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Possible Smith Rock mass shooting averted (Read 4778 times)

Durbs

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I'm consistently surprised by how much attention is given to the problem of gun violence in America by British news and even in media around the rest of the world. It may sound a bit callous but I see it as an American problem (And it's far from their largest problem) to be solved by Americans.

I think it's partly that to us, it seems like such an easy problem to fix with very few downsides aside from pissing off some NRA fans and right-wingers in the South.

duncan

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Yes, however, the 90-120 guns/100 people is slightly misleading, in as much as many US gun owners own multiple weapons. It looks, though is difficult to be certain, as if distribution (% of population owning guns, is similar).
I agree, the best measure would probably be something like ‘number of people with immediate access to a gun’. Unfortunately this data does not exist, as far as I know, so we have to use the cruder ‘number of guns’. Perhaps the US figure is biased a bit by gun collectors but not hugely.

I had a quick look and Swiss military gun possession has changed a bit since I resided there, but not completely. Essentially, there are a lot of military grade weapons in peoples homes in Switzerland. However, they don’t have the same kind of mass shooting issues that the US do.
It is understandable to focus on mass shootings, as I did when I started this thread. In cold unemotional terms though, mass shootings are a very small proportion of the total number of shooting deaths. Most of these are suicides or domestic disputes. As jwi says, don’t keep a gun handy in the house.

As you point out Switzerland doesn't have mass shootings like the US but their shooting death numbers are still high compared with countries with very low gun ownership like the UK. Suicides, 'accidents', men killing their partners. This is also true in other developed countries with generally low levels of violence but relatively high levels of gun ownership: their gun deaths are much higher than developed countries with low levels of gun ownership. Within the US, states with lower levels of gun ownership are associated with lower levels of gun deaths. Switzerland is not an argument for “guns don’t kill, people do”.

I'm consistently surprised by how much attention is given to the problem of gun violence in America by British news and even in media around the rest of the world. It may sound a bit callous but I see it as an American problem (And it's far from their largest problem) to be solved by Americans. I'm not sure why so many people here are so ready to get involved in this debate as opposed to say the conversation about drug deaths due to fentanyl or horrific gang violence in Mexico or the current sweep of military coups running through Africa.

Do you think it's its just that violent headlines sell? or maybe just that it's the shock value which attracts the audience?

As an example of what I'm talking about the guardian seems to regularly bleat on about American shootings whilst relatively little attention is paid to the problem of violent crime in the UK.
The Guardian website has a large international readership - about 1/3 of readers are from the US - so they cover news from that part of the world. It is also a rare opportunity for Brits. to feel superior to Americans. Plus ‘if it bleeds, it leads’...

I find it interesting because I have lived in the USA and once contemplated emigrating there. I find Americans generally lovely people but, as Potash said, many have a complete blind-spot on guns. I have tried to understand this.

A good summary of the data in pictures here

slab_happy

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The Guardian website has a large international readership - about 1/3 of readers are from the US - so they cover news from that part of the world. It is also a rare opportunity for Brits. to feel superior to Americans. Plus ‘if it bleeds, it leads’...

Yeah, I was going to say. They've got US offices and a whole US side to their operations (which is officially considered a US news outlet for purposes of eligibility for the Pulitzer Prize, which they shared with the Washington Post for their reporting on the Edward Snowden leaks).

Interest from UK readers is certainly one factor, but, especially if you're reading the website rather than the print edition, there'll be a lot of US coverage partly because they have a lot of US readers.

Oldmanmatt

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Yes, however, the 90-120 guns/100 people is slightly misleading, in as much as many US gun owners own multiple weapons. It looks, though is difficult to be certain, as if distribution (% of population owning guns, is similar).
I agree, the best measure would probably be something like ‘number of people with immediate access to a gun’. Unfortunately this data does not exist, as far as I know, so we have to use the cruder ‘number of guns’. Perhaps the US figure is biased a bit by gun collectors but not hugely.

I had a quick look and Swiss military gun possession has changed a bit since I resided there, but not completely. Essentially, there are a lot of military grade weapons in peoples homes in Switzerland. However, they don’t have the same kind of mass shooting issues that the US do.
It is understandable to focus on mass shootings, as I did when I started this thread. In cold unemotional terms though, mass shootings are a very small proportion of the total number of shooting deaths. Most of these are suicides or domestic disputes. As jwi says, don’t keep a gun handy in the house.

As you point out Switzerland doesn't have mass shootings like the US but their shooting death numbers are still high compared with countries with very low gun ownership like the UK. Suicides, 'accidents', men killing their partners. This is also true in other developed countries with generally low levels of violence but relatively high levels of gun ownership: their gun deaths are much higher than developed countries with low levels of gun ownership. Within the US, states with lower levels of gun ownership are associated with lower levels of gun deaths. Switzerland is not an argument for “guns don’t kill, people do”.

I'm consistently surprised by how much attention is given to the problem of gun violence in America by British news and even in media around the rest of the world. It may sound a bit callous but I see it as an American problem (And it's far from their largest problem) to be solved by Americans. I'm not sure why so many people here are so ready to get involved in this debate as opposed to say the conversation about drug deaths due to fentanyl or horrific gang violence in Mexico or the current sweep of military coups running through Africa.

Do you think it's its just that violent headlines sell? or maybe just that it's the shock value which attracts the audience?

As an example of what I'm talking about the guardian seems to regularly bleat on about American shootings whilst relatively little attention is paid to the problem of violent crime in the UK.
The Guardian website has a large international readership - about 1/3 of readers are from the US - so they cover news from that part of the world. It is also a rare opportunity for Brits. to feel superior to Americans. Plus ‘if it bleeds, it leads’...

I find it interesting because I have lived in the USA and once contemplated emigrating there. I find Americans generally lovely people but, as Potash said, many have a complete blind-spot on guns. I have tried to understand this.

A good summary of the data in pictures here

Surely the heart of this thread is the “mass shooting” phenomena?
At the risk of sounding heartless, which I’m definitely not, suicide is suicide and the method, for those determined, is moot. I suppose an argument can be made for the immediacy and ease of an available firearm preventing “second thoughts”, but, unfortunately killing one’s self is distressingly easy.

The data I linked to, along with other studies, suggest that though there are more guns per head, in the US, they don’t appear to be present in a significantly larger number of households than high gun ownership European nations. I wondered if it was the availability of military style weapons, but the Swiss example seems to mitigate against that.
I first visited the US in 1980, aged 10. My old man drove us, in an RV, from Mexico to Canada up the West Coast, over a two month period; visiting relatives and pen pals as well as doing the tourist thing.
I have lived in the US several times during my life. I did a year of Middle School in San Jose, California. I was based in Rosy Roads (Puerto Rico) and then Port Canaveral for a couple of years, doing “Drug Interdiction” stuff, mid ‘90s. I worked in Universal Shipyards, Thunderbolt, Savannah, for a year, ‘99-‘00, then in and out of Bar Harbour, Maine for six months.
I love the country. I hated the people in the South. I feel bad saying that, but I did/do. Really, I mean the white people, because associating with anyone else was next to impossible.
I digress, sorry.

I wonder if part of the problem is the veneration of military service, amongst a certain section of the population?
It is such a complex and diverse country and population though, pinning down any single factor seems unlikely.

Potash

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I find it interesting because I have lived in the USA and once contemplated emigrating there. I find Americans generally lovely people but, as Potash said, many have a complete blind-spot on guns. I have tried to understand this.

I was shocked by the contrasts and found my prior assumptions really confronted by living in the US. As a well spoken white Englishman I found both LA and small town America a very welcoming place. I really struggled to work out where the unspoken boundaries lay as people seemed too generous. (I had non-white friends who would not drive east of Las Vegas)

I met someone climbing at Indian Creek, and when I said I was off to climb in the Black Canyon he said he had a "granny annex" above his garage not far from the canyon and if I wanted some R&R out of a tent I could come stay. He then told me what dates he was not going to be home.

He then realised I had misunderstood him and clarified, "you are welcome to stay whenever, I'm just letting you know when we wont be about, its never locked. If the wifi is down just go in the house and re-set it."

I chatted later with him about this and he said something along the lines of, we have locally elected law enforcement, we are six hours drive from town, there is 99% gun ownership and private property is private property. It was an interesting perspective and possibly gave me more insight into the origins of rural Americas attachment to guns.

Might we think differently when faced with an, "at best". two hour police response?

jwi

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Bosh. Sweden's Lapland cover about 110,000 km2 and on any given Saturday night there is usually one police car patrolling the area with its 90,000 inhabitants. The average response time is a bit north of six hours.

Johnny Brown

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Quote
It is such a complex and diverse country and population though, pinning down any single factor seems unlikely.

Sure, but their particular obsession with individual freedom might be a place to start.

petejh

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I'm consistently surprised by how much attention is given to the problem of gun violence in America by British news and even in media around the rest of the world. It may sound a bit callous but I see it as an American problem (And it's far from their largest problem) to be solved by Americans. I'm not sure why so many people here are so ready to get involved in this debate as opposed to say the conversation about drug deaths due to fentanyl or horrific gang violence in Mexico or the current sweep of military coups running through Africa.

Do you think it's its just that violent headlines sell? or maybe just that it's the shock value which attracts the audience?

As an example of what I'm talking about the guardian seems to regularly bleat on about American shootings whilst relatively little attention is paid to the problem of violent crime in the UK.

Not much more to add than this ^.  Lived in rural Canada for 4 years, worked in the rural US a bit and travelled lots, met loads of gun-owners but nothing new to me with my background. I was much more scared of being hurt by the US police than the general population. Used to be a gun-owner myself in the UK for vermin shooting.

The US gun death situation could be thought of as a veeeeeery slow-moving civil war or domestic dispute. I don't think its useful at all to try to superimpose European social norms over the US population in an effort to understand them.

spidermonkey09

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In my singular trip to the US I felt considerably safer in rural Kentucky, where there were lots of guns, many visible, than I did in Chicago, even in the posh bit where my hotel and conference was. The people were also way friendlier in Kentucky too.

The US is totally unique and any effort to understand it by comparing it to other countries is never going to work imo. That said, ignoring my own advice just cause its interesting, is there a reason why eg. rural Australia doesn't experience gun violence? 2 hours police response in a lot of outback towns would be rapid.

SA Chris

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None of them live close enough together for bullets to actually hit anyone.

petejh

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Aussies would need artillery to shoot each other!

Moo

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The aussies had a sensible response after port arthur though.

 

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