[Stu Littlefair]

Winter Sessions never set out to be anything more than something for friends to enjoy.

Why sell it to the general public then? Based largely on the excitement on these forums I bought a copy for myself and for a mate as a birthday present. I do feel like it was a waste of money. There are lots of good things about Winter Sessions: the lighthearted feel, the footage of some poorly documented problems. This doesn't balance out the many bad things about it, which I'd be happy to accept in an "underground" DVD like doylo's efforts but seem jarringly out of place by comparison with the slickly produced commercial dvds that I've bought recently.

Arguing that it is well worth the money for the beta alone, or because it is a homegrown effort misses the point entirely. By pricing itself at 20 quid, and by being sold at outside etc, Winter Sessions pitches itself as a competitor to top-class dvds like first ascent and dosage. I can understand Rhys wanting to get his money back but to be honest it was bad marketing: people would have been happy with this if it was marketed as a low-budget, homegrown effort and sold for a tenner.

And the comparison to dosage etc is quite revealing. Josh Lowell got his money to make that series by making the excellent and very cheaply made Free Hueco. Winter Sessions could have been on a par with that film. Put simply, it isn't.

[SA Chris]

it seems a lot of you failed to pay ANY attention to the opening credits of this film....don't take it seriously! Why waste your time trying to compare it to Dosage you idiots, bejesus! you climbers love to have a moan about anything.

Straight outta rocktalk?

Agree pretty much with what Stu says.

Many of the things climbed on other DVDs I will never climb, but they are still inspiring to see. Buying a DVD for beta to probs I will probably never do, being an infrequent visitor to the peak, is not money well spent.

[Lostboy]

well put Stu 

[Pantontino]

So much negativity over a very small amount of money. I hope Rhys isn't disheartened by all this bullshit

£20 - a cheap night out for any of you surely?

As for 'slick and commercial', what's wrong with a bit of rawness? Films like Dosage and Memento are all well and good, but where's the humour ffs? I bet they employed a make up artist and a fashion consultant.

[account_inactive]

£20 is not that bad

[Stu Littlefair]

Simon - there's nothing wrong with "rawness" as you put it. There is something wrong with poor editing, bad camerawork, and a storyboard so misconcieved that we get to see the same problem climbed (in one unedited take, mind you) three or four times by different climbers (five or six times if you watch the almost identical footage in the "extras" section).

I'm sorry, but Winter Sessions is just bad, not raw. It's irrelevant to compare the price to that of a night out. This is a DVD, and for a DVD it's just poor value-for-money.

I too hope Rhys isn't discouraged, but without calling a spade a spade, how do you ever expect him to improve and produce genuinely good quality videos?

[Paul B]

I havent yet managed to see winter sessions, is it very different in quality/editing from the trailer? as that was fairly well cut together (or I thought it was anyway)...

[north_country_boy]

The trailer makes it look good........

[Blunk]

Getting to be a silly discussion isn't it?

As a foreigner, I really enjoyed seeing lots of problems I only get to read about in Ru's guide. Also gained an appreciation for how beta-intensive grit can be. I'll need to sharpen my heel hooking and footwork skills before I pay a visit to the Peak!

[grimer]

Yeah, I hope Rhys doesn't get down on this. In my opinion, anybody who gets round to actually putting a load of their own time and effort into something has done something great. Actually getting something like this finished is a great achievement. It could well be 'amateur', but it is that in every sense of the word, ie, I bet Rhys loses a lot of cash from doing this, if looked at in purely financial terms. However, like a lot of these sorts of things done in the climbing world, people don't expect to make any real cash out of it. The comparrisons with things like Dosage and First Ascent seems to come from the fact that they are in the same price range. If the vid had cost a tenner, then I bet everyone would have full of praise.

It seems the worst thing Rhys has done is getting his pricing wrong.

I'm not saying you're wrong to have or voice your opinions Stu, etc, just that there's more to the film than the film. There's what goes in to producing the film, the effort and the spirit, and in those terms, i say thumbs up to Rhys.

PS, not seen it yet, what's it like? 

[Pantontino]

Well said Grimer, you've summarized my thoughts exactly.

And Stu, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but do bear in mind that within the confines of this internet discussion there have been roughly twice as many people rating the film as those who didn't - as far as this thread goes you are expressing a minority view, a significant minority, granted, but a minority view nonetheless.

[Jim]

I've bought and seen it. I thought it was good. Obvious things like same problem repetitions and dodgy titles aside I enjoyed it and it got me psyched.
I might be slighty biased as I know everyone in it more or less and I feature very briefly in the start and on the credits but I still enjoyed watching it and have watched it a few times and will watch it some more.

[Jacqusie]

When One summer came out on VHS it was - what - £16?? thats a film I felt at tad cheated about (not enough quality grit action) and the quality of the production at the time was pretty poo - but it felt like a bouldering film as Si states - raw and without the need to be slick...

The Winter sessions DVD is nowt at 20 notes these days - its value for money in that it has such a long running time and you can tell that there has been so much effort put into it.

You bloody doomsayers should get off your arse - stop slagging people that do off and look at yourselves - how bloody negative do you want to be about something that is a bloody good ride for 20 measly quid...

If you want to watch Yank films with big ups and cerebral masterbation - then do that - but don't put down a guy who was just trying to capture the spirit of peak bouldering  - which he does quite famously...

Si

[SA Chris]

It could well be 'amateur', but it is that in every sense of the word, ie, I bet Rhys loses a lot of cash from doing this, if looked at in purely financial terms. However, like a lot of these sorts of things done in the climbing world, people don't expect to make any real cash out of it. The comparrisons with things like Dosage and First Ascent seems to come from the fact that they are in the same price range. If the vid had cost a tenner, then I bet everyone would have full of praise.

It seems the worst thing Rhys has done is getting his pricing wrong.

I think this is the crux of the matter. If it is amateur in every sense of the word, surely it shouldn't be £20? I don't think it's any better than Doylo's productions or the stuff put out by beardown.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favour of efforts like this, just feel at the end of the day if you don't feel you have got value for money there is a flaw somewhere.

[account_inactive]

When One summer came out on VHS it was - what - £16?? thats a film I felt at tad cheated about (not enough quality grit action) and the quality of the production at the time was pretty poo - but it felt like a bouldering film as Si states - raw and without the need to be slick...

One summer was a seminal film and therefore can't really be compared to anything else.  It was also called 'One Summer' hence the lack of Grit I bet

Its always good to see footage of UK stuff and familiar faces.  Its not the best film in the world but I'd rather watch it that Dosage any day

[Ru]

I wasn't going to join in this discussion and to help stay neutral I'm not going to offer an opinion on the film (save for a well done to Rhys for completing a big project), however I'm going to make some observations about what people have been saying. It doesn't seem that the £20 price tag per se is the issue, as, as many people have pointed out, it's not that much money in the long run. Nor is the amateurness of the film a real issue - everyone congratulated Doyle on his efforts, and amateur is often seen as underground and therefore good. However, what seems to have upset people is that the film they saw was not the film they thought they were going to see, imagining perhaps a Rampage but set in the Peak. It's a bit like when foreigners see Hubble for the first time and are very disappointed as it's just not the soaring piece of rock they thought it would be.

[Pantontino]

So some folk were looking for 'slick and commercial' and they got confused when 'quirky and underground' turned up instead. Funny how the focus was then put upon the price. I'm sure a Robbie Williams cd costs the same as one by Pavement, in fact the former probably costs less because of some Woolies chart deal (not that any of you actually pay for music anymore).

[Ru]

I think the emphasis on price was because it being in the same price bracket as Dosage etc was one factor that led to a preconception. I'm guessing here, I havn't bought a copy, but I have seen it. It's the same with any film. If you go and see something in the cinema that's been hyped and it's not what you expect you are much more disappointed with it than if you catch it on a boring Sunday night when you expected to be watching Minder.

Having said that I'm starting to get more and more bored by Dosage type films. I got the latest one to see Sharma on Dreamcatcher and Graham on Coup de Grace, but now I've watched it I'm not that bothered about seeeing it again. Seeing it was more like box ticking than an experience. For me, the wow and psyche factor seems to have left these polished films. Maybe that says more about me than the films themselves.

[Johnny Brown]

Amen to that. The El Cap stuff is amazing, but none of it would stand repeated viewing. I don't think the climbing is made to look particularly hard, though that might be a comment on Graham and Sharma more than the filming.

Its nice that Doyle and Kim can make these films and dole them out for free or cheap, how many people who don't know them actually know about the films or how to get hold of them? There is a certain time in people's life when they can afford to do stuff like this - you won't see another beardown film soon cos Kim's camera is broken and he can't afford another.

Another big point, many of these films stay cheap and underground because the hassle of doing them properly - sorting music permissions and proper duplication, distribution etc are in fact major and expensive issues the makers would rather avoid.

How good would these films be if they didn't have pirated soundtracks? We're all blase about getting music for free now but as a filmmaker you can't afford to be - didn't Johnny get sued by Zappa (one of his heroes, ouch!) for Stone Monkey?

If winter sessions was just the main film £20 would seem a bit steep. However the extras run longer than the main film and make it real value for money.

[Stu Littlefair]

Things seem pretty wrapped up here. Like I said, there are good and bad points about winter sessions, and it boils down to whether you think 20 quid is value for money or not. It isn't a lot of money in itself, but when you can get something better for less it seems the very definition of poor value for money.

Simon still seems to be delibarately misrepresenting what I said though, and seems fixated by my use of the words "slick and polished". I did say that this video being "raw" isn't the issue. I don't mind the low quality image/sound, but it's the way the film is edited (i.e slow and repetative) that turns me off.

Also, I'm amazed by people saying that the extras make this film worth watching. People who haven't bought it yet ought to be aware, that a large fraction of the "extras" section, is identical to the footage in the main film. There are some choice lobs though.

[Ackbar]

In the trailer It briefly shows Dawes doing some one-handed bouldering.  Is there much of that stuff in it?

[Jacqusie]

Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time.
But all the people can't be all right all the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.



Bob Dylan...

 

[erm, sam]

In the trailer It briefly shows Dawes doing some one-handed bouldering.  Is there much of that stuff in it?

Not particularly..

[lorentz]

I'll letcha be in ma dream, if I ken be in yours... an I said that...

[Jacqusie]

I'll letcha be in ma dream, if I ken be in yours... an I said that...

...que gob iron...!!