[Andy F]

Scarpa SL's. I think the sreen (stiff) version was the SL1, the yellow (soft) version the SL2.

[luckyjez]

the SL2.

that's right - 'on a ragga tip' no less 

[monkey boy]

I am bringing this subject back to life as i need more help. Have been doing other bits of my dissertation and so have neglected my history into shoes.

I am up to the mid 80's and really want to know about the ground breaking ideas up to present day. When did the first slipper come out, which company started to design boots for heel hooking etc.
Again any pictures would be brilliant and as much info ass possible.

Cheers

[SA Chris]

Boreal was the company of the 80s.

Everyone owned Fires.

Then Everyone owned Lasers

Then everyone got Vectors, except the ones with the crap rubber.

Bambas were rubbish.

I think Ninjas were the first slippers.

[monkey boy]

Just a quick question. Did the company who made Fires in the 80's, Berol then go on to become Boreal? Or are they both different companies?

Thanks

[SA Chris]

As far as I know, it was always Boreal that made the Fires (pronounced Fee-ray, with a little dash above the e).

Definitely had the little spiral with deer in the middle logo.

I could find you a pair if you want. Good money.

[monkey boy]

Cheers, they must of changed their name cause i have read in books that berol made the fires. Oh well hopefully the marker wont know and it will all be fine.

Thanks for the offer of the boots but have enough for testing already.
Cheers

[AndiT]

I moved house on Thursday and threw out my old Fires, Lasers, Vectors and Bambas, I hope they weren't worth anything   If you watch Stone Monkey he has the blue Fire type boots on, can't remember their names though, but it definitely looks like he's worn his heel out on them, that's gotta be hard work!

What I did notice was that Fires wore out properly, i.e. gradually unlike modern shoes which one day are fine, the next day the rubber starts to feel a bit crap and soft and then your toe rips through and the boot is instantly useless!

I also had some 5.10 Vertick and some purple and blue 5.10's too, can't remember the name though- lynx's perhaps....

[Andy B]

If you watch Stone Monkey he has the blue Fire type boots on, can't remember their names though, but it definitely looks like he's worn his heel out on them, that's gotta be hard work!

Were these called Ballets?

[AndiT]

Yeah, think that's right..

[Andy B]

Monkey Boy-
A potential point in the more recent history of climbing shoes, could be the development of radically bent last, toe down style shoes, a version of which is now made by most manufacturers (were stingers first), but is really only used for certain types of route/ problem (eg. steep with footholds which are hooked rather than smearing). This raises issues of developing boots for ever more specific moves.
Just an idea.

[fatdoc]

OK,

you said you wanted more info!

the blue ones were ballet 2s...

the ballet 1s were just clumpy fires.

the first slipper was the blue ninja. released in mainland europe june 1987... near no stiffner in the sole ( unlike the green, and the red it made to this day- kids sizes) - i got some from germany... 1st ones in the UK arrived a few months later.... first advert was bachar toeing into some pockets with the speech "the ninja's gonna make some climbs a lot easier!"

the rockmasters from scarpa... with the insole ripped out... were the true dogs. very heavy marketing campaign with pollitt, gore and atkinson to try to oust the other sheffield boot sponsored heros of moffatt and moon. as now scarpa made quality shoes... that you can climb in... not pieces of shite uppers moulded onto *this year's* rubber..

megas arrived before asolos... initally the Glowvaz (sp) signature shoe... were utterlly shite IMO expt for the rather trendy slate at the time - totally stiff!!, yet poor ankle suport, weird... i had at least 2 pairs.

it was the buoux easter pilgrimage the nxt year that saw the rise of the asolo runnout (the green one).... all these foreigners were prancing about in them..... for the UK leech and then i think tony mitchell being the sponsored boys at some point in the shoe's all too short career.


god knows when 5.10 then arrived.... looked crap compared to european styling.... remember jason muttering a lot about rubber.... and *memory... very sticky... shoes dont crimple you with the stretching in period... last ages...*  

10 yrs on the anastazi lace has it's just has it's first full on upgrade, even then the new greens have the same profile and near as last... the all important toe shape is left unchanged.... thank God. heel may even work now... which would be nice.

red chilli entered the arena at the zenith of the 5.10 monopoly. They got Outside onside, nicked moon off boreal & i think glowvaz has a share in the business. as this time boreal rubber quality was open to debate... certainly was very variable. Competitive prices saw red chilli succeed.


But, despite the fickel nature of rock boot purchases by me over a 28 yr period... what i want to know is: is 5.10 still the best toe and the best rubber?? if so, they will by default be the market leader. it's a niche market that people will buy what works best, within reason price is not an issue. dont get me wrong - i do and will own other boots than 5.10, by some perverse logic that i cant understand... but for nigh on a decade 5.10 have been at the top. If the supply issues are now sorted they will reign for a good while i suggest.

is that the kind of info you wanted??

[monkey boy]

That little summation sounds awesome, actually probably a little too detailed for me but bits will be used thanks. I have just finished the history bit, or the first draft anyway. Done through from the EB's to Fires and other boreals and onto the monopoly of the market by five ten.

I just wanted a rough over view for the reader.
Andy B- I am putting in all about the down turned revolution in another part and the fact that most companies now make  pretty similar shoes in the technology states. Doing my rubber friction testing on Thursday so will let people now how different boots fair.

Thanks for all the help guys 

[SA Chris]

If you watch Stone Monkey he has the blue Fire type boots on, can't remember their names though, but it definitely looks like he's worn his heel out on them, that's gotta be hard work!

Were these called Ballets?

Yup, point came up recently in Old Skool thread. the shoe version was the "Jazz".

Monkey boy, I think fatdoc needs wadding for that essay.

[moose]

Where do Sportiva fit in the boreal -> 5.10 -> Red Chilli progression?  Haven't they ever been major players / innovators?  I was under the impression that the Testarossa and Mirage were fairly "important" shoes.  You also see a surprising number of climbers wearing incredibly ancient looking pairs of those orange slippers (cobras?) and their comfy all day trad shoes (especially the ankle high ones) so presumably they filled a niche at some time? 

I guess rock type has an important part to play in all this too.  Maybe any low public consciousness / uptake of a particular brand in the UK is due to a low suitability for grit?  I suppose re Sportiva  a lot of their best shoes are quite stiff and edgy - leading to then being more prevalent in the US - in virtually every US mag photo I see of people in Yosemite etc people seem to be wearing Miuras / Katanas.

[Ru]

The important Sportivas were the Kendos (blue/yellow/pink) and the ones before them that were made of black leather and not suede. Most of the top Euros that weren't in Boreals seemed to have these.

[Stubbs]

The Sportiva Mythos seems to be the Yosemite shoe, and i think it was the most popular shoe in the states for some time. I think they're good for cracks as they have a low toe profile.  It was odd in Yosemite that about 80% of people were wearing sportiva, and they were substantially cheaper than 5.10, even though5.10 are made just down the road.

[Somebody's Fool]

The first down pointing toe shoe was the Mirage by La Sportiva was it not?  Ideal for End of the Affair if I remember correctly.  As was a vest.

[SA Chris]

The important Sportivas were the Kendos (blue/yellow/pink) and the ones before them that were made of black leather and not suede. Most of the top Euros that weren't in Boreals seemed to have these.

Wasn't the Black one the Sportiva Tao? First fully synthetic shoe (ie no cow bits?).

[monkey boy]

Didnt no how to do waddage, but think i just did it! Cheers Fat doc

[moose]

The first down pointing toe shoe was the Mirage by La Sportiva was it not?  Ideal for End of the Affair if I remember correctly.  As was a vest.

Cheers, I was sure sportiva were responible for something significant.  I think their target markets must generally require edgy / pocket-loving shoes - leading to more of a presense on Yosemite micro-edging stuff and euro limestone than in the UK.  Although I vaguely recall someone saying that when Miuras arrived they instantly made slate routes a grade or two easier, and I always see more pairs when I venture away from grit and into the Lakes etc basicially anywhere less "smeary". 

[fatdoc]

*blushes* at waddage... ta.

right, more old git ramblings -i'm enjoying this-

tao were indeed the synthetic slightly down turned -no stretch ever- black sportivas. they bagged a bit though, the total lack of breathablity caused a few comments by the catwalk posse back in the day - i never had a pair but my mates had them. they rotted... nice.

i agree that the popularity, or that percieved on this thread, of sportiva may well be biased by how good a boot is on grit.

kendos were made cool by gresham, malcolm and stuart being given them to wear in comps, on guidebook covers etc.. i wore them a fair bit on yorks lime, had to be awful tight to work, as little support and a box toe. they worked though.


it was megas that made slate easy (er)....

something else has come to mind here....

i boulder... near solely in the peak at the mo... i see the same faces both out and indoors.. the 5.10 ( with a splash of red chilli admittedly) dominance is indeed true in my eyes. But as > 90% of the UK climbing public do more *normal* climbing I reckon you should get down to pembroke / over to tremadog and idwal to see what really sells to the masses. I doubt it's V10s....


BTW, i'm gagging for the results of yr friction test..

esp as I have just gone retro on 5.10 velcros (blue ones cos they fit me better than the *male* version) - stealth C4 not the nu stuff.. ? called onyx is alledgely 16% stickyer but harder and takes more to bed in...

 i'm seriously considering new scarpa velcros - with their funky inturns and downward pointy wierdness - over new green lace ups for the summer..... rubber comparision would be v interestin.. you could get a sample of the nu scarpa range from the works (probably)

[moose]

i'm seriously considering new scarpa velcros - with their funky inturns and downward pointy wierdness - over new green lace ups for the summer..... rubber comparision would be v interestin.. you could get a sample of the nu scarpa range from the works (probably)

I have noticed that Scarpa Vision velcros have a pronounced presence amongst the hard-bouldering folk at the Sunderland Wall... although this could be some sort of Andy Earl freebie factor rather than any superiority for Northumbrian rock. 

Currently wearing in a pair of Onyx soled Anasazi velcros (not worn 5.10s before) that are quite nice but I haven't noticed any spectacular frictiony miracles and I still find myself reaching for my Sportiva Venoms when the going gets tough (admittedly more of a "fit" thing than rubber).  I seem to remember someone (Ru?) going to quite some lengths to compare Onyx with stealth when the Gallileo's first came out - a search the forum should turn it up. 

On another incredibly nerdy shoe point, I notice in their catalogue that Sportiva Venoms seemingly alone in their range use something called XSGrip rubber rather than the XSV that's on all of their other shoes (including their other "performance slipper" the Viper).  Just seems a bit strange - I wonder whether it's an "experimental" compound that they plan to extend across the range if sucessful - like 5.10 have done with Onyx: first on trial on the gallileo, then when they were were sure it didn't cause peoples feet to set on fire / farm animals to be still-born, extended to the Anasazi velcro...

[Will Hunt]

when hobnails were invented

The earliest reference to hobnails that Ive ever seen is on the first recorded ascent of Cloggy. Look at the wikipedia entry for cloggy and youll find a reference from 1798 where one of the ascencionists wore hobnails.

[SA Chris]

When did they start wearing Hobnobs?

As a continuation of the Boreal story, I reckon that the crap rubber on a lot of the Vectors, and then the release of the Bamba (generally agreed to not be great) killed their market dominance and tarnished their reputation. Before that the Fire, the Ballet, the Ace (debatable), the Ninja and the Laser were probably the most popular rock shoes by miles.

Just a theory mind.