[Somebody's Fool]

John Perry.  Who is local, and a bit of a legend.

    

[Pantontino]

I didn't realise Jerry had onsighted Master's, I thought there had been abseil inspection. Which is how Johnny practised Indian Face, not by toproping. I'm not in favour of either but when repeats utilise repeated toprope ascents its worth making the distinction.

I was always under the impression that Johnny did top rope practice IF - I doubt that he beat it into submission as is the norm nowadays, but a headpoint ascent nonetheless. See the following quotes from John Redhead from a radio programme first broadcast on radio on the  19th of April 1997. Titled "Movement on Rock" it featured a  'discussion' between John Redhead (JR), Johnny Dawes (JD) and others about the first ascent of the Indian Face

JR. The Indian Face was actually top-roped and the gear was pre placed. They didn't like the idea of the bolt but they would top-rope and pre place little nuts in the crack, and the Indian Face was eventually climbed using those tactics which as far as I am concerned is quite shoddy.

JD. There is two types of learning, there's experience and there is proxy knowledge, but you can't form knowledge that you can trust unless you have an experience of something and climbing something like Indian face which doesn't need a name at all and in some ways it would be nice not to have a name for it, makes you...(pauses) it is just too difficult a challenge.

JR. I never climbed the Indian face , no, and since Johnny top-roped and all that furore about all that I have never been back. As far as it goes I am quite pleased with what I did, I think I achieved more than by actually climbing the Indian Face, but the day will come when someone will come along and climb these routes on sight and that will put what has gone on in perspective. What has gone on is ego and it is a little bit shoddy and I think it damages the rock.

I wouldn't agree three years is a long time ever, as every year goes by it amazes me more how much Johnny did just in 1986.

JD certainly did have an amazing year in 86, but 3 years was a very significant amount of time back then. In 83 8a didn't really exist, at least not in England and Wales, by 86 we had jumped to 8b (Zeke); a reflection of the massive changes sweeping through climbing culture at the time.

I'm not alluding to any unknown international ascents by Johnny, just suggesting you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.

As others have said Jerry's international profile was always bigger - which considering what he did abroad, is well deserved

[cofe]

you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.

time for this again i feel

[Paul B]

lets just see who wins in a fight

damn

[Johnny Brown]

Result! Not just twice the number, a million more!

you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.

For the less travelled amongst you, I was talking about Yosemite.

Panto, notice in that interview only JR used top-rope. JD has told me pretty much all his routes were done with abseil inspection, obviously involving practising moves but much more difficult to string sections together. Mind you I've also had an hilarious tirade from Pat Littlejohn about JR being full of shit and using abseil practice and cleaning just as much as everyone else at the time!

[grimer]

Yeah, there's all that stuff about JR doing Master's Wall on sight, but Jerry said that he did the line he did because he had watched JR abseiling down the wall to resin up the foothols that traversed out to Spreadeagle.

[Pantontino]

JB, first you summon JR as a star witness to trash Moffatt's reputation, then when the tables are turned on your hero, you try to trash JR's reputation with some random attack from Littlejohn (the great anti-bolt campaigner, whom, lest we forget, bolted Cilan Main of all places! - see how easy it is to throw mud).

Anyway, straight from the horses mouth: Johnny being interviewed by David Atchison-Jones in The Power of Climbing, 3rd April 1991:

DAJ: When you try a route and don't do it onsight do you think you should leave it alone?

JD: I'd like to have had the time to try Indian Face on sight, but I think people would have done the same thing as me basically, I was forced into top roping it a lot by really wanting to do the climb.

A pretty non-subjective statement there from Johnny, dontchya think?

[AndiT]

I think, from watching stuff like the 'story of indian face' that some confusion arises due to the use of 'headpoint'. Now-a-days we use it for any prepracticed ascent, back then Nick Dixon explains that headpoint was when you top roped a route to a point that you could climb it subconsciously. With Indian Face being so long, they say that can't head point it as there are too many moves, hence the confusion as he top roped sections of it, but didn't headpoint it as such.

John Perry, the cover boy of the yellow staffs guide, is a true local legend.

[Johnny Brown]

Si, my point was history is about as clear as mud, I'm not trying to put anyone on a pedestal. Johnny's comments to me have been different, what is pertinent is whether JM abbed Master's, not so much whether JD practiced IF move on belay or ab. Entertaining as this debate is, its not serious, is it? And if it is, surely the googlefight more than settles who has been more influential anyway.

Andi, I guess having coined the term Nick has the right to define it but I'm not convinced anyone other than himself has ever subscribed to this 'subconscious' style of ascent as the meaning of the term, least of all Johnny.

[andy popp]

Oh, what larks!

[Paul B]

surely the googlefight more than settles who has been more influential anyway.

Damn you! 

[Pantontino]

JB, History is, as you say, muddy; this thread demonstrates that much.

By the way, Jerry most definitely did not onsight MW: by his own admission, "It was not on sight but also not as well prepared as it could have been."

"As Jerry moved past the site of the bolt the whole crag stopped to watch. Strung out, Jerry called over, asking advice where the next holds were. About 4 feet above were a chalked set of edges. Fingers on layaways, and feet smearing, Jerry went for it, hung the edges and got himself sorted out. At the time it was the most impressive, bold and serious bit of climbing I'd ever seen." Ian Carr in the recent Cloggy guide.

Ian Carr also made the following comment: "The line was well prepared and top roped a number of times and completely chalked." Which was news to me - I'd always assumed the reason Jerry ended up so strung out was because he hadn't top-roped the line and was sketching on unknown sequences.

 

[AndiT]

Andi, I guess having coined the term Nick has the right to define it but I'm not convinced anyone other than himself has ever subscribed to this 'subconscious' style of ascent as the meaning of the term, least of all Johnny.

The thing is, if some people see the meaning of 'Headpoint' as different things, then this does go a long way to explaining some of the discrepancies in the history books. Because someone didn't headpoint a line doesn't mean they on-sighted it either, it appears to me that the exact details of the ascents are all that seperates them in quality of style, which can be very vague indeed. We can see that with Ian Carrs's comment of the route (MW) being well prepared on a top rope and completely chalked, this doesn't mean it was climbed or practiced on a rope does it? It could equally be seen as a route which was cleaned and holds marked with chalk, ok it's no on-sight but it isn't a prepracticed ascent either leaving a lot of doubt as to whether the line is climbable by the ascentionist...

[Jaspersharpe]

Anyway, straight from the horses mouth: Johnny being interviewed by David Atchison-Jones in The Power of Climbing, 3rd April 1991:

DAJ: When you try a route and don't do it onsight do you think you should leave it alone?

JD: I'd like to have had the time to try Indian Face on sight, but I think people would have done the same thing as me basically, I was forced into top roping it a lot by really wanting to do the climb.

A pretty non-subjective statement there from Johnny, dontchya think?

Although not really relevant I wouldn't go quoting stuff from the interviews in TPOC as gospel. Dave Jones was never one to let the truth get in the way of a good story and although they are written as if it's all "straight from the horses mouth" it most certainly isn't. FWIW I'm sure Johnny said he top roped IF but as mentioned it's not the type of route you can "headpoint" in the way described.

[AndiT]

 

Incidentally, talking of Power Of Climbing, I made my misses look at this book on Saturday night trying to get some interest out of climbing from her and the result was this:

In order of 'fitness'

3. Jerry Moffatt (partially infuenced by his assumed bank balance)



2. Jasper Sharpe



1. Andy Pollitt, so much so that she had to go back to that page for another look. She's always liked a man in a hat.

[Jaspersharpe]

Beaten by Pollitt. FFS.

[AndiT]

Yeah, and in the lead for so long, sorry dude. But it was no contest when she saw what effectively looked like Johnny Brown in a hat...

[Jaspersharpe]

I'ts ok. 

I suppose in the context of this thread then beating Jerry will do.   

[Johnny Brown]

Well we all know the ladies love Pollitt, however Airlee has told me (repeatedly) that the general consensus of 'fittest climber ever' amongst the women's scene is Chris Wentworth as pictured on Red walls on the cover of OTE. Both contenders have suffered from their subsequent histories though, and lately I believe a certain dream-eyed, long limbed youth with a lancashire burr to his softly spoken words may be angling for the title.

[Fiend]

however Airlee has told me (repeatedly) that the general consensus of 'fittest climber ever' amongst the women's scene is Chris Wentworth as pictured on Red walls on the cover of OTE.

Wouldn't surprise me, he does look pretty tasty on that cover in a dishevelledly handsome bohemian artist sort of way. If you like that sort of thing.

[AndiT]

lately I believe a certain dream-eyed, long limbed youth with a lancashire burr to his softly spoken words may be angling for the title.

John Redhead? Thought he was from Hull?

[Johnny Brown]

You Leek lads are priceless! Its not 1980 you know.

[AndiT]

Its not 1980 you know.

What!!! Since when!

[andy_e]

Since 1981 

[mini]

. . . and lately I believe a certain dream-eyed, long limbed youth with a lancashire burr to his softly spoken words may be angling for the title.

That would be me then!!!!