[Bonjoy]

For what it's worth, I think the combination of V grades and tech grades are the best possible combination for describing the problem, I'm glad you chose them, it makes things clear and obvious what you're getting.

Does it?
Was recently looking at the Rowtor script for BMC guide where you have Yoghurt Hynotist, Bloodfalls, Dissolution, Raw Power, Right arete of Dissolution block the hard way, My Apple, Domes SS and Kim's Prob all at V8! This is covering a big range of difficulty which would be much better represented by 7b and 7b+. The addition of a tech grade adds nothing to the grade as they are all 6c.
 I can understand all the reasons for going with V grade, but they (at least the way they are applied in the UK) are still shit in the V8/9 area.

[Fiend]

V8+?

Also some of those are a bit higher than others right? So in the BMC guide they'd get mentioned as highballs so you'd know they were a bit different in difficulty to others.

[Bonjoy]

The prob being highball has no bearing on the grade given. For example My Apple is hard 7b and would be even if your arse were two inch off the deck. Height isn't and shouldn't be taken into account in bouldering grades.
 Any logical reason to use the bogus V8+ anomally is more convincing as a reason to use font grades. I assumed this point had been done to death repeatedly ages ago.

[SA Chris]

As far as I can remember at the time, most areas were using Vs as the grading system (Panton's bouldering column, Yorkshire, North wales, Northumberland) so it makes sense if everywhere in the country used the same system.

Not to mention Dartmoor and the Stone Country Guide.

Although the recent SMC guides have gone for UK Tech with Font in brackets.

[grimer]

I feel a certain groan when the all-important 'Font Vs V' debate raises it's head again. I always Imagine it seems much more crucial when sat in an office that it does when you actually climb the problems. It's a linear scale.

As for your points about My Apple, etc fair enough. But I have had a look at Ru's book. In there, Weedkiller Traverse and Little Rascal are both 7a+. Little Extra and Satin both 7a. In both of these gradeshere seems to me to be a bit of difference in difficulty, to me anyway. Almost as if using Font grades didn't necessarily mean that discrepincies couldn't still happen.

[Johnny Brown]

Was recently looking at the Rowtor script for BMC guide where you have Yoghurt Hynotist, Bloodfalls, Dissolution, Raw Power, Right arete of Dissolution block the hard way, My Apple, Domes SS and Kim's Prob all at V8!

But this is a script written by someone who admits he isn't an expert at this grade. Such things are easily sorted before print. Personally, I'd push one or two of those up to V9 and a couple down to V7. I'd rather have a reduce the scope of V8 a bit than drop Uk grades, for all the points Grimer and I have already stated.
The reasons why V8 is a 'problem' have been done to death on this forum repeatedly. In such moments of confusion I turn, as ever, to the wise words of big Ron; 'I can't make a proper judgement and I don't think the people who write the guidebooks can either.'

Ru's book. In there, Weedkiller Traverse and Little Rascal are both 7a+.

Ah, the book was almost perfect in its initial conception - grit only, great photos, font grades. Then they stuck limestone in and, to add insult to injury, had all the grades revised by a mutant midget.

[Bonjoy]

Grimer - Ah, but that's because Ru has given them the wrong grades, Weedkiller should be 7b and Little Extra should be 7a+. The Rowtor V8s are graded correctly (at least according to how i'm told V matches Font) and the discrepancy is inherant because we don't understand or apply V grades correctly in the UK. As many people haven't been to the states they only know how hard a V grade is by have a mental comparative table with font grades. All the V grades we come up with are translated through the font grade medium and because they aren't a like for like match the translation seems a bit messy with V8 being enlarged and V9 shrunk. I dare say UK V grades are more different to US V grades than UK font grades are to french font grades.
JB - Those are the grades after my revisions. Which ones would you move up or down? For my money if any were to change they'd be Dissolution, Raw Power and Kim's Prob up to V9 and Bloodfalls down to V7. Which if any would break into English7a?

 The prob with using english tech is that no two people agree what constitutes 7a or above. Surely if something is a one move 8a it must by definition be an English 7b move?

[a dense loner]

you cocks, am climbing v grades in hueco. keep them off grit

[AndiT]

It's nothing to do with the grades, it's the graders.

The fact that all problems are either V8 or fb7b+ is down to the fact that this is a stand point in bouldering. It is a linear scale which becomes miniscule in difference from here on in. Holds being a mm smaller or three inches further apart makes a huge difference, and grades can't account for this.

V grades are better because they go 1, 2, 3 and so on without pluses and minuses, simple. You can have any grading system you want, B grades worked fine, you can invent x grades they will all have the same fundamental problems. The only thing I would argue, is that you are asking for trouble when trying to adopt a grading system which was specifically developed for climbing round sandstone boulders in a forest south of paris, for french people who climb sport routes. You'd be just as well to start your own Peak bouldering grade and forget about everything else then just invent lots of conversion charts for people to grumble over.

We like fb grades because 8a is such a good milestone and if you climb a V11 there is always a chance it would convert to a hard 7c+ whhich nobody wants. Way I look at it, take the 8a, the when you've done lots of them start telling everyone it was only 7c+, because that would then be your right to do so.

Cheers,

Andi

Grimer, it was your round...

[Bonjoy]

The only thing I would argue, is that you are asking for trouble when trying to adopt a grading system which was specifically developed for climbing round sandstone boulders in a forest south of paris, for french people who climb sport routes.

So instead we'll try to use a grade system specifically developed for climbing juggy roofs in the deserts of southern USA, where very few UK guidebook writers have climbed? 

[Paul B]

Anyone ever tried the line to the left? Looked at this the other week and thought it seemed like a vaguely possible sitstart.

yes briefly, it seemed v hard.

[r-man]

Ah, but that's because Ru has given them the wrong grades, Weedkiller should be 7b and Little Extra should be 7a+.

Eh? Always thought Litte extra was one of the softest 7as in the peak. Weedkiller felt reasonable at 7a+. Haven't done Satin, but for my money:

Little Extra - 6c+
Little Rascal - 7a
Weedkiller - 7a+
Bashers Problem - 7z

Re the grade thing? Can't we just make a huge list of all the problems in the world? This can be constantly updated in a thread on ukbouldering. Each problem can have a ranking. That becomes its grade. We can have hours of fun debating whether problems should go up or down, and working out what grade a problem you've never climbed is by asking someone if its harder than a problem they've climbed that you know is certainly harder than a problem someone else has climbed that they say is easier than the one in question. Simple really.

I'll take on the arduous task of compiling the list, but only because I know how much happiness I will bring to Dense's life. I'm a generous soul.

Grading argument over.

Next task, world peace...

[Johnny Brown]

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=248;type=avatar

Oh my God, will you shut up about the crunch?

We are stuck with V grades for this guide series. I'd don't care anymore, its just a row of numbers that look obviously different to Uk tech grades. If you're the kind of person who is bothered, you'll buy Ru's guide.

JB - Those are the grades after my revisions. Which ones would you move up or down? For my money if any were to change they'd be Dissolution, Raw Power and Kim's Prob up to V9 and Bloodfalls down to V7. Which if any would break into English 7a?

Basically, yes, exactly that, (though the guide has confused me over Raw Power). I might give My Apple V7 n'all, is it a full grade harder than tierdrop?

If V8 seems to cover too much, shuffle some up and some down. Neither I nor most of the folk buying this are going to give a rat's ass how the easiest and hardest V8s compare to the ones in Texas.

Dare you open the 7a can o' worms again? I don't remember the one move 8a line last time we discussed it, I'm not bothered as long as a consensus can be reached, however I think it'll be too low a level for most people's test.

[Johnny Brown]

Just to expand on the last point, here is my conversion enjin what I have bin usin for rightin guydes.



I personally find it an elegant solution to this age old attempt to square the circle; it has, to my mind, a simple truth to it.
Grimer I will print you one off to fit across your monitor. In RED.

Minor point - if I was to draw it again the line twixt 5b and 5c would be slightly to the left.

[Sloper]

I don't think font grades have a linear relationship with british technical grades viz la statique and science friction are both 5+ but I think the british technical grade would differ substantially.

I've done the odd font 5+ that felt like british 6a/b and the odd font 6a that feels like british 5b.

Why do people have to try to relate two systems that have no internal 'truth'?  I was happy tho climb Vx in Hueco, By in colorado and Fz in Font.   I never really felt the need to try and work out whether V6 in Hueco was harder than B1+ in Colorado or Font 7a.

[Fiend]

My God, the SCIENCE. That's a feersum enjinn indeed...

[Gus]

It's nothing to do with the grades, it's the graders.

Cheers,

Andi

Grimer, it was your round...

Rounds? Grades? Leek?
It was all we could do to calm the locals down when Dave Garnett pronounced Mow Cop as it's spelt, instead of the "Mao" Cop that we all know it is, he was lucky to get out of there alive!
There were bigger issues to sort out back then, them were the days!

[dave]

Grimer - Ah, but that's because Ru has given them the wrong grades, Weedkiller should be 7b and Little Extra should be 7a+.

nigga you trippin? i agree theres not muich change out of a 7b note for weedkiller, but little extra? maybe its just easier for the tall handsome types with a taste for knitwear.

about the height thing, althought its never written anywhere i always got the impression that font grades in font seemed to take height into account in some way. seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?

[jwi]

about the height thing, although its never written anywhere i always got the impression that font grades in font seemed to take height into account in some way. seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?

For sure. I always thought that might have something to do with the fact that most of the old highballs got their grade by consensus among short people doing them without a crashpad.

It's bound to change though.

[Scouse D]

seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?

I too concur. Highballs are where the easy money is at. I can't actually think of any problems which I've done that back this statement up but I'm sure Dave can.(l'arrache coeur felt well easy for 7c even when it was uber greasy...which is the only reason we didn't do it...Shut up.)

In the peak it is deffo the case, e.g the Alliance, Small is Beautiful, Trellis, Desparete(not topped out but not 7b+),  the highball stuff at Rivelin which is all soft.

[Johnny Brown]

Its a remarkable coincidence I'm sure, but all those problems are easier for the tall, and harder for tiny limestone crimp monkeys.

[Ballsofcottonwool]

To quote from the cosiroc guide, escalade a Blea tome 2

"the same uncertain move will be rated much more severely if it can be attempted dozens of times starting from the ground, than in the case where each failure results in a hazardous fall."

[Bonjoy]

Basically, yes, exactly that, (though the guide has confused me over Raw Power). I might give My Apple V7 n'all, is it a full grade harder than tierdrop?

Hmmm, it certainly felt harder to me (didn't it take you two or three visits to crack?), maybe not a full grade harder than Tierdrop but does it have to be to get V8, Tierdrop being upper middling V7 (top third of 7a+ in Ru's list) so MA only need be a half of a grade harder or more. What do other people reckon V7 or V8?

 Dave - I was shooting from the hip re Little Extra, extemporising wildly on the basis of past experience. I can't remember the last time I did the prob, but it was a long time ago.

 I agree that in practice there is a degree of factoring height into bouldering grades, the question being, is this bad grading or should guide writers continue the tradition? Bouldering grades are supposed to be purely a measure of physical difficulty. Things start to get messy when some people start factoring height in and others don't.

[Johnny Brown]

It doesn't really matter, you will never get a proper consensus on any one problem. The point is to try and get them in roughly the right order and then get that across, if it means some become hard V7s and others soft touch V9s I think its preferable to them all being in an all-encompassing V8.

[Jim]

seems to concur with the highball stuff at font generally having easier moves than the normal stuff. maybe - anyone else noticed this?

I too concur. Highballs are where the easy money is at. I can't actually think of any problems which I've done that back this statement up but I'm sure Dave can.(l'arrache coeur felt well easy for 7c even when it was uber greasy...which is the only reason we didn't do it...Shut up.)

In the peak it is deffo the case, e.g the Alliance, Small is Beautiful, Trellis, Desparete(not topped out but not 7b+),  the highball stuff at Rivelin which is all soft.

I think your wrong there Dave, and If I remember back to the wingspan test we all did in magic wood, I seem to remember you winning by a mile which backs up what johnny is saying