[Aussiegav]

what is the consenus on projects.
does the cleaner of the line have the right for the first ascent or is it open to all??

[SA Chris]

Bouldering? How can anyone tell if it's been done already? If it's in an area where it needs cleaning, it's obviously rarely visited so it's hard to tell.

[Houdini]

May the best man win, bollox to the rest.

[Sloper]

Yep, followed by a well known senior citizen claiming that he he did the problem back in the day but couldn't be bothered to record it.

[Mike Tyson]

May the best man win, bollox to the rest

Agreed. I must add I have never been in the situation to complete somebodies project, but surely if its in your capabilities to do it, why not? I know it may cross the gentlemens line of conduct, but its a blurry line at best.

[account_inactive]

I think it depends on the amount of gardening required.  I cleaned up some new lines in the Grampians that took about half a day of pruning and removale of dead trees.  Was pretty pissed when a certain strong dwarfed Aussie stole one of the better lines.   

I suppose calling things 'the ashes' is a bit overdone by now 

[Bonjoy]

 It depends really. I wouldn't even consider stealing someones project if they had taken me to have a look at something they had spend time and effort hunting out and cleaning, unless they were happy for me to have a go. What kind of friend would that make me? I think it only fair to give people a grace period in which to try and crack a project, especially if it's on a newly found boulder or area. This grace period is very finite though and it's plain selfish for someone to expect people to leave a classic problem untouched for an extended period. The bottom line being that while no climber can claim 'ownership' of a project, it's the decent thing to give people a sporting chance on things they've found.
 I've had a fair few projects 'nicked' in the past, but it hasn't really bothered me because that's just bouldering. I'm generally happy for others to try 'my' project when i'm at the crag. I do get mildly pissed off if people then turn up at the crag the next day to try and get the prob before me. If i'm really keen to do a projcet myself i'll keep it quite. Once the cat's out of the bag I don't expect more than a day or so's grace. I'm very impatient with projects and usually if I can't do it in a couple of trips i'll round up some talent to try and get the thing done anyway.
 Sometimes there's more fun to be had by introducing a project to a pysched gang at the crag and joining in the competitive free for all, rather than spending ages on a prob on your own and then maybe not even see the concept realised. A case in point last season being Converted 7b/7b+ at Cratcliff. I had spotted the line ages back, but it looked scary enough to merit a good few pads and spotters. So next time I was there with a bunch of people I dragged them over. Loads of pads, loads of psyche, plenty of waddage, everyone trying out different ideas, all keen for the ascent, brilliant fun. Eventually Mawson bagged it and then Moon turned up and got the second ascent. It was a really good session, the sort of social stuff I love bouldering for. I could have kept the thing for myself, turned up with some spare pads, un-wadded spotters and got the thing for myself, but I seriously doubt it would have made a better experience. I've got a bunch of ideas I'm hoping to drag the baying mob over to this winter, can't wait.

[SA Chris]

Good Words Bonjoy. Also if the place is worthy of attention and needs a good clean, better to get a team on the job and make light work, then all can enjoy the benefits, especially if the probs are high enough to require shoulder rides for getting them cleaned.

The project groove I cleaned down last autum in Glen Clova is still going begging if anyone is ever in the area (unlikely I know). It's way too rich for my blood.

[Pantontino]

Nicking projects from other people is a pretty shortsighted strategy; if you live by the sword then you will die by it too. Sooner or later you'll have one of your carefully nurtured projects stolen, and nobody will ever share information with you again.

Round our way, there is an unspoken gentlemen's agreement that people should be left in peace to complete their projects. Often there has been considerable efforts made to sort the project line out, for example landings may have been flattened or re-built. This can involve a considerable amount of work and that should be respected I think. Also if you have the creative vision to spot something before everyone else I think that should also be respected.

That said, I've opened up long term projects in the past, partly because I knew I'd gone well past the reasonable 'close season', and partly because I thought that the added element of competition and the injection of new ideas might actually get me up the bloody thing.

I suppose there are well known projects which nobody 'owns' - these are usually desperate or just plain dangerous.

[Houdini]

The spirit of friendly competition has got to be the ace-est way a problem can be made.  That's the context of original post.

The best way to get over someone doing it before you is to consider that they're free to consider that bit of rock their project too (especially older stuff) Parthian Shot is a great historic example.  I can see how it cheeses some people, I wouldn't encourage it so to speak but if a visiting climber found the line you had cleaned, tried, left chalk on and climbed it, and you weren't aquainted, I wouldn't worry, just concentrate on doing it too.

[Aussiegav]

dylan,
the short dwarfed aussie wasn't paul westwood by any chance.
i spent 2 years in the gramps.opening up new problems.i had such a great time finding new areas and problems. where about are your new lines?

[Nibile]

i think its up to the cleaner to decide whether the line is free for all or not.
the rest is just a matter of respect and intelligence.

[Houdini]

i think its up to the cleaner to decide whether the line is free for all or not.

You can clean it.  You can polish it.  You can mount it on a pilth of marble, but you still won't and never will own it.  All boulders (ie non-bolted lines) are free for all, by definition.

Anything else is little more than pissing on territory with a This is mine, find your own, I've bagsied this till I deign to ascend it.  Carve it yourself did you?  Hewn from the mother lode just for thee?

It's a level of possessiveness that has no place in outdoor pursuits, it only encourages more of the same.  Live by the sword my 'arris!

May the best man win.


PS I'm not singling you out here, Nibile, just your notions.

[Nibile]

of course the cleaner doesnt own the line but, in my opinion, for cleaning it, and putting some effort in it, he has a sort of right to try the line without vultures flying around. thats why i said its a matter of respect: other climbers can o cannot respect his request.
the cleaner has no possession, but could say lemme try it in peace. then if the boulder is clearly out of his reach, others could say ok weakmo, make room for the big guns.

i think its a little thank for someone who spent time cleaning a line instead of going bouldering. we all know cleaning a problem is a pain in the ass...
where i climb, for example, the cleaner, not the first ascensionist, names the problem.

[Houdini]

The cleaner names it?!


That's what I'm talking about when I say Possessiveness.  The cleaner can bog off and make me a brew!


I wouldn't steal projects, but I wouldn't bleat if it happened to me.  Recently cleaned up a fab 7C nose/arete in Finland only to watch some pale hone snap it up hours later.  Couldn't be happier.  It's still there for me, next time, and the next.

[SA Chris]

The cleaner names it?!

You don't mean Harvey Keitel?

[Falling Down]

I had a vision of me dragging our cleaner (yes, we have a cleaner.. ) out to the crag in her blue house-coat and slippers...

'Now then Linda.. what d'ya reckon of this line then.. get your thinking cap on 'cos it needs a name and make it a good one!"

[Idol eyes]

Thorn Crag, Aidie Jebb, No hard feelings...

[account_inactive]

dylan,
the short dwarfed aussie wasn't paul westwood by any chance.
i spent 2 years in the gramps.opening up new problems.i had such a great time finding new areas and problems. where about are your new lines?

I wouldn't dare steal a westwood problem.  Tales of broken legs abound.  Anyways he's to old to steal mine

Nah, it was my mate Aaron.  The area was called Andersons, lots and lots of lines to go still with not many people wanting to invest time putting them up.  

The first problem I cleaned was a superb 3 star highball arete.  Loads of people had looked at it and thought it would be V1 and not bothered.  It took about 5 mins to clean and mark some of the holds on the slopey top out.  Me and a bunch of people tried it and I eventually did it first.  The stolen problem took 2 sessions to clean and was not a great line, but a great problem, I'm only bitter

[Nibile]

I had a vision of me dragging our cleaner (yes, we have a cleaner.. ) out to the crag in her blue house-coat and slippers...

'Now then Linda.. what d'ya reckon of this line then.. get your thinking cap on 'cos it needs a name and make it a good one!"

 

[Nibile]

That's what I'm talking about when I say Possessiveness. 

here, its just a gentlemen agreement. i know everywhere its different.

[Houdini]

...gentlemens' agreement.

What?  Even in Sicily? 

[Aussiegav]

dylan,
you still in aust? where??
i did  a really good problem at  anderson's called 'wailing wall'. not had a repeat to my knowledge. albeit, 6 yrs ago. to memory it was behind the 45 degree boulder...
there's loads of untouched acres in the valley left of the gallery as you look up at it. walk from the buandik carpark though...

[lego]

There's a nice problem I found deep in the woods at the beginning of the year. It took a few hours of cleaning, and by the end of the session I had got all the moves, but didn't put them together (at the time I was planning to be back a day later…). Unfortunatley I couldn't get back for a few weeks, and thus in my mind this became an open project…

Normally I would back there every day until I had it, and during this period I would be pissed if someone sent it before me. However, not being able to get there, it seemed like fair game. I cleaned it yes, but I also had my chance, and I can't make the world wait forever…

PS my first post on UKB, so hi all!

[soapy]

hi lego



yes, i agree, it's public domain really; so you don't quite get the satisfaction of owning it, never mind

[lego]

good pic - i think i know him?

[Greg C]

Thorn Crag, Aidie Jebb, No hard feelings...

Hey, the best man won  . Easy come easy go, there's plenty of rock for everyone.

There's still the prow to the left, I'm sure I'll get that before I die... Jimmy (chinny) Hill.

[Idol eyes]

Er, the click on this comment, to let you in on it, was to praise aid on his ascent. The best man was on holiday...
To steal or not to steal, we do not own the rock, we just borrow it and lend it to our egos. FA's are a great part of climbing, and i feel the more competition the better, when i used to work projects, I used to invite able people to push me harder, Richard Williams used to drive me up the wall, Adam Long, a great inspiration, Aid Jebb totaly burned me of on that route, and even though i can say it hurt like hell when he told me "alright pat, i stole your route!" I admired the talent and his casual attitude to the route. So your comment is a little mis guided and there really is no hard feelings, Wish it was me that did it though, did it not see a repeat recently...
(good luck remapping the lake district by the way!)