[abarro81]

You should read Dave's post more carefully - he's saying you could flash the v12, then sit down and do the v13 sitter without having worked any moves and he'd give you the flash. If you work anything then its obviously not even a grey area, it's just cheating.
Interestingly, or not, Ondra used to log these 'grey area onsights/flashes' of, say, routes with shared sections as onsight/flash, until he started getting famous, then switched to logging them as redpoints. It doesn't really matter so long as you make it clear what the score is with what you did. Again, clearly falling off or sitting on a bolt blows any and all routes that go through that section, even in the most dubious books.

[Sasquatch]

I read it, and my response was not in quite the same vein, but it is the way the world will go, which is why I still disagree.  You have flashed every move, but not in one continuous go, so therefore to me you didn't flash the v13. 

What about problems that have 3 or 4 different starts?  Can you continually flash your way down the problem? 

What about problems that combine a traverse with a straight up?  Can you flash the traverse, flash the straight up and then flash the link up? 

This is why I don't think there should be a grey area.  Maybe I'm being obstinate, but if that's the way we're going, I really see a problem with it, and the term Flash will start to lose all meaning unless you know the details of each ascent personally.   

Also, this has gone far enough it's probably worth splitting the thread. 

[Fiend]

It should be a sticky really, along with the "first redpoint" and "in a day" debates.

Retroflashing is real, but you have to be utterly strict with yourself about it.

[iwasmexican]

is it not as simple as "as soon as you leave the ground/ un-weight the rope on any part of a problem/ route, stand, link-up sit start etc... , no matter how trivial, that is your flash go until you fall or reach the top" and this is the only one you get for any route/ problem that uses that section of rock?

[Duma]

Yes it is. Some folk seem not to realize this though.

[dave]

So then, someone does High Flyer E4 at stanage end first go - does that then invalidate their subsequent flash of Low Rider?

Or, someone flashed Ron Side Story and jumped off at the break - does this then mean they can't flash WSS?

[slackline]

So then, someone does High Flyer E4 at stanage end first go - does that then invalidate their subsequent flash of Low Rider?

Or, someone flashed Ron Side Story and jumped off at the break - does this then mean they can't flash WSS?

Remember that you're climbing a bit of rock, and if you onsight 9b, you've still only climbed a bit of rock.

[Stubbs]

Does Low Rider finish up the first couple of moves of High Flyer? If so yes to both.

[dave]

No it finishes on a jug that high flyer climbs across.

[Sasquatch]

I'm pretty sure I've made my Flash definition very clear.  If you climb someplace with a ton of linkups, variations,  eliminates, then you're going to struggle to "flash" anything by my definition, but that's the way it goes. 

I don't know the routes in Question Dave, so I can't speak to them.  My personal stance is simple. 

[andy_e]

Most problems start off the ground, but I've been walking around on the ground for a number of years now. Does this mean I've blown the flash on everything? 

[a dense loner]

No, nor does it mean you're in any way funny

[Sasquatch]

Most problems start off the ground, but I've been walking around on the ground for a number of years now. Does this mean I've blown the flash on everything? 

yes.   

[monkey boy]

You'd think it was clear. I had to call monkey boy and woz out for it years ago, he still hates me for it

I am sure it was my hilarious idea of an onsight that you called me out for not a flash 

[Moo]

Just to clear things up, Sasquatch is correct.

[mrjonathanr]

Retroflashing is real, but you have to be utterly strict with yourself about it.

Sure you do.

[panhead]

No.  A flash is doing it first attempt having not done any of the moves before hand, nor pulled off the ground on any of the holds.

I agree with this strict definition; aren't we talking about beta-flashes in essence?

[Sasquatch]

No.  A flash is doing it first attempt having not done any of the moves before hand, nor pulled off the ground on any of the holds.

I agree with this strict definition; aren't we talking about beta-flashes in essence?

nah.

Never said you couldn't touch holds on inspect, just not pull off ground. 

[Jaspersharpe]

Just to clear things up, Sasquatch is correct.

 

[Fiend]

Never said you couldn't touch holds on inspect, just not pull off ground.

Are you allowed to take any weight off the ground? Is it like snooker where as long as one toe is touching the ground, it's valid?

[Fiend]

P.S. As regards the strict definitions, there is a danger of it becoming all a bit UKC "If I downclimb to the ground is it still an onsight? No? Oh, okay, what if I downclimb to a ledge that's 6 inches above the ground, is that okay? What if I get my partner to pass me a different pair of shoes and change them on the ledge? Do I still get the grade?" - yes there are some strict definitions but they are not always sensible nor useful, there are always grey areas. What if you do a V0 and then "flash" the V12 sitter to it? Does prior knowledge of the V0 make any difference? Does it provide any useful information to the V12 flasher? If not, where do you change the boundary? V2 then V10 sitter? V4 then V8? Grey areas. I always say it's about the spirit of the law not the letter of the law....and give respect and credit to anyone trying to do things in a good/better style.

[Stubbs]

I think it's a very simple but harsh line, in your example if you want to flash the 8a+ you shouldn't climb the stand first.

[r-man]

"If I downclimb to the ground is it still an onsight?

Yes.

[Doylo]

Keep it strict avoids grey areas. Was a bit bemused when James P claimed to flash Point Blank when he'd done the first half of the route before. It's harsh but that's the way it is.

[Fiend]

I was a bit impressed that James flashed / claimed to flash / whatfuckingever Point Blank, regardless of him doing an easier section as part of another route, because it shows a laudable attempt to improve ethics (in an area when people are still dicking around not even trying to flash much easier routes).

Anyway would love to continue this discussion but I'm off to buy a bulk lot of Tippex and wreck my climbing logbooks. The Swan? Nope already did the start as part of Pebbledash. Appaloosa Sunset? Nope already did the start as part of Rubberneck. The Sloth? Nope already did Pedestal Route. Flash of The Crack Direct at Bowderstone? Nope already did The Crack and it shares the same finishing holds and I got the game-changing knowledge that the big fucking slanting crack at the top you can see is a big fucking slanting crack from the ground is indeed a big fucking slanting crack....actually it was years inbetween my ascents and I could remember precisely fuck all about The Crack apart from cutting loose on a fist jam nowhere near the shared finish, but well we're being STRICT here....