[nik at work]

After a spot of help from the camper expert massive.

I'm after a camper that I will keep on the mainland while living on the Isle of Man. I'm going to be back in the UK every month or so for a week or so and will be living in the van for some/all of these UK based weeks. I will also be using the van as a "car" when we come over as a family so it needs 4 seats with belts. We may well use it to "camp" in as a family from time to time but this will only be if the weather's good and so can have a tent so no need for the van to be up to housing a full family for several days in poor weather.

Current thinking is something like a VW transporter as that seems to be the default option. Don't know whether to get something converted or semi converted, seem to get a fair but more for your buck on the semi-converted front. I probably can't go down the get-a-van-and-diy route as I'll need it to be rough campable in straight off so as a minimum I'll want it carpeted/floored or such-like. Also not committed to a transporter or VW (I'm not one of the fanboi's) so if there are good alternatives I'm open to suggestion, but I think that's going to be the right sort of size.

Also does anyone have any knowledge on insuring a vehicle that won't be stored at your home address? I'll probably rent a garage for storage.

I'm handy and well tooled up so have no problem with fitting/fixing stuff. However I don't really have any camper knowledge, so hints and tips would be good.

Budget is probably going to be around the £6-7k mark, and I'll be looking to buy in about four weeks.

Any recommendations/things to look out for/random interesting facts?

I know this whole thread is basically the answer to my questions, but if anyone has any quick points to make with regard to the use I'm going to be putting the van to that would be helpful.

[account_inactive]

Mines for sale......

[nik at work]

Details? Hang on is this the one you were living in when you were "shitting through the eye of a needle" when we met in Spain?? Suddenly less enthusiatic...

Seriously, have you got it listed anywhere? How much? Etc... (PM me if you'd rather)

[andyd]

Mines for sale......

I think this is fairly illegal.

[SA Chris]

Seeing's no-one else has replied...

If you are just needing somewhere to doss down, it might be better looking at a people carrier with a few removable seats? When you are travelling on your own take a seat or two our and when you want to kip down, just roll out a sleeping mat and sleeping bag, job done.

Otherwise; if you are carrying 2 kids you will need a fold down bed with at least a steel frame, and preferrably crash tested (ie not a wooden "rock and roller" type, which won't stand up to an accident). Steel frames are quite expensive, crash tested ones (like RIB beds) even more so; 2K or thereabouts, which will take a big chunk out of your budget, and are very rarely found second hand. With 2 kids riding 3 in the front (which you can do in most panel vans) is no longer an option.

For the money you have will probably be looking at an older high mileage ready converted camper, something like a T4 or maybe a Mazda Bongo? Given your recent luck with cars, you will hopefully get a good runner this time!

[tomtom]

or a big old volvo estate...?

[SA Chris]

That was my old option. With back seats folded down it had enough room for my 6ft 2 frame, so for the diminutive it would be positively spacious.

[Duma]

Nik:

wouldn't fancy the big estate option myself if it was to be home for one week a month, but if you do it'd be by far the cheapest option.

As others have said, seating 4 is the big stumbling block - crash tested rock and rollers are ££.
Transporters are probably expensive for what they are due to the fanboy demand, but on the other hand do have pretty much everything available in terms of self or paid for conversions. A cheaper (less "cool") base vehicle of similar size might be something like a Vauxhall Vivaro - a mate has one of these that he's converted and it seems a good alternative. Something like my van might be usable for what you describe - It's an ex-AA T4, and one of the things I had in mind when doing my (very basic) set up was the ability to put the crew seat back in with minimal fuss - I reckon it'd take me < 30min to take out the unit and slot the seat back in. Problem would be having somewhere to store the unit/seat when not in use.

All that said - in your position I'd prob get something like a SWB Transit with a crew seat - with any luck it'd come with the side windows in - get it boarded/insulated/carpeted. Reason is if you go for a transit type rather than transporter, a man of < 5' 9" can sleep across it - every thing gets loads simpler if you don't need to pull a bed out every time.

[Paul B]

Nik:

wouldn't fancy the big estate option myself if it was to be home for one week a month, but if you do it'd be by far the cheapest option.

As others have said, seating 4 is the big stumbling block - crash tested rock and rollers are ££.

I'm not sure you really 'need' to worry about crash tested rock and rollers. I talked to a company that were producing these after just gaining the certification, the only thing that changed was the price as they're massively over-designed. However, I'm not a parent.

I wouldn't want to live out of a large estate in the UK, rainy days would just be grim. I didn't get on with mine but a Caddy sized vehicle could be an option with some intelligent converting skills?

T4s are great but they seem to hold their value far too well IMO to warrant buying one.

[lagerstarfish]

Citroen C8 ? saw one with curtains in the back which got me thinking

all the passenger seats are easily removable

apparently the 7 seater is more versatile - having 2 separate seats at the back where the 8 seater has a heavy bench

with all the passenger seats lifted out you'd have an OK sleeping/living space - room for a double mattress

with the middle row all in place and the back seats out you would have room for you, 4 coachees and pads/gear

I guess a Renault Espace would do the same

normal car insurance - diesel engines



not a c8, but nearly the same. I think in the c8 the passenger seats fold down to a table, which would be useful

http://citroensynergie.wordpress.com/category/customise/

[nik at work]

Cheers for all the suggestions people, very useful information. I think that, despite the people carrier car option being tempting, I will have to go for something that is a bit more "camper-van-ey" as number one son is SYKED for camper action and would be disappointed with an estate car. Also I will be working while "dossing" in it in the UK so could do with a bit of extra space to adequately allow me to do my beauty regime/yoga/pilates. But I'll have a look around and see what I can find. Anyway cheers for the thoughts, I'll keep an eye on the thread so if anybody has any further pitfalls or ideas I'll all ears (well eyes I suppose...).

[lagerstarfish]

is he just SYKED! or is he in fact SUPER SYKED!  ?

[ben]

I'm not sure you really 'need' to worry about crash tested rock and rollers. I talked to a company that were producing these after just gaining the certification, the only thing that changed was the price as they're massively over-designed. However, I'm not a parent.

Paul - But there's a big difference between a company that was making something 'crash testable' and then just charging more after the certification (which they need to because of the £££ involved in doing the tests) and the el cheapo ones on ebay for £200-300,  I definitely wouldn't drive around with my kids strapped into one of those..

I had a 'smart bed' fitted (before they changed the design slightly to go thro crash testing), it's very robust, a smooth operator and I can't fault it really.  Plus they fit it so you know it's attached correctly!

My vote would be a VW or maybe a Vivaro or similar

[sammo]

How many miles will you be doing in it once you're on the mainland?

We've got two vans in the family and both meet some of your requirements, but neither are perfect. The first is a VW T25 High Top fitted out by Westfalia:




It's nearly 30 years old and cost just under 6k a few years ago. It has four seat belts and the interior layout is great: you can just about sleep four adults at a push, it's fine for two adults and two kids and for just two adults it's pretty luxurious. My partner and I have done several extended trips away in it very comfortably and we use it year-round in Scotland for winter climbing trips etc. Even in the dankest weather it's pretty cosy. Something like this would fit your budget and tick all the comfort options, but the downsides are that:

• It's 30 years old, so it needs regular work to keep it going. If you lack the time or the inclination to do this yourself, keeping it running can be pretty expensive.
• The fuel economy is horrendous - about 25 mpg 
• Travel is stately, but slow. 50-60 mph is comfortable; 70 is pushing it.

If you're planning to come back to the mainland, drive a short distance and then sleep for the week, then something like this could be ideal. If you're going to be driving tens of thousands of miles in it each year then the fuel/maintenance costs and general slowness might get to you. Obviously more modern equivalents are available, but unless you find a real bargain they're likely to be beyond your budget. As mentioned above, some of the Transit conversions look really good and they tend to be cheaper than their VW counterparts.

Our other van is an ex-Post Office Vauxhall Combo Crew, which we use as a family car. I was never a great fan of Vauxhalls, but the design of this is great: five proper seats with loads of space, drives more-or-less like a car and returns 50-55 mpg on long journeys. We bought an 08 plate with 35k miles on it for about 4k, and although it's clearly been thrashed by the postie it's been mechanically sound so far.

The best thing about it is that the rear seats fold completely flat to create a proper load area, without having to mess about removing seats etc. We've built a sleeping platform that folds up in the back and hinges out to create a 6'5" double bed:




This seems to work pretty well and we can both sleep in it comfortably. With the back seats folded down and the bed folded away you can also sit cross-legged in the back and use the bed as a table for cooking on when it's raining. With the bed removed and one of the rear seats down we can just about get four people and four bikes in it too, which is handy.

In terms of comfort, the T25 wins hands down though: I don't think I'd fancy living in the Vauxhall for one week out of every four, whereas the VW really is like a home away from home.

Just some thoughts. Good luck with whatever you decide to go for!

[Duncan Disorderly]

There's a T5 for sale around your budget on the other channel Nik - done a fair few miles mind but the engines are good for 500K so as long as it's been well kept and serviced (cam belt changed etc.) then I'd not discount it...

They are money pits though..... I'm now contemplating spending another £200 on a bike rack for mine after just being fleeced for a full service ... Still count it as the best thing I've ever bought tho! (the van not the service;-)

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=550711


:D

[SA Chris]

Looks great, but I would be surprised if that bed was crash tested or even a metal frame. Worth asking though.

[Duma]

Says metal framed in the description. Seatbelts too. V doubtful it's crash tested tho. Could always have the kids up front and make the other half ride in the back...
Looks pretty good I'd say.

[tj]

A quick scan of the T4 forum will reveal rock and roll bed safety to be a proverbial  ...

I definitely think the rear seating/bed set-up is worthy of a fair bit of thought, and is the one thing that I now wish (as a new dad) that we'd spent a bit more on in our van. We did get a steel-framed bed (not pull/crash-tested) but we've never been fully happy with the seat belts. They don't position very well on adults, and because of the height of the seat, the company who did the fit couldn't change this. On another note, head-rests are also worthy of consideration. A lot of RnR beds don't have them. I'd certainly hate to be in an RTA without a head rest...

I suspect our RnR bed is *probably* strong enough, I'm just not quite happy enough with it now I'll be putting my kid in it.

I spoke to one of the guys from Smartbeds a couple of days ago. He said they purposely overbuilt their model that gets a pull-test ticket as they didn't want to run the risk of it failing the test. Their other model isn't pull-tested, but *looks* well-engineered. The guys who run the company claim to have a background in fabrication/mech eng. He said that in the test apparently it's like going 30 mph and then coming to a dead-stop. The forces that would be applied to a human body would be a 20 G deceleration and he also mentioned an equivalent loading of 1500 Kg on the torso.  I don't know if these numbers stack up, but I do wonder that although the RnR bed might be able to withstand these loads, if they'd be scooping your liquified remains off the back seat...

Then, you've got the argument over how applicable pull-testing on a rig is compared to a van (a la Bebb beds)...

Overall, I don't know how good/applicable the actual pull test is to a real-life scenario. I suppose it boils down to what you feel comfortable transporting your family/friends in. 

[SA Chris]

Says metal framed in the description. Seatbelts too. V doubtful it's crash tested tho.

Missed that. RnR beds aren't crash tested, and lap belt not sufficient for safely restraining binlids.

Could always have the kids up front and make the other half ride in the back...

At least their map reading skills are probably a bit better! Second thoughts, get a satnav.

[SA Chris]

I definitely think the rear seating/bed set-up is worthy of a fair bit of thought, and is the one thing that I now wish (as a new dad) that we'd spent a bit more on in our van.

Me too. We had a wooden RnR bed at first and kid 1 rode up front with us. With imminent arrival of kid 2 we bit the bullet and got a RiB bed for our (read her) peace of mind. I'm glad we did not only safety but for the added bonus that they fold out longer than the RnR bed, so my feet don't hang out over the end esp in winter.

[Paul B]

I'm not sure you really 'need' to worry about crash tested rock and rollers. I talked to a company that were producing these after just gaining the certification, the only thing that changed was the price as they're massively over-designed. However, I'm not a parent.

Paul - But there's a big difference between a company that was making something 'crash testable' and then just charging more after the certification...

I'm not wholly convinced. I watched some of these guys work/weld and there was a fair dose of red eye on everyone involved. Not only that, when fitting something to my van they came very close to sinking a huge screw through the petrol tank. This is one of the 'reputable' bed manufacturers that I see recommended all the time.

I understand the crash testing costs £££ and hence the end cost goes up. What I was trying to stress is the primary design stage seems to consist of simply over-designing the bed rather than anything else so that they won't need to repeat the expensive process again (which seems to have been confirmed above).

As I said I'm not a parent, if I were I'd likely just stump up the cash. However, consider all of the other items in the van that may or may not be properly fitted and the damage your home-fit ikea masterpiece might do, or the kitchen worktop that ends at mid-back level behind the drivers seat  .

[gme]

Anyone got experience of changing the camping gaz bottle in there can over to propane. Do you just need a different regulator.
In Norway and can't get camping Gaz anywhere. Wasn't aware of this so didn't bring a spare.

[nathan wind]

I use Propane in the winter (Butane not being that good when things are round 0) and just switch regulators. Worth carrying one of each, especially as Propane is harder to find in France, Swissy etc.

[tj]

Me too. We had a wooden RnR bed at first and kid 1 rode up front with us. With imminent arrival of kid 2 we bit the bullet and got a RiB bed for our (read her) peace of mind. I'm glad we did not only safety but for the added bonus that they fold out longer than the RnR bed, so my feet don't hang out over the end esp in winter.

I'm giving a RIB bed a bit of serious consideration... How did you get it fitted? I'm looking in to reputable fitters in Leeds area (and beyond).

I do also agree with Paul B. No point having a bomb-proof bed if other bits are far more likely to cause problems in a crash. Looks like I'm gonna have to have a bit of a look at all the other fittings. Oh, and most importantly learn to drive a bit more sedately on occasions (although I'm *fairly* chilled nowadays)...

[SA Chris]

Got ours done by Jerba in North Berwick near Edinburgh, probably not ideal for you! As you say unless it's fitted by a certified and competent installer there's not much point in spending the cash. Other stuff flying around is a valid point, we try and pack as much away in cupboards as possible, but there's always things on the floor when we are travelling any distance, but this holds true for any vehicle and "potential projectile" hazards. Doesn't mean you mustn't try reduce risks to ALARP though.