[grimer]

Saw a copy last week. Well done to all involved, tis truly a bumper fun book. Great info, looks fantastic, and packed to the gills.

Congrats to Simon, Al, Streaky, Rob, Pete and everyone else involved, even though you're probably sick of the effort by now 

[Pantontino]

Thanks Grimer. I guess you know all too well how we feel (a mixture of elation and exhaustion).

Here's me and Al with first books:

http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=189

Not sure if people on here have seen the article on UKC, but there is competition to win 3 copies of the guide. Thus far I've only had 1 correct entry. Why not give it a go:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=311

[SA Chris]

I'm too thick. Any clues?

[BenF]

Fantastic effort.  Well done to Simon et al.

I'm not sure about the competition and as I'm extremely unlikely to win a copy, I'll be out to purchase this guide as soon as possible.  From what I've seen of the guide it looks likely to become my favourite climbing p0rn for the foreseeable future.  My old Paul Williams guide has seen a lot of use (no, there are no stuck together pages) and I reckon the new guide will be equally well used. 

[andy popp]

I've got a copy. Its top.

[Pantontino]

Got another correct entry to the comp today - just one free guide left. It's got to be worth a punt.

Sorry Chris - no clues. It's too easy already. With a relatively small amount of research anybody could suss the answers.

[Johnny Brown]

Got my copy today - amazing. I've ever seen so much information packed into one guidebook, whilsy remaining a handy size - Lancs writers take note. Sets a new standard for selective guides imho

[r-man]

Got my copy today - amazing. I've ever seen so much information packed into one guidebook, whilsy remaining a handy size - Lancs writers take note. Sets a new standard for selective guides imho

Unfair comparison - the weighty lancs tome owes its size to its comprehensiveness - or were you suggesting that future lancs guidebooks also go for the selective approach?

Lancs issues aside, I've seen a copy of NWR, and agree it does look very well designed. Congrats to all involved.

[Jacqusie]

As far as I know the Lancs guide's not going to be selective.

What I do reckon tho is if its split up into two books ot would make for better travelling!

Selective guides are for zee Ruckfux...

Si

[cofe]

Selective guides are for zee Ruckfux...

they shouldn't have to be.

[SA Chris]

Sorry Chris - no clues. It's too easy already. With a relatively small amount of research anybody could suss the answers.

Catch 22 here. All the snowdonia guides I ever used are mouldering in a static caravan in Llanrug. Be easier to buy the guide for the answers.

[Johnny Brown]

Got my copy today - amazing. I've ever seen so much information packed into one guidebook, whilsy remaining a handy size - Lancs writers take note. Sets a new standard for selective guides imho

Unfair comparison - the weighty lancs tome owes its size to its comprehensiveness - or were you suggesting that future lancs guidebooks also go for the selective approach?

You've missed my point there - the North Wales guide is small, the info is massive. The size to info ratio is massive - that the lancs writers should take note of. Well I say writers its the designers/ compilers really that made the error. You don't need to mindlessly defend lancashire, I'm not dissing it. Everybody knows the Lancs guide is too big, not cos of the amount of info in it or the breadth of coverage, just cos its was made too big.

Perhaps when you see the North Wales guide you will understand. Its a very space-efficient book.

[grimer]

I agree Adam. Martin Kocsis, editing the kinder guide, and myself both agree that the Kinder book really should be a moorland griit book, with everything from Kinder, Bleaklow, Chew and Longdendale in it, but that everything should go in a single, proper-sized book. And doing that just takes imagination, a la NWR.

[r-man]

As I said, I have seen the NWR guide, and I did agree with you that it was well designed (ie.well executed in both style and function). I'm aware you weren't dissing lancs, and I agree that the next issue of the lancs guidebook should aim for something similar.

However, while the design could certainly have been better, the brick was a brick because it covered too much. It takes an hour and a half to drive from Wilton 1 to Trowbarrow, and these aren't even the most extreme examples. Surely these don't need to be in the same book?

And surely they'll have to slice it in twain if they still want to cover everything in the new incarnation. Like all new guidebooks, the plan is to include bouldering as well - with the amount of stuff developed in the north lancs area, I can't see how it would be possible to fit it all in one book. Two guides would do the trick: North and South Lancs, or Lancashire Limestone / Lancashire Gritstone. And yes, better design.

[Teaboy]

Sorry r-man, there probably isn't enough demand to support two lancs guides. What's more there ratio between actual routes to routes climbed is probably bigger in Lancs than any other outcrop area so the need for two guides becomes even more untenable. What is required is a way of making the guide smaller, if this means giving scant coverage to some of the real shite then so be it, I don't mean don't document them just briefer descriptions or simple topos for Crag Shite etc.

[Andy F]

Very vaild points Teaboy. I would think 2% of Lancs routes get 98% of the traffic, the rest, well go figure. Not to say they are bad routes, just that no-one does them. A slimmed down guide would probably sell, the minor crags just need a brief mention IMHO

[r-man]

Sorry r-man, there probably isn't enough demand to support two lancs guides. What's more there ratio between actual routes to routes climbed is probably bigger in Lancs than any other outcrop area so the need for two guides becomes even more untenable. What is required is a way of making the guide smaller, if this means giving scant coverage to some of the real shite then so be it, I don't mean don't document them just briefer descriptions or simple topos for Crag Shite etc.

From talking to Les I got the impression that the plan was to include everything. But I agree, selected coverage for minor crags seems sensible, if two books aren't possible.

Or maybe fully comprehensive coverage online, but only selected routes for minor crags in the guide book? That way, people would be directed to the best of the esoterica, and if they got hooked on the crag, they could print off a topo from the net...

[Andy F]

Great idea that R-man  . A slimmed down guide supported by an online 'library' should work very well.

[grimer]

One compromise I thought of, say for 'local' venues in the kinder area, areas that very very rarely get visited, is a combined print/web combo.

Say you had a crag. Get a really clear crag shot. Draw on lines and number them. Underneath, list the numbers, names and grades of the route, essentially covering the route on a single line. By doing this you could pack tons of routes into small areas, and if you were at the crag with it, you could still do the routes.

Then, on the web, put up pdfs of the names, grades etc with the written descriptions for people who wanted them. That way, if you planned to go to some esoteria, you could print it off and bring it to supplement the more bare topo in the book.

But, essentially the routes are all still in printed form.

[GCW]

Or maybe fully comprehensive coverage online, but only selected routes for minor crags in the guide book? That way, people would be directed to the best of the esoterica, and if they got hooked on the crag, they could print off a topo from the net...

Hmmm.  All we need is someone willing to set up a SouthLancs website with all the routes as well 

[Fiend]

There would be no problem at all fitting in the current Lancashire information into a nu-skool BMC style guide - there's a lot of areas that can be reduced to minor descriptions etc a la Churnizzle. Plus I was sure that the Limestone section is disappearing somewhere else.

[Andy F]

That limestone section could be incorporated into a book which covers all of the limestone found in the north. Oops, it has! Strange that isn't it!

[Fiend]

Except it hasn't all...

Ugh, I think there needs to be a seperate topic for this at some point.