioning coach, and Fluxus who co=authored The Self Coached Climber, and is a climbing coach with a degree in human kinetics.

[Houdini]

Thanks for all the info & links.

What surprises me is that many sports science students, especially in Bangor, Sheff, and L'borough will study climbing in some form.  Strikes me as pointless that someone is not collating this info' and putting it on a website or in a book.  Something to build on.

Actually none of my questions revolve around my training needs (being super light is enough for me - and I'm happy - no interest in increased bodyweight exercises, personally) but an interested 3rd party who doesn't post here.

[Paul B]

sorry but not atm,1 finger typing on nhs keypad thing [takes ages]

[Yossarian]

ahhh. well, i will look forward to increased mobility...

[GCW]

Hence Room 101 eh Paul?
I looked on PubMed before to see what papers were around regarding our little sport (peer reviewed stuff is very scarce, and generally crap).  Feel free to have a search and let us know if you find something.  I would myself but I haven't got time at present.

[Houdini]

aerili wrote:


The exercise science literature now evidences that adding resistance to sport specific movements actually DECREASES performance. It has to do NOT with the strength of the muscles, but the way the body fires groups of muscles to perform the movement in the first place.


&

Attempting to duplicate a sport specific movement with unaccustomed movements and loads results in the athlete learning two methods or styles of performance, thus causing a negative transfer. Multiple motor memories adapt, which inevitably leads to confusion. Competitive performance will either suffer or not benefit in any manner as a result.

Quite.  So it seems I'm vindicated by refusing to indulge in nothing but bodyweight exercises.  I took this path 11 years ago after embarking on what I now recognise as an utterly savage weights regime.

Ah . . .   The sweet taste of Tylex is still in my mouth.

[Paul B]

i dont agree
1. for finger strength
2. core, simulating greater forces e.g.hard cut loose
3. static stuff e.g. locks

[Houdini]

It's simple: basic, fingery, strong.

I get it.  The School is to crimps what the Indy (Anglesea) is to pinches.

. . . people will always look for a shortcut.

Which is pointless & a fine reason why the disparate knowledge be collated and published in one volume.

I dont agree.

aerili wrote: - The exercise science literature now evidences

The point of this thread.

[Paul B]

note the word movement, then re-read. Point 2 should be more about 'resisting'

[lagerstarfish]

Anyone know where one may purchase bodypacks (some vest that takes added weight) or whatever they are called?

Well, over on weightvest.com (yes really)..

"I use the vest twice a week while rock climbing, and I have successfully gone in 6 months where most climbers go in 2 years. The vest is everything I hoped, and more. My strength and fitness gains are thru the roof, and the V-Max vest increases the intensity of my workouts by ten fold. The great design allows me to climb safely without worrying about harming my body. If I fall the symetrical layout of the vest allows me to land safely. Thank you for the great design, and wonderful performance."
-Marc B., Gainesville Fl

So, he has knackered up both elbows, both shoulders, six fingers and destroyed his relationship in just 6 months instead of 2 years like the rest of us?

[Paul B]

he's from florida?

[lagerstarfish]

Check out this map with all the outdoor climbing venues in FL marked in red.
There aren't any

Where's the science?

[Houdini]

161 dollars.  82 pounds (not inc. p+p) for the lightest vest.  Hmmm . . .   

[Paul B]

life jacket + sand = croxall

[Houdini]

Absolutely.  I could make one on my sewing machine to fit perfectly.

[account_inactive]

This might be of help

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Weight-Weighted-Vest-10kg-Training-Exercise-Resistance_W0QQitemZ230219014831QQihZ013QQcategoryZ44083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[slackline]

Hence Room 101 eh Paul?
I looked on PubMed before to see what papers were around regarding our little sport (peer reviewed stuff is very scarce, and generally crap).  Feel free to have a search and let us know if you find something.  I would myself but I haven't got time at present.

A quick search on the term "rock climbing" reveals a few interesting hits.  I'm going to see how many of these I can get pdf's of over the coming week or so (although some already have "Free Fulltext" availability status).

Of particular interest (although not necessarily for this thread) will be...

Injuries...

Josephsen G, Shinneman S, Tamayo-Sarver J, Josephsen K, Boulware D, Hunt M, Pham H.  Injuries in bouldering: a prospective study.
Wilderness Environ Med. 2007 Winter;18(4):271-80.


Jones G, Asghar A, Llewellyn DJ.  The epidemiology of rock climbing injuries.
Br J Sports Med. 2007 Dec 7; [Epub ahead of print]


Finger Injuries...

Schöffl VR, Schöffl I. Finger pain in rock climbers: reaching the right differential diagnosis and therapy.
J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2007 Mar;47(1):70-8. Review.

Kubiak EN, Klugman JA, Bosco JA. Hand injuries in rock climbers.
Bull NYU Hosp Jt Dis. 2006;64(3-4):172-7.

Schöffl VR, Einwag F, Strecker W, Schöffl I.  Strength measurement and clinical outcome after pulley ruptures in climbers.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Apr;38(4):637-43.

Moutet F, Forli A, Voulliaume D. Pulley rupture and reconstruction in rock climbers.
Tech Hand Up Extrem Surg. 2004 Sep;8(3):149-55.

Logan AJ, Makwana N, Mason G, Dias J.  Acute hand and wrist injuries in experienced rock climbers.
Br J Sports Med. 2004 Oct;38(5):545-8.

Climbing & Dupytren's

Logan AJ, Mason G, Dias J, Makwana N.  Can rock climbing lead to Dupuytren's disease?
Br J Sports Med. 2005 Sep;39(9):639-44.


And a special one for i.munro (this is meant seriously, not taking the piss)...

3D analysis of the body center of mass in rock climbing. Hum Mov Sci. 2007 Dec;26(6):841-52. Epub 2007 Oct 23.

[Houdini]

So, if you were training explosive power what percentage of bodyweight would ones vest need to be?   I'm guessing it would start lower and have an upper limit?

Cheers Dylan 18 sheets is way better, it's just weight after all.

[account_inactive]

I have a ton of PDF's from when I was doing my PhD.  Send me a PM if anyone wants them.  I'm sure I can do some sort of megaupload..........

[account_inactive]

I also use this program for fingerboarding if anyone is interested

http://www.fileheap.com/download-sweatshop-exercise-timer-21607.html



It works really well for the 7 seconds on 3 seconds off x 7 stuff

[Paul B]

its simple: basic, fingery, stop strong,however people will always look for a shortcut

can you elucidate just a little more generously?

Firstly sorry for my brevity I was typing on a non-keyboard with one finger and i was painfully slow.

The majority of people who go up the board climb the tried and tested problems (around 30 over 3 boards, thats not a lot), these have a few things in common:

they're fingery for the given angle

they're very basic, no dop knees, no matching, no toe hooks, no foot pinching etc. anything that makes a problem easier isn't getting you any stronger...

Thats about it and it seems to work. If you team that with some common sense and don't destroy youself every session you're on to a winner, specific training is for fine tuning. Of course if power isn't your weak point (which lets face it for a lot of people it isnt) you'll probably get better gains training another way.

[Houdini]

Bit off topic this Q but how do you train technique?  Outdoors? Have I answered my own Q?

[Paul B]

Was on another thread, opp of campus board was the title I think.

[Houdini]

I know that.  But my definition of technique is holistic and not focused largely on footwork.  Or vice versa.  Daft Q - forget it.

[Paul B]

Bit off topic this Q but how do you train technique?  Outdoors? Have I answered my own Q?

Be weak so you have no choice other than to learn?  I haven't a clue...

[GCW]

Be weak so you have no choice other than to learn? 

That method never helped me

[Jaspersharpe]

Spot on actually Paul. I developed decent technique because I started climbing when I was 10 and was weak as fuck. The only way to progress was to climb slabs and learn about footwork and weight distribution as I had zero power and I could climb about 5 grades harder on slabs than on steep stuff til I got to about 14 and started getting stronger. Not sure how you can "train" this though!?  

[GCW]

This was done on the other thread, but I suspect the training is mostly mental.  I'm trying not to sound like Dawes here, but some of the stuff he says about learning about the rock etc rings true.  You have to learn something by concentrating on your body position.  Like a move that feels hard until you drop your knee 2cm and then it's piss.

[Houdini]

I think Paul_ is making some jumps that aren't necessary.  Wouldn't call myself weak or against training - quite the opposite actually.  I recognised it was a daft Q - you didn't need to set phasers to kill . . .

[lagerstarfish]

Bit off topic this Q but how do you train technique?  Outdoors? Have I answered my own Q?

Me, I do a few things that might improve my technique. Due to various back problems, it can take me a while to get my feet working properly (can explain this further if needed), but I have found that doing 10 mins of hands free bouldering (outside, obviously) helps to get my lower body moving and balancing better without losing skin or upper body strength. This improves my technique for the rest of the session.
Another thing I like to do is to do problems several times, trying to get them just right (all grades) - even trying different sequences to see which one uses the least strength/effort.
Oh, another thing - when I finally do a problem that has taken a lot of working, I don't just stop when I've done it (as long as I have skin and am not going to injure myself). I try to do it again as soon as I think my muscles have recovered enough (ie 2 to 10 mins after). Sometimes this results in really smooth ascents within minutes of my first, sketchy ascent. I'm sure this helps me to learn technique. This approach needs to be scientifically tested... :thinking:

[Johnny Brown]

Of course technique can be trained and easily improved.

You don't have to be weak to climb weak.

Every time you mule your way up a problem that others do smoothly, go back and do it better.

When you come across a problem that you find hard because you can't overpower it, don't just tick it and move on, do it again and again.

when I finally do a problem that has taken a lot of working, I don't just stop when I've done it (as long as I have skin and am not going to injure myself). I try to do it again as soon as I think my muscles have recovered enough (ie 2 to 10 mins after). Sometimes this results in really smooth ascents within minutes of my first, sketchy ascent. I'm sure this helps me to learn technique.

Amen to that. The bottom line is if you want your technique to improve you can't just be satisfied with ticking stuff. You have to climb it well. In my experince the most strength obsessed climbers are also the most tick obsessed. To improve technically you must put this aside and focus on the process.

As LSF says, messing about in trainers/ hands free/ one-handed is also a great way to improve. You need to be free to really experiment - that isn't a freedom you get from just trying stuff at your limit.

[Paul B]

When you come across a problem that you find hard because you can't overpower it, don't just tick it and move on, do it again and again.

I dont think its always as simplistic as this though i mean its perfectly feasible to climb something smoothly whilst still overpowering it, you need to be able to somehow limit the ability to just squeeze/pull harder in order to ensure that you're being as efficient as possible. I'm not arguing with you by the way, I reckon it can be done, its just a lot easier to do it on the way to getting strong rather than retro learning it.

[Johnny Brown]

I wasn't suggest powerful climbing can't be smooth, just try to use less power.
The key, perhaps, is you can only do this properly if the result doesn't matter - ie you're not trying for success on the problem, just to learn something.
If you're strong but technically dense, learning to do a problem via a better sequence is likely to take longer than it did to do it in the first place. If you're not prepared to put the time in you won't improve - there are no shortcuts! Sound familiar?

[Paul B]

I was merely trying to say that its easier if you CAN'T rely on strength as it forces you to use technique. I was getting back to basics recently under the guise of taking 'Natalie' to the burbage south boulders. 

[Johnny Brown]

Nice work!

A few good ideas from Dawes workshops - the unfamiliar move like the reverse dyno. Great for putting folk on the back foot as its always totally alien. Often new climbers would do these quicker than experts, as they were still in a stage of being open to new movement rather than having a enforced set of engrams.
You have to keep shocking the system with wierdness otherwise the basic engrams just get more and more engrained.
This is part of the reason I don't train (the main ones being it bores me witless and its indoors) - all the repetive moves and no thumbs no drop knees stuff seems to force bad engrams and inefficient movement. Its obvious how it forces the body to adapt by getting stronger, but I don't think it has even a neutral effect on technique in the meantime.

[Paul B]

Hmmm i'm not sure it does you just need to have a few sessions when the limestone comes into season getting your tricks back, for grit I can't comment.As I enjoy steep sport, steep boards are not a bad substitute.

[Houdini]

It still shocks me that a common definition for climbing without power/strength = the application of technique (I think this is a slur to those who have taken the time to develop power and improve kinaesthetic awareness).  Some problems resolutely refuse to be beasted but nevertheless require the holding of extremely strong positions whilst applying difficult technique.  As an example I would offer The Patroniser (woefully undergraded @ V8 and probably full on H8+/H9)  in Beddgelert forest.

Technique is not the sole refuge of the weak.

[Paul B]

It still shocks me that a common definition for climbing without power/strength = the application of technique

you really think that anyone (seriously) believes this or the inverse?

[Houdini]

It's written all over this forum.  Got better things to do than trawl it.

[underground]

Here's something profound. \As a nipper I used to get excited ab
out the scout's ski trip to glenshee each february half term. First year it snowed, I left the trip able to manage basic snowplough turns, nothing else. Next year I was so excited I imagined myself doing perfect parralel turns, hot dogging, all h
that fancy shit. Got there and immediately busted all the foreign shit I'd been dreaming of on the first day. Rinsed it out all week and by day four I was tearing the black runs covered in ice like a motherfucka.

I know that's not science, but it's proper Derren Brown tactics.... 10 yeras before he came on the scene. I wish I'd been a gambler back then too...

[Houdini]

Sounds like a case of perfect visualisation. 

*Eats some 'shrooms and beds down to dream of flashing The Ace*

[Paul B]

It's written all over this forum.  Got better things to do than trawl it.

from my experience it easy to see with a discussion over a nice pint of lime and lemonade that nobody truly believes that  technique is everything or that you can climb to your potential without a good understanding of technique etc. its just net based banter.

[lagerstarfish]

It's written all over this forum.  Got better things to do than trawl it.

its just net based banter.

 

[Jaspersharpe]

 with a discussion over a nice pint of lime and lemonade