[Andy W]

I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.

I could be in a kind of loop where the problems I aspire to do, I mimic on my board. But I'm struggling to think of problems outside that have a FFH feel. I'm sure FFH does have a place in training, but how much I'm not sure. The point I made earlier about problems of this kind being more communicable/marketable must be a little true. LED light systems wouldn't work without FFH, unless you have two different coloured lights. Actually I have no idea about this, anyone enlighten me?

[Andy W]

I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.

When you set the feet, are you (or Chris or Andy or anyone) typically setting them to give an "out-door" climbing style or to induce the exceptionally powerful style that I presumed was what gave board training its magic sauce?

 

I often use small foot holds, as the problems get wired I make them worse, more awkward, etc, this is a training effect. Also very controllable, which is important for an ageing body. Big moves which FFH often are, I think might not be so controllable.

[Andy W]

I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.

By the time I get my feet high enough to stand on the starting hand holds I’m at the top of my board. Unless I put heel next to my hands as I start.

This is true 

[teestub]

I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.

I could be in a kind of loop where the problems I aspire to do, I mimic on my board. But I'm struggling to think of problems outside that have a FFH feel. I'm sure FFH does have a place in training, but how much I'm not sure. The point I made earlier about problems of this kind being more communicable/marketable must be a little true. LED light systems wouldn't work without FFH, unless you have two different coloured lights. Actually I have no idea about this, anyone enlighten me?

The kilter has different LED colours to allow you to add additional footholds when setting a problem and there are a lot of smaller holds for that purpose on the board. A lot of the better quality Moonboard problems revolve around feet that aren’t the same as the handholds forcing moves similar to laybacking an arête with your feet out to the side, or doing a big lock off poor hands rocking onto a good foot.

There’s also quite a range of setting on both boards from small moves on small holds to the getting to the top in two moves which they are probably more known for.

[SA Chris]

When you set the feet, are you (or Chris or Andy or anyone) typically setting them to give an "out-door" climbing style or to induce the exceptionally powerful style that I presumed was what gave board training its magic sauce?

I usually set with the same type / colour of holds, otherwise I forget where I am supposed to go! I do the prob first using any feet, then switch to HFF or I have a grid of crappy foot bibs screwed on in the gaps between the holds. Some probs are harder as HFF, some are harder on the jibs. Don't know about any sauce, but a lot of the hard climbing round here is on small edges an crap feet, so I try and emulated that. Loke Webbo, my board is too small and not steep enough for doing hard heelhooks etc. I save that for wall sessions.

[Fiend]

Firstly any tall slim people with strong fingers who have been training on a board all their climbing life, the door is over there and please shut it firmly as it's bloody cold tonight, ta 

Secondly:

Fiend, I think the thread is really interesting but ironically, possibly directly less relevant to you than to many other posters?

I think it's quite relevant to me as it's my thread, about me, with my questions  . But then again maybe the answers are less relevant - which would be business as usual - but the general theme seems to be one which can explain the situation?? Although, as much as I understand the "triple whammy" logic, I still have a gut instinct something else might be up.

It sounds like the adaptations forced on you by injury, (more volume, lower intensity) would have served to keep your strength levels up 10 years ago but don’t work now. In other words, the biggest problem is healing injury. Deal with that and you might be free to climb in a way that keeps your power at a level you’d be perfectly happy with?

Yes but....part of the reason I posted this is about strength losses that aren't just climbing, and aren't as hampered by injury - this is why the weights issue highlighted it so much to me. I'd expect strength losses in lat pulldowns, bicep curls and maybe rows due to my persistent elbow problems. But bench and overhead press - yes they could be impacted by my impinged right shoulder, BUT my left shoulder feels just as weak, sometimes more so, without any injury. Deadlifts - yes I've had a gracillis tweak, but whilst this was very apparent in hamstring curls, it was negligible in deadlifts. Generally the weights are an area where I've not injured myself doing it, can measure a variety of lifts to avoid current injuries, am not hampered by my own weight, and I've been consistently able to get back into until this last year - hence the decline is more striking.

The only difference age has imposed on you is that you’d have got away with inefficient training as a youth, now you have to do the ‘proper’ way. And that means fixing injuries.

Well, yes, talking about climbing specifically, that does seem to be the thing (and something I would consider as The Thing in general IF it was affecting my weights benchmarking too). I am trying a lot harder to get the balance right of enjoying my climbing (and other activities) which is enjoyable, and continually looking after my current injuries, which is not enjoyable (and sometimes quite detrimental to my mental, or even, physical health, and YES I know that being perma-injured is also very detrimental, my brain might be wonky but it's not entirely stupid). Generally the proper way is an anathema to my piss-poor motivation but yes I'm trying to be more receptive to the bits I can be receptive too (e.g. rest a bit more sensibly and don't be tempted to go to freezing cold board walls that I'm unfamiliar with and would struggle to ease into).


Thirdly, this thread, the responses, and the concepts, are still swirling around in my head. Some of those swirls are stuff like "I really am fucked strength wise, this is it". Some of the swirls are exactly the same as that but suffixed with "...but maybe I can try to slow the decline a bit by being a bit more tactical about what I do" (not that I am uninjured enough to contemplate anything remotely approaching "training" in the foreseeable future). Some of them are being more aware of junk metres, both in climbing volume and also in metres of grot excavated / de-ferned - I am starting to think more about getting the balance right between "this activity could calm the voices a bit" and "this activity could also keep fatiguing me and pushing my further from climbing capability". I'm not quite at the stage for "this other activity is boring as fuck, really repetitive, I'd rather motivate myself to lick the base of Wilton clean with my tongue.....but if I do it all the fucking time then it might proof me against injury x,y,z"...which is my other personal weakness ofc.

[mrjonathanr]

You’ve obviously got a range of injuries which inhibit what you can do and how you can do it, and that must be appallingly frustrating. Navigating through to a broadly uninjured state must be very difficult.

For me it was elbow woes, compounded by some bad luck and it took lay off, tiny incremental approach to loading, plenty  of shoulder strengthening and seeing the light about consistency and intensity- but it resolved, eventually.

What I was getting at (hopefully without coming across as snotty) was that a lot of the thread responses were about how to handle ageing. For sure it increasingly affects us all, but I wouldn’t be too fatalistic about this at your age. I think you are old enough to have to work round this now, but too young for that to be THE deciding factor.

I see some regret for not developing more strength when it was easier to do so, but lId look at how much untapped potential that gives you, once you have resolved some current difficulties.

Maybe get some health tests from the GP to check in on overall level of health?

[Fiend]

Thanks once again MrJR 

You’ve obviously got a range of injuries which inhibit what you can do and how you can do it, and that must be appallingly frustrating. Navigating through to a broadly uninjured state must be very difficult.

For the purposes of this thread, not really, as the issue I'm concerned about is strength losses that are not injury related (nor weight related). Although I do appreciate your sympathy as injuries have definited my lack of climbing physical capability in the last 3-4 years.

For me it was elbow woes, compounded by some bad luck and it took lay off, tiny incremental approach to loading, plenty  of shoulder strengthening and seeing the light about consistency and intensity- but it resolved, eventually.

Well, yes, going back to climbing strengths instead, this is definitely an important area, and other posters have highlighted publicly and in PMs that injury management is crucial as one gets older. I take your point that I too need to focus on shoulder strengthening (as well as letting my TE recover). I did Arnold Presses at the gym the other day...and need to do a hell of a lot more of that sort of stuff.

What I was getting at (hopefully without coming across as snotty) was that a lot of the thread responses were about how to handle ageing. For sure it increasingly affects us all, but I wouldn’t be too fatalistic about this at your age. I think you are old enough to have to work round this now, but too young for that to be THE deciding factor.

(Not snotty at all ). This is true, those were the responses, but my initial question wasn't specifically about age, it was a general "WTF is going on??" (in strength measurements that aren't hampered by injury / weight). People have replied about more age-related factors that I had considered, and that does make sense to me, but I wasn't necessarily expecting age to be THE deciding factor (although personally I think the DVTs and weight make my effective age a bit older...). Either way, the general consensus of being more sensible and careful seems a good one.

I see some regret for not developing more strength when it was easier to do so, but lId look at how much untapped potential that gives you, once you have resolved some current difficulties.

You are very optimistic!! I am not aiming to develop more strength, I am not aiming to maintain strength nor stop the decline, I am only aiming to SLOW the decline. Which is still something to strive for. And the same principles of sense and care apply to that.
Incidentally I think with the weights, I didn't try hard to gain more strength when it was easier to do so (unlike climbing where I've been trying hard for 20 years or so), but when I did start trying hard 6-8 years ago, I did see some GAINZ (now all lost).

Maybe get some health tests from the GP to check in on overall level of health?

Yes.

[Fiend]

Jamie G: Good point and I was going to mention that as it was something I considered, and I'm aware there can be a correlation. I personally don't feel my correlation is strong enough: Firstly I got to my strongest with lifting around 2018 when I had some increased depression (from post-norovirus nausea bouts). Secondly my mental health is marginally better and more stable than it was last autumn / winter, even if the strength is lower. Thirdly, it seems to be a very physiological thing - I don't feel I like motivation or commitment or effort at the gym (and definitely not at the wall). I feel good to try hard, and then the muscles just don't do as much as they could/should/have. Not ruling it out but I'm not sure TBH.

Okay so just watched DMaccy's latest, eloquent but fairly unrevelatory video about rest days. One thing that did come out was stressors affecting recovery, including mental health, and this got me thinking about the long term picture.

As per my reply to Jamie G above, I haven't found any "nearby" correlation between mental health issues and pure physical performance (in fact the latter has often been a reliable retreat from the former!), but maybe in the longer term, more prolonged mental health issues could affect my recovery and strength maintenance over time. E.g. the accumulation of regular depressive "rest" days where although I've felt strong in surrounding events, the physiological effects of the depression have been nibbling away at recovery for the long term.

Not that I have any enlightened protocol from that possibility. I am in general taking more care with rest days though.

[JamieG]

One definite positive is you are engaging with the struggle and being open minded about how to improve both mental and physical health. Hope you are seeing some improvements. Definitely not easy!

[SA Chris]

the idea is you have a feeding window of 8hrs, then a 'fast' for 16hrs, followed by workout, followed by a day of 800 calories, then back to normal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/intermittent-fasting-cardiovascular-heart-disease-death-b2515400.html

FFS, can't win

[jwi]

I could not find the original study. From the newspaper article it sounds like they found that people who decided that they need a radical weight loss diet are overweight?

Surely that must just be a bad writeup?

[SA Chris]

I know it's probably tabloid hype, hence the smiley. More clickbait like the horrendous snowstorms we've been forecasted (promised) a dozen times this winter.

[Fultonius]

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-conference-abstract-about-time-restricted-eating-and-cardiovascular-death/

Nothing to see here. Move along slowly.

SMC always a good first port of call for clickbait shite in the press.

[SA Chris]

https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/f2b36f7a-d734-483d-bce1-b0bdcf6a9b4f/episodes/e1836102-c253-46e5-bbe7-5ea767e8fbdc/always-another-adventure-76-dr-peter-clarkson-cardiologist-climber-how-hard-should-older-athletes-train

Probably more for endurance sports, but a bit of everything. There is the option of video in link.