[Dolph]

No it's not changed at all. I've never really questioned the grade, but I suppose it is tough as i'd be tempted to say it feels more difficult than Little pig?

[a dense loner]

I thought it was desparate for 7c then when it went in the guide at 7b+ I thought it was just dupery, rupert on predictive txt, taking the piss! Little pig I think is very fair at 7c. Anyway hadn't you best set off for school it's nearly 9

[Andy B]

I still stand by the fact that a sitting start on the right to the sheep would be harder than 7b+. I've got a bee in my bonnet about this as it was a really nice couple of tension moves. Also I've always interpreted the problems that way. I think in the past I have tried to do a sit on the right and it was awkward bordering on impossible, as the ground drops away. Has anyone actually done this?

So you think starting in the same place and heading right to finish, rather than left, changes it from a 7a to a 7b+? If that's the consensus then i'll gladly take starting on the left as The Sheep Sitter tick. Its just gone from a nemesis to the easiest 7b+ in the Peak.

I did the right sit start in two halves in two ways (if that makes sense?), then kept slipping off the polished foothold and lost the will. Method one: left hand jamming in the base of the crack, right foot on the polished dish with a pebble in it, left foot flagging uselessly under the crack (getting in the way more than anything), right hand on nothing (i think). Pull on and press out the jam to rock over enough to bone the little pocket with your right, then either change feet, or do a really high foot jam and slap with your left to the layaway higher in the crack. From there you're on the stander. Method 2: same start but instead of boning the little pocket go into a backhand sprag in the crack and commence lots of finger shuffling until you can get your left foot up.

[Andy B]

Lee, Talk To Me Martin is a very different problem if you can't reach the high right handhold off the good low left foothold.

[Dolph]

I think your answer here is quite telling Andy. It's clearly not 7b+ from that start. Heading from the left eliminating the arête is clearly a better method. I think your being a bit sore saying it's clearly the easiest 7b+ in the peak. Have you done it this way? It's actually tricky and much harder than Sickle. Either way it is good to get it out there as it either needs a better description and a grade change. Or accepting that there's a better method and get people to climb it and down grade it if consensus dictates. 

Problems like TTNM are always going to be easier if your tall, that's life

[Fiend]

I'm far more concerned about the use of an illicit foothold on the Yellow And Black board problem 

Sit starting the sickle / sheep crack on the right-hand side does look spectacularly shit for the reasons given. Kudos for NOT doing that.

[Andy B]

I think your being a bit sore saying it's clearly the easiest 7b+ in the peak. Have you done it this way?

Yes.
I find finishing right easier than grovelling up left.

The right hand start isn't shit IMO, just harder. Just cos something is hard for the grade, I don't reckon it makes sense to change the problem to fit the grade. I like having a few sandbags out there still. I've been there with various folk, who all thought Sheep Sitter started on the right.

Given that the standers only have a plus grade between them, if they shared the same sit it seams strange that the grade difference then jumps to 3 grades?

No soreness on my part. As I said, Ive only done it your way, and finishing left. I haven't linked it the way I think it goes.

[dave]

I know it's a poor sloper I thought it might have got bigger since you pissed it! I know it gets 7b+ but it's absolutely desparate!

That LH hold on TTMM has a very slight divot on it, which for mere mortals makes it holdable in good nick to have a slap up with the right hand. I could never get the distance though so ended up doing the problem by going up to one of the fingertip slopers with LH, moving left foot into the higher pocket and then pulling through for the top jug with RH. Nasty problem.

[Dolph]

Isn't climbing great, how people find it different.  In my mind there is no difference really in the starts, the only rule that makes sense sinister arête. Although i suppose it depends on how it was done on the first ascent. I'd be up for a better description if it's needed.

For a climber of my height no way is heading right into the sloper easier than going up via the arête. Heading right is an enjoyable,awkward, reachy press move for me,off a polished foothold smear. I'm impressed that you find this way so easy, especially being short. The arête is a basic layback and stand up, much easier in my world.

As for sandbags I am against it. Grade should be an accurate reflection of the difficulty to be encountered. This can and will be one grads outright way for lots of reasons, but still should try to convey the expected difficulty. Wrong excessive sandbag grades just lead to problems getting getting ignored, or worse shrouded in mystery. Especially when people make assumptions about how they must have been done. That is another debate entirely though.

Obviously we're not going to agree on this as our experiences are clearly different. Good luck on your version, it's still a challenge for you even if people like me chose to interpret the climb a different way. That's the Joy of climbing.

[Andy B]

I'm above average height, I'll have you know!
I just look small from up there.

I'm surprised that someone who's done as much as you still thinks that grades can be accurate.

[rodma]

I think we went through this a while ago, and what I put on peakbouldering seemed to be the conclusion:

Boston Mess Original 7C+
Rules: Start from a low undercut (not quite a sitstart), pull on, go left to furthest left undercut, right hand to middle undercut (crux), then use other holds to gain the ledge above. (What Mike did)

Boston Mess Sidepulls 7A+
Pull on to the left-hand undercuts and climb to the ledge.

Boston Mess Standing Start 6C

Boston Mess Jump 7B
Pull on to the low undercuts and jump to the ledge.

Presumably the jump goes to the lower right ledge?

Awesome. that's a cheeky wee historical tick I hadn't realised I had done :-)

YYFY

[Dolph]

I'm above average height, I'll have you know!
I just look small from up there.

Brilliant!! Although I don't think I'm that tall. I only look tall from down there. 

I'm surprised that someone who's done as much as you still thinks that grades can be accurate.

I'm not that naive, but they should be fairly accurate with relation to one another in an area with consensus. It's the only system we've got so we should all at least attempt to make it work as best we can (Suddenly i'm an optimist!).

[Boredboy]

I think your being a bit sore saying it's clearly the easiest 7b+ in the peak. Have you done it this way?

Yes.
I find finishing right easier than grovelling up left.

The right hand start isn't shit IMO, just harder. Just cos something is hard for the grade, I don't reckon it makes sense to change the problem to fit the grade. I like having a few sandbags out there still. I've been there with various folk, who all thought Sheep Sitter started on the right.

Given that the standers only have a plus grade between them, if they shared the same sit it seams strange that the grade difference then jumps to 3 grades?

No soreness on my part. As I said, Ive only done it your way, and finishing left. I haven't linked it the way I think it goes.

I always thought sheep ss started on the right as it would naturally climb into the stand up to the original? The other way would be sickle ss eliminating the arête and finishing up the sheep, or something like that    and the sheep is a sandbag anyway.

[Dolph]

In my mind that's just madness. You would start with both hands in the crack anyway, which ever way you face. If I was to start like that there is no way I would use that pocket, I would keep both hands in the crack.

Probably best to move on from this now as one thing that is clear, is that this is a log problem!

[Boredboy]

Fair enough, it probably just doesn't climb as I'd imagine, I don't think it's a log problem, the sheep was one of my favourite boulders about 20 yrs ago and I've enjoyed thinking about how it climbs from a sitter. Probably trying to avoid moving on! I do agree TTMM isn't height dependent though, crimpy 7b+ if done the usual way, never seen it done with that jump 

[Dolph]

I hate it when gritstone climbs get over complicated with rules, hence now in my mind it being somewhat lessened. It's a different matter with the lime. I'm done with discussing this now. If people want to call the climb I did something else then fine. It's no where near the best 7b I've ever done. I don't care as much as my constant posting might suggest.

I don't think anyone said TTMM is reachy. I just said it is perhaps easier if your taller. As I said I normally climb this as Dave describes, but on this day in the heat I couldn't hold the higher left hand sloper, so I just jumped it. I actually really like this problem.

[Sasquatch]

A few of the problems from my recent trip to Squamish.

[Duma]

Not available on mobiles :-(

[Sasquatch]

Sorry.  I think its to do with the music.... 

[Duma]

Yeah, all the more reason for vimeo. Ironically have just watched it at work with no sound...

Looking strong, sounds like a good few days!

[Sasquatch]

Thanks!  Mainly one good climbing day, although the festival and biking made for incredible days.  The first couple of days were around 27C, then it got hot and was above 30C for the last 3, with only a bit of a breeze.  Not ideal for climbing.  The day in the vid was 27 but had a pretty good breeze. 

[mark20]

James Thornton mid summer hard gritting ! 

[tomtom]

Good victory bellow

[benno]

That is ace.

[monkey boy]