[irish si]

check this out.  DG complaining about over grading and using our very own dicky simpsons 'a muerta' as an example.

http://climbing.com/exclusive/problog/davegraham/graham7/index2.html

interesting

[jwi]

Perhaps I don't really understand what Mr. Graham writes, English not being my native language and all, but to me the paragraph:

An example is A Muerte. This route would be considered 8c+ on an old-school grade scheme, like Action Directe, and 9a, on a modern scheme.

Seems to say that both A Muerte and Action Directe should be considered 8c+ on the old-school™ grading scheme.

[Jim]

Is it better to shut our mouths and try and not be too much like bitter old men?

It's far too late for that me thinks

[irish si]

he is implying that. I remember that moony argued that action was 8c+ for a long time.  I think it was originally graded this or a slash grade. 

[Stubbs]

An example is A Muerte. This route would be considered 8c+ on an old-school grade scheme, like Action Directe, and 9a, on a modern scheme. It's the truth that looking back, a fundamental interpretation of the German grade 11, gave birth to what we now understand as 9a. 11 literally meant the step above 8c, but this is fuzzy stuff. Ben Moon and Alex Huber know all about this.

German XI seems to fall on the slash grade 8c+/9a
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades.html
So I guess he has a point.

[Buoux 8C]

Action was graded German 11, which equates to 8c+/9A. Ben argued that Hubble was an easy 8c+ and Action was a hard 8c+. Nowadays Hubble is considered a hard 8c+ (i.e. almost over the fence at 9a) and Action is considered a solid 9a.

I think this is what Dave is implying. That the old school grade of Action was 8c+ ish, and that as El Muerte is of similar difficulty (although in my opinion slightly harder) then El Muerte would also be considered 8c+ albeit a hard one in the old school grades.

I believe the new school system is a joke, always have, always will, but have come under regular criticism when saying so. As Dave obviously shares this opinion, it will be interesting to see what comes if it. But before it is also important that Dave climbs some more of the old school routes to verify his opinion (i.e. Evolution, Azincourt, Hubble, Liquid Amber etc)

An example of Old school/ new school.

Azincourt old school 8c- now pushing 8c+
Evolution ditto
Liquid amber, almost certainly 8c+, although old school 8c
Hubble, old school normal 8c+, now pushing hard 8c+/easy 9a
Action, old school hard 8c+, now a benchmark at 9A

[Houdini]

I'll give you a guinea for the lot.

[Paz]

Isn't it easier to -like get with the program- and upgrade the few remaining routes that are sandbag benchmarks of the old school system, or does this involve adding one to Raven Tor/ the whole of the peak?

Anyway with A Muerte it's best not to lose sight of the important thing  - burning the spanish off in spain.

[ian h]

dg mentioned bain de sang given 9a. where would this fall, i am a little lost to what he is talking about but then i do not sport climb

just out of interest really.

[squeek]

I think Bang de Sang is supposed to be a little Swiss for 9a. Whereas I've always thought Action Direct was benchmark 9a, especially as a lot of good climbers have invested some time into it and not done it.

Like I said in the other thread, if a handful of 8c+s (or grade X) are as hard as many at the grade higher then I think it's might be an idea to upgrade the few 'old school' grades than downgrade everything else.  Basically my point was to get balanced grades you should consider upgrading the proposed grade as well as downgrading, which is the only thing Mr Graham seems to be suggesting.

[Bonjoy]

I'm with Squeek, surely the pragmatic thing to do is make any needed adjustment in the direction which involves the least number of routes having the grade changed 

[Ru]

I'm with Squeek, surely the pragmatic thing to do is make any needed adjustment in the direction which involves the least number of routes having the grade changed 

I made this point in the other thread, but seem to have been misunderstood. To regrade the old stuff would mean re-writing most of sportclimbing history, not just swapping the numbers in some books. I think that once you start to do regrade older stuff you could get a ridiculous domino effect that may involve the regrading of entire crags or areas. Also if grade stretch is allowed to continue (ie people give hard routes big grades, no-one down grades) then you would have to re-grade older routes once every 20 years or so. Actually that might not be so bad, I could do some hard-ish routes this year, stop climbing hard sport routes, but still continue to climb harder every 5 years or so as they get upgraded.

[webbo]

Actually that might not be so bad, I could do some hard-ish routes this year, stop climbing hard sport routes, but still continue to climb harder every 5 years or so as they get upgraded.

thats what happens with trad routes.