[BD]

according to 8a.nu Stuart Littlefair did his first 8c today with "Make It Funky" at raven tor. I don't know the guy in person but he posts here sometimes so big up Stu and muchos respect

BD

[PATRuL]

Grand effort Stu

I saw the first ascent by Zippy who was all out
Then minutes later the Moon made it look like a path

I quickly followed in my head

Must be training at KK that  sorted you out

Hehe

[north_country_boy]

Great Effort Stu! 

[dave]

not bad for someone who's supposed to be injured! fuck i wish i was that injured.

[SA Chris]

Effort midget.

[Bonjoy]

Good work sir!

[Stu Littlefair]

At last a UKB thread all to my good self. It was my goal all along.

Got very drunk last night. Feel awful, but happy, a state of affairs that will last until Ru gives it 8b+ in the new guide....

[Ru]

After willfully throwing himself off the last move several times, it was a pleasure holding the rope when he finally decided to tick it. Meanwhile my Tor-ment (see what I did there?) continues. Damn this ridiculous weather and the resulting necessary early morning starts

[dobbin]

Superb effort Stu.

Early morning starts are the way to glory as all self respecting grade hunter knows. Good work again.

[PATRuL]

the key for stu i always thought injured or not was the colour of his hair
And he is learning more and more about the Hari Kari way

So Stu this begs the big question

What was the colour of your hair on said day of ascent?

Say hi to your Jewels?

The other big Raven TOr question is when will JOhn 'the Master' Gaskins do his project?
I want to belay him on it 15 st is quite an anchor.

[Stu Littlefair]

If inquiring minds must know - the hair was brown but greying with a minor bald spot where Jules had gone awry with the clippers. Fears that I would lose my almost mystical strength upon cutting my hair proved unfounded, however.

I may go back and repeat the route with my poncho on.

[Paul B]

Good effort 

[Nibile]

an almighty effort!

[Andy Harris]

Congrats Stu, a fine effort and thankfully you didn't get aflicted with lastmoveitis that affilcted other MIF asscentionists. It's still incredibly rare for people to climb 8c in the UK (particulalry those who are breaking new grades) and shows just how hard this is. It's funny on how the routes / boulder divide have changed.

I remember myself and John Welford thinking that "The Bastard" was probably Font 8a and that equated to an 8C route. This is when people were good climbers (say bouldering 7c+ and a few 8a) but only Ben & Jerry were bouldering hard. Now it gets 8a+/b and route 8c+. Now everyone and his dog climbs Font 8a but most of even those who are good route climbers have not managed route 8b+. So now it seems route 8C is more akin to climbing a Font 8a+ or 8b. Not sure if that made sense but I can't be bothered to check. What I'm getting at is that people are stronger (& fitter) but not neccessarily better climbers.

And finally I was also at the Tor the day Zippy topped MIF as the war cry of relief echoed down the valley. A true historical moment. I wonder who PATRUL is as I'd have seen him to. However it was Mark Leach who got the 2nd ascent followed by Ben and 5mins later, Robin B.

[north_country_boy]

I think more than anything it comes down to the individual route....For instance MIF and The Bastard are extremely bouldery and relatively short so would suit a bouldering orientated climber....

There are way more people bouldering these days but how many of those climb F8a? or even climb routes at all?  So how would all these strong boudlerers get on, on True North or Mecca/ M.Extension etc (which if bouldering Font 8a, then they are surely 'overstrong' for)

And on the flip side, there are people (smaller number) climbing F8a+ - F8b+ who don't boulder anywhere near Font 8a!

Maybe at this moment in time (last few years) it is more fashionable/accessible/easy to climb font 8a than F8a?

Maybe if more strong boulderers donned a rope, then more hard routes would be getting ticked!

(Incidently Stu is ticking both! - Bon Effort!)

[Stu Littlefair]

Cheers Andy,

I know what you're driving at concerning route performance versus bouldering performance. I remember being shocked when Ru and I went through the list of folk who have climbed 8c; there was so many of them, all of them old-school. It seemed like there was a golden-era when every man and his dog was ticking 8c (mostly Make It Funky, to be fair), which is something that almost never happens these days.

Then you view this against the background of the rapid and continuing rise in bouldering standards (we now have a situation where the "pack" has arguably reached a standard only just below that of the Ben&Jerry show in the "One Summer" era) and you simply have to conclude that there are loads of climbers around who could be climbing this hard, but simply aren't trying to.

Hardly surprising really. Both the training for routes and the actual ticking of routes requires substantially more hard work than the equivalent in bouldering. Bouldering power can be gained in short sessions of campussing. By contrast, route-endurance requires long, repeated circuit sessions that make you physically sick! Even once you have reached the required fitness/strength there still seems to be so much that can go wrong on a route compared to a boulder problem. On top of that, the window of opportunity to get dry routes in cool conditions is narrow and fickle. I conclude that ticking hard routes in this country is more effort than it is worth. This is probably
why we have a healthy number of boulderers who could consider themselves world-class, whilst ascents of routes so easy that even women and 12yr old boys can climb them is a relatively rare occurrence.

However, as a defence of the route, and route training, I would offer the evidence that power endurance training, and devotion to routes has done more for my bouldering than years of foot-off showboating at Almscliff ever did.

p.s if failing on the last move six times isn't lastmoveitis I don't know what is.

[Bonjoy]

Although there is a degree of cross-over, it takes a lot more effort to be 'good at your grade' on both routes and bouldering, than to be good at just one type of climbing. Given that bouldering is more popular than sport climbing nowadays (and much more , not to mention well catered for training wise), it's not surprising more people boulder hard than climb hard routes.
(written before seeing Stus post, which cover similar ground better)

[Andy F]

Very true Stu. I also think that Bouldering is still very fashionable, but Sport climbing is up there with 80's shoulder pads and Chris Waddle stylee mullets, hence not as many people are doing it. Which is a pity, as an f8a boulderer should be tearing F8a+/8b down with (relative) ease as the moves should feel path like.

BTW, top effort on MIF Stu  

[Huffy]

Guess that psyche came back then hey?

Nice one mate.

[Paz]

As well as the power endurance thing, it's just the other specific type of fitness you need to work moves on bolts/ when you're knackered.  Lots of people dogging look like they don't stand a chance, even on easy 6b moves.  A lot of boulder sends, even flashes, look to me eye like the climber's got the moves wired.  Refining sequences, takes time and lots of goes (if you're me anyway, as if I've done every move OK then a route's on from then on).  To find one little detail, basically can mean you blow a redpoint, where as getting similar info about a boulder prob is quicker as it's near the ground.  Plus it hurts.  Speaks me anyway and I'm crap at both.  Saying that I'd be surprised if more people didn't get back into redpointing again given the hot conditions it looks like we're in for.  Effort Stu.  Did you skip any clips like on Mecca?

[Doylo]

Good work Stu, it must have been an early start in this weather!

Which is a pity, as an f8a boulderer should be tearing F8a+/8b down with (relative) ease as the moves should feel path like.

Yeah they should be but its amzing how hard a relatively 'easy' move can feel when you've got a rope on. Thats what i find anyway. To do hard routes you need to be strong and fit at the same time. And thats the problem i'm having at the moment, getting one without losing the other!

[Nibile]

"ok you do it on routes, but youre not doing the hardest moves you can do, cos youre doing moves 20, 30, 40, one hundred foot up, so youve already done something to get there, so youre already tired. bouldering is all about your absolute maximum level."

 

[Ru]

Which is a pity, as an f8a boulderer should be tearing F8a+/8b down with (relative) ease as the moves should feel path like.

The thing people never take into account is the difference in style between routes and bouldering. Bouldering is a lot more bouncy, and flicky as it's a worthwhile trade-off to make moves easier but lower percentage. When redpointing you want the opposite - you want moves to be high percentage as you get less goes in a day to try them. This means that although the moves may be in themselves easier, you artificially make them harder to make them more static, to a degree. The old thing about there being 8b+ climbers in this country that haven't done font 7c+/8a is true, but the thing that's often missed is that they're old school route climbers that had already done 20 years of climbing by the time the bouldering mat was invented. It's no wonder they didn't develop the right style to climb hard boulders. Even by today's standards they were strong. I reckon if a young Keith Sharples/Simon Reed walked onto the scene today, with our training facilities etc, they'd have climbed font 8a easily. So back to the font 8a climbers tearing down route 8a+/8b with ease - take Magnetic Fields 8a+/8b - the crux is about font 7b+/7c, and it's about font 7a+ to get there (ive done 'font 8a' problems that are easier than that already, no names ), then after that about route 7b to the top. Ish. This isn't beyond a font 8a boulderer, provided they get fit, but they're not going to crush it.

P.S. I can think of one peak 8b that's probably got a font 8a crux on it, and it's not easy after that. It's probably not 8b, but anyway.

[Paz]

Wise words Ru.  Low percentage redpoints are a pain in the arse if the low percentage move is the last one on a long route.  Having lots of goes at it equates to lapping grade minus one or two so it's good training though, as long as you don't get addicted to failing or get head probs.

[Stu Littlefair]

Just been on the blower with Andy Harris (who I should thank for calling the lime so early), and he raised an interesting point. Perhaps the popularity of bouldering means that people were just better climbers back in the 90's. Thinking about it - you can have tons of goes on a boulder problem, so to a certain extent you can get away with being a clumsy climber who makes a shit-load of mistakes, and count on having that one, perfect, go to get you up. In other words, with bouldering there is no penalty to being the kind of climber who misses the odd slap or foot placement.

With routes having so many more moves, it offers that much more potential to make a mistake. So the sport climbers of the late-80s/early-90s had to be good, rather than strong. It also explains why people like myself and Ru can spend so long on routes that we are, on paper, over-strong for: we compensate for our poor form by needing to use that extra strength to improve the percentages on each move. By contrast, Rich Heap had only climbed font 7c+ when he did MIF, but got through on fitness and technique.

It will be interesting to see if the first punter ascent of an 8c opens the floodgates; in principle these font-8b beasts should eat routes like MIF for breakfast, but do we underestimate the skills required to do them in a reasonable amount of time?

edit: ru just said the same thing but in fewer words. It's like we are two people sharing the same brain. Scary.

[Stu Littlefair]

p.s yes, yes, fucking YES!

[Andy F]

Stu, I would hardly class you as a 'punter'  . I wish I was as punterish as you. Or Ru.

[Sloper]

Simon Reed is a beast, I'd bet good money if he was young free single and unemployed he'd be ripping it up with the best of the young hot shots.

[fatdoc]

great thread...

best for weeks.
 if i may extend the the thought process - when adam wainright did zoolook, and that night in the pub couldnt do more than 2 pull ups on the bog doors!! (bet). he'd climbed all his life though.

In times gone by many of us 90s lycra redpointers at 8a would no way be able to do a font 7a....

i'm mearly adding to ru's synopsis here, not making out that the *old school* (god, that makes me feel old) are / were better climbers, just more efficent perhaps???
 
i saw  / belayed zippy for months on MIF, his ascent was sooo impressive. please, dont down grade it ru!!

[PATRuL]

Oh appologises humble punters of the white stuff

I get so confused at the Tor, lines chalking up everywhere
Perhaps it was Zippy on Sardine then i don't know
I'm not a climber anyway i just picked this forum up off Google
It's jolly good fun though
What is a punter
Hmm yes i see i've just flicked through the climbing lingo website
Yes someone who ambles in ponchos and socks

What is 8c when 4c is considered a rest
As for climbing technique i've seen some very good young children at the local wall all very natural and fluid, clearly little training needed for them
I would like to suggest to these mentioned meat beast that power isnt everything
One once suggested to Mr Moon, in a dreamof course, that one should start of routing in life, then stamin power as one gettts older and power for the wise older climber, not many people can contain power and ego inflation
These are the wise musing of a would be bumble bee, is that the right term chaps

One is glad to see Cambridge has a strong history at the Tor
Actually one does has a climbing identity as a member of the Fenland Mountain Rescue Service
We run a top quality service out of Histon i think it is
Histon incidently got promoted this year to the same division as Cambridge United fine show
That football talk for you chaps which i guess is a little of topic

So back to MIF, doesn't it go back to the said nightclub in Sheffield town?

[Ru]

The downgrade thing is more Stu's paranoia rather than something I was considering.

In times gone by many of us 90s lycra redpointers at 8a would no way be able to do a font 7a....

I don't believe you. Having said that I remember a conversation we had at the wall back when I was about 16 - some of the locals had just been on their first font trip and had had their arses kicked on font 7as. Some of them were 8b climbers. The conversation was with them and Tony Mitchell, and the opinion was that 7a was desperate and font 7c impossible. Of course this was simply not being used to the style, as Tony had climbed 8cs with font 7c cruxes by then, and I reckon every problem were were doing at the wall on the cellar board was about 7b+-7c+.

[The Sausage]

hey stu. i never said you could use a picture of me on your profile...

[BD]

"ok you do it on routes, but youre not doing the hardest moves you can do, cos youre doing moves 20, 30, 40, one hundred foot up, so youve already done something to get there, so youre already tired. bouldering is all about your absolute maximum level."

nice ben moon quote.

Here in belgium things are a bit different because we don't have real boulders so everybody's sportclimbing but without many topclimbers. most people here arent that obsessed with numbers like the average uk-boulderrer.
on the other hand it's strange so little people in the uk sportclimb because a route with a single 7A bouldercrux can get a 7b+ route quotation as i found out yesterday, so it's easier if you're chasing grades. the rest was only 6b maybe so if you chose you're routes right...

As for climbing technique i've seen some very good young children at the local wall all very natural and fluid, clearly little training needed for them
I would like to suggest to these mentioned meat beast that power isnt everything

nope, but young children can't get pumped so it's much easier to take your time on a route and just relax until you've figured out the moves.

BD
btw: i could barely climb font 7A when i did my first f7c+ so there really is some great sence in all of this.

[Bonjoy]

Saying 'the old school' were better climbers is misty-eyed revisionist nonsense. They were better at doing sport routes because that's what they were psyched for and that's what they spent time doing. Nowadays most young hotshots are more psyched to boulder hard and are hence better at doing that. Saying one group were better climbers than the other is saying that one type of climbing is better, or harder per se than the other, which is about as valid as saying today's snowboarders aren't as good as yesterday's skiers used to be.
 Perhaps you could make a case that said old-school climbed things in a higher percentage way (as explained by Ru) and that this way being more deliberate, static and slick-looking in lycra, was hence more stylish. But this does not mean better because it's not the most efficient way to boulder and bouldering is what people are trying to hone themselves for. Surely developing the ponderous static obsession of a sport climber would be nothing but a hindrance for a boulderer.

[Ru]

They were better at doing sport routes because that's what they were psyched for and that's what they spent time doing.

Quite.

[Pantontino]

The other factor is the amount of time people are able to dedicate to climbing. When I was in my early 20s I was doing it pretty much full time. I spent a lot of time on the dole, and this was the same for a lot of my climbing mates. These days I don't know anybody who climbs full time; everybody works. The bottom line is that doing routes take up more time than bouldering.

I guess somebody will point out that the older generation who are still into sport climbing don't have much time either these days - my only explanation for the fact that many of them haven't switched to the less time pressured activity of bouldering, is that they have just found what they like, or got stuck with a habitual way of climbing and are thus unlikely/unwilling to change.

[Monolith]

These days I don't know anybody who climbs full time; everybody works.

I did it for the best part of a year and found it hard. Outside of climbing, there's only so many books/films one can sit through before mental rot starts to set in. I find that I possess much greater levels of motivation now that I have 'some' form of structure to my working life. Admitedly that working life is within the climbing wall fraternity, but work nontheless!

[Stu Littlefair]

Saying 'the old school' were better climbers is misty-eyed revisionist nonsense ... Surely developing the ponderous static obsession of a sport climber would be nothing but a hindrance for a boulderer.

OK, the use of the word better was deliberately inflammatory, but I still stand by what I said. It's not like the 90s climbers did get up routes like MIF because of a ponderous static obsession. The impression I get from talking to Rich Heap and Zippy is that they got up them with lower levels of base strength by being able to apply a snatchy style with a higher percentage success rate than climbers today.  I don't see many modern boulderers who can do that, which makes sense, as bouldering provides no incentive to develop this skill.

The plausible alternative is Pantontino's point that in the 80s/90s those doley scroungers had so much more time to devote. I quite like that theory as it goes some way to resolving the discrepancy between my three years on MIF and Roly Barker's three weeks (a fact he is sure to remind me of next time I see him). Logically, climbing full time must have played a big part.

Either way, one observational fact needs to be explained: the 8c climbers of the 90s were climbing font 7C+. We could assume that they could have done 8A/8A+ if they were psyched for bouldering and had access to modern soft touches, which is plausible but by no means certain. Even then, there are still between 50-100 people bouldering at this standard today yet most of them seem to struggle on 8b sport routes. Why? I don't accept they are not fit; many of them have climbed sustained link-ups like staminaband, which is on a par for difficulty with a route like MIF. I don't really accept that they are not psyched for routes - you see a great many yoofs tieing in at the Tor and Malham. We are left either with a lack of time, or that climbing style is no longer appropriate for route climbing.

  Patrul - heard about Histon the other day. Looking forward to fan's battles at the Anchor on derby days.......   

[Bonjoy]

Saying 'the old school' were better climbers is misty-eyed revisionist nonsense ... Surely developing the ponderous static obsession of a sport climber would be nothing but a hindrance for a boulderer.

OK, the use of the word better was deliberately inflammatory, but I still stand by what I said. It's not like the 90s climbers did get up routes like MIF because of a ponderous static obsession. The impression I get from talking to Rich Heap and Zippy is that they got up them with lower levels of base strength by being able to apply a snatchy style with a higher percentage success rate than climbers today.  I don't see many modern boulderers who can do that, which makes sense, as bouldering provides no incentive to develop this skill.

Very true. I was grossly over-simplifying to counter the deliberate inflammatory. Have watched Rich on some hard routes and it's impressive. Apparently sketchy and on-off, but surprisingly very effective.

[Serpico]

Well done Stu!!!!! Have you left your rope on it? It's tradition so that when someone asks whose rope it is you get to mention casually that it's yours and you've just done it. It's then also traditional to offer a load of unwanted beta Wears thin after a month or so...

Re the old school ascents: I was talking to Paul Craven and Mick Lovatt (both are the Wiki definition of old school) about this last year. The conclusion was that they weren't better but fitter back in the day. The ethos and training facilities at the time was all endurance based. so much so that they both reckoned that what was considered the crux on many routes was different then to now. For instance on Zoolook and Predator the crux was the first few moves, if you could get past them you'd do the route because it was just a stamina plod. Now everybody boulders the first few moves are usually flashed and people fail because of a lack of power endurance on the upper sections.
As for why all the strong wads aren't tearing up the sport routes: there are sound physiological reasons why increased strength, although it may make individual moves feel easy, doesn't instantly equate to increased endurance.
Anyway well done again Stu, what's next?

[PATRuL]

 
Yo Stu it will be pitch forks and tractors at dawn, will you be down here doning the said poncho and battle axe?

As for slapping up routes its the only way, its a wayward styyle but it works @ the end of the day we each have our own inimitable style.
What i like about climbing is the challenge of getting into the groove and finding the Zen flow which worked for me, ie meant i could not be so scared
However this flow is addictive and surely the cherry we all crave, because it always seemed to lead to success for me.

[Nibile]

Well done Stu!!!!! Have you left your rope on it? It's tradition so that when someone asks whose rope it is you get to mention casually that it's yours and you've just done it.

ahh genious.

[Doylo]

Even then, there are still between 50-100 people bouldering at this standard today yet most of them seem to struggle on 8b sport routes. Why? I don't accept they are not fit; many of them have climbed sustained link-ups like staminaband, which is on a par for difficulty with a route like MIF.

there is a difference between traversing fitness though and goin up fitness. My hardest problems have all been sideways shuffles, i can't convert this fitness to routes though, don't know why. I'd also say that technically whilst MIF might be on a par technically with stuff like Staminaband, in reality it is a far bigger undertaking. Only speaking from personal experience of course in these matters of course, i'm sure its a case of different folks different strokes.

[monkey boy]

Interesting argument this and having never donned a rope before i decided last summer when watching Stu working make it funky that i thought i should! So congrats on doing the route and also on inspiring a boulder boy to put on a rope! I hope i actually do this summer!!

Would like to convert my stamina band into something like make it funky, will have to wait and see!

[dave]

there is a difference between traversing fitness though and goin up fitness. My hardest problems have all been sideways shuffles, i can't convert this fitness to routes though, don't know why.

ditto - the reality of the situation is that just having to take one hand off for 5 seconds every few moves to make a clip, makes a massive difference. Not to mention chalking up. Then theres the thing of trying moves by pulling on from the ground rather than having to hang on a bolt. Thats why i'm against people trying to say that things like Pilgrimage are really routes, saying malc really did a F9a or whatever, he didn't. If it really was a F9a with bolts he probably would still be trying it, or at least have taken him a couple of years longer (possibly given up before getting there?), dogging moves, running out of belayers etc.

[ferret]

take one hand off for 5 seconds every few moves to make a clip, makes a massive difference

granted but, if Malc reclimbed pilgrimage with a rope making fake clips wud it then be 9a?
               ,  r people who skip clips therefor cheating?
               , r routes with less clips then easier, does grading reflect this?

saying malc really did a F9a or whatever, he didn't

seems a better description of the difficulty than a boulder grade, if parisellas went on for a another 100m at the same height wud it still not be a route?

Then theres the thing of trying moves by pulling on from the ground rather than having to hang on a bolt

which can also be dramatically easier to work than something next to the ground, there are many problems where the hard moves r too high off the ground to just pull on to them, careless torque, western eyes, west side story, are just some obvious ones that wud be easier to work on a rope. before u get to sequences that r seemingly impossible to pull on in the middle of.

i wud say that the answer is simply bouldering is in vogue and immediately more inspiring than sport climbing in this country. similarly in the basque theres a bizillion people climbing 8c and nobody boulders that hard, nuff said.

[Doylo]

similarly in the basque theres a bizillion people climbing 8c and nobody boulders that hard, nuff said.

aye ferret but those 8c basque climbers could boulder hard if they wished, the routes there are very powerful, not just stamina plods!

[dave]

seems a better description of the difficulty than a boulder grade, if parisellas went on for a another 100m at the same height wud it still not be a route?

no it'd just be a longer boulder problem. you'd still be able to pull on and work moves, not have to have a belayer, not have to fuck around with clipsticks, dogging through to the bit you want to try, busting a gut stripping it etc etc.

Then theres the thing of trying moves by pulling on from the ground rather than having to hang on a bolt

which can also be dramatically easier to work than something next to the ground, there are many problems where the hard moves r too high off the ground to just pull on to them, careless torque, western eyes, west side story, are just some obvious ones that wud be easier to work on a rope.

I agree, unfortunatley we're talking about long traversey power-stamina problems, not grit highballs.

[andy popp]

Meanwhile, up in Scotland, Dave Macleod does his Anvil project at 8c+, proving it is possible to do (almost) everything.

[Serpico]

While we're on the subject of Malc, he did True North (8c) at Kilnsey today. He made it look piss, there must be something to this bouldering business.

[ferret]

I agree, unfortunatley we're talking about long traversey power-stamina problems, not grit highballs.

the height of the crux of west side story is about average for many problems, especially in the US or font

[GCW]

While we're on the subject of Malc, he did True North (8c) at Kilnsey today. He made it look piss, there must be something to this bouldering business.

There must be something to diet and training too.  But Malc does come from a sport back-ground too.
Well done Stu!!

[north_country_boy]

take one hand off for 5 seconds every few moves to make a clip, makes a massive difference

granted but, if Malc reclimbed pilgrimage with a rope making fake clips wud it then be 9a?
               ,  r people who skip clips therefor cheating?
               , r routes with less clips then easier, does grading reflect this?

I seem to remember Buoux 8c mentioning, that after skipping a clip & taking huge lobs off Evolution resulting in near ground falls.... that if you have time/energy to clip all the bolts, the route may be too easy for you/you could climb much harder!?

[SA Chris]

Meanwhile, up in Scotland, Dave Macleod does his Anvil project at 8c+, proving it is possible to do (almost) everything.

Info here, but will put in a seperate thread http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2007/05/metalcore.html