[Fultonius]

JB seems to be pretty much the sole advocate for E4 making any sense with the tech grade of 7a....does anyone else agree with him?

[Fultonius]

How would the following "hypothetical" routes ge graded:

Font6B into existing top of WSS
Font6C into existing top of WSS
Font7A into existing top of WSS
Font7B into existing top of WSS

?

[northern yob]

JB seems to be pretty much the sole advocate for E4 making any sense with the tech grade of 7a....does anyone else agree with him?

He’s not actually doing that…. He was explaining why historically it got that, and the reasons behind that…. Maybe you’ll just have to let it go! I’m sure there will be other E4’s out there you can’t do…. It doesnt mean they aren’t E4…. Although they might not be..🤣I love grades it’s like politics there’s no right or wrong just different opinions.

[andy moles]

I love grades it’s like politics there’s no right or wrong just different opinions.

In which case perhaps E4 for WSS is something akin to Liz Truss's economic policy - not right or wrong, just...a different opinion.

[northern yob]

Exactly although with regards liz truss’s economic policy  I might be a little more like fultonius….. incredulous at the idea anyone could truly believe that it might be a good idea…

[Johnny Brown]

Font6B into existing top of WSS: E3 6a
Font6C into existing top of WSS: E3 6b
Font7A into existing top of WSS: E3 6b/c
Font7B into existing top of WSS: E4 6c


It really is that simple.

[ferret]

It really is that simple.

No it really isnt.
If the E Grade is supposed to communicate the overall difficulty by an amalgamation of physical/technical difficulty and the danger and the Technical Grade communicates the difficulty of the single hardest move then your example grades make no sense

[Nemo]

A tech grade of 7a is entirely and completely meaningless, so I have the same problem with something being graded E4 7a as I do with  something being graded E4 Jellyfish.

But I can't be bothered engaging much with the UK tech grade argument, because it's a debate that for the vast majority of people, was over 2 decades ago.
The reality is, whether some people like it or not, that UK tech grades over 6b are of zero use.

Why?
Because almost everyone climbing at that level (including hard trad specialists) climbs vastly more volume of boulders and sport routes of those physical difficulties than they do trad routes.  ie: even for the very top trad climbers, they climb more volume of Fr8b's and Font 8A's on boulders and sport routes than they climb Fr8b's and Font 8A's on trad routes.

And so even hard trad specialists compare physical difficulty with font or french grades.  People can complain about that all they like, and talk with some kind of confused romantic nostalgia about UK tech grades as seems to have happened on here recently.

The reality isn't going to change.  UK tech grades for hard routes died a long time ago and they aren't coming back.

The only remaining debate is where to switch over.  Personally if writing a guide I'd switch at E6, although perhaps at E5 for somewhere like Pembroke. I think Duncan on here recently suggested switching at lower grades.  Personally I wouldn't bother as I don't think Fr grades are as useful at lower grades, but ultimately the where is down to individual guidebook writers.

As for the E side of it:

"Font6B into existing top of WSS
Font6C into existing top of WSS
Font7A into existing top of WSS
Font7B into existing top of WSS"

And to continue:
Font8B into existing top of WSS
Font8B+ into existing top of WSS
Font8C into existing top of WSS
Fr9b into existing top of WSS
Fr9b+ into existing top of WSS
Fr9c into existing top of WSS

All of which (since he clearly isn't paying much mind to the physical difficulty of the start in the E grade) in JB's wonderful world would presumably get something between E3 and E5.   

OK, obviously I'm somewhat taking the piss.
But truth is, the only way what JB is saying actually hangs together is if you take the two halfs of WSS completely separately and pretend there was a ledge in the middle.  So you have a Font 7B+ pitch and then an E4 pitch.
I assume that conceptually at least, that's what he's talking about.

Which I suppose you could just about persuade yourself of in the specific case of WSS, but that kind of split doesn't apply to the vast majority of highballs at all, so it's a grading system that applies to one route.  Not terribly helpful.

[Will Hunt]

This discussion belong on UKC.

LOCK N' LOG. And let us never speak of this again.

[Somebody's Fool]

Isn’t there an element to this of preserving something local and interesting by applying a British grade to a grit highball?

I mean you could argue the average Frenchman’s car is much better now it’s a VW or an Audi. But wasn’t France much more interesting when everyone was going round in their Renault 4s?

I don’t think making everything the same the world over necessarily enhances our experience of it.

[andy moles]

something being graded E4 Jellyfish.

Sounds about right for some routes on the Orme.

[cheque]

Worth keeping in mind that the last guidebook to list WSS with only a trad grade was published in 1991. There’s only ever been one guide that mentions E4 in its description of it since the adoption of bouldering grades and that came out 19 years ago.

[Fultonius]

Font6B into existing top of WSS: E3 6a
Font6C into existing top of WSS: E3 6b
Font7A into existing top of WSS: E3 6b/c
Font7B into existing top of WSS: E4 6c


It really is that simple.

Case dismissed, your honour....

[Johnny Brown]

A tech grade of 7a is entirely and completely meaningless, so I have the same problem with something being graded E4 7a as I do with  something being graded E4 Jellyfish.

 

This has made my day.

Otherwise, the thing to remember with trad grades for micro-routes/ highballs, is that BOULDER PROBLEMS DON’T GET E GRADES. So if the main difficulty on a micro route is a boulder problem, it has very little bearing on the overall grade. Reasons to put WSS up to E5 would not so much bear on the boulder problem, it would be if there was no jugs, no rest, no easy opportunity to traverse off, or more likely a worse landing. Look at The Art of White Hat Wearing for example, which is shorter than WSS and slightly easier, but got E5 because the landing is worse. And if you think I’m mental, remember when the landing was improved, some people lamented the loss of a once proud E5!

[Fultonius]

7B+/E4 5c (or whatever the fucking top half of fucking WSS is as I have no fucking idea...) would convey things much better for the soloist.

However, I'd maybe argue by the sounds of things, that the top alone is maybe only E3? So F7B+/E35c?

Can someone now please go out and find a new boulder/micro route and call it:

Weathering the Bell Curve? And grade it E4 Jellyfish? 

[Johnny Brown]

As I said earlier, it feels 6a. If it was really easy to climb up the bottom, and there was a better rest, but without impacting the landing, I could see it being E2. If you traversed in from the left for example, which is about 5b, I think you’d be into borderline E2. So you do get something for the start being 7a.

[Johnny Brown]

But truth is, the only way what JB is saying actually hangs together is if you take the two halfs of WSS completely separately and pretend there was a ledge in the middle.  So you have a Font 7B+ pitch and then an E4 pitch.
I assume that conceptually at least, that's what he's talking about.

Presumably you’ve already worked out that, no, that’s not what I mean. Obviously a ledge in the middle would make it easier!

The reason we don’t use these grades any more is because a) font grades offer finer gradations and, b) people pad them out. But if you look through the old guides to Burbage and Caley etc, they make perfect sense to me.

[Fiend]

7B+/E4 5c (or whatever the fucking top half of fucking WSS is as I have no fucking idea...)

That's quite cantankerous for someone who started a thread specifically to prove himself wrong about WSS 

[abarro81]

On th other thread I thought I understood JB's grading system for micro routes, where E4 7a was 7a then E4... But now it turns out it's 7a then E2, and the E grade does include the difficulty of the start but but only to some unquantifiable extent. So E grades are overall, but only kind of overall. Maybe like a set of overalls but 3/4 length in the trousers. I get it. Until the next thread where It turns out I don't. Maybe after 40 years climbing it will all make sense?

[stone]

This is totally the type of climbing I steer clear of but I think I understand the "how hard is the scary bit" E-grade logic.

The bottom of WSS only feeds into the E grade in that it is harder to do the serious second half climbing after being powered out by having just bouldered 7B+.

So if someone climbs 7B+ fine but doesn't climb bold E4, they know to steer clear. If there was an amazing resting position such that the top only felt E2, they might give it a go.

What really didn't make sense was when bouldery bolted sport routes in the UK got E grades that bizarrely just followed a physical difficulty logic -simultaneously with us having unbolted routes that didn't. So you got an E6 tick for Entrée    -But no one gives sport routes E grades anymore.

[Moo]

This is everything UKB should be.

[mrjonathanr]

Exactly although with regards liz truss’s economic policy  I might be a little more like fultonius….. incredulous at the idea anyone could truly believe that it might be a good idea…

People with income north of £300k probably thought abolishing the 45p rate was a great idea.

[stone]

Exactly although with regards liz truss’s economic policy  I might be a little more like fultonius….. incredulous at the idea anyone could truly believe that it might be a good idea…

People with income north of £300k probably thought abolishing the 45p rate was a great idea.

I'd entertain the possibility that Truss herself genuinely believes that throwing money at the richest people is the best way to help society.
I think she is a believer in this sort of stuff: https://www.econlib.org/archives/2013/03/redistributing.html

PS I think it is moronic garbage myself

[mrjonathanr]

What really didn't make sense was when bouldery bolted sport routes in the UK got E grades that bizarrely just followed a physical difficulty logic -simultaneously with us having unbolted routes that didn't. So you got an E6 tick for Entrée    -But no one gives sport routes E grades anymore.

I get your point about bouldery grades, but the compression of technical grades did not help. IIRC didn't Ron give Strawberries E5 7a in 1980? And Ben gave Statement E7 6b in 1984?

I spoke to Jerry the day he did the 2nd ascent of Statement and he confirmed E7. Rain Dogs was also uncontentious at E7 in 86- so the debate over E vs technical grade was there from the start and the E-for-effort approach was adopted initially. It’s the popularity of Buoux that changed everyone’s perspective on that I suspect.