[Oldmanmatt]

You need to look at these places in context of the era they were built in. The great cathedrals and monuments that still exist today were built in a time that is simply not possible to recreate now, nor was it in the 50s60s. The architects of the time were trying to create the same impression on a vastly smaller budget.
Durham cathedral, York minster or St Paul’s could not be built now.

Part of this is the overall importance of ecclesiastical architecture today. Building a giant cathedral isn’t the same flex it was in the 1200s. Through the 1960s the US spent 5% of GDP, every year, on sending people to the moon. So perhaps it was more a question of their spending priorities, rather than the absolute affordability of enormous stone monuments.

More cost efficient ways of building tall impressive stuff obviously exist now too. Prior to the Eiffel Tower, the tallest building in the world was the Great Pyramid.

I look out of my apartment window (100 m) and my office window, every day at an 830 metre tower…
We’ve come a long way, really very quickly. Humans (or something that would become human) started making stone tools, what, 250k years ago? Frankly, I live in something that very much resembles the Blade Runner world, visually at least. Drive down the 14 lane Sheikh Zayed road, swooping road bridge’s around you, speeding elevated metro flashing by, helicopters buzzing overhead, all manner of odd vehicles passing you, bizarre towers with alarming cantilevered sections, air conditioned moving walkways, vast shopping malls covering many square kilometres, fountains, lakes, canals.
Either Blade Runner or World of Tomorrow, depending on your mood…

[mark20]

Always worth sharing this in case anyone hasn't seen it. John Redhead climbing Norwich Cathedral

[stone]

Humans (or something that would become human) started making stone tools, what, 250k years ago?

I really liked the series of podcasts about archeological objects in the British Museum. It starts with a 2M year old hand axe https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pwn7m

[Oldmanmatt]

Humans (or something that would become human) started making stone tools, what, 250k years ago?

I really liked the series of podcasts about archeological objects in the British Museum. It starts with a 2M year old hand axe https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pwn7m

I just read a Smithsonian article on this. 2.6M YA. Earlier today I’d watched an old Brian Cox doc, where he’d been looking at the Kenyan Obsidian tools and mistakenly taken them to be the earliest examples. Homo Sapiens are surprisingly younger than tool manufacturing! I should have known that.

[stone]

Even in the UK there are tools that predate Homo sapiens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happisburgh_footprints#Archaeological_context

[stone]

I'm thinking this wonderful AI design would be ideal for Count Binface to promise to build as a new "Lee Anderson Islamic Centre" - if he is thinking of manifesto ideas.

[Johnny Brown]

Prior to the Eiffel Tower, the tallest building in the world was the Great Pyramid.

This is a gross over-simplification I feel I must correct, although (tl;dr) the facts do reinforce your point rather than refuting it.

Several medieval cathedrals exceeded the Great Pyramid in height. The tallest of them was Lincoln, which reached 525ft and was the Tallest Building in the World^TM between 1311 and 1548, when the spire fell down in a storm and the title passed to St. Mary's church in Stralsund, Germany. The grand Beauvais Cathedral in France briefly stole the title in 1569 only to fall down four years later. St. Mary's in turn burnt down following a lightning strike in 1647, and after 500 years the title defaulted back to Cheops.

Or it would have. Time had not been kind to Cheops. By projection of its assumed original height of 481 feet, over time to the present, by 1647 it is thought the desert sands had ground Cheops down sufficiently that Strasbourg cathedral, a medieval also-ran at 466 feet, took the title and whose topmost cross thenceforth looked down on Giza's continuing slow reductions for the following 227 years. Note well that this is ten years less than Lincoln's reign.

From 1870 things began to change radically. Several big European cathedrals were completed, including Cologne, whose construction had begun in 1248 but paused in 1560 (HS2 take note). Its twin towers finally topped out in 1880, at 515 feet.

All of these structures were mostly stone, or stone with wooden spires, barely exceeded the 500ft mark, and were completed for reasons we can best categorise as religious. The tallest of them was Lincoln.

In fact it would take secularism to top Lincoln; only 4 years after the completion of Cologne up rose the Washington Column, the first structure in history to exceed Lincoln Cathedral in absolute height but also the first record holder built with secular motivations. Futuristic it was not. Taking it's architectural and monumental inspiration from ancient Egypt, and constructed entirely in stone, it had more in common with Cheops than anything else on the list and the secular inspiration was the only modern thing about it.

The future though, was waiting in the wings. Only 5 years later Gustave Eiffel completed his grand secular gesture in France, sharing non-utilitarianism with Washington but this time in pure steel. And it was big. At 1083 feet it was almost than twice the height of Lincoln, but would only hold the record for forty years until the coming of the modern era in the 1930's. It was a multi-pronged attack; materials, commerce, utilitarianism. The Chrysler building was only 20 feet taller than Eiffel, but you could rent space in it right to the top. The Empire State topped at 1250 feet only a year or two later (a later pinnacle took it to 1470); the same decade saw guyed radio masts reach similar heights.

From many places on the moors above Sheffield, on a clear day, you can make out a low ridge on the horizon, far to the east. At it's southern tip, just visible, is the pimple of Lincoln Cathedral. In the modern era, despite the lights of Emley Moor (tallest freestanding building in the UK 1971-present) peeping over the moor to the north, I find it very hard to imagine looking across this view in the 1400s to the tallest building in the world, the GOAT of medieval architecture. I've seen the Burj Khalifa rising over distant desert sands, but from the air-conditioned cabin of an intercontinental jet. Whose mind would have been blown the most?

[Yossarian]

I'm not generally not one to big up postmodernism, but I do rather like Johnson and Burgee's Crystal Cathedral in California.

[Tom de Gay]

Outstanding knowledge JB. I suspect Fifty English Steeples by Julian Flannery could be in the Brown library already, but if not, you might enjoy it. The author's thesis is that the best church steeples are located in a limestone belt stretching from Somerset, across the East Midlands and into the East Riding of Yorkshire.

[Johnny Brown]

Thanks, I’ll check it out. Must admit I’m not so much intrigued by churches as tall structures. It’s worth a diversion to Northampton, for example, to see the Express lift tower, a brutalist secular spire par excellence. Plus they almost always have benchmarks on them.

Interesting theory. Portland aside, it’s hard to imagine it’s due to the quality of the building material. I imagine it’s the soil and subsequent farming wealth. When I photographed a walking guide to the Cotswolds I was frequently amazed by the grandness of three hundred year-old farmhouses.

And apologies to Pete, I’d spent an hour typing that bollocks before noticing you’d already said it all with admirable concision and accuracy.

[Yossarian]

From many places on the moors above Sheffield, on a clear day, you can make out a low ridge on the horizon, far to the east. At it's southern tip, just visible, is the pimple of Lincoln Cathedral. In the modern era, despite the lights of Emley Moor (tallest freestanding building in the UK 1971-present) peeping over the moor to the north, I find it very hard to imagine looking across this view in the 1400s to the tallest building in the world, the GOAT of medieval architecture. I've seen the Burj Khalifa rising over distant desert sands, but from the air-conditioned cabin of an intercontinental jet. Whose mind would have been blown the most?

"Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!" cried Michael Owen as he arrived in his chopper with "special powers".

[slab_happy]

Always worth sharing this in case anyone hasn't seen it. John Redhead climbing Norwich Cathedral

On that note, "Climbing Great Buildings" is currently on iPlayer:

https://rydra-wong.dreamwidth.org/908020.html

[Johnny Brown]

Whose mind would have been blown the most?

"Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!" cried Michael Owen as he arrived in his chopper with "special powers".

😂  Outstanding, how nobody pulled the plug on that production is beyond me. As a bonus YouTube suggested I watch ‘fish and rice cakes’ to follow. In bits now.

[andy_e]

Portland aside, it’s hard to imagine it’s due to the quality of the building material.

I think the reference to the limestone must be the Jurassic oolitic limestone belt that Bath and many other places are built out of, which runs diagonally up the country?

[teestub]

Portland aside, it’s hard to imagine it’s due to the quality of the building material.

I think the reference to the limestone must be the Jurassic oolitic limestone belt that Bath and many other places are built out of, which runs diagonally up the country?

Yeah that’s the Cotswold vernacular for sure. For some reason always looks fancier than the Carb Lime and Gritstone equivalents

[andy popp]

Bugger

[andy popp]

Portland aside, it’s hard to imagine it’s due to the quality of the building material.

I think the reference to the limestone must be the Jurassic oolitic limestone belt that Bath and many other places are built out of, which runs diagonally up the country?

Yeah that’s the Cotswold vernacular for sure. For some reason always looks fancier than the Carb Lime and Gritstone equivalents

As JB hints, this is as much or more socio-economic as geological in explanation. In the medieval period these were all very wealthy wool-producing regions and the backbone of the Medieval English economy. I suppose that - ultimately - that is also tied somewhat to geology, but I wouldn't know about that.

[Johnny Brown]

Yes, it was defo wool in the Cotswolds. The wolds found across that band are typically sheep pasture even now, it may drain too freely for crops or often be too steep, I’m not sure. My impression is Bath stone is great for building but most of that band is not. Oolitic means made of little eggs (concretions) which often means crumbly, and by the time you get to the Yorkshire wolds, closer to chalk.

[andy_e]

Loving the intersection of lithostratigraphy, locality and industry, antcedence and inheritance working across temporal, geological and cultural palimpsests.

Bugger

I also agree with this

[teestub]

Loving the intersection of lithostratigraphy, locality and industry, antcedence and inheritance working across temporal, geological and cultural palimpsests.

This is a good one if you haven’t seen it before https://deepseanews.com/2012/06/how-presidential-elections-are-impacted-by-a-100-million-year-old-coastline/

[tomtom]

Portland aside, it’s hard to imagine it’s due to the quality of the building material.

I think the reference to the limestone must be the Jurassic oolitic limestone belt that Bath and many other places are built out of, which runs diagonally up the country?

Yeah that’s the Cotswold vernacular for sure. For some reason always looks fancier than the Carb Lime and Gritstone equivalents

As JB hints, this is as much or more socio-economic as geological in explanation. In the medieval period these were all very wealthy wool-producing regions and the backbone of the Medieval English economy. I suppose that - ultimately - that is also tied somewhat to geology, but I wouldn't know about that.

There is also the idea of these churches and cathedrals of being an expression and reminder (to the locals) of the power of the church, In much the same way as King Edward built the 'Ring of Iron' castles around Wales - of limited strategic value they were mainly there as a both a reminder of who was boss and a middle finger to the local and oppressed population.

I have a Dutch colleague who describes the cathedrals of the Netherlands as islands on the sea of land. How on a very flat landscape the tall spire of a church could be seen for many miles and would be symbolic for both navigation but again for the importance of the church on the landscape. Its similar with Beverly Minister - and Selby Minister (in particlar standing out for miles around - though now rather dwarfed by Drax...). Which is perhaps not too surprising as the Dutch were fundamental in draining the landscape of both East Yorkshire and the washlands over to the edge of the Mag lime near Doncaster.

Whilst I'm here and rambling - most of Doncaster is subsiding, Except for the cathedral. There is extensive coal mining across the region and under the city - but was not permitted under the footprint of the cathedral.

[Tom de Gay]

Portland aside, it’s hard to imagine it’s due to the quality of the building material.

I think the reference to the limestone must be the Jurassic oolitic limestone belt that Bath and many other places are built out of, which runs diagonally up the country?

Yes it’s the oolitic limestone which was the absolute business when it came to busting out the spindliest spires and the best-looking ballflowers. For durability and workability the bubbly Jurassic stuff seems to be unequaled.

When it came to building the Palace of Westminster in the 1840s, the maglime Anston Stone was selected. Whilst it might be good for crimpy bouldering with a decent spread across the grades, it was a poor choice of building material in coal-burning London and was trashed within a decade. It the 1920s it was repaired with the harder-wearing oolitic limestone from Lincolnshire.

Regional wealth and influence must play a significant part in the distribution of the ‘top fifty’, however the South East is conspicuous by its absence. Perhaps London had mitigating circumstances – what with the whole city burning down – but I’d have thought Kent would have been well-heeled, being productive farmland and home to the most important cathedral in the country. But when it came to church steeples, it seems they had neither the masons nor the materials to produce works of lasting significance.

As an aside, the book includes the accounts for the construction of the church in Louth. In an all-too-familiar turn of events, progress was seriously hampered by master mason ‘Xpoforo’ going off onto other jobs before the work was finished. Messengers were dispatched to find him to no avail, work was paid for but not done, and after a decade or so of delays new contractors were brought in to finish the job.

[SA Chris]

I remember it being an average novel, but Pillars of the Earth goes into Cathedrals and Architecture in some detail which I enjoyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth

[teestub]

Regional wealth and influence must play a significant part in the distribution of the ‘top fifty’, however the South East is conspicuous by its absence. Perhaps London had mitigating circumstances – what with the whole city burning down – but I’d have thought Kent would have been well-heeled, being productive farmland and home to the most important cathedral in the country. But when it came to church steeples, it seems they had neither the masons nor the materials to produce works of lasting significance.

Apparently the Normans imported their own stone of choice for Canterbury https://info.amarestone.com/blog/caen-limestone-its-place-in-english-history

I’ve deffo been to some nice churches in Kent, but I guess they’ve generally been of that flint and mortar type build, little tower rather than a big spire.

[Tom de Gay]

Apparently the Normans imported their own stone of choice for Canterbury https://info.amarestone.com/blog/caen-limestone-its-place-in-english-history

Indeed, oolitic again.