[Dave Flanagan]

What are they?
Who decides them?
How could they be enforced?



Here Simons 10 commandments

1. No chipping whatsoever.
2. No blow torching, even at coastal venues.
3. No wire brushing. Use a nylon brush if you are cleaning a new line.
4. Use less chalk and brush/ wash away tick marks or excessive build up at the end of your session.
5. Do not drop litter at the crag, and take home any that you find.
6. Do not leave carpet patches at the crag.
7. No use of resin (pof).
8. No glueing or hold stabilisation.
9. Use a bouldering pad to decrease the impact on the vegetation at the base of popular problems.
10. No gardening of indigenous vegetation.

[dave]

8. No glueing or hold stabilisation.

The above is the only rule i think could be occasionally bent.

[Bubba]

How could they be enforced?

By peer pressure and education, but they can't really be enforced.

5. Do not drop litter at the crag, and take home any that you find.

That includes fag butts and empty chalk balls

11. No shitting under the crag - find a bush or bury it somewhere.
12. Don't hog a problem - let others have a go too and share your pad with them
13. Spot your mates as you would be spotted unto yourself (hark at him!)
14. Train your faithfully doggy/kids not to lie on pads that are in use
15. Ask yourself "is the power scream I'm about to unleash really necessary?"

[jonP]

I'm afraid I disagree with most of those.  

A lot of recently developed bouldering venues have been cleaned with wire brushes.  Nylon brushes are useless for really dirty rock.  "No wire brushing of established problems" might be a better rule.

I doubt that blow torching does any damage.  

Hold stabilisation seems like a good idea on weak rock such as limestone.

I use a bouldering mat not to protect the environment, but to make falling off more comfortable, and I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone who bouldered without one.

The chipping, litter & pof rules seem ok though.

[Bubba]

I doubt that blow torching does any damage.  

I saw a post on another forum about this, and some smarty-pants came out with the science that showed that it would damage the rock - something to do with the rapid expansion of the water molecules within the rock or something.

I think hold stabilisation is ok so long as it's very discreet and not just a load of sica slopped about.

[Big Frank]

Use less chalk, Yorkshiregrit has just bought the biggest fattest chalk bag ever made, it holds a full pound of super chalk and has a pocket to keep his liquid chalk in.

Not to mention several brush loops, one big enough to hold a wire brush. :poke:

[AndyR]

I doubt that blow torching does any damage.  

I saw a post on another forum about this, and some smarty-pants came out with the science that showed that it would damage the rock - something to do with the rapid expansion of the water molecules within the rock or something.

Yeah, there's a lot of horseshit bandied about by people about the dangers of using blow torches.  These tend to stem from their overuse on certain rock types - for example, the types of Carboniferous limestone in the peak and yorks (and pen trywn, dinbren etc) contain a high calcium carbonate content - this does decompose on strong heating to form calcium oxide and CO2 - that's how you make cement basically - and this did use to happen where persistent seepages were blow torched - eventually this will lead to degradation of the matrix and crumbling of the rock.

There is also a problem where the rocks contain a lot of clay minerals in the matrix - i.e. gritstone, as these swell/shrink markedly with varying water contents.

If a blowtorch is used just to dry off surface humidity then there is no reason why it should alter the rock significantly - it's no worse than using a hair dryer - the problem comes when they're used on the wrong types of rock and used to actually heat up the rock itself - this can cause problems.

[AndyR]

Here Simons 10 commandments

1. No chipping whatsoever.
2. No blow torching, even at coastal venues.
3. No wire brushing. Use a nylon brush if you are cleaning a new line.
4. Use less chalk and brush/ wash away tick marks or excessive build up at the end of your session.
5. Do not drop litter at the crag, and take home any that you find.
6. Do not leave carpet patches at the crag.
7. No use of resin (pof).
8. No glueing or hold stabilisation.
9. Use a bouldering pad to decrease the impact on the vegetation at the base of popular problems.
10. No gardening of indigenous vegetation.

1. Well, it depends what you class as chipping - if there are razzer sharp holds that just cut your fingers up, then I don't see any harm in 'comfortising' them.
2. See my post above.
3. No wire brushing? Do me a favour? How would we get on at say, Glenmacnass without using a wire brush?
4 - 7 sound good
8. Again, don't see the problem if it's done in a sensitive manner.
9. Well we all use one anyway, but I certainly don't see why people should *have* to use one.
10. Indigenous vegetation - you mean like moss and heather? Yes, there's certainly a shortage of those in most uplands areas in the UK and Ireland.....  What exactly does he mean by this?

[AndyR]

Anyway (sorry, I'm getting on my high horse here), why do we need 'rules'??

[Dave Flanagan]

Yeah, there's a lot of horseshit bandied about by people about the dangers of using blow torches.  These tend to stem from their overuse on certain rock types - for example, the types of Carboniferous limestone in the peak and yorks (and pen trywn, dinbren etc) contain a high calcium carbonate content - this does decompose on strong heating to form calcium oxide and CO2 - that's how you make cement basically - and this did use to happen where persistent seepages were blow torched - eventually this will lead to degradation of the matrix and crumbling of the rock.

There is also a problem where the rocks contain a lot of clay minerals in the matrix - i.e. gritstone, as these swell/shrink markedly with varying water contents.

If a blowtorch is used just to dry off surface humidity then there is no reason why it should alter the rock significantly - it's no worse than using a hair dryer - the problem comes when they're used on the wrong types of rock and used to actually heat up the rock itself - this can cause problems.

It seems like quite a drastic solution to me.

Part of the problem obviously is that people don't know what are the "right" rock types to use a blow torch.

I heard there was a hold lost in Portrane recently?

[AndyR]

Part of the problem obviously is that people don't know what are the "right" rock types to use a blow torch.

I heard there was a hold lost in Portrane recently?

Ha, you cheeky tinker, you mean the one held in by sand filled cracks?? That hold was destined for the beach whatever, particularly with my fat arse pulling on it!

You're right about the rock types though - don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning their use (although I have used one), I just don't think it's quite as cut and dried as everyone makes out.

[gollum]

Problems will always be there tomorrow or the next day. Blow torching might damage the rock or it might not........don't know enough about it.

For me not worth the risk just in case it makes the first statement of this post not true any more. Having said that the Bowderstone is great as every time you go there is a whole new set of holds and therefore problems.......only joking.

I can honestly say that i have never blowtorched a hold, although as I spend so much time in my garage I think that blowtorching plywood would be a really dumb thing to do.
       
Let the rock dry naturally cos it will and in the meantime get strong like a beast.

[Pantontino]

This discussion depresses me. the last time this came up there did seem to be a reasonable consensus that we had to change the way we have been behaving at the crag.

I concieved these commandments after witnessing a rising tide of bad behaviour at crags both in the Peak and in North Wales.
The whole point of the 10 commandments is to give a clear/ black and white message to newcomers. I know that it is perhaps a little idealistic to expect everyone to fall in line, but I ask you all to think again about the influence that you may have upon the impressionable wall bred youths who are turning up at the crags all over the country.
If (for example) a young boulderer sees an older experienced local using a wire brush, then they might think that is how you should behave at the crag. Several problems on the Wavelength hillside were recently damaged by wirebrushing. I believe that the individual responsible did so because they thought that  was the done thing. Perhaps they saw someone else using a wirebrush and thought that was the norm.

I'm dismayed at the short sighted arrogance and ignorance displayed by the YG and Andy Robinson. If you two think that indigenous vegetation doesn't matter or that a bouldering pad is just there to protect you then you are deluded.

The following is a quote from the N Wales guide text that was written by Countryside Council for Wales officer Barbara Jones. In England the equivalent is the Countryside Agency; both of these organisations have a lot of power when it comes to land management (the CCW has over 600 employees!), particularly in the typical upland climbing areas.

"As a general rule, rocks that are good for climbing, are not usually good for plants, and vice versa. Plants of conservation interest typically like nutrient rich, friable rocks with plenty of loose flakes and pockets, such as the rocks on the back of the Devil's Kitchen in Cwm Idwal. Most traditional climbing cliffs are therefore not botanically rich, but where they are and where there is a conflict between climbing and conservation interests, agreements are generally worked out.  With so many new bouldering sites being developed, there is the potential for damage.  However, this is unlikely as most vegetation on the boulders will be common grasses and heathers, but there is always the chance that a site with rare ferns, mosses or lichens or arctic-alpine plants may be developed.  It may seem excessive to be concerned about mosses and lichens, but Snowdonia is an important place for these and does hold some rare species.  

The concentration of people around a bouldering area will result in more intense use than at more traditional climbing sites and therefore an increased potential for damage to surrounding vegetation.  Some of the boulders are in relatively marshy ground, which can quickly become trashed and eroded as climbers wander between problems and crash land from difficult ones.  The use of mats can help to reduce damage, to the environment as well as to the climber, but if a particular site is becoming badly wrecked, then some well thought out, but simple management techniques could make life easier for the climber and help prevent further erosion.  Talking to the landowner, or National Park, National Trust or Countryside Council for Wales warden could provide a solution and the BMC Access Fund can often pay for, or contribute to, the costs of such work.
If you are in any doubt about a site you are developing or visiting, then let Barbara Jones (Countryside Council for Wales) know and she will come out and have a quick look at the site to see if it does have any botanical interest or likely management issues. Chances are that it won't, but rather than cause problems later if you are found to have damaged or destroyed rare plants, why not sort it out to start with. Barbara is a climber and so will look at the problem sympathetically, but she isn't heavily into bouldering and so won't steal your prize projects! She can be contacted at CCW on 01248 385500."

The point I'm trying to get across is that if we don't start policing ourselves, be assured that sooner or later someone much less sympathetic will. If we are percieved as possessing a cavalier attitude to the environment then our access rights will be threatened, and in some cases completely shut down.

So, YG and Andy I urge you to tread lightly for all our sakes.

Simon.

[AndyR]

Several problems on the Wavelength hillside were recently damaged by wirebrushing.

I'm dismayed at the short sighted arrogance and ignorance displayed by the YG and Andy Robinson. If you two think that indigenous vegetation doesn't matter or that a bouldering pad is just there to protect you then you are deluded.


So, YG and Andy I urge you to tread lightly for all our sakes.

Simon.

I take your point - the wavelength boulder is composed of (relatively) soft weathered rhyolitic tuff (and agglomerate) - this particular rock type can be 'sculpted' by using a wire brush and their use on such rock types should be kept to a minimum.  However, and I have to use the situation here in Ireland as an example, we (bit cheeky that as I'm english... - consider it the royal we!) have mostly granite bouldering, and a lot of this is untouched - so if I want to go out and develop a new boulder or problem, I have to use a wire brush to get loose weathered crystals off the surface and remove lichen etc - otherwise the problem will just be too dirty to climb. I can't 'harm' the rock, as the constituent minerals are too hard to be scratched by a wire brush - I'd have to take a tungsten carbide brush to the problems to really do some damage (now where did I put my WC brush....).

Similarly with indigenous vegetation - I work as an environmental consultant and am more than familiar with performing ecological surveys - are you seriously suggesting that we consult an ecologist before we brush a 10 x 10 cm patch of rock on one boulder in a sea of hundreds of smaller boulders that will never be climbed on? The risk of causing ecological harm is so small as to be negligible - we don't boulder on large damp north facing crags i.e. areas that could contain ecologically diverse species, and we don't bother with boulders that are covered with massive sheets of vegetation do we? I guess if you were developing a new area up in a gulley on Llech Ddu then it might be a concern, but do you really think this is problem?

Bouldering mats - yep, they are beneficial in a number of ways - I'm not denying that - it's more the edict that they must be used - kind of goes against the reasons why I got into climbing so long ago........


I guess rules/guidelines are a double edged sword - they seem like a good idea, but  tend to cause more problems than they solve.......

Respectfully,
Andy R

[jonP]

I'm dismayed at the short sighted arrogance and ignorance displayed by the YG and Andy Robinson.

I kind-of expected a response like this.  

Wire-brushing: I suggested that wire-brushing was ok on really dirty rock and not on well established problems.  I don't think there will be any impressionable wall-bred climbers around where there is dirty rock and no established problems - I'm thinking about crags in Yorkshire that very few (if any) people know about (they do exist!), so the chances of giving the wrong impression are zero.  I'm not talking about Burbage or the Cromlech boulders or any place like that.

Ecological damage: For every square metre of climbable rock I find, there's a thousand square metres of rock that's useless from a bouldering point of view.  Again I'm thinking of the boulders I explore in Yorkshire - most boulders are too small, too big, too dirty or have no holds.  So the ecological damage is minimal.  And anyway, who's going to notice if a couple of holds on a tiny boulder in the middle of nowhere have slightly less loose grit on them than they used to?

I'm really not short-sighted, arrogant or ignorant.  I suspect we're in much greater agreement than you think, but we're talking about different situations.  I'm just sick of the whole "how dare you touch the rock with a wire brush" knee-jerk reaction you get from ignorant Rocktalk-type people who've never climbed anywhere more adventurous than the Plantation, and I don't think your ten rules help at all.

[Pantontino]

Okay, so if you think that my 10 rules don't help at all, what do you suggest?

What interests me is how agencies with power (like the CCW, the National Trust, National Park Authorities) percieve bouldering culture. I think we need to be careful how we present ourselves.

Yes, climbing will always have an underlying anarchic spirit, and I hope this continues, but we need to think hard about our image. Some of your statements earlier in this thread could be taken as a threat, or just plain reckless by people who have a different agenda to us.

I should add that I do understand where you are coming from; I argued a case for carefully considered blowtorching on a web forum a few years ago. I knew that I would do it in a sensitive manner, and thus saw no need for a heavy handed imposition of rules. I've since changed my mind. I believe we all have a responsibility to consider the influence of our actions. I will never use a blow torch or a wire brush again, and like you I am still very active in developing new crags and problems. I have no wish to lay a load of hippy bullshit on you, but I do feel better about the way that I am climbing.


All I'm asking is that you think about what you are doing (which to be fair it sounds like you are).

Simon.

[AndyR]

Okay, so if you think that my 10 rules don't help at all, what do you suggest?

What interests me is how agencies with power (like the CCW, the National Trust, National Park Authorities) percieve bouldering culture. I think we need to be careful how we present ourselves.


Simon.

As YG said earlier, I don't think we're coming from that different a perspective to yourself.  I guess my main bugbear is with the development of 'rules' - I'm one of those awkward sods who dislikes being told exactly what I can or can't do when I go outside into the natural environment.

But I totally take your point about human pressure being put on popular areas and the way in which we as boulderers are perceived by stat and non-stat bodies.  I guess the most obvious way in which we're represented is in guidebooks (and web-sites with guides to a lesser extent) as these are black & white documents that can be used as evidence both for and against our perverted practices......  So I guess there may be room for a less specific code of practice, or loose set of guidelines in the front of such a document?

[dave]

As i belive I've said before on this forum somewhere, the whole problem with the wirebrushing is the hypocracy displayed when you hear people saying stuff like "yes I aggree people should not use wirebrushes" and then in the next breath "of course it goes without saying that I am OK to use one, cos I'm being extra carefull not to damage the rock, unlike everyone else", yeah like everyone who's using a WB doesn't think they are being careful. Given the damaage thats been done to existing problems, and problems with great bit orange mark all overthem it is really worth it just to save half an hours brushing with a stiff scrubbing brush?

As for blowtorching, if a hold is too wet to be dried with bartowels and a bit of chalk, then just leave the problem. If the National Trust/whoever walks past and sees you taking a blowtorch to the rock they're not going to give a fuck how wet your crux hold is.

[AndyR]

Given the damaage thats been done to existing problems, and problems with great bit orange mark all overthem it is really worth it just to save half an hours brushing with a stiff scrubbing brush?

I think we're all agreed that clean and established problems shouldn't be wire brushed (as there's no need).  I think the grey area is when it comes to developing new areas - believe me, you wouldn't get anywhere with a stiff nylon brush on most unclimbed granite.

[Bubba]

Wire brushes tread that fine line - ok, we all know that some might be able to use them sensibly but since they're so easy to overuse, as a general "rule", I think it's better to say leave them at home, especially when you're talking to those who might not appreciate how easy some rocktypes are to damage.

I don't think Pantontino is trying to lay down hard and fast "rules", more like guidelines, or something.

[dave]

BUt it not responsible experienced climbers like you or I going out and damaging existing problems, its beginners who see/hear of wirsebrushes being used for whatever reason (unclimbed granite or not), dig out their dad's wirebrush from the garage and take it out climbing to stanage. You might not think you're doing any damage when you're wirebrushing, indeed you probably won't be doing any physical damage, but the damage is done second or third hand by contributing to wirebrush culture. You know, almost every photo of Dawes these days has a WB hanging from his harness, but its OK cos he's special apparently. Cheers Johnny. Christ I've even seen wirebrushes on burbage south boulders, and even in the Edge bouldering wall.

[Bubba]

indeed you probably won't be doing any physical damage, but the damage is done second or third hand by contributing to wirebrush culture.

Yes, you have a good point there Dave.

[AndyR]

indeed you probably won't be doing any physical damage, but the damage is done second or third hand by contributing to wirebrush culture.

Yes, you have a good point there Dave.

Yep, you're right, there are always young and impressionable people in any sport.  I take it that you basically climb in the peak? I agree that with the soft rock and the fact there there really aren't any new areas (notwithstanding the odd boulder here and there on stanton moor etc), coupled with probably the highest density of climbers in the whole british isles, there really is no need to even own a wire brush, let alone use one at the crag.
All I'm saying is that in other areas (lets say, all those schist boulders being developed in scotland), where there are very few climbers, it's very difficult to see why such a black and white judgement should stick in those places.

[Dave Flanagan]

 However, and I have to use the situation here in Ireland as an example, we (bit cheeky that as I'm english... - consider it the royal we!) have mostly granite bouldering, and a lot of this is untouched - so if I want to go out and develop a new boulder or problem, I have to use a wire brush to get loose weathered crystals off the surface and remove lichen etc - otherwise the problem will just be too dirty to climb.
I can't 'harm' the rock, as the constituent minerals are too hard to be scratched by a wire brush

I disagree, look at the sloper on the Fin, it wasn't always that color (orange) all the texture has been brushed out of it. Its a worse hold because of wirebrushing.

Another interesting contrast is between the Rails (5+) and the sitstart to the right (7a ish). The Rails has had hundreds of ascents the sitstart less than 10, which is overbrushed with shiny orange holds? the sitstart.

[dave]

all those schist boulders being developed in scotland.

No need to be nasty.
 


I'm surprised we've not heard from Lincolnmaster-A on this one, i seem to remember some cocktalk threads about wirebrushing where you had some imput ages ago, whats your position on this subject? cheers.