[Jim]

I really don't understand why you are so attached to this rotting stump Andi?
Its never going to grow into a tree again and even if it did it would obstruct the route at some point in its life.
If it was a boulder it would of been rolled out of the way, its just a dying tree stump whats wrong with leveling it off.
Removing would actually improve the asthetics of the place and also encourage more people to visit to try this problem ground up instead of headpointing it. It will not make the route easier.
All positive reasons for doing it IMHO.

Also, I don't know why I'm coming across so bothered about it. Its not as if I'm rushing back

[Johnny Brown]

Because when Andi last visited it was a tree.






And of course he wouldn't have rolled a boulder over either, unless it was less than 15cm dia. But lets not go down THAT road again.

[Bonjoy]

Great highball spoilled by the remains of a dead tree? You know what I'd do

I’d just like to say, I made that flippant remark based on the (incorrect?) info that the stump was dead, in which case its removal would be a no-brainer. With it being alive it’s obviously not so black and white.

[JohnM]

Was there ever a video about of Thumbelina?  Quite keen to take a look at this at the weekend and any beta would be good.  If the moves don't stop me I think the height will after a summer of sport!

[AndiT]

This might help, but then again, maybe not:

[a dense loner]

someone remove that tree. see andy's signature

[Mirf]

 

This is the stump just before I did cornelius. The red line shows where I cropped it,it was a very dead and rotten bit of wood that was just falling apart. The other shoots and branches lower down that were making a come back as can be seen in one of the photos of Andi must have been cut off by someone else. It did honestly seem like I was just cutting away a few inches of dead wood.

I'm sorry if this has upset anyone, maybe it wasn't the right thing to do.

But I suppose Iv'e done it now and I have to live with my decision.

Good to see Ina's rock is getting some attention.


Mirf

[Bonjoy]

Mirf, that is clearly a rotten log. I can't see even the most foam flecked preservationist being critical of it's removal.

[grimer]

if i looked like that I'd want chopping off at the red line

[Fiend]

Gotta be careful with your stump, eh...

[Johnny Brown]

Thanks for the info Mirf. I agree with BJ, there's nothing you've done there that could give anyone grounds for criticism. But how did we get from this pic:

to yours:

in only 12 months? Maybe there were (even) more folk coveting this line than we thought?

[unclesomebody]

The mystery woodcutter... maybe he'll strike again! 

[AndiT]

Thanks for the info Mirf. I agree with BJ, there's nothing you've done there that could give anyone grounds for criticism. But how did we get from this pic:

to yours:

in only 12 months? Maybe there were (even) more folk coveting this line than we thought?

Fair enough. I can agree that everyone elses opinions are equally as valid as my own, maybe I'm stuck in a rut with this sort of stuff. You never know, it maycome back as bushy and bright as ever in spring with its dead wood removed, or (perhaps more likely) it has received the euthanasia it so rightly deserved.

I think your first picture could go in the 'shit, isn't that..' thread; on the left: Schlong swinging lady lover Mark Sharratt, on the right: Beyond the black stump rotting back snapper. I think the tree is doing a better spotting job anyhow.

[Johnny Brown]

Andi, was it closer to A or B when you were last there?

[Adam Lincoln]

This saw another few ground up ascents the other day. Becoming quite the trade route!

[AndiT]

Just had a message of Gus saying that this weekends ascentionists think that the route is E3. Can't believe I was this far out, especially with JB's grade agreement. A bit gutting I think, makes me seem like an idiot who hasn't got a clue. Poo.

[GCW]

Andi, first ascents are weird.  You get fixed on a duff/nails sequence, obsessed into doing it one particular way.  Then someone else wanders up it and knocks 5 grades off.  So what?  Looks like a cool route from what I've seen, thus nothing to be ashamed of.
Grades settle with time, don't worry about it.

[Adam Lincoln]

Just had a message of Gus saying that this weekends ascentionists think that the route is E3. Can't believe I was this far out, especially with JB's grade agreement. A bit gutting I think, makes me seem like an idiot who hasn't got a clue. Poo.

They said E4 in the end. Like us though they had a load of pads. Have you been back and tried the new sequence Andi?

[AndiT]

I think its still worth E7 though, it felt like an E6 6a but harder - E7 6b?

to

They said E4 in the end. Like us though they had a load of pads. Have you been back and tried the new sequence Andi?

Strange, or maybe it's just a boulder problem. Personally, I can't see how there could be any comparison between a route like Thumbelina and, say, His Eminance at Bowden, irrelevant of a change in sequence low down. It looks like me and JB need to go back to Grading School!

Have you done the route yet Adam? I've not been back up yet, so have not tried the 'new sequence', I'd need the numbers on it anyway because I don't know what the score is with it.

[T_B]

The sequence is grab the undercut with your left hand, put your right toe in a small dish, left foot out on either a horizontal edge and throw for the pocket. This move is about Font 7a. E3 is probably being a bit unfair. The moves after the pocket are on very positive holds, and it's easy to reverse from the very last move if you like to a point where you can safely jump off. You don't generally get that on E5 grit solos, nevermind E6 or E7 (pads or no pads). The E5 to the right would be about E2 at Bowden, so it seems the grades down int Churnet are a bit off. We did The Pride as well which was v fluttery compared to Thumbelina. With pads, Thumbelina should really be regarded as a 3 star 7a high ball in the vein of Chef d'Oeuvre par example.

Now onto Cornelius - a different kettle of fish. We did it up to the jug, but no way was I going above that stump! It's probably 7b/7b+ to the jug, so I can see that V9 all the way to the top might be spot on. It would be a better climb without the stump and I'm baffled about all this talk of "taking it personally" if the stump was removed. It really would be one of the best ground uppable highballs around. It's been cut down to a flat top anyway which you can balance a pad on, so it does rather feel like a half done job.

[Fiend]

Andi I presume you graded it for an on-sight solo without pads, as the adjectival grade is conventionally used, and gave it a fair grade for the general Peak area (i.e. you didn't grade it for a ground-up ascent above a stack of pads in comparison to Northumberland of all places where the grades are totally fucked up anyway).

In which case I wouldn't worry about your accuracy until somebody actually does it as an onsight solo without pads and see if they disagree with your estimate.

Not that I think there is anything at all wrong with people speculating / estimating from a different style of ascent, but it is comparing....apples and pears...

[nik at work]

I'd agree with Fiend. Postulating the grade of a bouldery route above an army of mats and spotters is different to postulating a grade after a headpoint, but it is still just guesswork.

Any of the recent repeaters think they'd have done it on-sight/ground-up whatever without mats?

NOTE: I'm not saying the matted ground-up/flash/onsight isn't a stylistic step forward. IMHO it is but it is still a distance from a true on-sight solo of this route.

[unclesomebody]

T_B is correct in everything he says. Grades must be consistent, and I don't really go trad climbing so I can't offer any advice on trad grades. However, they are ordinal, and Thumbelina can't be easier than that E5 starting at the shield, which means that the E5 should be about E1. It would be far easier to give these things accurate font grades, making them clearly ordinal, and letting people know exactly what they are in for. Boulderers don't mind highballs, but they don't like E7's. My vote would be for scrapping E grades altogether on these things and sticking with bouldering grades, which are more accurate in my opinion. There is a crag in font with boulder problems higher than Thumbelina, and people just regard them as highballs so they take appropriate padding. This is how I approach the things in the Churnet. They are highball, so take enough pads.

I'm planning on going back on Wednesday to do Cornelius if anyone wants to join in the fun. I'm not going to cut the stump down (as I've written previously), but if someone else wants to then I wouldn't stop them. Come on down!

[Jaspersharpe]

It would be far easier to give these things accurate font grades, making them clearly ordinal, and letting people know exactly what they are in for. Boulderers don't mind highballs, but they don't like E7's. My vote would be for scrapping E grades altogether on these things and sticking with bouldering grades, which are more accurate in my opinion. There is a crag in font with boulder problems higher than Thumbelina, and people just regard them as highballs so they take appropriate padding. This is how I approach the things in the Churnet. They are highball, so take enough pads.

 

The hypothetical onsight without pads might well be worth E7 or whatever but the likelehood is that that aint gonna happen very often so a grade which everyone can understand (i.e. 7A highball) makes much more sense to me. It doesn't stop anyone from doing it without pads and claiming whatever E grade they like if they're into that sort of thing.

[a dense loner]

highball 7a? what nonsense. will we still think that when it claims it's first victim