[Andy F]

I was digging out a few CD's I hadn't heard for a while and stuck on some of the old grunge classics (Alice in Chains, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Screaming Trees, Smashing Pumpkins etc) and was amazed at how good they still sounded all this time later. Then I stuck on Nevermind and found I cound't stand it! Anyone else think that Nirvana haven't stood the test of time?

[Dr T]

bleach is still a good album though, I always prefer the way the nevermind tracks sounded on from the muddy banks of the wishka (or the reading bootleg I had on tape...)

[GCW]

Sorry Andy, but no!!
Nevermind in my opinion has done very well.  Parts of Bleach have aged more, In Utero I never liked anyway.

Must admit I loved Mudhoney, Black Fucking Flag, Butthole Surfers and L7.  Nice.  

[Dr T]

L7.

love those girls, the flashing incident on the word will always stay with me

talking of the word, never forget the lemonheads playing Mrs Robinson live,
listen to them not long ago and the Juliana Hatfield three....

[Andy F]

In Utero I never liked anyway.

 

That's 'cos it was a bag of anyway. IMHO 'Vs' kicked it's arse.

[Paz]

In Utero was my first Nirvana album so I like it.  I have it and Nevermind on cassette tape, so they get played whenever I hire/drive an old banger with no CD player, and they've never let me down. 

One thing I was confused about with Penny Royal Tea and the album name, and similarly with `We are all of epic proportions' from The Holy Bible by the Manic Street Preachers (though you can trace that down to an arty quote in the sleeve jacket of Generation Terrorists that describes all males "essentially" as walking abortions, missing something (which is not how I interpret the discovery of XX/XY chromosomes but "oh well, whatever, nevermind") and what the "Shalom" shit is about, I really do not know) was why Nirvana and the Manics were never destroyed by NME for (as they are phrased ) pro life views like Symposium were.  Symposium were one of my favourite bands (especially live) until I relistned to their stuff recently and (similarly to the OP) was nonplussed, and all they and we (their fans) ever cared about was creating fucking well good Mosh Pits.  Halcyon days at the Sheffield Octagon, I tell you.  The only logical conclusion I could draw from this (not being arsed to trace down the individual opinions of 10-a-penny NME writers) was that the popular music press, like religious dogma, was -and still is- full of  shit.

I have referred to a now obscure mid-90s album and late-90s guitar band, but I think if anyone can be arsed to investigate further by listening to them they will not be (too) dissappointed

[GCW]

I tried watching the Word, but Terry %&$@ing Christian really annoys me.  Can't stand the man.  Shame really, otherwise it was a fun show.

[Houdini]

In Utero pisses on Nevermind for so many reasons.  Quite why a rockband would willing allow themselves to be recorded and polished by that horses' ass Butch 'du Homme' Vig is beyond me.  It has aged terribly - tres poor.  Bleach is primo - the guitar on Lovebuzz still blows my mind after all these years.

Black Fucking Flag!!  Or rather The Jesus Fucking Lizard!!

[GCW]

Woah, I've got The Jesus Lizard self-titled album somewhere- class stuff.  I'll dig it out now and have a listen.
I quite liked Saigon Kick, especially the earlier (less harmonious stuff).  Good sounds!

[Dr T]

L7 in full glory...



one of my favourite "grunge" bands was an international affair, fronted by a tranny, who (if I remember rightly) most wrote off as a flash in the pan, one decent album the implosion etc etc...

man I still love Placebo

then


now

[Paz]

Re:

a)  Nevermind does indeed piss on In Utero (even given my tape's nearly chewed up) but In Utero really isn't -that- bad all together.  I mainly got it (pre KC death) because I'd heard Heart Shaped Box on MTV (being ignorant to Teen spirit, Stone Roses and the manics etc. at the time) and while Nevermind's a lot better - I own a lot worse.  It was good to hear it again.

b)  With my NME conspiracy.  You know I hate taboos.  I know Nirvana never won any prizes for lyrics, but think bands in general can fall into the trap of getting carried away with being political and controversial for the sake of it, even just referring to issues without having any actual point to contribute.  The puzzle songs I mentioned are fucking crap.  Even on other issues, the manics, SYMM, fucking waste of space shite song.  Maybe they got self conscious about putting out another perfectly acceptable AOR esque album that touched on accessibility (that would never please the hard core embarassment nut case fans) and tacked SYMM on the end after a shit Jimmy McGovern documentary.  Not singling out Andy F or Scouse, noone in Liverpool seriously thinks what happened at Hillsborough was murder do they?  I know the difference between Murder and Manslaughter - the same as that between Loitering and Loitering With Intent - is subtle, but I know a plain fuck up when I see one.

c)  Given the tragedy of Cobain's death that some hype it up to be, Nirvana weren't just a simple `1-troubled genius and two session musicians' operation.  Considering we got the Foo Fighters out of it we music fans ultimately didn't do that badly out of the episode.  Awesome band, and damn good live.

[al]

Must admit I loved Mudhoney, Black Fucking Flag, Butthole Surfers and L7.  Nice.

listened to 'rembrant pussy horse' today and it is more scary than ever
also downloaded the slint stuff (spiderland) after a newspaper article mentioned it this week - had never heard it back in the day, but grunge it certainly is!

never liked nevermind much myself - too smooth, not enough raggedy edges

[andy popp]

Agreed Al. Plus Nirvana just weren't very good the time I saw them live whereas Butthole Surfer gigs were always total brilliant mayhem.

[GraemeA]

And its about time someone mentioned Firehose, a class band. Remember hitching up to the NE to see them with Martin Hunter.

[Dr T]

the reading/leeds sets from dinosaur Jr and Smashing Pumpkins are on the BBC music website at the moment
(plus an excellent set from enter Shikari but thats not exactly grunge....)

[al]

Martin Hunter

how about him 15 yrs on?

[Houdini]

Q:  Why would anyone mention fIREHOSE when they could mention Minutemen?

Rapeman, now that's what I call rock music.  Herr Popp - I am GREEN with envy you lucky lucky bastard.

(A:  Because they all happened more than 15 years back?)

[andy popp]

Q:  Why would anyone mention fIREHOSE when they could mention Minutemen?

Rapeman, now that's what I call rock music.  Herr Popp - I am GREEN with envy you lucky lucky bastard.

(A:  Because they all happened more than 15 years back?)

Well, yes, Minutemen were great but firehose were mighty, mighty fine live. And the jealousy, is that for seeing Rapeman (with Dinosaur Jr on the same bill) or the Buttholes? If the latter then, just to rub it in a little, I once saw them twice in three days.

[granticus]

fIREHOSE!!  Minutemen!! I thought I was alone!  Love both bands, love Mike Watt's 'thunderhog' (bass) playing...   Have trawled through my old vinyl collection recently...  Definately some grunge bands that have stood the test of time.  In particular these are all still worth a listen IMHO...Soundgarden, Shellac (Steve Albini's band), Skin Yard, The Melvins, Sonic Youth, Pixies, Fugazi...  I know some of these might not fit into the 'grunge' category but they either influenced the scene heavily or made an impression around the same time.. 

I'm not convinced that these bands are still worth listening to I couldn't listen to more than one track ...  Pearl Jam, Mudhoney, Alice in Chains (loved them at the time but....), Stone Temple Pilots...

  Bleach is the best offer from Nirvarna, the production has the right 'feel' for that band....   

[Houdini]

And the jealousy, is that for seeing Rapeman (with Dinosaur Jr on the same bill) or the Buttholes? If the latter then, just to rub it in a little, I once saw them twice in three days.

Never cared for the Buttholes or Dinosaur JR.  But seeing Rapeman, indeed, I'd wager that was a satisfying gig. Rey Washam must be one of the most gifted drummers ever.  And the bassists' next band was the Jesus Lizard.  I'd give my eye/teeth to go back in time and see either Rapeman or TJL.  I love the Two Nuns and a Pack Mule LP but I'm super keen for the Budd EP: it's ridiculously good.

I thought I was alone! 

No no!  This forum is full of old punks.  Mostly younger than Webbo, mind!

Shellac

Welcome Granticus!  I don't know a finer rock band.  Still kickass, still original, still making great great records, still kicking out the jams motherfucker.

The Bleach production:  Aye, it all about feel, hence my comments about Nevermind:  Butch Vig turned an edgy punkrock band into a saccharine pop band. It was a very unflattering way to present such a group (which incidentally I can't say I ever really dug that much).  In Utero at least attempted (via  Albini recording it) to set the record straight.  Shame Geffen fucked it up by tampering with his recording at the mastering process.

I think most grunge (whatever that means) was wank.

[SA Chris]

I do still like to put on Mudhoney's Overblown while driving occasionally.

[Falling Down]

I watched 'We Jam Econo' (Minutemen Documentary) again last week... well worth watching if you were/are a Minutemen and fIREHOSE fan.

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but there's a pretty good book covering the period in question called 'This Band Could Be Your Life' by Michael Azerrad (named after the classic line from Minutemens History Lesson Part II) that has a load of interesting stories and stuff that I had no idea about at the time.

Houdini - Heresy perhaps, but as I get older I find fIREHOSE more accessible and contemplative than the Minutemen recordings (apart from DoubleNickles). I love fROMOHIO..

As for the rest of the grunge thing.. I never quite got it.  I listen to Pearl Jams 10 now and again and it reminds me of pulling down in the cellar at Edgedale Rd (Jasper might remember) although I liked the second one best with the camel on the cover.  Alice in Chains and those other bands were all shite.  As for Nirvana, I seem to know most of their material but don't own any of it.  That Mudhoney EP with In and Out of Grace is a cracker though...

One group that were massively overlooked at the time IMHO were The Masters Of Reality who released a brilliant self-titled album produced by Rick Rubin sometime in the late 80's/early90's.  Someone had Lemon Jelly's last album on in the car and lo and behold they'd sampled one of the best tracks of it.

[granticus]

Cheers Houdini! 
Just to boast a little bit... I have seen Shellac, was either at the Pheonix Festival or Reading, festivals have all rolled into one blurred memory in my mind! However, I clearly remember that they were incredibly tight and very funny, quality band indeed!  Also saw Jesus Lizard in Wolverhampton, truly a wonder to behold.  They were supported by a band called Stanford Prison Experiment, who are/were quality too..  Well worth seeking out if you haven't heard! 
Haven't seen the Minutemen docco will definately seek it out

[Houdini]

That's some tick with TJL... I'm jealous, again.  I have only their live LP 'Show' as a reference.  I have a Stanford Prison Experiment record knocking around someplace... 

Saw shellac around the time 'At Action Park' came out.  They were supported by Brick Layer Cake who were Shellacs' drummer, Todd Trainer on guitar, Shellacs' bassist Bob Weston on bontempi organ, and Albini on drums.  They were fab too.  But they had nothing to do with grunge...  Much like the Minutemen.  fIREHOSE weren't bad at all, well, certainly not around the time 'From Ohio' came out.  But after Minutemen disbanded when Boon was killed...  It's like settling for New Order when you were raised on Joy Division.  Not the real deal... And they weren't communist enough for my liking.

[GraemeA]

Martin Hunter

how about him 15 yrs on?

He tracked me down a couple of years back, phone call out of the blue. He was living somewhere in the south of France, apparently in the area where the Da Vinci Code is set (he had some ideas about making cash out of tourists) and doing up someone's house. It was around the time that Meeta died as I called Martin to tell him about.

It was great to hear from him, he seemed compus mentus.

[Bubba]

It was great to hear from him, he seemed compus mentus.

Good news indeed

[al]

agreed bubba

he had some ideas about making cash out of tourists

that entrepreneurial streak ran deep 

[Fiend]

Hi. Anyone got a MP3 link to Mudhoney's Suck You Dry? I remember really liking that.

P.S. Not really grunge but around at the same time, no-one (not even Andy F) has mentioned The God Machine yet???? Shocking.

[Dr T]

P.S. Not really grunge but around at the same time, no-one (not even Andy F) has mentioned The God Machine yet???? Shocking.

in the same vein -Sugar -Copper blue .... classic

[Andy F]

Hi. Anyone got a MP3 link to Mudhoney's Suck You Dry? I remember really liking that.

P.S. Not really grunge but around at the same time, no-one (not even Andy F) has mentioned The God Machine yet???? Shocking.

Ah, The God Machine, possibly the best of the lot. Scenes from the Second Story is indeed a piece of fractured beauty. Goes for a few quid on Ebay nowadays, if you've got a copy then keep hold, same with One Last Laugh in a Place of Dying (for our friend Jimmy Fernandes).

[GCW]

Hi. Anyone got a MP3 link to Mudhoney's Suck You Dry? I remember really liking that.

Sorry Fiend, missed that.  Good tune, not their best in my opinion, but still good.
PM me if you haven't got it......

Forgot to mention Fudge Tunnel.

[Andy F]

P.S. Not really grunge but around at the same time, no-one (not even Andy F) has mentioned The God Machine yet???? Shocking.

in the same vein -Sugar -Copper blue .... classic

Copper Blue, indeed a brilliant album. Shame FUEL wasn't anywhere near as good

[Andy F]

L7 in full glory...

man I still love Placebo

then


now

I had the rather distinict pleasure of getting royally hammered with both Bush and Placebo after their gig at the Krazy House in Liverpool in late '94. Placebo came on stage and my girlfriend of the time (now wife) watched them thinking "is it a boy, is it a girl?" for the whole set, but the truely rocked. Bush were great as well, I've still got a signed set list from that gig in the attic somewhere..

[Andy F]

Can we throw Tool into the mix? Undertow was '94 IIRC, as was Paw's most excellent 'Dragline', both worth searching out.

[Pantontino]

I only ever liked one song by Placebo: Come home:



Top song, but watching the film that goes with it reminds me why I dislike this band.

His stage persona is so laboured it's funny.

Tool are obviously gods. I also really rate the offshoot (and probably listen to them more): A Perfect Circle:





I played Copper Blue to death at the time. Great album for sure.

[andy popp]

Sugar were OK but as nothing compared to the mighty Husker Du, who, like most of the bands mentioned in this thread, were nothing to do with grunge.. Saw Husker Du several times, the best being at the Bierkeller in Bristol just after the release of New Day Rising; they were ferocious.

[Dr T]

Can we throw Tool into the mix?

without a doubt - effing blinding live but no where near being grunge...
as for a perfect circle imho started brilliantly - saw them support the deftones at wembly a few years back - but then disappeared up their own backsides....

[Houdini]

Ah, The God Machine, possibly the best of the lot. Scenes from the Second Story is indeed a piece of fractured beauty.

Just gonna raise the dead thread to say LO!  Andy F, at last we speak the same language, breathe of the same air, and eat of the most holiest of sacred cows!  The God Machine were so damn good it's a fucking lie!  Unleash the wild rock waddage. 

[underground]

Sugar were shit when I saw them live, the worst 8 quid I ever spent on a gig.

The God Machine, fucking brilliant, Gil Norton knew how to produce a record.

Girls Against Boys were pretty damned impressive around the same time, saw them play at The Leadmill in the back bar and nearly fell off it  when the full power of the noise was unleashed...

[Pantontino]

I loved Girls against Boys - saw them live quite a few times. Also saw Soulside (the lead singer's old post-hardcore band) play at the Duchess of York in Leeds once. Great bands.

To Andy Popp: obviously Sugar never matched Husker Du's high points (how could he/they?), but they still put out at least one very fine record. In fact that Beaster thing is pretty good too.

Not grunge at all really, but definitely an influence on the main grunge bands, and certainly one of the most important American bands in the 80s. Check out: Let it Be by The Replacements

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Let-Be-Remastered-Replacements/dp/B00006FR75

Paul Westerburg (the singer) continues to make fine music. I can bore people about how good his solo albums are too, just give me the nod and I'll make some recommendations.

[andy popp]

Forget grunge