[Fiend]

A few years ago I was at Lawrencefield on a nice evening, and was watching someone lead the E4 to the right of Billy Whiz. He was clearly a good climber and led it smoothly and steadily. I did notice however, that he spent about 3/4 of the time working out and placing gear, and about 1/4 of the time doing actual moves.

This discrepancy stuck in my mind for ever more, and since then I have been in that same situation myself....not leading E4s smoothly FFS - spending more time faffing with gear than climbing I mean!

I came to the conclusion that the crux of trad is dealing with the gear situation. I think trad is deeply wonderful, having to place gear is part of that and can be a great part whether it's smoothly slotting in wires on the Cromlech or running it out above cams on the grit or fiddling in a line of RPs on the Culm Coast. However I also think many of us (especially myself lol) live under the yoke of gear, the tyranny of not just placing it, but placing enough, trusting it, being aware of the dangers if it goes wrong, of always looking for gear rather than moves....of often the gear coming first and the climbing coming second.

In some ways, it's a necessity. Fuck up or miss out the gear and you could die. Fuck up the moves or miss out the holds and you could fail on the route. Safety has to come first to allow the climbing to proceed sensible.

Nevertheless I feel the balance is often skewed. Not always - slotting in those Cromech wires, shoving in a couple of grit cams from that comfy handjam etc etc. Sometimes it just works. But sometimes it seems a real inhibition to the actual process of climbing.

So what can be done about this??

I have a couple of lines of thinking.

The first about oneself: One can learn, ideally, to place gear quicker, and to be more trusting of it (assuming one is good at it and based on solid factual experience of what gear will hold). The process is slow due to the combination of actually doing it, and due to not always trusting what gear is there. So that needs to be tackled.

The second is about the information that is available about the route, specifically guidebooks. For onsighting trad we obviously rely on guidebooks a lot to give us an idea what to expect and climb in accordance with those expectations. We have to have a certain amount of faith in the accuracy of the information. Sometimes that faith is warranted, but not always. There's enough discrepancies and mis-information that erodes that faith, and makes it harder to get on with the climbing, not knowing whether "climb the wall to good pro" actually means that or "bold moves out left" actually mean that. I definitely have a hope for more accurate guidebook information - not MORE information, not beta, just accurate information. Which can sometimes be less information even!

Thoughts??

[Somebody's Fool]

The tyranny of Fiend and Waff(le)?

[Fiend]

Behave, this isn't UKC where one expects a load of nitwits moaning about people posting in-depth climbing topics 

[Somebody's Fool]

Soz.  If it makes you feel any better, it wasn't a moan, it was entirely flippant.

[Fiend]

I guessed that

[dave]

So what can be done about this??

Go soloing?

[Andy F]

Bolt the lot and get rid of the faffing. Problem solved 

[Fiend]

Or go bouldering...

[RopeBoy]

I came to the conclusion that the crux of trad is dealing with the gear situation. I think trad is deeply wonderful, having to place gear is part of that and can be a great part whether it's smoothly slotting in wires on the Cromlech or running it out above cams on the grit or fiddling in a line of RPs on the Culm Coast. However I also think many of us (especially myself lol) live under the yoke of gear, the tyranny of not just placing it, but placing enough, trusting it, being aware of the dangers if it goes wrong, of always looking for gear rather than moves....of often the gear coming first and the climbing coming second.

Hi Fiend,

I know what you mean, no real easy answer to this. Sometimes bold routes mean less gear and less faff, like slabs, but I'm running out of slabs to do. It's hard cracks I dislike where you have to stop and fiddle in wires maybe from poor footholds, I use my feet a lot and have weak arms and so avoid cracks, ditto steep roofs. 

I sprained my ankle a while back and dropped my grade and did a lot of easy trad and found that my gear placement became faster and more accurate, ie chosing the right wire first time, which meant less faffing. I now tend to make a quick decision on routes, if I get a good bit of pro in I tend to run it out.

J

[webbo]

again another replay from ancient history. on lots of my big leads the issue often was being strong or fit enough to hang on to place the gear, not whether  i'd be strong enough to do the crux didn't seem to come into it.
i always felt i lacked stamina so this was a big issue for me.so alot of time was spent place gear when you were at the bottom of the crag,looking at what was possible,what would hold.this was at a time when there was new gear coming out.my trad era covered early troll/clogg/moacs through to friends/rocks/r/ps.i feel this helped in size recognition and speed of placements.
also in those days the beta was more about what gear rather than how do you do the crux.

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah good beta there - if you get in a bomber runner run it out for a bit. Only faff if they're all crap.

The main thing, though, is maybe to embrace the faff a bit more, after all its the craft that seperates trad from the rest. Several of the most memorable (and satisfying) pitches of my life have been mainly gear-placing exercises with the moves secondary, in fact a lot of the moves are done to get in a more comfortable position from which to place more. Its only by approaching them in this way that you can maintain the composure to continue. Its not that the moves are easy or irrelevant, its more that the terrain is so intimidating that the craft becomes the stopping block. Anyone can do hard moves straightforward gear, but in the midst of wierdness its a different ball-game.

[Falling Down]

Wise words from JB... I've thought about this before and reckon that our climbing wall/sport climbing culture has taken such a grip that we sometimes only tend to think of 'climbing' being moving upwards whilst pulling on/standing on the rock.  I've fallen into this trap a few times when out tradding after a spell of bouldering or sport climbing when I'm stood at the bottom or on a stance belaying thinking 'well... we're not getting much climbing done today' and then have to kick myself that the whole faffing thing is part of the game. 

Omar Little "All in the game yo, all in the game."

[Paz]

One of my thoughts about gear recently was why do we need it, do we place it, what's it for?  It basically allows you to attempt harder moves as the chance of failing is not then automatically a chance of dying.  If there's no or crap gear, you do easier moves (for you), get more, or go somewhere else.  My conclusion for me was that you want more gear that your happy falling on for a 6a crux than you do for 5a/b ground above or below.  The trick is working out which is which of course, but these days I'd trade off perfect pro on the easy bit for weight and gear on the crux, go down to single carabiners to make the gear last to the top.

I like placing gear, for me it's part of the head game, the challenge, what JB calls the craft,  using your nouse. 
When me and Dave first bouldered a 6b move or a B6, somewhere in my head I said I therefore I could climb E7.  But if you compare the grade of the boulder problems you can flash to your trad onsight grade, you'll probably see more correlation (with an offset for the weight of the gear).  Especially if you try and climb boulder problems static. 

For you it seems climbing's mostly about the moves and pleasantness, so like Andy F I've always been surprised you're not into sport climbing.  At least then you could complain about the clips instead. 

There're different head game situations that I've identified.  At one extreme you've got the stamina route.  Quintissential Pembroke.  Your thing at Sharpnose, soft touch or trade routes that planet fear throw their clients at.  Running it out above a bomber runner is all very well here (there ain't owt to hit), it certainly helps you save enough quickdrawers for the top and not run out of gear.  Sport fitness is highly relevant for this to me, which is why I mention bolts.  Then at the other end (ignoring highballs) you've got the boulder problem route, the one move wonder, often blind.  Rooves seem to feature highly in this.  A dilemma for me is how much gear to put in, and how committed to get on the move.  You shouldn't get blinkered in to trying the move a certain way, but often your first guess is good enough.  Basically, do you try it like you'd flash a boulder problem, death or glory, everything into that first attempt, or climb up and down, work out where the holds are and get a much gear as you need.  For me failing on the the first method results in grabbing or falling on gear, on on the second in backing off.  Do you flash a boulder problem or try to work the moves on it without falling off - or when do you decide to (how much info do you need) to go for the flash?  How dynamic can you be without committing?  However confident I am that I can get up moves this second way (eventually), I wonder: given success by either method, how much energy I've got left afterwards for further interrest above?  So which is the better approach for the route as a whole? 

But I don't think I'm ever going to join the talented planet fear course smooth style, climbing wall god/ trad lemming, brigade, and in between my two extrema we have all shades of faff in between.  However for me this is where the interest lies (not just because it's like main wall either, just cos its good old fashioned head game territory, if the moves are easy or the gear's perfect, then either way there's no sport (and I likes a fight)).  The trad head game.  It's all that separates us from the french. 

[RopeBoy]

Hi Fiend,

The other alternative is go out with your mate who's keen to lead a route. He goes up does a lot of faffing placing gear chalking up all the good holds and then falls off pumped and asks to be lowered to the ground. There he suggests would you like to have a go whilst he rests/de-pumps.

You then climb up to all the gear clip it and flash the route pausing only to blow chalk from your fingertips.

J

[cider nut]

I did notice however, that he spent about 3/4 of the time working out and placing gear, and about 1/4 of the time doing actual moves.

I think that I personally spend about 1/4 time doing moves, 1/4 time placing gear, and 1/2 time 'working out' (which is an aspect you mention initially, but then just concentrate on the gear aspect).
My 'working out' consists of  working out the next move, working out the moves after that, working out where I'm likely to be able to stop and place gear, wondering if I can remember how to do such moves even if I have already done similar on that route (memory loss due to fear), starting to doubt that more the more I wonder, wondering why i'm there, wondering why I climb, etc etc. 

It would be interesting, if a bit anal, to know the real breakdown (for me and others).

[Tommy]

Think of it like this;

Grade style of climbing in terms of amount of faff.

Zero faff - bouldering
Minor faff - OS sport climbing
Medium faff - redpointing/easy(er) trad
More faff - harder trad/ice
Extreme faff of the highest order - bigwall climbing/aid climbing

So if you were told that you could never do trad again and you had to pick a pursuit at either end of the scale, which would it be? Bouldering or bigwall climbing? If you'd pick bouldering over bigwalling, it may well be that you're deluding yourself that you're a true tradist?! For me, the slight annoyance of messing around with gear is far outweighed by the aspect of adventure, exploration and climbing big lines. 

Ps. Hope the shoulder's a bit better now.

[SA Chris]

Fiend, of all the 50 or so partners I have ever climbed with, and it must range from total novices to really good climbers, I haven't seen anyone place more redundant gear than you have. I don't mean to this in a nasty way, it just surprised me; placing perfectly bomber gear, and then backing it up with more perfectly bomber gear. I think you need to have more faith in what you place, as you do know what you are doing with the stuff.

Otherwise, you need to take a hollistic approach to climbing trad routes and view the placing of the gear as part of the overall ascent of the route, as mentioned above, and learn to take pleasure in well placed gear, especially when you have to be a bit inventive and devious in coming up with something good.

[Jim]

50 partners and you've climbed with them all 
You Stallion

[Paz]

placing perfectly bomber gear, and then backing it up with more perfectly bomber gear.

That sounds like a belay.

[Fiend]

Well, I probably did end up sitting on it then...

Worth noting that you did see me at a very bad time with my climbing, Chris. But a fair point nevertheless.

Good points from many people, and interesting reading. I will reply in depth later.

[AndiT]

I've always relied on what my old man told me which was to 'place gear when you can, not when you need it', which sems to work i.e. don't by-pass good gear because the climbing is easy, because you can guarantee that three irreversible moves later you'll be trying to set up some rp's in opposition from a rounded undercut with feet on smears. On some easier/well protected routes it can slow you down a lot but as a general rule it seems to work.

Other than that, embrace the faff it's all part of the fun as your mate freezes on the belay stance below.

[Johnny Brown]

Why don't you get Gresham to throw you off London wall in brogues and a tight t-shirt. I read it was the best way to gain faith in your gear. Don't be nervous now, a couple of over-caffeinated sugary drink companys and you'll be mad for it.

[Somebody's Fool]

Why don't you get Gresham to throw you off London wall in brogues and a tight t-shirt.

I severely hope he was wearing more than that.  I certainly wouldn't let go of the top of the crag in that state of undress.

Well not unless I was absolutely sure my penis was at least as girthy as Ed Drummond's digits.

[Bubba]

[Tommy]

Oooh, that would make for painful crimping!!   

[Shy Yorkshireman]

Oooh, that would make for painful crimping!!   

Just think about the thumb spraggs though!
I'm not sure about this thread surly it belongs on ukclimbing, Dear ukclimbing I think that trad climbing is boring why don't we bolt everything and and put loweroff's in (like they've done at millstone ) It would be far better, discuss. Then the sound of beards twitching in rage, and then a flurry of activity on the key board. Shocked and disgusted i was.....blarr blarr blarr.
At the end of the day you get much more out of shiting yourself for an hour or two on some death pitch somewhere faffing in piece after piece of shite, till you manage to convince yourself that they will hold. When really you know damm well they won't. Finally you do the move that wouldn't even get a v grade but a few moments before was the hardest thing you ever looked at. You get the slot and realize it not a jug it's a slopper and the backs closed, no cam, your arse goes again. but you get on with it! why because your a man(or girl) and because you don't have the luxury of dropping two few on to the pad. You keep going cos you've got to, And then just before the rock ends and you have to climb 60feet of wet vertical grass, you look back down the line of your two ropes and 25 quickdraws. And you think fuck me that was good!

And that moment lives with you for months.


Lowering off or walking down the otherside of the boulder, is just not quite the same. (it's more fun though.)

[Von~Ryan]

Lets remember that a lot of trad routes were put up when there wasn't a choice of much or any gear, but they were still done.
What I mean is it's not something you conciously change, or train to do. The more you climb trad the more comfortable and aware you are of YOURSELF, the only changing factor. Guidebooks should have the information the first accentist chose important, unless anything changes on the route. afterall they had no info and still done pretty alright on the route the first time round. Didn't they? Just my views

[ksjs]

good post. how much have you actually climbed routes / venues where you can fall at leisure? in other words something with good gear, where you arent ever depending on an individual piece and there are no ledges / slabby bits to smash into? if youre getting annoyed with yourself because youre backing up less than bomber gear / legitimately concerned about hitting something on the way down / worried about the one good bit of gear you have failing then i dont think these are situations to be annoyed about and you should continue to be prudent. if however you are somewhere like Sharpnose and youve got good gear and a clean fall and youre still nervous / backing up good gear then there is a "problem". the answer is probably to climb venues / routes like this and know / believe that the gear is good and you can fall then take the falls or cruise to glory. basically i think you cant be too hard on yourself until youve given yourself a fair chance i.e. you shouldnt expect to be relaxed above poor gear or when youre looking at leg breaking / worse falls.

despite my words i still havent got this cracked and do suffer from occasional unnecessary faff. sport climbing and falling really helped - after a sustained period of sport falls i was able to take this mindset to trad. i dont think though i will ever be able to convince myself to do dangerous trad as i know mistakes happen but i do very much plan to push myself to harder / run out trad as long as there are clean falls and good gear.

[Paz]

Don't do dangerous trad unless you feel like it.  But what I'd call scary (ie. call dangerous to myself, but not to my mum, because afterwards I was in control at every point), maybe you'd call dangerous.  It's not quite as dangerous if you know there's not that much risk of falling off.

Cock fingers and sharpnose on the same thread can only remind me of CockNose from Bo Selecta (I've googled it so you don't have to (came up with surprisingly few  dodogy google images incidentally)):

 

[Fiend]

I'm not sure about this thread surly it belongs on ukclimbing, Dear ukclimbing I think that trad climbing is boring why don't we bolt everything and and put loweroff's in (like they've done at millstone ) It would be far better, discuss. Then the sound of beards twitching in rage, and then a flurry of activity on the key board. Shocked and disgusted i was.....blarr blarr blarr.

Actually I am reasonably familiar with UKC and there's a reason I posted the topic on here instead. Over there I'd have got a fair amount of dross and probably the only sensible answers would have been from "Ropeboy", "Adam L", "andi turner" and "Paz"...

Anyway replies coming up, sorry for doing them seperately I can't be arsed copy and pasting the quotes and missing out people's names and stuff.

[Fiend]

I sprained my ankle a while back and dropped my grade and did a lot of easy trad and found that my gear placement became faster and more accurate, ie chosing the right wire first time, which meant less faffing. I now tend to make a quick decision on routes, if I get a good bit of pro in I tend to run it out.

Good call. When I am forced (unwillingly) to do easy-for-me trad routes, I do try to focus on swift and smooth ascents (climbing WELL being more important than climbing HARD). I shall try to more conciously focus on the smooth gear as well as the smooth climbing side.

[Fiend]

The main thing, though, is maybe to embrace the faff a bit more, after all its the craft that seperates trad from the rest. Several of the most memorable (and satisfying) pitches of my life have been mainly gear-placing exercises with the moves secondary, in fact a lot of the moves are done to get in a more comfortable position from which to place more. Its only by approaching them in this way that you can maintain the composure to continue. Its not that the moves are easy or irrelevant, its more that the terrain is so intimidating that the craft becomes the stopping block. Anyone can do hard moves straightforward gear, but in the midst of wierdness its a different ball-game.

Wise words from JB... I've thought about this before and reckon that our climbing wall/sport climbing culture has taken such a grip that we sometimes only tend to think of 'climbing' being moving upwards whilst pulling on/standing on the rock.  I've fallen into this trap a few times when out tradding after a spell of bouldering or sport climbing when I'm stood at the bottom or on a stance belaying thinking 'well... we're not getting much climbing done today' and then have to kick myself that the whole faffing thing is part of the game. 

Very interesting views, cheers for that!! Not really a perspective I'd fully considered even though I enjoy placing gear, strange huh. Maybe I'd thought of it as a necessary evil that can be fun, rather than a simple good aspect of climbing?? Still seems strange that that viewpoint seems refreshing to me as I've always said I like the jigsaw puzzle aspect to gear placing. Hmmmm....

I will try to take that on board. Reducing the faff is one thing. Reducing my aversion to the (remaining and necessary) faff is another.

Incidentally I did two climbs recently both of which were heavily orientated around that faff. Funnily enough both of them were 3 star E3s at Pavey Ark and both of them revolved as much about getting in enough gear to avoid hitting ledges below. The first I did was Cascade Direct which was pretty gruelling faffing around, mostly due to some very streno bridging but also due to how hard the gear was to see. The second was Cruel Sister which had much more relaxed faffing due to the open wall nature, however it was still scary until I excavated a hidden wire slot. The latter definitely felt like the faffing was more part of the game but maybe that was just due to more comfortable situation??

[Fiend]

Think of it like this;

Grade style of climbing in terms of amount of faff.

Zero faff - bouldering
Minor faff - OS sport climbing
Medium faff - redpointing/easy(er) trad
More faff - harder trad/ice
Extreme faff of the highest order - bigwall climbing/aid climbing

So if you were told that you could never do trad again and you had to pick a pursuit at either end of the scale, which would it be? Bouldering or bigwall climbing? If you'd pick bouldering over bigwalling, it may well be that you're deluding yourself that you're a true tradist?! For me, the slight annoyance of messing around with gear is far outweighed by the aspect of adventure, exploration and climbing big lines. 

Interesting scale there. I agree that I tend towards the less faff end of the spectrum and enjoy sport and bouldering as well as trad. HOWEVER I am definitely a true traddist at heart. I just feel trad is right for me and it really inspires me. I am also getting urges to more faffy trad (i.e. loose sea-cliffs) as well. And messing around with gear isn't always an annoyance....just sometimes!

[Fiend]

Fiend, of all the 50 or so partners I have ever climbed with, and it must range from total novices to really good climbers, I haven't seen anyone place more redundant gear than you have. I don't mean to this in a nasty way, it just surprised me; placing perfectly bomber gear, and then backing it up with more perfectly bomber gear. I think you need to have more faith in what you place, as you do know what you are doing with the stuff.

As before I was at a very bad time mentally. But I still do place too much protection probably....I dunno I just have a real phobia of smashing my body into seperate pieces on the ground if something goes wrong 

I do have a maxim to make sure there are always two bomber bits of gear between me and the ground or me and a bad fall. I'm not changing that, I'd rather be posting moaning topics about faff  than moaning topics about broken limbs.

But that aside I am constantly aware of my tendency to over-protect things, and trying to work on it.

[Fiend]

I've always relied on what my old man told me which was to 'place gear when you can, not when you need it', which sems to work i.e. don't by-pass good gear because the climbing is easy, because you can guarantee that three irreversible moves later you'll be trying to set up some rp's in opposition from a rounded undercut with feet on smears. On some easier/well protected routes it can slow you down a lot but as a general rule it seems to work.

I did that on an easier route in the Lakes recently, quite a nice little E1 up a steep crack / chimney. I ended up placing 5 bits of gear in the top 6m, simply because they were there. Wasn't too much faffing though

[Fiend]

good post. how much have you actually climbed routes / venues where you can fall at leisure? in other words something with good gear, where you arent ever depending on an individual piece and there are no ledges / slabby bits to smash into? if youre getting annoyed with yourself because youre backing up less than bomber gear / legitimately concerned about hitting something on the way down / worried about the one good bit of gear you have failing then i dont think these are situations to be annoyed about and you should continue to be prudent. if however you are somewhere like Sharpnose and youve got good gear and a clean fall and youre still nervous / backing up good gear then there is a "problem". the answer is probably to climb venues / routes like this and know / believe that the gear is good and you can fall then take the falls or cruise to glory. basically i think you cant be too hard on yourself until youve given yourself a fair chance i.e. you shouldnt expect to be relaxed above poor gear or when youre looking at leg breaking / worse falls.

Yeah good to draw that distinction. I'm fairly good at judging when a situation is going to be properly dangerous or not. I'm also fairly good at judging when it's going to be properly safe i.e. easy to place bomber gear. I'm less good in the middle area when it might be a bit bold or the fall might be a bit odd or the gear might be hard to place or might not be perfect and then the faff tends to creep in, especially in the latter two scenarios.

[Fiend]

Stuff.

Not much to reply too specifically but interesting reading as always.

I'm not really after a Planetfear gay pr0n photography over-caffeinated sugary drink company sponsored I claimed 3 grades harder blowing chalk off my fingers style. I climb on cloudy days too and like dirty quarries and don't have anything that approaches style, I'm tempted to melt Onyx onto my knees.

Just working out that this (gear) is the crux of the issue, and the crux isn't the crux of the issue as it were.

[SA Chris]

One thing that you might try; evaluate each placement with marks  x/5, and then try and keep at least a 5 (in total) between you and a fall that wouldn't want to take; ie a "long" one or "dangerous" one (based on your perception of either).