[a dense loner]

it did say something along the lines of "why use one paragraph to make a point when you can use half a page to throw people off it" and i did send you a kiss 

[Johnny Brown]

Dense I have missed your succint genius. You have summed up PAz's entire internet schtick in one line.

It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are

I think this sums up the entire debate.

[Jim]

So whats next? Whos gonna be the first to publicly attack cairns and cairn builders?
Bloody hippy's messing the place up

[Somebody's Fool]

i've made patio's and enjoyed every minute of it

You're right there cock.  There's nothing quite like the giddy thrill of carrying out substandard building work at wildly inflated prices.

[AndiT]

So whats next? Whos gonna be the first to publicly attack cairns and cairn builders?
Bloody hippy's messing the place up

Damn straight, Kick a Cairn, Punch a Patio.........ist.

[a dense loner]

sf i don't give out +ve karma easily. you've earnt it

[AndiT]

It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are

I think this sums up the entire debate.

Boulderers being wimpy and making perfectly fine necky highballs safe would sum up the entire debate.

Patios don't look bad and they serve a purpose, but they do change the nature of the problem/route. This also sums it up.

As a boulderer you're unlikely to see any bad points, much as sport climbers see little problem with bolts.

[Johnny Brown]

Jeez, 3 pages in and I've only just read your signature. I've done, have you?

perfectly fine necky highballs

Before you start bandying these phrases about you should really think about doing some of the problems in question.

Your labelling of me as a boulderer speaks volumes too!

[dave]

Boulderers being wimpy and making perfectly fine necky highballs safe would sum up the entire debate.

Sozard, maybe we should all be real men like you. Us filthy boulderers aren't fit to lick the shit off your shoe O mighty route climber, who has no doubt never sullied himself by climbing a mere trivial boulder problem, pure as the driven snow, a far cry from us sordid lepers not fit to breath god's clean air. and don't get me started on those bloody sport climbers.

Its just a shame I can't find a smiley for arrogant, self-richeous and hypocritical. Or maybe I've just found one 

I appologise if the above sounds arsey (its meant to be), or if andi is somehow meaning to be ironic.

[AndiT]

Hey, I love bouldering, and routes (trad and sport) so don't get me wrong.

I don't see why anyone thinks they are in the position to 'make' something into a boulder problem, when it was, by it's very a nature, a high-ball. That's all. I believe I'm in a position to question this, you however aren't in a position to label me a w**ker because of it.

I don't know what Sozard means.

[AndiT]

Your labelling of me as a boulderer speaks volumes too!

Sorry does this offend you?

[dave]

I'm prefectly entitled to label you a  just as much as you are to label people as "boulderers", or indeed "boulderers" as wimpy whenit come across in the pejorative sense which in my reading of your post it was. However as a token of appeasement I'm happy to retract the if i can stick with arrogant, self-richeous and hypocritical. Not that you're in any position to call the kettle black when it comes to labelling of course.

[AndiT]

That makes no sense. I'm calling them boulderers because they are! I'm a boulderer too, I'm not a wanker. Self righteous perhaps but it's a point of view and a valid one.

Many years ago when pads first came out, the old school would guffaw at them as it wasn't the way, and was a bit 'girlie' in their eyes as they limped around with their knackered ankles and knees, but at the end of the day, there were plenty of good reasons for mats, physically and environmentally. In addition if you didn't want to a problem or highball without a pad for the 'full experience' you could.

If the landing has been changed you can't do this.

Dave, I'm not trying to be ironic or sarcastic, it's just what I believe. You have offended me with your posts and it's not what I was looking for from starting this thread. If you think I'm an arse when you meet me, please tell me then face to face and we can discuss your view further.

I will conceed that in the case of the moving bits and bobs in a quarry is different ball game to heaving more natural boulders around but I would add that is what this thread is about, so we can come sort of agreement of what is right and wrong. Perhaps nothing too terrible has happened yet, but this doesn't mean that it is not about to with established problems as people take this 'patio ethic' to them.

[fatdoc]

just to throw another concept into the mix here.... not antagonist to any on the thread at all...


wait for the air pads from flashed -- they will be shite, or change the sport as much as the invention of the pad did, maybe more....

the sport could well be a changin...........

IMO of course...

[Paz]

I tried being succinct before, but it just didn't suit me.

Sozzard = abreviation for "Sorry hard."  Normally sarcastic.

Hard, noun, e.g. as in `person good at fighting'.

Now can you two stop it?

Back on topic - are these the types of problems fiend sometimes refers to (or used to) onsighting without pads deserving E-grades.  Is that a point - that if noone onsights them then we should patio them.

[AndiT]

Fatdoc: I think they sound like a great idea and they won't have a permanent affect on subsequent ascents. A good solution.

[dave]

That makes no sense. I'm calling them boulderers because they are! I'm a boulderer too, I'm not a wanker. Self righteous perhaps but it's a point of view and a valid one.

You can't make a derogatory statement like "Boulderers being wimpy...blah blah blah" and then make out the use of "boulderer" there was merely a technical term denoting a person who engages in bouldering. The context for that statement was clear and is what I (and probably others) take exception to. It'd be a bit like me calling you a wanker (clearly in the pejorative) only to try and backpedal and imply that the term was used simply to denote an individual who has indulged in onanism (which I’m guessing you almost certainly will have unless you're in an extreme minority or are a monk), and to say "hey we all do it right guys? no offence". I don't see how you can assert that boulderers are wimpy or somehow lesser climbers when there’s a substantial portion of us have years of trad background and done pretty dangerous routes (or all grades) one way or another. If I’ve offended you well all I can say is I don't post on threads like this to win any popularity contests. God forbid I should offend anyone. This isn't "personal", I can only go on what I read here. If I went on say a sportclimber's forum and implied that sport climbers were wimpy/cowards without a hint of a joke or irony then I would expect to get worse than . If you don't want to be engaged in banter and a bit of lighthearted flippant emoticon use then this isn't the forum to frequent. its not as if I called you a paedophile or accused you of assassinating JFK or anything worth losing sleep over.

It seems plainly obvious to me that the whole patio debate is not as simple as black and white, its many shades of grey. This maybe irritating to discover as it means you can't quickly sum it up in an easily digestible soundbite. It would be remiss to just draw an arbitrary line in the sand, stand on one side and deride everyone stood on the other. Seems a bit pointless to talk about reducing the natural challenge and making stuff easier, unless you're going to only climb uncleaned unchalked problems barefoot without chalk, and without consulting a guidebook first. What if it turned out that nick longland had trundled a couple of dodgy blocks out from under tierdrop, would that make it less of a classic because the landing had been sullied by man's hand? Would we mourn the loss of a dirty seldom climbed E7? I doubt it. A route doesn’t automatically outrank a boulder problem in the pecking order, it should be based on quality.

Paz's point about things that havent been ground-upped is a interesting one.

[AndiT]

It is a grey area and that is why it is being discussed.

Boulderers being wimpy... yes that is what is happening when they make a highball, in the case in point an E5 6c with a bad landing which had been climbed ground up, into a bouder problem which has now been climbed by many. It isn't what it was. Even if it is E4 now without mats, it still isn't what it was.

This seems to be turning into an argument about the merits of patioing TAOWHW, which was not my original context. The purpose was to draw a line between what is acceptable and what isn't. You aren't helping matters being derogatory in a completely different manner. Calling someone a boulderer (wimpy or not) is not the same as calling someone a wanker. Hence why I became/am offended.

If you don't have something valid to say, don't say it. Or atleast if you can't say something in a productive manner, don't bother.

I don't come onto forums to join the bandwagon, gain popularity or anything else which you have misconstrued as an idea for why I might. I've posted to find a response to something which I see as unacceptable and to draw some conclusion as to what would be the best course of action. 

[cofe]

It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are

I think this sums up the entire debate.

 making perfectly fine necky highballs safe would sum up the entire debate.

i fear TAOWHWAOWHWOAHOWWHAWOWHW would have been destined for obscurity otherwise. a shame.

[AndiT]

Perhaps it would be useful at this point to draw some conclusions from all this fist waving:

1. The rearrangement of quarry floors is acceptable as it is man made and was just how he left it. This also applies to Beach boudering as the sea could have moved stuff (Porth Ysgo being a prime examlpe).
2. Moving natural boulders is not allowed as this is how Ron intended it to be (the back of the Pebble could prove a good example).
3. Use of tools is deemed unsporting and a sign of weakness (Car Jacks, Crow Bars or 'Sozzard Dave')
4. The style of the first ascent is very important in determining whether the floor needs a patio, improvement in style being the paramount concern (perhaps where most disagreement stemmed from). I still disagree with this one as I feel that a quick recce on a rope is much less detrimental than moving the ground around.
5. Branches twigs and leaves are in, when it comes to padding a landing as long as they are 'deadwood'.
6. If you don't say anything about it, over time no-one will know anyway 

I still don't feel great about this as I feel it's a small posse of people deciding what is best for everyone i.e. what is an obscure problem and what the future wants (that's how I see it anyway), despite the fact that it is a generally irreversable process. However, I hope I've made my point and I only feel it's a shame that the antithesis couldn't be true in which I could find a supposedly obscure boulder problem, sink a few nasty boulders beneath it and make a perfectly good 'necky highball'. Still, life goes on..

Cheers.

[Nigel]

I've just got back from my holidays and treated myself to a long session boning up on UKB on what's been going down. Oh dear. Instead of inspirational news I have to wade through 4 pages of waffle about patios 

Choose from the following well known phrases which one suits best:

a) Get a sense of perspective.
b) Storm in a teacup.
c) Ripple in a eggcup.
d) Slightly agitated brownian motion in a dewdrop.
e) What the fuck.

This will never ever be a problem until the first stop on the way to the crag is Hartley Hire.

[webbo]

many years ago on discovering a new line but was unable to reach the first holds.i pulled back the heather  at the bottom of the route and wedged a boulder in and did various landscaping to make it look natural.am i right in thinking this might be frowned upon now.

[lowlife]

OK, so you've established what a few boulderers / climbers think about it.  Now perhaps we should be considering what a park ranger or joe public would say at the sight of an apparently very muscular, blonde young lady rolling big rocks around to make a flat spot for her mattress.
The Eagle Tor thread shows it doesn't make one bit of difference what we think if Freda at The Farm comes to the conclusion we don't have respect.

[AndiT]

am i right in thinking this might be frowned upon now.

No. But if you'd changed the character of the problem/route then yes.

I'm running out of things to say about this now and seem to be getting less in the way of useful responses.

If you wanna keep patioing then just do it because you obviously don't give two hoots about what some other people might think. If the holds are too sharp on your project, just file them down, it'll make it a better route after all. Wire brushes are cool. Headpointing is well gay. Crouching starts aren't worth the effort, your bum has to be on the floor. Donkey ticks are really useful. People that climb indoors are idiots, people that climb outdoors are weak. Problems in the School count and can be used for grading other problems against. Font grades are useless unless in the forest, V grades are great, English grades even better......

Storm in a teacup, perhaps. But it's a cup of tea we all need to share.

Lowlife: Thankyou.

[Bonjoy]

 This is all getting rather tedious now. Hasn't everything sensible already been said?
 

The Eagle Tor thread shows it doesn't make one bit of difference what we think if Freda at The Farm comes to the conclusion we don't have respect.

Obviusly if people do something stupid in a sensitive place there will be consequences, this is far from unique to moving rocks. Careful consideration, think before you act blah blah blah....We are not children, do we need to always state the bleeding obvious over and over again?
 The problem at Eagle tor seems to have been caused in part by people shitting at the crag. From a landowners perspective I imagine this is far more likely to be a problem than visitors making adjustments to the positions of what to them are most likely insignificant lumps of stone.

Andi - Not to slight your rules but i'll be continuing to judge each case on an individual basis.