[slackline]

In our world there is no black and there is no white, there are only shades of grey

[Johnny Brown]

You don't generally get that on E5 grit solos, nevermind E6 or E7 (pads or no pads)."

In other words it didn't feel like an E5 solo in the vein of White Wand or Ulysses or Bust to me (above pads)

We differ there then. I find Ulysses or Bust rather less committing - both easier to reverse, and less of a jump to get off.

Johnny, purely out of interest, how did Thumbelina differ as an experience from Angel's Share, which I think you did give a V grade to?

Well I certainly wouldn't be happy to fall off the last move of Thumbelina once let alone repeatedly.

Just for the record, I'm not trying to defend this as an E7. I totally agree 7A+ makes plenty of sense. What doesn't make sense is folk calling it E3 or 4. E6 I think is realistic without pads. I think you need both grades to make full sense of it, as Jim said 95% of 7a+ boulderers are going to turn straight round.

[Gus]

Hi everyone.
Just to add my two penneth worth, I'm a little bit sad to see that this has deteriorated into a grade debate, and hope that the route, which is probably one of the best in the Churnet, doesn't get overshadowed by this.

I spotted Andi on the first ascent, it was a really special day, and I know how proud Andi was of the route (and still should be whatever people think on the grade)

It's worth noting that Andi's ascent was probably the only one to use the original sequence to get the pocket (a really committing foot lock, almost by your head, followed by a powerful stretch/ lock to the pocket.) On the day we were both very aware that this was pretty serious, with this move nearly half way up the route, falling off it, in that position would have been way more serious than even jumping off from the very top, and would likely deposit you on the deck head/ back first.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, on that day it felt like Andi was climbing an e7, and from my side, it felt to me that I was spotting someone on a route of this grade, both on the crux move and near the top.

It does sound like a new sequence has reduced the seriousness of the route somewhat, but I think Andi's initial assessment on that day was still pretty accurate!

All being said it's a top class route, and if all this attention means people are heading to Ina's rock to try it, or The Churnet in general, then that's  agood thing, and again reflects the quality of the route, and the crag.

Cheers
Gus

[Jim]

I think you need both grades to make full sense of it, as Jim said 95% of 7a+ boulderers are going to turn straight round.

I recon 100% of 7a+ boulderers are going to walk away from this one.
Uncle's done fb8b, you've done fb8a and I have also seen you dancing about on the top of E6's in your trainers. Andi's no slouch either.
I recon the way Andi did the crux move would be fucking scary, trying to put my foot up alone was scary enough, let alone locking it in and going horizontal

[Johnny Brown]

Tried to do it again today, rather half heartedly, and shat it. Not E3 or E4.

On the other hand, Ben found a much better sequence for the downclimb, which even Keith repeated without trouble, so I think we can say the abseil off is no longer the easiest option.

Ben and Keith both did Cornelius ground-up. Bravo.

[lagerstarfish]

I have nothing to say about the route, but this thread is ace.

Some really good, well thought out opinions being expressed.

[Bonjoy]

Ben and Keith both did Cornelius ground-up. Bravo.

Bravo indeed!

[nik at work]

Dare I ask, is it E8?

Just joking, good effort. Lots of people on here armchair debating to abstraction whilst others are out actually climbing. Show us the way pathfinders...

[unclesomebody]

I suppose I should offer my opinion/thoughts on this route now that I've done it. I'm firmly planted in the school of thought that puts this as a highball. I think this is predominantly I'm a boulderer, nothing else, so I approach things without ropes/gear as boulder problems. I wrote a bit on my blog about it, but basically, what I bring to this discussion is primarily only my own opinion and that is one of a boulderer. I'm not a pussy either and I'm very comfortable soloing actual routes that are well within my limit, in fact I very much enjoy it. Some boulderers don't like any sort of height, regardless of how much within their comfort zone is. That's totally fine and I don't think it's any better/worse. But I know my level rather well, and I know what I can do easily, with some difficulty, and with extreme perseverance. I said to Adam today that if Thumbelina had been 8A and the crux was near the top it is more than likely I wouldn't have done it. That's a bit too hard for me to do high up, but I'd still regard it as a highball, just a hard one (for me). After more thought on the subject I really do think it's a case of tomaydo/tomato. Ultimately people use grades to accurately gauge the difficulty of a piece of rock. For me, as a boulderer, it makes far more sense (ie. gives ME more info) to give a highball font grade to these things. To Grimer, whose background is very different to mine, an E grade might prove more useful. So I guess one isn't better than the other in any meta sense because they are both arbitrary and abstract concepts anyway.

In that vein, I think Cornelius is a highball 7C. I also think that the crux is the move to the break and I personally found that move much harder than the others (regardless of the danger factor). I also think that it is a completely different level to Thumbelina. I stick by my original thoughts that Thumbelina is 7A+ and Cornelius is 7C. I'm sure, as users of UKB, you know the difference between those two grades! The crux is also higher up. You can see it in the pics actually, presented here so you don't have to read the other verbal diarrhea on my blog. As you do the crux of Thumbelina, your going to a handhold which is actually just below the height of my right foot in this picture. [pictures copyright of Adam Long]



By the way, it looks much higher than it really is because Adam is a great photographer and Ben is a small human.

I think Ben could give another side of the nature of these routes, as he is an extremely experienced and accomplished trad climber. I think he would be in a MUCH better position to tell you about the various E grades of these things. Look out for his upcoming pro blog (or was that a joke?).

Oh, about the stump. It's still there. I don't personally care what happens to it, but it is alive as Adam pointed out today.

Finally, both Thumbelina and Cornelius are mighty fine routes with great climbing. If you can bear to tear yourselves away from ukb/rubicon/stanage (delete as appropriate) then I can highly recommend a visit to the Churnet. Props to Rob who did the FA of Cornelius, it's a fine effort doing it on his own. Bonne grimpe mes amis.

[Adam Lincoln]

So you trusted Ben bouncing you with the pad more than you did me. I feel hurt..... 
Good effort Keith, fine effort. Was it all over when you grab the jug on the arete?

[Paul B]

looking on uncles blog it looks a lot smaller in some of the other pics and therefore some of the grades appear to make a little more sense in my head.

[Jim]

don't be fooled paul, it really is that big.

[AndiT]

Well done, that's a great effort from both of you. Well done to Ben for on-sighting Thumbelina too, great effort, I can't believe how many sequences are being produced for the crux, amazing 

[Fiend]

Finally, both Thumbelina and Cornelius are mighty fine routes with great climbing.

Well there we go 

Anyway...

After more thought on the subject I really do think it's a case of tomaydo/tomato. Ultimately people use grades to accurately gauge the difficulty of a piece of rock. For me, as a boulderer, it makes far more sense (ie. gives ME more info) to give a highball font grade to these things. To Grimer, whose background is very different to mine, an E grade might prove more useful. So I guess one isn't better than the other in any meta sense because they are both arbitrary and abstract concepts anyway.

Totally agree with that. It's mostly just a difference of approach / background / what information format one is used to. Highball / micro-route / short solo - different terms for the same thing, there's no qualitive difference just a personal descriptive difference. Covering more bases, within reason, is a good thing. Like in the BMC guides where they give boulder problems V grades AND tech grades - some boulderers may sniff at that (but equally I know routers who contemn bouldering grades), but it gives information to everyone, routers will find the tech grade useful to compare to what they know.

Having said all that, I still look at the photo above with you in full on bouldering mode, and think "fuck me that looks like a route" 


And more importantly...

If you can bear to tear yourselves away from ukb/rubicon/stanage (delete as appropriate) then I can highly recommend a visit to the Churnet.

Word to that. It is great that more offcomers are going down there - it was funny meeting you guys en-route. There's a lot to explore in the Churnizzle.

So...

I propose sending Fiend up as our standard E4/5 climber.

Well, your standard E2/3 climber finally hauled his scraped carcass around the lip of Atlas, and I can confirm that is....

Highball F6a+, of course.

Nah fuck that, it's all well high up there - I placed 3 bits of gear before I reached the mid-height ledge - looking along to ledge to the top of Thumbelina gave me the willies just thinking about it!! How do people get down from there?? I couldn't see any favourable options.

They are both amazing looking routeballs. As is Innaccessible as a full route - has that been done? And who's up for the Thumbelinaccessible link?

Also, new line around the left of Cornelius? Start around the little plant in the low break, big moves to the lip and rightwards into the obvious faint scoop/runnel?

Finally (mercifully), the stump. Fuck the stump I say. JB might have seen signs of life but it looked very minor and stump-like to me. You're surrounded by a woodland of beautiful big trees, no-one, not even Mother Nature, is going to miss this small decaying stump. IMO anyway.

[AndiT]

Left of Cornelius is 'Little Maya' E5 6a, up the scoop you've described.

Thumbelinaccessible would be great, no arguments with the grade then... well maybe.

[Teaboy]

no arguments with the grade then... well maybe.

you're joking? does Blind vision mesn nothing to you?  Sorry

[Jim]

has anyone done the direct start to thumbelina yet?

[Johnny Brown]

Don't think so. I had a cursory attempt that ended very close, but then got distracted. I did climb a probably new (tight) line right of Ina City Riot though.

[cofe]

be sure to call it Ina City Sumo.

[Nigel]

If you don't do it, Sky will.

[AndiT]

Don't think so. I had a cursory attempt that ended very close, but then got distracted. I did climb a probably new (tight) line right of Ina City Riot though.

Gus and I did one on the wall to the right of ICR called Inaquality a few years ago. It was a boulder problem of about F7a? I don't know if it's the same one you're thinking of.

[Idol eyes]

its all over the place... thinkin along the lines of it being a bolder problem... I have seem the likes of moon shun a uk problem because of exposure, then go to Font and do the second ascent (Petit Fou, M Menestrel) flash... at around E7 font 7cish...
The xs grade is no good,
The E grade don't work,
UK grades don't work,
We got to acknowledge that we are opening problems that feel gnarly when you work them, but on the ascent, they feel resonable. My view of soloing used to be, how can you climb something like King of Rumpy in the pass at E6, when you got Lord of the Flies across the road? I really like the feeling of not being able to fall off, embracing the somatic consequence of failure, and not the mortal...
Everything i have done, I feel has been Bouldering, and I reflect that in the grades, only to have it over ridden by other peoples opinions of something they have sometimes never even seen, let alone climbed.
I hope we can just enjoy the trip, and not trip on it to much...
"Big waves are mesured not in height, but increments of fear". applicable?

PS, Is that really me, or Chris Wentworth? which route is it?

[lagerstarfish]

its all over the place... thinkin along the lines of it being a bolder problem... I have seem the likes of moon shun a uk problem because of exposure, then go to Font and do the second ascent (Petit Fou, M Menestrel) flash... at around E7 font 7cish...
The xs grade is no good,
The E grade don't work,
UK grades don't work,

 

[Jim]

Tried to do it again today, rather half heartedly, and shat it.

Alarm bells ringing!!!!!!!!!

[Doylo]

My view of soloing used to be, how can you climb something like King of Rumpy in the pass at E6, when you got Lord of the Flies across the road?

I was definetely more scared on Rumpy than Lord but i know what your saying.