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Keen Roof - 8B (Read 44828 times)

Buoux 8C

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#25 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 11, 2006, 04:01:22 pm
Horses for courses i suppose. For me it made sense to add a harder, direct ending to Bens roof, hence starting at the beginning of Bens roof. I can see your point as to why one would start from where you have. I suppose i am a little miffed that had i thought to start from here, i dare say i would have made the first ascent. But it's to late now, and the least of my worries anymore.

Needless to say wherever you started, you conqurered two very good hard moves, which is the whole meat of the problem.

Good luck in Colorado. Cheers Rich.

james

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#26 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 11, 2006, 05:49:37 pm
You snooze you loose ;)  Probably still time for a repeat before the seepage starts too much.

Heard about recent goings on from bungle, hope it is not too bad!

Colorado here I come :wave:

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#27 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 11, 2006, 07:40:53 pm
To start as bens roof, you would firstly, have to know where the legit start to bens roof is as the holds are not at all obvious :shrug: (out of intrest, what are the official starting holds, I have never really known).

generally a move lower than whatever you try.

i started it off the big lefthand sloper, and a little RH pinch at the same height, then up into the good backhand pocket thing (the ones that's always wet).

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#28 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 12, 2006, 12:55:26 pm
A fine effort indeed James and an ever increasing rarity of finding a new line at the Tor. Nice to add your own bit of history to a place so rich in it.

As for lines well so what. You were the one who bothered to put the effort in and therefore that's the line. If someone wants to start it from Ben's roof it'll always be a variation on your line. What it does show is how blinkered people are (myself included). I would never thought of starting it where you did (Having thrown a few laps on the roof I'm magentically drawn to the holds Dave so correctly pointed out) and what you have is a more pleasant better flowing line that more importantly you did. The other variation can wait.

There are still 2 R-L traverse to go starting from either the 1st chimes jug or starting under the roof at the crimpy 7c start. Both at least 8a+.

I'm sure Tyler had tried Keen Roof previously for a session or 2 so it must rank pretty hard to his recent RMNP sends. As for grades it's nice to see a mighty 8b added to the Tor and something for me to tinker on in my latter years. Would be interesting to see how it ranks next to Hubble as I'd put that at at least a full grade harder. Not bad for 1990! Maybe James has been on it.

Andy

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#29 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 12, 2006, 09:33:18 pm
Saturday was my first session on the roof.
it is a good bloc, and is difficult also.
i think the line james chose was the obvious one, and for someone to add another start, i think would take away from Keen roof.
it is strong effort indeed, and a proud first ascent.
hopefully this winter will hold much more in the department of hard new first ascents......

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#30 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 12, 2006, 09:44:27 pm
Jeez, you just don't get this shit on Cocktalk! Four giants of Uk bouldering, verbally sparring whilst we listen agog.

cofe

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#31 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 12, 2006, 09:59:03 pm
true: tyler, james, dave and johnny brown giving it verbal beans. to die for.

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#32 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 13, 2006, 07:34:53 am
Not to mention you Cofe.  We're just not worthy. :bow:

Buoux 8C

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#33 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 13, 2006, 11:54:27 pm
Whilst completing meaningless tasks at work today, I gave a lot of consideration to the above topic. After thinking it over I feel compelled to follow up my previous comments, in which I held back a little with the fear of sounding bitter or bringing a controversial nature to what is a good effort by James. However, in doing so important history of this problem has been held back to.

I cannot see how James line can be classed as a first ascent. I climbed this line, sans the first 2 moves (English 5c/6a) several times, but considered it only progress on what was to be the full line from the back of the cave starting as per bens roof, hence no first ascent claim.

Obviously James considers his line to be the most worthy way to start the problem, yet this adds pretty much nothing to what had already been climbed previously- starting from the two good holds and climbing out.

Therefore, as discussed throughout this thread, James line should be considered a variation on what I climbed, except I feel my line is a non-line and somewhat incomplete without a starting at the beginning of Bens roof.

Obviously opinions differentiate, yet surely one cannot claim a first ascent, nor remove significance of a previously climbed line by adding 2 moves of relative ease.
From a previous discussion at this problem, James was aware that I had climbed this problem from the stated place and also agreed that the line is 8a+ from here.
I feel it's important that just because I didn't shout about, nor publicize my incomplete ascent, there is still no reason for it to be brushed under the carpet until superseded- which it is yet to be.

Im sorry for bringing as downer on a somewhat impressive effort. However this line, although attempted very little, meant a great deal to me and I am not happy for it to be bought into disrepute.

Matt

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#34 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 07:30:31 am
Subject: Re: Buoux Roof SS - 8B  ;)

Bonjoy

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#35 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 08:42:46 am
Buoux - You can't re-write the rule book because it doesn't suite you. James climbed the problem from a logical start position, by your own admission you didn't. If you wanted to get the FA of the line you should have added these two extra moves, just as a holding measure while you did what you considered the full line. James' choice of start position is entirely logical as it is the first point on the problem from which you can start sitting, therefore it is the non eliminate sit start, I see no case to claim it is a non-problem. I'm sure if you could repeatedly do the hard bit you could have linked the extra bit, but you didn't. It's like doing a prob with a dab, you may be clearly able to do the prob, but you dabbed therefore no tick, harsh but fair, thems the rules, same for everyone. You could claim this higher start, or you could add the Ben's Roof start. As an aside adding this start would render the problem an eliminate for a second reason i.e. there is a kneebar rest at the junction, which I assume you would be eliminating, which is another good reason for where Keen Roof starts.
 What do you mean by the problem being 'b[r]ought into disrepute'? I can see how you may be pissed off at the mistake you have made, but what has James done wrong exactly?

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#36 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 08:47:58 am
I  might as well add my 2 cents worth... But firstly, good effort to Rich and James, who have both climbed a difficult section of rock.

It would seem that the holds which James started from are simply a different set of random holds from the ones Rich climbed from. The fact that they form a possible sit start in some instances would make a difference. However, in a low cave, where there are many points for a sit start which one does one choose for a logical sit start. Ben's Roof is the original problem through that section of rock, and that start is down on the right. Why? I don't know, bit historically that was the challenge, and the one we all accept when we try Ben's Roof. Nobody would think of starting where James has started and climb to the end of Ben's Roof and then claim this as a problem. That would be a subset of the problem Ben's Roof and so not a problem in it's own right. I thought the new problem would be a different and much more difficult end to Ben's Roof. If Rich climbed the difficult section many times, but then failed to do or try it from the start of Ben's Roof, then he doesn't have a first ascent, but it should be noted that he has climbed that piece of rock. The first ascent should come with the full line. Given any problem, is it permissible to add 2 moves and then claim a first ascent? I think we are all agreed this is a bit silly. Well what about when someone adds a sit start to any given problem, we then give them credit for the FA of the SS to an existing problem. BUT, what happens when the problem is in a low cave, where there exist many sit starts, which one takes precedence. We wouldn't want to end up with a position like in Hollow Mountain cave where you can pretty much start anywhere, climb any direction, and finish anywhere then take the V-grade for what you did and have a problem (clearly I have exaggerated this slightly but you get my point). To me that is not a particularly good situation. Surely it has to be the original starting point of Ben's Roof. This would be a valid and historically respectful start (I think).

I think that if that piece of rock had been virgin this would be a different situation, but we already have Ben's roof. Whatever the reasons for starting where that starts, we are now in a position that we have some history by which to judge ourselves. We test ourselves against those who came before.

What has been climbed has been climbed and it's interesting to note how two different climbers have approached it. Rich climbed it without 2 moves, James addded 2 moves (supposedly english 5c/6a), and now I look forward for another mutant to start from the beginning and finish at the end.

Please note, these ideas were formed in the realm of meta climbing so have no direct relation to anything real. My apologies.

Bonjoy

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#37 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:07:00 am
Quote
However, in a low cave, where there are many points for a sit start which one does one choose for a logical sit start.
It's up to the first ascentionist, i.e. the first person to climb it from any of said sit starts. This is how it's been on all other probs for as long as I can remember. What's different about this case?
Quote
Ben's Roof is the original problem through that section of rock, and that start is down on the right. Why?
Simple, because that's where Ben chose to start. The fact it follows the line of the rest of Ben's roof and is consistent in difficulty (ie pretty easy relatively speaking) is beside the point.
Quote
is it permissible to add 2 moves and then claim a first ascent?
Of course it is if said two moves lands you at an entirely logical place to start the problem, as opposed to a none-start.
Quote
We wouldn't want to end up with a position like in Hollow Mountain cave where you can pretty much start anywhere, climb any direction, and finish anywhere then take the V-grade for what you did and have a problem (clearly I have exaggerated this slightly but you get my point).
Have you been to HMC? The lines are pretty well defined, it is a fair sized cave. Certainly a shit load more well defined and logical than for instance Parisella's, a place which is full of what you might consider arbitary start and finish points, all (or most) of which are accepted as problems by UK boulder's without a second thought.
Quote
historically respectful
Sorry, that is meaningless nonesense (I think). This is a sport not a religion.
From my perspective what you and Rich are saying represents an outdated view on bouldering, a 90s view, when eliminates and rules on probs where the norm. You only have to look at the sort of rationalistation of old rule based problems in the Peak and North Wales guides and at the Bowderstone to see that this is not the way it works these days.

Ru

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#38 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:29:58 am
Lets face it, bouldering has lots of arbitrary starts anyway. The meat of this problem is the hard section from the pod in the roof. The introductory moves add a logical start and perhaps a grade, I don't know I've not tried it. The pod in the middle of the roof is something of a logical start point anyway, not in terms of the "line", but in terms of the standard of the climbing - start at the big jug at the start of the difficulties and climb into the light. I would say that Rich got the FA of the stand up line, James got the FA of the left hand sitter, the RH sitter awaits an ascent. The fact that James' is the most logical start perhaps doesn't prevent the other variations from existing. It would seem to me that if Rich had claimed the line from a stand up from the beginning this discussion wouldn't be taking place. Bouldering history should, afterall, document what was done, not what was claimed.

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#39 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:31:47 am
This is a sport

Never ever have I disagreed more with an opinion of yours Bonjoy.

This is not a sport.  There are no rules, no ref, no opponent, no point scoring system.  This is an art, dammit.  You say tmaytaz...


Keen Roof is a stunning effort:  FUCKING STUNNING.  You whiners stop pissing on his fire!

Buoux 8C

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#40 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:35:22 am
Sorry John, But i disagree entirely. The position james started is no more logical from where i started. They both formed a start, low down just before the hard section of climbing, however, the only difference being that i found this incomplete because i intended to start at bens roof and James didn't. The climbing is no different, James just starting a little lower than myself, more for the point of adding a 'true' sit start than anything else (which i tend to avoid).

The reason i didn't link the extra bit of climbing, was in hindsight because i found it irrelevant. Why add two moves of ease to a hard two move boulder problem, just for the sake if it. I am certain that the line james has climbed is in no way harder from the line i climbed. It's not about re-writing the rule book as you suggest. I dont particuarly care about climbing anymore, and if it where at any other crag i wouldnt give a shit, yet raven tor has been the forefront of my motivationa and inspiration thourought my career so it's rightly important that Raven tors history is correct and still as inspiring for other generations as it was for me.
Having keen roof as a first ascent in not correct- keen roof is a variation on what i climbed, adding a further move to start  a little bit more sitting. What if i where to go back and climb keen roof from one hold lower to James, would that make his problem irrelevant- i didn't think so.

I cannot see the logic in using a comparison of a dab, to this scenario. A dab would make any ascent void, a clean ascent of which i did would not be considered void in anyones eyes? surely?

Im not claiming that james has done anything wrong, i like the guy and consider him a friend. Yet I also liked climbing and considered that a firend, it's important that i look out for both interests.

At the end of the day, from where i climbed the line is as logical as where James climbed it from. Just because james may be more popular in the climbing front than myself dosent make his ascent any more valid. My line starts in the obvious large holds, James starts a move lower- adds no difficulty to the grade, nor any better climbing to the line. Im sure some may say (myself included) that james line detracts from where i stated- adding two easy moves of no significance on polished rock,  just for the sake of starting on my arse- which incidentally you can also do from where i started.

It's clear this will fall on death ears, like everything else that goes on in climbing. A Shame really- but such is life.

If you still feel strongly, give me a shout when you see me next. il look forward to discussing it with you further.

Stu Littlefair

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#41 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 09:55:19 am
Lordy - what a shitstorm  :o Maybe we should remember that we're all mates here? Often on the internet it's hard to judge the tone of peoples responses because a 50 word missive just doesn't contain the nuances that proper conversation does. I'm sure if James and Rich were having this discussion in the pub then there would be no bad feelings stirred up at all...

The whole situation seems a little similar to the Ace and the Joker (with the exception that the Ace makes a big leap in difficulty, whereas James' start probably doesn't). Those problems can coexist, so I'm sure we can come to some arrangement here too. How about Ru and Pantontino state in their tablets-of-magazine/stone that Rich first climbed the problem from the obvious stand-up start, and then James added a logical sit-start in the back of the cave. Neutral, uncontroversial and historically correct. Both clearly get large heapings of wad points and then Rupert, Andy and Myself can get massively injured trying for a repeat. Deal?

Of course, Rich's start will need a name too - how about "Angry Youth"? (No offence meant Rich....)

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#42 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 10:06:16 am
Just to add, I have equal animosity towards everyone on these boards ;) . I am friends with both James and Rich and know how much climbing means (or did mean) to them. What Rich is saying, I think, is that this boulder problem is 8A+ regardless where you start (Rich or James' start) but the start from Ben's Roof will be harder again and a good thing to climb.

I guess the difficult section of rock was first conquered by Rich and then James. They have both climbed something damn hard. That's the point. Isn't it?

I love you all. Don't hate the playa, hate the game. And remember, I'm packing more heat than an oven door.

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#43 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 10:18:06 am
art my arse. :spank:

Bonjoy

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#44 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 10:21:50 am
 Stu is bang on about nuances being lost on the interweb. There's no one in this discussion I don't consider a friend, please take what I say in that context.
 Rich - Just to clarify, IMO where you started is a valid, if less satisfactory, starting position. Like Ru said, this is only an issue because you chose not to claim it at the time, instead bringing it up retrospectively after James already had.
 The dab thing was to illustrate the point that being clearly good enough to do something (i.e linking the two extra moves) is not the same as actually doing something. Not to suggest that your ascent was invalid per se.
 My argument as far as I see it is based entirely on the application of the usual 'rules' of climbing to this ascent, the person/s involved and their relative popularity doesn't come into it at all.
 My three reasons for being impertinent enough to argue about things way out of my league are that I disagreed with the point you are making, secondly that James is away in the states and therefore may not have chance to reply for some time and thirdly I love a good debate especially when i'm confident i'm right  ;).
 I'm really sad to hear you aren't interested in climbing anymore. Sack off the gloves your true home is on the rock.

Houdini - I retract my glib reference to climbing as a sport. It was lazy. I was just trying to cut through what I saw as excessive reverence. Maybe change it to, climbing is a drug not a religion.

Edited for spelling mistakes only
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:56:05 am by Bonjoy »

Bonjoy

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#45 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 10:41:10 am
What Rich is saying, I think, is that this boulder problem is 8A+ regardless where you start (Rich or James' start)
That would be the downgrade prior to the repeat then?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:52:10 am by Bonjoy »

Buoux 8C

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#46 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 10:51:20 am
Just a quick response, as although Raven Tor is just about as important as it gets, it's not worth getting sacked for.

I agree with Stuart-Bonjoy- Ru and Keith in parts. But what I certainly agree with is that there is or was no hard feelings from my part. I would just like to use a quote from the seemingly wise midget, which I feel hits the nail right on the head.

Quote
Often on the internet it's hard to judge the tone of peoples responses because a 50 word missive just doesn't contain the nuances that proper conversation does. I'm sure if James and Rich were having this discussion in the pub then there would be no bad feelings stirred up at all...

I understand Bonjoy that you feel the need to speak for James, I was unaware that he had already left and hope that there are no bad feelings on his part.

Quote
What Rich is saying, I think, is that this boulder problem is 8A+ regardless where you start (Rich or James' start) but the start from Ben's Roof will be harder again and a good thing to climb.


Wasn't particularly going down that route, but you would be right in suggesting it. I climbed the line without the use of foot-hooks (eliminate I know), because I felt the moves where so much better and more motivational- something I was lacking hugely at the time. Without hooks it is 8B- with the use of hooks, I dare say this problem is a different caliber and more likely bottom end 8a+ ball park- Being significantly easier than Hubble and Superman, which are 8B and 8A+ respectively. Bear in mind that I am the only person to have climbed all three, and can only put the problems in retro spectacle order of difficulty. Of which the roof is the easiest-, but possibly the best.

Good night ladies xx :hug:


Buoux 8C

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#47 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 10:55:39 am
I do not need to repeat an extra two easy moves to know wether or not it is 8B. Compared with the two problems stated above it will be 8A+ starting at either place. It may be 8B from bens roof, but then again, probably not.

James already commented to me that he thought 8a+, so i dont understand the logic in him saying 8B?

But thats up to him obviously and he's more than entitled to his opinion.

Give this prolem 8B and you must upgrade several around it-which i am sure some soft shites will do in the near future. :kiss1:

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#48 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 11:03:52 am
its all good you saying this rich, but really you have not done keen roof and until you have, you have no place stating its grade and difficulty.
although you may have done your random stand start, as much as you wish it did, that really has no relevance.
you do not climb anymore and this is no longer your place to make cocky comments about how much better you think you are than the rest of the world.

edited to remove abusive remark
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 11:05:49 am by Bonjoy »

Buoux 8C

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#49 Re: Keen Roof - 8B
September 14, 2006, 11:09:29 am
Ha Ha.

i thought i said good night ladies in my last post. Send me a message if you have a problem. It's obvious you really know what you are talking about.

 

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