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Patio Building (Read 45314 times)

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#25 Re: Patio Building
February 26, 2007, 07:25:02 pm
Good debate, good views. I like dave's route/problem distinction and SF's rock/route distinction.

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#26 Re: Patio Building
February 26, 2007, 07:37:34 pm
I've removed rhodendendrons, but as I was informed they are some sort of parasite and removal is actively encouraged.

Word.  Make sure they aren't the only example of the species before you rag any more rhodendendrons out.

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#27 Re: Patio Building
February 26, 2007, 08:39:57 pm
Rhodedendrons.

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#28 Re: Patio Building
February 26, 2007, 08:48:42 pm
Rhododendrons.

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#29 Re: Patio Building
February 26, 2007, 09:01:38 pm

Bonjoy

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#30 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 09:10:43 am
My bible



Joke BTW. I'm not that much of a rampant patio advocate

Johnny Brown

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#31 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 10:47:56 am
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JB, I can fully see from your perspective about it being in a quarry, and have to agree on that side of things. But you must also conceed that you daren't do it before you moved the ground around and that you wouldn't be able to put it back to how it was now, you brought it to your comfort level, shame on you.

I not convinced you can say this without having seen the problem before or after. If you still want to court broken ankles just don't take any pads. Granted the risk of death will be less but I look forward to seeing you static on the crux, 'not scared at all'

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Hey, and whats all this cutting trees down shit! I've never done that, I've removed rhodendendrons, but as I was informed they are some sort of parasite and removal is actively encouraged.

I wouldn't call them a parasite, they are an invasive alien though. The point is you've been quite happy to alter the crag environment in other ways, why put dangerous rocks on a pedestal?

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Finally, JB, this isn't a personal dig and not even aimed at TAOWHW or what you did there, just a general thread about landscaping to vent my opinion as I don't like it. I hope you see it this way dude,


Of course. It is the 'case in point' though? I enjoy a good debate. Along similar lines, what do you think should be done with the lower tier erosion? Nowt?

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and I still want that print btw

Shit, sorry dude I'll get it in the post.

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#32 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 11:07:28 am
Your bible:

JB, that's my point in case. I would just leave it if I thought I was going to die, I wouldn't alter it to make it part of a circuit. Think how crap Doris would be if I went around and stuck all the holds on nice and secure...well maybe..

As for the Lower Tier erosion? Is it a massive problem, I'd argue that it is the footpaths more than the landing zones which are becoming most eroded, bar a few areas. I would suggest voluntary bans on areas to allow recovery as opposed to Bonny Brownboy Earth Movers corp moving in  ;)

Did you get my message about my change of address BTW? I'll message you again.

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#33 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 11:18:23 am
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.... leave.... how nature intended ....
This expression is a bit of a pet hate of mine and I'd have to take issue. In the UK virtually nothing is truly 'as nature intended'. Quarrying, deforestation, agriculture, game keeping etc have long ago seen to that. Does 'leave as nature intended' mean that everywhere should be left unmanaged and allowed to revert to forest, this is as close to a meaningful definition of the phrase as I can think of? In truth most people who say this actually like the countryside the way it is and don't want a return to the wildwood. In order to maintain what is in fact actually a transitional landscape it is entirely necessary to actively manage. Go out for a day with a conservation volunteer group and you'll find much of the time is spent chopping down plants. Likewise if some arbitrary quarrying activity has dump a pile of aggregate at the bottom of a problem, why not move it? You'd move it if the council had dumped it there in the last week or two. OK, it has naturalised and blended with it's surroundings. The fact is that when you move the rocks they will rapidly naturalise in their new location. You may destroy the home for a worm under the problem, but you are creating a nest for a shrew under the nearby tree. Crags are dynamic environments and if low key management such as vegetation clearance and patioing is done in a sensible mindful manner it it has every chance of maintaining or even improving the habitat value of a crag.

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#34 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 11:38:03 am
Think how crap Doris would be if I went around and stuck all the holds on nice and secure...well maybe..

wow. let me know when you do, I'll be straight down. That line to the R of Bobok would be just right if it was solid.

I enjoyed doing Bobok with Will "I am safe Ben just don't fall off seconding" and when reaching him finding a 15 piece belay all of which was shit...

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#35 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 11:46:02 am
15 piece belay, is he mad! Quality crag, made by the fact that it is soooo Death. You'll be the first to know when I get a glue stick big enough to set to work!



You know that I agree with that Bonjoy.

What I don't agree with is the changing of the nature of a problem, something which was once scary and dangerous, now is much less so. That change has been done by altering the environment. Whether it's deemed a boulder problem or route or something inbetween doesn't matter, it's just its nature. I'm not talking about kicking a pebble out of the way which might twist an ankle, I'm talking about heaving big rocks around, forceful stuff, you know what I mean.

I worry due to a 'thin end of the wedge' type syndrome. I'm sure the case in point TAOWHW is a much better problem now and is in some dingy man made quarry and not worth going to before but is now blah blah... but who decides the line between doing that and doing the same to RamAir, that's certainly not a one mat problem and those boulders would shift.... Also if it's such a manmade hell hole, what's the problem with bolting millstone or chipping a few more holds on Snivelling, nothing? We aren't really talking about environmental concerns here, as there isn't one really, there is just a climbers ethical concern.

I don't like the hypocracy which breeds amongst climbers. The same ones who attack the Headpointers, guffaw at those who use 'cheat stones' or start a move at a speed which looks any quicker than a space shuttle leaving earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.

The case in point shouldn't be the case in point, the case in point should be 'how can we see how this may develop'. TAOWHW was an E5, now it isn't and we have forever been robbed of that.

Bonjoy

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#36 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 12:37:50 pm
I'd wager it's still E5 without pads. Not that that negates your point.
The thing is, OK something is lost, but something is gained. I think anyone who did the prob/route would say the gain is greater than the loss. The peak has many leg breaker E5s that rarely if ever get done ground up, it doesn't have that many superb 7b+ highballs.
As far as 'the thin end of the wedge' goes. I think the diverse history of climbing in the UK is testament to the fact that the 'thin end of the wedge' rarely leads to the thick end and that as a community we are very good at policing ourselves.
 Realistically the number of problems or routes which can be transformed as easily and effectively as TAOWHW is very small. To stretch the metaphor, the wedge will never be very big regardless of how far in it is pushed.
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I don't like the hypocrisy which breeds among climbers. The same ones who attack the Headpointers, guffaw at those who use 'cheat stones' or start a move at a speed which looks any quicker than a space shuttle leaving earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
Headpointing doesn't appeal to me but I don't attack people who do it, verbally or otherwise. I don't think people like myself who have patio-ed stuff don't expect a reaction. I'm happy to debate the subject. It's good debate on the subject which will allow patioing to continue and yet not get out of hand.

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#37 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 01:07:03 pm
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earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
It's good debate on the subject which will allow patioing to continue and yet not get out of hand.

That's a bit of a shame, does my point of view count for nothing, if the point of view I raise leads to patioing continuing. :wall:

Pol Pot 'Thankyou all nations for raising the subject which will allow genocide to continue and yet not get out of hand', yeah, he actually said that  :whistle:
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 01:11:42 pm by Bonjoy, Reason: Added [quote] »

Johnny Brown

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#38 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 01:15:28 pm
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but who decides the line between doing that and doing the same to RamAir, that's certainly not a one mat problem and those boulders would shift....


Well for starters RamAir is hardly a highball, two or three pads and its not dangerous. Also those boulders are nicely embedded in turf, not sat on a balanced on a good landing.

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I'm not talking about kicking a pebble out of the way which might twist an ankle,

So at what size rock would you stop? What about the landing underneath The Block at Black Rocks? A collapsed old wall that made Jumpin E7. Over the years the boulders have gradually been shifted and now its highball V8. Is this a tragic loss of an E7 or a better route for it.
Personally I think you shouldn't get bogged down in grades, or definitions of route, highball or boulder. The essence of the sport is to climb from the bottom to the top with the minimum of artificiality or contrivances. For me moving the odd rock is less of a contrivance than pre-practice.

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I don't like the hypocracy which breeds amongst climbers.

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TAOWHW was an E5, now it isn't and we have forever been robbed of that.

I think your own 'routes better than boulders' prejudice is coming out here. Trust me, no one has been robbed of an experience here. As I said, you climb it without pads and tell me you're not scared first, then pontificate about the grade...

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That's a bit of a shame, does my point of view count for nothing, if the point of view I raise leads to patioing continuing

Well did you really think raising your point of view would lead to an immediate cessation of patioing? Your points are valid, but I think most people who have patioed will have considered the issues already within themselves and come to their own compromise.

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#39 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 01:16:18 pm
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Quote from: Bonjoy on Today at 12:37:50 PM
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earth also can alter landings and expect there not to be some sort of backlash.
It's good debate on the subject which will allow patioing to continue and yet not get out of hand.


That's a bit of a shame, does my point of view count for nothing, if the point of view I raise leads to patioing continuing.
Obviously it's not up to either of us to make the final decision on other peoples actions. I was just saying what I thought the likely consequence of the debate would be. If by raising the subject you moderate the level of the activity and make people think more before doing something I wouldn't say your point was counting for nothing.

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#40 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 02:19:45 pm
The difference being that in doing nothing myself, I am not seen as taking as a standpoint. JB, I have considered moving boulders, but then thought better of it. In doing nothing I am supporting my cause, but not upsetting yours, in you moving boulders, you're supporting your cause but defeating mine. I've spoken to Somebody's Fool, and the consideration given to moving boulders is hardly one which is greatly considered first, it seems to me to be more of a ' do you think this'll be better if we trundle that boulder out of the way', 'yes', 'ok, let's do it'.

As for the thin end of the wedge not expanding... well the whole reason I raised the point is that I have seen a dramatic increase in it. Otherwise, the odd bit, here and there, wouldn't have warranted me being a bit upset about it. I always thought those patios beneath Myles' routes at Gardoms were a bit much (A Tribute to Joe Brown?) as they clearly altered the challenge in the route, which was partly determined by the landing. Has El Mocho's Cratcliffe problem had a rumoured seeing too aswell?

I have a LOT of respect for many of the climbers on this site, BonJoy and Johnny Brown being well up there, both climbers being ones who I knew of, before I knew them because of their talents. I'm sure there are many impressionable climbers out there who would look up to you also as I always have. I would hate them to get the attitude that it's alright for them, it's alright for me.

This isn't like bolting which requires knowledge and equipment before embarking, just strong arms and a parquet vision, I'm sure if bolting was as easy as patioing, then we'd have a lot more unwanted ones adorning our precious cliffs. There are big changes occuring in bouldering at the moment, it is a activity which is rocketing in popularity, it could easily have a grim affect on many of our climbing areas.

JB, I've given it some thought. I think tarmac would be good on the Roaches Lower Tier  :P

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#41 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 02:31:44 pm
The peak has many leg breaker E5s that rarely if ever get done ground up, it doesn't have that many superb 7b+ highballs.

I think this is the key point. A classic highball 7b+ is ultimately more valuable to us than a micro route with a nasty landing. This is arguably disrespectful to the first ascenscionist, but in the end it is for the best. I actually think the same thing should apply to retro bolting too. In the Dinorwig slate quarries there are lots of sparsely equipped routes that have slowly been gathering dust since they were first done 20 years ago. These are not great routes (and mostly were only done with such a dearth of pro because the equipper was a skint dole boy at the time), but they would make good and popular sport routes. Everybody knows what the classic runout routes are, they are not in any danger of being retroed (I for one would be against such a move).

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#42 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 02:43:05 pm
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I have a LOT of respect for many of the climbers on this site, BonJoy and Johnny Brown being well up there, both climbers being ones who I knew of, before I knew them because of their talents. I'm sure there are many impressionable climbers out there who would look up to you also as I always have. I would hate them to get the attitude that it's alright for them, it's alright for me.
Unfortunately that's the downside of raising the subject publically. Patioing especially where it's weathered in is not always obvious to the untutored eye and i'm sure many people who are now patio savvy may not have been otherwise. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been raised,but it is the case that part of the reason i've never trumpeted my own patio efforts is the concern that someone might take the idea too far. On balance though I still think it's a debate worth having.

 Has it got more common, or have you just become more aware of it and in a position to hear about stuff you wouldn't otherwise notice? I could list a fair bit of landscaping going back a long time and I assume there's plenty I don't know about.

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#43 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 03:00:57 pm
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I've spoken to Somebody's Fool, and the consideration given to moving boulders is hardly one which is greatly considered first, it seems to me to be more of a ' do you think this'll be better if we trundle that boulder out of the way', 'yes', 'ok, let's do it'.

Don't assume a fool knows what has gone on in my head beforehand.

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I always thought those patios beneath Myles' routes at Gardoms were a bit much

Not sure what you mean, I presume Super-bloc at Moorside? If that's right, then the landing before was a drystone wall, it is now a slightly different pile of man-made stones.

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Has El Mocho's Cratcliffe problem had a rumoured seeing too aswell?

El Mocho's cratcliffe problem has had its landing altered by piling a load of branches in a crevasse. No stones were moved or added. Which side of your ethical line does this fall?

I think your comparisons to bolting and chipping are specious. Ultimately these are purely ethical considerations for climbers, not environmental issues. However landings affect both. In all cases I've seen altering landings has had either none or and improved effect on the immediate environment. On the climbing/ ethical side they tend to encourage (usually they are in fact designed for the sole purpose of) improving the ethical style of ascent.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate building patios for the vast majority of problems. A good rule I think is if a problem is established (like Ram-air) it should NOT be considered UNLESS the landing is detiorating and patioing would improve the situation. Your approach of no, never is a emotional knee-jerk that doesn't stand up to real-life situations.

PS Agree entirely with BJ's points above.

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#44 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 03:33:47 pm
It seems to me Andi, that you're bringing a rigid standpoint to this debate.  This is perfectly valid.  However it is not going to change people's minds at the click of your fingers.  This is not the Fulford High School Debating Society anymore.  And your mighty intellect is not going to reduce the opposition to clapping and braying like seals.

What you're saying is 'right'.  What the pro-patio lobby says could also be construed as 'right'.  Difference in opinion is one of the obstacles human beings face (vis-a-vis the Iraq situation).  However, as Groove Armada once said, if everybody thought the same we'd get bored of talking to each other.

As someone familiar with both the Staffs 'No' scene and the Sheffield 'Aye' scene, I would be more than happy to provide a professional mediation service.  At a knockdown price of £50 an hour.

Just don't tell those cunts at the Job Centre


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#45 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 03:53:28 pm
I thought a while ago you yourself JB mentioned someone else's conspicuous Patio building under or near (or in the same sentence as) Font 6bs at Moorside.  

Isn't that where it's a bad thing, where you're depriving someone else of a wilderness experience.  Hold the lecture, I know full well it's not really a wilderness, but just occasionally you like to go somewhere where it doesn't feel like 1000s of boulderers from all over the world have been before, and that's the important thing.  I guess there're always going to be such places, even in the Peak, but strangely I'd always thought of Moorside as one of them (having never been there - QED).  

There seems to be a bit of an assumption going on about how the majority operate (with pads) and that noone else does anything different.  There's definitely an older guard around (who I don't really `get' sometimes), whose harder routes that they headpointed pre-pads I elitistly suggest are the ones we're interesting in padding out, and have concluded may patio to death legitimately.  They did do shit loads of the easier problems just as they found them though.  Even amongst boulderers, we don't all, or don't always, go out and look for projects.  The circuit style of climbing is what a lot of people do, and (though I would in the peak) you don't necessarily have to hump a pad round with you all day.  

Our local bouldering circuit's landing needed to be cleared of blocks when the `classic' VD above kept shedding them from it's crux (and belay!).  I also shift smaller looser ones off normal routes if I can do so in control (without braining my belayer) and stop someone else hurting themselves with them, and recently I rip off as much Ivy, Brambles, and Red Valerian as I can be bothered with.  We'll lose good routes to them otherwise (a lot grow in holds and gear slots). I'm tempted to rip out grass and nettles too, but I don't know if this is obviously as good a thing - they aren't as much of a problem.  

In the Forest Of Dean, they've built landings out of sticks and `piles of leaves ("the local speciality").  Using all that shit's fine, it's only going to rot away anyway.  Shifting one particular big rock there would change an E9 project into an E7/8 one though.  That's kind of how the challenge has been left for others, so it seems frivolous to shift that one, there're enough other great routes of those grades as it is.  It's rocks that are the issue. 

On a route, especially microroutes, the ground is part of the route.  It's a factor in your head, while you are on a head route.  For me the difference is you're willing to take a fall off a highball, but not so much a route, and it sounds like this is exactly what's being changed.  I hope I'm wrong.  

P.S.  Does someone want to tell me what TAOWHW is to save me looking it up, or are Acronyms our latest attempt to stop Mick Ryan turning everything into a news item?

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#46 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 04:01:21 pm
This would never have been raised had you not 'puntered' me!

Perhaps they are both stand-point arguments. This is what I see as a shame, because in that case I can't 'win' so to speak. You'll keep patio-ing and I'll keep grumbling about it. I can't go smashing up the patio's can I, or I'll be doing the same as the perps!

It's not a Staffs 'No', it's an Andi 'No'. Andi V Sheffield, I always wanted this day to come. JB, bear in mind your pm referred only to things that Shaz has done and he has done lots of bad things....

Again it's not the environmental issue, it's the making it easier/safer thing which narks me. I just think things should be left like they are, you can always hire the big pad from the wall if you're that bothered and I can always borrow a 'death mat 2000' and make Tierdrop into an E7.

Paz, cheers for appreciating my point of view.



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#47 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 04:05:19 pm
reviewed post cos abused paz & AndiT. have realised they have enough on their plate already.
i've made patio's and enjoyed every minute of it

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#48 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 04:07:11 pm
Paz - If you read the whole thread you'll see what TAOWHW stands for and find most of the points you make addressed in great detail.
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 Hold the lecture, I know full well it's not really a wilderness, but just occasionally you like to go somewhere where it doesn't feel like 1000s of boulderers from all over the world have been before, and that's the important thing.  I guess there're always going to be such places, even in the Peak, but strangely I'd always thought of Moorside as one of them (having never been there - QED).  
Moorside has never been particularly wilderness like and I don't think the minor re-arrangement of a drystone wall and the ensuing rush of climbers vying to boulder out the highball 8a/8a+ above will change the place one iota. It's a prime example of something sounding more dramatic on the interweb than the facts on the ground actually are.



* TAOWHW stands for The Art Of White Hat Wearing
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 04:15:09 pm by Bonjoy »

Paz

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#49 Re: Patio Building
February 27, 2007, 04:17:50 pm
Did read the thread, just missed the `The'. 

I know BJ - I'm basically a bit ignorant about the specifics so put my stance down as `concerned individual' who advises restraint. 

If you came across a problem for the first time and found someone had made a nice landing for you you'd be happy, but if you revisited something after a number of years and found somebody had fucked about with it then some of us might feel peeved.

Dense - bring it on!

 

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