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Keen Roof - 8B (Read 44962 times)

Houdini

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#50 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 11:46:57 am
art my arse. :spank:

Up yours Granddad!   ;)

webbo

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#51 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 12:04:07 pm

Houdini

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#52 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 12:09:06 pm

webbo

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#53 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 12:12:02 pm
i've had wheels and handle fitted to my pad so i can use that as a zimmer.

Houdini

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#54 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 12:22:26 pm
Smart!

May I suggest you shove this...



...up your ass to stop yourself falling over when you're queuing to get this:









Greencar

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#55 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 12:22:52 pm
Well done James, bon effort on keen roof. Keep your chin up and don't listen to the non sensical green eyed pricks that try and dis your line. Be proud. The rest of us are of us are grinning with you.  :thumbsup:  :dance1:

webbo

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#56 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 12:40:00 pm
Smart!

May I suggest you shove this...



...up your ass to stop yourself falling over when you're queuing to get this:



as i'm one of those superannuated nhs employees with special pension rights.i'll be well retired before i need a pension book. :great:








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#57 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 01:01:24 pm
Well done James, bon effort on keen roof. Keep your chin up and don't listen to the non sensical green eyed pricks that try and dis your line. Be proud. The rest of us are of us are grinning with you.  :thumbsup:  :dance1:

ha ha. non sensical green eyed pricks. Very good. Perhaps it's more a case of a lack of understanding from people driving green cars.

dobbin

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#58 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 01:06:42 pm
Rupert, Stu - small guys, big brains. You talk a lot of sense!

I too, love everyone involved on this thread and am concerned to see Rich saying things like 'liked climbing' and 'dont particularly care about climbing anymore' - thats a real shame, I hope you come back fella.

I dont understand why you didnt claim your problem in the first place. If you felt it inconsequential then why are we arguing about it? To retro claim it following someone elses ascent makes you look bitter.

James has looked at the line of the climbing and followed it back to the lowest possible starting point. This neither invalidates your ascent or makes his any better. Rupert is on the money - you have the first ascent of the stand, James has the sitter.

Greencar - you really have missed the point. Thanks for your contribution.

Greencar

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#59 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 02:08:40 pm
i have not missed the point. james has made the first ascent of a problem at raven tor. And as a witness of this ascent, it was very impressive and deserves recognition. Rich has come online claiming he did it first (minus the starting moves), but doesn't care anyway as he no longer cares about climbing, which i agree is a shame, because he is very good and an inspiration to others. But in doing this he has appeared imho to be as bitter as lemon or quote 'a little miffed'. To then attempt to downgrade it, seemed to me as being non sensical in a very controversial way.
My reply was not aimed at any of the other people posting, they all made alot of sense, especially bonjoy, ru and dobbin.
Its a shame to see friends battling. If it meant so much to Rich (does he or does he not care? I am confused by his replies) then he should have put his hand up when it mattered. He did not. As james said: you snooze you loose.

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#60 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 03:34:10 pm
Cor blimey. What a pullava!

I'm not going to take sides or give any explanation for this (I think they've all been exercised) it just feels right in some rather odd circumstances. Here's my suggestion:

The problems is named "Keen roof" and the history books note (she does love a little controversey) both variants and asscentionists and the ruccus it caused on a little thing called the tinternet.

dave

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#61 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 05:17:11 pm
whats that about superman?

Dave Westlake

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#62 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 05:21:07 pm
I dont know the people involved, have never been to raven tor, and dont climb 8b - but one thing i can confirm, having read the previous discussion, is that 'Buoux 8c' comes across EXTREMELY BADLY  :thumbsdown: in his internet posts

Anyone would think climbing is a competitive sport!

Matt

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#63 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 06:43:27 pm
Or the plural 'Keen roofs' (SS).

Hopefully, rich gets back to being keen as from the sound of it as it would be a sad loss of talent.

Huffy

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#64 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 07:01:00 pm
This post has nothing to do with the 'Keen Roof' politics, i wouldn't know where to start and am not particularly interested either. Hats off to the two young guns though, they're both beasts.
This post is just to stick up for Rich a bit here with regards to the last comment. I personally like the fact that rich is open, honest and brave enough to say what he thinks. There is a real bitchiness in bouldering and people on this site (who i suspect dont know the guy) are often hypersensitive to his comments, reacting like News of the world readers...he said...she said bullshit scandal e.g.

this is no longer your place to make cocky comments about how much better you think you are than the rest of the world.
or;
he has appeared imho to be as bitter as lemon or quote 'a little miffed'. To then attempt to downgrade it, seemed to me as being non sensical in a very controversial way.
***I Can't be arsed qualifying Rich's reason for suggesting 8a+, please read over his post***

It's basically way too easy to 'manufacture' controversy by taking his comments out of context. Anyone can do it and you dont need to know anything about the characters you're having a pop at either. It is for this reason that i respect Rich, as he tollerates the clucking hen club and continues to express his honest opinion.

Good luck in States James, sure you'll tear it up out there!

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#65 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 07:21:03 pm
Nice one Huffy, I've been of the same opinion throughout this post........... and have been awaiting the inevitable slagging off of Rich!

Only met Rich a few times, but he instantly strikes you as an honest and passionate guy, for which I respect, even if you don't agree with his opinions! Its all too easy for people to slag people off and start bitchiness on the net......something which seems to happen a lot on here!
However anyone who has met Rich will know he's just as likely too share his opinion face to face as he is over the forums........something which I doubt some people on here would do!......

Anyway Good effort guys with the problem.


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#66 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 08:06:35 pm
Huffy, you are a wise man.

james

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#67 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 08:16:47 pm
You just cant help yourself Richard, can you?  It upsets me when people attempt to be-little others, i really cant understand the motivation.  I thought that you were going to try to be a little bit more supportive to other people in future, but I guess a leopard can't change its spots.

People can claim whatever they like, be they shit or good, eliminate or non, link up or line. As time passes, the climbing public will deem some lines worthy of remembering and others not.  Only time will tell as to whether Keen roof will be remembered, I think it will, but I will have to wait and see.

For people that don't know ravens tor, or don't quite understand where Keen and Ben's roof go, here is a little diagram.  Please excuse the poor quality, as has allready been mentioned, I am in America and so away from my computer.  The yellow line is Ben's, the red is Keen, the black circle is where Richard says he started from. 



In my opinion it would be a very contrived line to start as for Ben's roof, you can see the almost 180 degree turn you would have to make.  Also, as bonjoy said, there is a kneebar (no-hands) rest at the 180 degree turn so you could hang out there for as long as you liked and recover before starting Keen.  If you eliminated the kneebar to make it harder then it would be just that, a harder eliminate

For me to put time in to doing a new problem, it has to be a good, non eliminate, obvious line.  I chose to start Keen roof from the left because this is the place that best fitted the above specification.  The Ben's start would be contrived, eliminate and unobvious.  The roof start whilst being non eliminate is a little unobvious and misses out on some really good moves (not 2 5c/6a moves like Richard incorrectly stated, but a short V6?) that do tire you out and make the whole problem harder, and Richard, before you make another throw away comment about how good climbers "don't get tired on v6's" just like the comment you made to Tyler earlier about how good climbers should not have to worry about their tendons on this problem...
 
As for Tyler's comment on the pocket, i really cannot see how this pocket can be of a dangerous nature for a climber of his caliber- the hold is positive, not sharp and fairly deep allowing at least 2 fingers to be used.  I believe there really is nothing to worry about when attempting this problem.
please save your breath.  I know you think everyone else is worthless compared to yourself, Ben and Malcolm, and that using your feet is something to be frowned upon etc etc, but other peoples opinions and feelings are important too. 


Please don't think that I am saying that the Ben's start is silly, or that Ben's should start from where I started Keen as this could not be further from the truth.  As you can see from the diagram, that is the obvious start, for Ben's roof, which creates a nice sweeping line around the left wall of the cave.  However, Keen roof does not follow the wall but goes through the roof (essentially nothing to do with Ben's roof) and so the Ben's start is not suitable (if we are talking about original lines and not link-ups).

I would also like to clear up a few points from earlier on in this thread:

From a previous discussion at this problem, James was aware that I had climbed this problem from the stated place and also agreed that the line is 8a+ from here.

We talked briefly about the moves after I had spent 2 sessions trying it.  Never did you mention that you had linked the problem from the undercuts in the roof, only that you had done the move to the lip.  I said I thought the problem would be 8a+ from the back (my first guess at the difficulty after 2 days trying it, after spending a further 7 or 8 days on it, I felt it was harder than 8a+ and so offered 8b) and you said you thought it would be 8b.  Never did we agree on 8a+ from the undercuts.

I'm sure some may say (myself included) that James line detracts from where i stated- adding two easy moves of no significance on polished rock,  just for the sake of starting on my arse- which incidentally you can also do from where i started.

You are entitled to your opinion, however I feel I must point out that unless you have either grown, or have had arm extensions, you could not start from the mid-roof undercuts, sat on the floor.  The first point you can start sitting is where I started.  I am taller than you and have longer arms and I found it a stretch to reach even these holds.


I presume that the above mistakes were just that.  I know it is easy to get carried away when you feel strongly about a subject, but you should be carefull about what you write.  It is easy for people to get the wrong end of the stick, mistakes get confused for lies, people get a reputation they may not deserve and it is a slippery slope from there.

It would seem that the holds which James started from are simply a different set of random holds from the ones Rich climbed from. The fact that they form a possible sit start in some instances would make a difference. However, in a low cave, where there are many points for a sit start which one does one choose for a logical sit start..

As I have said a few times, the starting holds for Keen are not at all random.  They are an obvious pair of jugs, and the first point in which you can sit start in the cave.  You are right about there being many points where you could sit start or more precisely, sit on the floor and touch rock with your hands.  You could even squirm in to the back and lie down if it took your fancy. So, "which one does one chose for a logical sit start.." How about the one that has two obvious jugs, and is the first point that your bottom can touch the floor???  Makes sense to me!

One last point, if people have an opinion, and feel strongly enough to say it then please don't try to make light of it by adding a silly jokey comment at the end.  What you say effects others, and it is up to you to decide if what you are going to say/write is worth it.  If you feel you need some kind of get out clause, is it really worth writing in the first place?  We saw it here a few months ago with this thread http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,5620.0.html and we have seen it again today.

I think Doylo sums it up nicely

what a load of shite, with mates like that who needs enemies

Exactly

Thankyou to the majority of people on here for your support.  It is much appreciated.  The park is beautiful and the climbing is ace. 
See you all soon.

James

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#68 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:09:30 pm
Just read though what you have written briefly, it seams you have completely missed my point, which was certainly not to 'be little' your achievements as you put it. I can somewhat remember helping you and your climbing several times throughout the years with advice and such. Surely not the actions of someone who doesn't want you to succeed?

Anyway, since your in America, it would be a waste of time to explain my motives more clearly, especially in this forum. if i see you when im back, if your interested i will try to then.

Hope America goes well- really.

ps, just two notes to clear up. I was wrong in stating that one can start sitting from the pod in the roof, it is definitely a crouching start- not lies, just my poor memory and shortness of time.

pps, 
Quote
As for Tyler's comment on the pocket, i really cannot see how this pocket can be of a dangerous nature for a climber of his caliber- the hold is positive, not sharp and fairly deep allowing at least 2 fingers to be used.  I believe there really is nothing to worry about when attempting this problem.


This is not a dig whatsoever. Just merely stating that as a hard problem, this contains good positive holds that would be unlikely to injure a world class climber, especially in comparison to alot of other problems in this grade range.

Anyway, wont fuel this anymore by allowing people with to much time on there hands to take out of context what is written. If you have a problem, you know what to do.

With regards to the lines, Im past caring, this has been the final nail for me. Do what you want, believe what you want, il let you get on with your sport how you like it.

Adios


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#69 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:53:50 pm
this is dave parry's two penneth right here muthafuckers:

I've spent time in this cave trying bens roof over the last 2 summers and while resting have often walked around feeling holds in the roof etc with wonder. Now before this whole thing came to light I would have said the obvious line would have been starting as for ben's roof and then heading straight out somehow, instead of heading to the left wall or heading right to the 7c thing. Now whether or not that is possible any time soon or not only time will tell. I seem to remember there being holds that aught to have allowed this at at some high grade in the future.

Failing that ideal line, it sounds to me that keen's line is pretty logical. If rich had claimed his higher-start problem earlier people would probably have said "good effort, but why not start fully on the back/left wall instead of in limbo?" If i was rich i would have been tempted to at least take something like what james did at least as a fallback tick, afterall its a straight out line. To start in bens roof, come onto the sidewall, then out again although longer doesn't seem as logical to me personally, it more like a traverse-in problem. it would be like claiming staminahumps without first declaring powerhumps as its own problem. And lets not forget the kneebar in the corner is good enough to take both hands off and have a drink, eat a pastie, have a wank etc etc. like someone said doing this eliminating the rest would be a more locals eliminate type thing of minor interest - and even if this was your final goal you'd be daft not to do it with the rest as a fallback tick - oversight on rich's part maybe. maybe a lesson for future - always take the fallback tick. you never know when it might come in handy.

As a case in point, didn't everyone recon the sitter to the dominator only added 2 5b moves, but not only did it notch the grade up, but it wasn't like everyone thought it was shit, pointless, trivial or desrespectful to the original.

I hope someone can yank the iron out of the fire here and we can all hold hands and be buddies again. I can't think that rich is meaning to come across in the manner he clearly has on this thread, its certainly not the manner i'd expect him to be in real life, nor how I have found him to be. lets remember the internet is a bad place for this type of shit.

peace and fucking, believe.

Doylo

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#70 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 15, 2006, 05:59:04 pm

Doylo

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#71 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 15, 2006, 06:05:20 pm
Personally i think James started from a decent place, sitting on his arse on two obvious holds. IMO the start of bens roof is pretty shit and unobvious. Can see why Rich is a bit miffed cos he obviously could of got the first ascent, not that his CV needs bolstering any more. Don't know fuck all about the grade.  Don't wanna say much more cos i'm good mates with both of them. Bring on the Leadmill!

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#72 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 15, 2006, 06:18:35 pm
Same again Barman.

Doylo

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#73 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 15, 2006, 08:53:22 pm
Have been talking with Rich whilst he was kicking shit out of his punchbag and have given this thread a thorough reading. Basically i think the only thing he said which was kinda out of order was this:

I cannot see how James line can be classed as a first ascent.

I questioned him about this comment and he said that he agreed it was written unclearly and was adamant that this wasn't what he thought or what he believes.
As for the rest of it he basically just wanted to clarify that he did the standing start of this problem first and that in his opinion its not 8b.  When you speak to him you realise that its not sour grapes and he's not bitter. He just wants the history of the tor to be recorded properly.The internet is the wrong place for this sort of debate. When i first read a couple of his points i though they were a bit uncalled for perhaps but when you actually speak to the guy and realise exactly the point he is trying to get across. For example the bit about the hold being sharp comes across i think as bit of a dig at Ty, in reality it was just Rich stating that he doesn't think that the pocket is particularly dangerous for a problem of this difficulty. He felt worried that a comment like this could deter other beats from trying the line. And thats why you shouldn't read too much into what people write on the net, cos if i can read it wrong and i know the guy then everyone else is bound too aswell. Hopefully this will be the last rant on this thread. Have it in the US James and tell Si if your getting sick of the mash potato.

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#74 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 15, 2006, 10:31:30 pm
Then maybe Rich should make a post to ratify this assertion Chris...

 

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