[Fiend]

Talking about attempting onsights of routes which are current headpoint testpieces. Say for example at least E8s and E9s. Stuff like, say, Indian Face, Harder Faster, Welcome To The Cruel World, Alchemie etc etc. The specifics don't matter, just that it would be routes beyond what is currently onsighted.

What skills / tactics / strengths would be required by a climber attempting such cutting edge onsights?? What is the exact nature of that challenge and what demands would need to be met??

A few ideas:

One of the main challenges is being able to get sequences right without falling. This could require:

- Huge amount of experience climbing vast amounts of rock, to get sufficient engrams and potential sequences.

- Huge amounts of hanging on strength to be able to hang around and figure out moves.

- High ability to downclimb through unsuccessful sequences to rests / the ground.


Another challenge would be in being very well prepared. This could include:

- Having such hard onsights as a very long term goal and training specifically for their estimated (but unknown) difficulties for years.

- Large amounts of patience to be able to wait until the time is right.

- Learning how to stack all the possible odds in one's favour, analyse conditions, maximise protection, optimise weight carried etc (a scientific approach?)


Then there is the distinct mental challenge of bold - or very dangerous - climbing into the unknown.

- Specific mental training to be able to cope with that challenge. Long term mediation or something similar?

- Being able to climb a lot, lot harder than the actual physical demands, to reduce the physical challenge to a minimum (like how sport climbers / boulderers have often taken their physical prowess into trad climbing).

[Stubbs]

 

Plus lots of sports climbing ability, I reckon lots of just onsight experience on sports routes, rather than lots of hard redpoints.

I think a lot of it comes down to the route though - the ideal candidate would be long and sustained, but with (relatively) good gear, i can't think of any, maybe something down south, how had are those ones in Huntsman's Leap?

[Palomides]

I've already answered you in that other place.

SPLITTER!!

[Houdini]

Watching McCaffity climb is always an education.

And from these experiences I'd say the ability to have a full conversation with the two hemispheres of your brain - whilst climbing - is what will get you to the top.

"Oooh - look at that!  Another hold!  Up here n'all!  Oooh - don't mind if I get me some sidepull action on this honey . . .   What jew reckon, Jim?  Oh I'm with you all the way, Jim.  Me too Jim, go for it!  Okillidokilly, sorry foothold, gotta stand on your head again ...ad infinitum to the top.

[Johnny Brown]

Nothing new in terms of ability or training will be required. What is more likely to give standards a push is a culture/ scene which really values the ascents. At present there is a bit of an attitude that a twenty year-old route can't be that hard and that onsights of them aren't that impressive compared to V15/ 9b. The mags will always value new stuff over repeats.

[Stubbs]

Hmmm. I reckon an onsight of an E9 or especially an E10 would generate a whole lot of media coverage.  It seems to be a running theme on UKC, but i reckon an onsight of Indian Face, Breathless, Parthian Shot etc would be worth at least two full pages of coverage in both of the main rags.

[drdeath]

but only if it was done by Gaz Parry or Steve McClure...

[unclesomebody]

In my opinion it won't be long until an E9 or maybe even E10 is onsighted. As JB says, it's not that we need more ability/training, because there are climbers out there in the rest of europe who are regularly onsighting 8b and flashing 8b+ and 8c. This really is another level to an E9 onsight in my opinion. What it will take is for some euro-wad like ramonet to come over here and try these routes. Thinks like breathless and parthian would be easy onsights for those guys. It's rather naive to think that this country has great climbers in terms of world ability. It might be damaging to the british ego, but I think this is the truth. This is pretty clear to see in terms of what is reported in the mags. There are some really good climbers in this country who are cutting it right now (like Simpson, McClure, Gaskins) and some great up and coming climbers like Tyler Landman. We all check 8a.nu for news and it's pretty obvious that most of the news isn't from british climbers. Until Macleod's new E11 most hard routes were up to about 8b route grade and to me the man who has repeated the most big E-numbers is probably Dave Birkett. I know Birkett is no slouch, and infact he is an amazing climber, but put him next to someone like (for example) Killian Fishburger. Killian is a young guy, but he's flashed 8c, climbed 9a, and he's younger than me!!!  I honestly have no doubt that someone like him would eat up these routes. To what JB says, 20 year old routes aren't that hard compared to V15/9b, that is fact I'm afraid. Maybe you mean scary, but certainly there is nothing 20 years old in this country that could be genuinely said to be hard by todays standards.

It is a little sad that the brit's hold so dear to their hearts these big E-numbers, and think they are so lofty and unnatainable. They really aren't. It's just that we are a small little country with our little bits of rock and our different ethics. Nobody comes here because, well, frankly, if we lived in the south of france (insert anywhere else) would we come back to climb in the lakes??? I know Greg and Nigel will probably say yes, but really, come on...

Anyway, what will be required for truly hard trad onsighting is someone who gives a shit about trad. Someone who cares about climbing semi-hard in dangerous positions. Just remember, back in the day Wolfgang and Kurt Albert were soloing 8a's in the frankenjura, and I'm not talking about 5m, 2 bolt routes. I'm talking break your back/neck type stuff.  Just food for thought.

//peace

ps. i noticed there was in nothing in climb about A Muerte.

[Nigel]

Nobody comes here because, well, frankly, if we lived in the south of france (insert anywhere else) would we come back to climb in the lakes???

Yes, I would.

What it will take is for some euro-wad like ramonet to come over here and try these routes. Thinks like breathless and parthian would be easy onsights for those guys.

They would if they had bolts in. Just because somethings physically "easy" doesn't mean wads are going to walk all over it. Is Ramon gonna be so happy on Breathless when he's onsighting 8a+ on an unfamiliar rocktype about twenty feet above a dodgy peg in a dodgy flake (or whatever it is?). I don't know, but I think its as much naive to think he would as that he wouldn't. In fact, as you allude, its a moot point cos he and other Euros couldn't give a flying one about trad. The only ones who do are out in the mountains putting their waddageness into huge multipitch 8a upwards FA's on big rocks, they couldn't give a shit about onsighting bold single pitch routes, its only us Brits who get off on that. And yes we do lead the world in it, Birkett and MacCleod have both onsighted/flashed E8, which foreigners have?

Granted you may have a point in relation to some grit routes; a Euro is as likely as a Brit to onsight grit E8 or 9 as long as the're mad enough, but that's cos the're all piss anyway isn't it.



In answer to the original post - don't know. Sure we'll find out one day.

[unclesomebody]

Would you really come back Nigel? Really? Given any worldwide location to reside you would still come back??? 

Anyway, I think it all boils down to how far below your limit something is. For example, I am more than happy to onsight solo some easy grade (let's say E1) regardless of it's height, rock type, danger, etc etc. This is because I just know I'm not going to fall off, or at worst I know I can downclimb. For me the question is to ramonet (et al), How hard is 8a+ for them?

I don't know.

moot point. Macleod and Birkett have never climbed harder than sport 8c. Not that I'm saying they have to. But I'm saying it's more likely that a foreigner hasn't onsighted/flashed E8 because they haven't tried, but that Maclead and Birkett haven't climbed 9a because it might just be too hard... who knows...  ??? ??? ???

[jonas]

A few of the spanish überwads are no strangers to hard trad onsights. Edu Marin and some other guy put up a 8a+ new route onsight at Kjerag, Norway. Josune Beaasdfasf did some rater hard-scary onsight on gear in the spanish Pyrenees.

[Nigel]

Would you really come back Nigel? Really? Given any worldwide location to reside you would still come back???

Yeah I'd have to visit my family at Christmas wouldn't I?  

[Fiend]

Interesting post unclemullet.

Definitely makes sense that a very high level of physical ability would be important to have a lot of "reserve" to do "easier" climbing in a bolder situation. However I think that would have to be allied with enough trad experience to be used to: the subtleties of different rocks, the logistics of ropework and placing gear, and pushing oneself in a bold situation.

Just one question about the numbers though: You are talking about people who are regularly onsighting 8b sport routes - how far below that physical limit would be "certain" enough for them to be able to climb it in bold or serious situations? F8a+? F8a? F7c+? I think there might need to be enough of a discrepancy that the harder trad routes wouldn't fall that easily.

Say you've got someone who regularly onsights F8b sport - how well will he fare onsighting Alchemie, F8b + fiddling in gear + huge run-out and big fall on the hard bits?

(Pretty much what Nige was saying)

[Houdini]

1 - I'd rather live and climb in The Lakes than France.  No contest, really.

2 - Even a 200 year old E9 would be more difficult than V15 / 9b as part of it's inherent difficulty would be getting one's head (even a Frenchman's) around the fact that failure may constitute the loss of your entire world; as opposed to being winded by your mat.

3 - And I was under the impression that the exclusively British E number (and the ethics of ascent) has taken root in Italy.  We're not alone in our weirdness, Unc'.

[Ru]

2 - Even a 200 year old E9 would be more difficult than V15 / 9b as part of it's inherent difficulty would be getting one's head (even a Frenchman's) around the fact that failure may constitute the loss of your entire world; as opposed to being winded by your mat.

Classic CT. The consequences of failure have to be weighed against the actual chance of doing so. Otherwise, by that argument, soloing a 200ft VS is more difficult than V15, as the consequences of failure are still death.

Basically I reckon Uncle's on the money with this analysis.

[unclesomebody]

fiend, as an example of my point about these people regularly onsighting 8b routes, just take a look at this;

http://www.8a.nu/cgi-bin/scorecard/show.cgi?view=5386&page=1&max_routes=100000&year_from=all

In my opinion, the chances of onsight success on any given 8a or maybe even 8a+ is probably a lot higher than the chance of failure.

[Houdini]

I refuse to accept that any climber born 200 years from now will face any less a challenge than Dawes did 20 years ago on The Face, if they were wearing 200 year old boots.  I'm assuming it won't get retro-bolted.

No-one is talking about soloing VS's.  Any E9 climber that fell off a VS while soloing ought to be shot in the head, if he were still alive that is.  His crime?  Hubris.

My point is, a successful kosher on-sight of the Indian Face, tomorrow, would be - for me - lightyears, über-leagues ahead in laudability (if that word exists) or "Nice one Mr"-ness than any V22 from 3098 or V17 from 2020. There's something that separates  people who only boulder and those that just Trad.  All things considered, I can't imagine I'll die bouldering.  I fall asleep with a bifter between my lips and die in a duvet-fire.  If all I did was on-sight E9's/10's (assuming I, er, could) I doubt I'd be around too long: ultimately, it'd get me.  Russian Roulette.

There'll come a time when all the advances in performance from the knowledge we have gained from Sports Science about training - will plateau.  Further progress will be restricted by the human body's own limitations.  In 200 years, 2000 years, we will not evolve to become better climbers as climbing is far from our primary function for us to lean in that direction as a species.

The advances will be psychological.  The E9, 10, 11 on-sighters of the future will have tapped into something deeper, more profound:  the ability to keep a babbling, paranoid, doubtful brain under lock and key just long enough to get to the top.  Physically it won't bother them, and why should it?  They've already ticked 9a.  A path.  All conducted in (almost) complete safety.

It's natural for the press to deal largely with the issues of the day.  That's what the press do. I don't blame them for it; they're in the News Game, you either care or you don't.

Routes like The Indian Face or Hellish don't lose their potency overnight, or in 20 years:  they're immortal.

Climbing needs it's mavericks, and they're already out there - maybe they don't climb yet - but they're out there.  When they're ready to play their hand and blow us all away by setting new standards is up to them.  It's happened in the past and it will happen again.

[james]

I am more than happy to onsight solo some easy grade (let's say E1) regardless of it's height, rock type, danger, etc etc. This is because I just know I'm not going to fall off, or at worst I know I can downclimb.

I for one can think of some pretty spicey E1's and some spicey VS's come to think of it 

[ding dong]

I am more than happy to onsight solo some easy grade (let's say E1) regardless of it's height, rock type, danger, etc etc. This is because I just know I'm not going to fall off, or at worst I know I can downclimb.

I for one can think of some pretty spicey E1's and some spicey VS's come to think of it 

never really accepted how people can say its 'not possible' for them to fall off(an easy route).
i fell down the stairs the other day, i was suprised, cant remember that ever happening before, but was uninjured.

[Johnny Brown]

I think Uncle's points are reasonably valid, but he's missed a couple of things. Firstly, most really bold onsights are done by youths. Once your past 25 the balls just aren't as big and, perhaps more inportantly, other things in life start to take precedence. Most of the eurowads are older than that.

Second, unfamiliar rock types. Most (all?) of these hard sport onsights are done on limestone and most (all?) are overhanging. Thats a very different style from most grit or Indian face for example. So I'd agree some uberwads might have a good chance on Impact day or Breathless, or even some of the crimpy grit stuff at Curbar. But on a lot of stuff its really not gonna be their forte, so they won't actually be climbing ten grades below their limit. I saw a fair few 9a climbers on grit on the roctrip, and some, especially the younger guys, were embarrassing. The older guys who had travelled a bit and had experience of wider rock types did Ok, but I refer you to point 1...

All the young foreigners who have come over in recent years and done well on grit have not been primarily limestone sport climbers. Jvan-wad - granite, Wolf - sandstone, Benham - sandstone?, Christian around at the mo - sandstone.

So yes, put Edu or Ramon on a hard but reasonably protected E9 and I'd expect them to do well. But we all knew that already. I wouldn't expect such a strong performance on Meshuga or Angel's share 

[Ru]

To be fair on the spanish lads, they've mostly all done hard stuff on granite too: they've got 8b grantite slabs over there amongst lots of other nastyness. I wouldn't write them off too fast.

[dave]

In my opinion it won't be long until an E9 or maybe even E10 is onsighted. As JB says, it's not that we need more ability/training, because there are climbers out there in the rest of europe who are regularly onsighting 8b and flashing 8b+ and 8c. This really is another level to an E9 onsight in my opinion. What it will take is for some euro-wad like ramonet to come over here and try these routes. Thinks like breathless and parthian would be easy onsights for those guys.

People have been saying this (but with the grades exchanged for whatever the current top level was) for like as long as i've been climbing (8-9 years) and probably for 20 or 30 years before that, and its never really happened yet. I have no doubt that in 20 years time uncle-junior will be sat in an bunker 200m under the earths surface in a city built there to escape the post-apocalyptic nuclear winter, posting on some virtual reality cyber-forum in a foil suit about how the 12year old ramone schwarzenegger-winphrey from the island of california is an uber wad, flashes 10c and redpoints 11b and would eat peices of shit like our E18s for breakfast, and it'll be about as likely to happen then as it is now, i.e. not very likely. For all the reasons JB sez. for a kickoff you can guarentee if they come over in the right season for good nick that very hards routes require it'll be guaranteed to piss it down for the whole fortnight.

[JR]

I am more than happy to onsight solo some easy grade (let's say E1) regardless of it's height, rock type, danger, etc etc. This is because I just know I'm not going to fall off, or at worst I know I can downclimb.

I for one can think of some pretty spicey E1's and some spicey VS's come to think of it 

beat me to it...

i concur with JB on this one.  i honor thee (call it +1/-1 after that dreadful derision of kula shaker earlier)

[Bubba]

I have no doubt that in 20 years time uncle-junior will be sat in an bunker 200m under the earths surface in a city built there to escape the post-apocalyptic nuclear winter, posting on some virtual reality cyber-forum in a foil suit about how the 12year old ramone schwarzenegger-winphrey from the island of california is an uber wad, flashes 10c and redpoints 11b and would eat peices of shit like our E18s for breakfast, and it'll be about as likely to happen then as it is now, i.e. not very likely.

Witness Dave's shocking view of the future of uk climbing - you heard it here first folks...

[Falling Down]

.... it'll be guaranteed to piss it down for the whole fortnight.

 

[Fiend]

Good posts, glad I posted it here as well as UKC .

So the thoughts seem to vary from such ascents requiring a wise head and loads of experienced, to requiring a young gutsy hotshot, to requiring euro-style sport fitness.

Well, to put it in perspective, consider the following routes, what would be required for them and who would be most likely to onsight them:

Welcome To The Cruel World - hard brutal climbing with good protection.

Alchemie - hard climbing with a long runout about good protection.

Harder Faster - not so hard climbing but obtuse rock and possibly a very serious fall.

Indian Face - easy climbing but totally committing and fatal.

???

[Houdini]

Well - I've had a little more time to think about this extremely interesting question.

I think it was JBrown who noted just how important a healthy "scene" is - in terms of the competition than can arise when evenly matched arrogant and talented young men & women are crammed into the same jar.

A handful of years ago, before they began to sort their lives out a little more using the time-honoured formula of injecting a little love into their personal equation......

                                                                                     ("What is Love?   The most natural painkiller there is."    William S Burroughs)

                                                       .......and found themselves girlfriends;  I can name two friends friends from the N. Wales scene who were intensely, intensely competetive with each other.  This ferocitiy of competition between them spurred them into a dangerous game of one-upmanship.  Ultimately resulting in some extremely worthy on-sights.

Again it was JB who noted just how one's priorities in life change when we begin to grow up a bit, settle down, find other avenues of expression - or that our balls shrink with time:  Bang on the money.

Twenty-something years ago; when N. Wales was still a new router's paradise, climbers flocked to Wales in their droves to take advantage of the wealth of unclimbed rock at Gogarth and in the Dinorwig Quarries.  One look in either of those early guidebooks will show you just how important a time this was for development.  Competition for the 'plum lines' was fierce.  That has now faded as the available lines have mostly been climbed.   People moved away, found other areas to climb in.  It's a shame that we have such little unclimbed rock left; because when it was still there, competition was rife amongst the hones - and great things happened.

This desire:  The need to be 'the one' to do it first - to stamp one's authority on the rock and in the process immortalise oneself, may not be so strong ever again: fresh rock can drive a man to madness.  And it's just not there anymore.

It's also extremely difficult in these times to actually - truly - onsight.  There is just so much information available to us all that genuine onsights are becoming increasingly hard to perform.